Thoughts from someone who has been playing since 2013 (beta)

FabresFour

I would like to clarify something before this text begins. I love ESO. I truly love ESO. I’ve been playing this game since the beta, and I am completely in love with all the work Zenimax has put into Tamriel. This isn’t a negative critique. It’s a plea from a fan. A fan who loves this game enough to have been working, since 2018, on an unofficial translation into my language. Oh, it’s also important to make clear that this is a purely personal opinion. (This text may contain spoilers of all content released so far.)

You know, when I first played ESO in 2013 during the beta and then embarked on Tamriel in 2014, I recognized the world they were trying to portray. It was the same world I had fallen in love with back in 2007 with Oblivion—Tamriel was colorful, but sad. People suffered, and died, and struggled with various situations just to survive. Tamriel is not, by essence, a happy place.

And I don’t say this lightly. I mean, one of the names the continent has is "Arena," and that’s not by chance. People live in a gigantic arena, constantly fighting for their lives. The most beautiful places are affected by the darkest shadows, and the poorest places are subject to corruption by nature, by evil.

The original game portrays this very well. All the original maps show how hard it is to live in Tamriel. There’s suffering everywhere, an ode to terror. And it’s not just because of Molag Bal’s invasion, which does play a key role in it, but also because of the choices of every individual. The evil of the Montclairs in Rivenspire, the envy of the Hound in Valenwood, the greed of the Dominion in the Argonian swamps. People keep stumbling over themselves and their choices.

However, as time went by, I started to see this image disappearing from Tamriel, and more and more the content seemed not to reflect that anymore. Tamriel seems happier, lighter. Problems are solved easily. Our hero no longer has to deal with loss as they did before— I mean, we often had to make tough choices. Sometimes, innocent people died because of what we said, the decisions we made. Good people faced bad outcomes because that’s the reality of the world we live in, in Nirn.

As the years went by, Tamriel, in MY PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE, became a caricature of itself. Evil was not well-represented, and the villain always lost somehow. There were few real consequences to our actions—and I’m not even talking about choice and consequence in questing, but in narrative impact. I mean, two years of story, Necrom and Gold Road. What consequences did the player face?

I remember when I said it had been years since I felt a sense of defeat playing ESO, and that this demotivated me. A player told me that Necrom ends with a big defeat… And yes, it is a defeat, but a defeat that means nothing. It doesn’t result in anything. What’s the point of being defeated if, to deal with it, you just keep reading dialogues in the next part without making the slightest effort until you reach the end? Without any real loss—no beloved NPC who stops talking to you, or anything like that.

I mean, the last time I felt any urgency in ESO was with Markarth, when Arana, an incredible NPC, died, and I decided I would keep playing just to avenge her. And then, suddenly, the story brings her back… Why? Why throw away the impact, the suffering?

You know, I’ve been feeling unmotivated with ESO’s story, with ESO’s maps, because it seems like there’s no longer any attempt to surprise us. I feel like there’s a lack of courage to create something new, truly new.

For years now, the maps have been the same. They follow a formula, and you know exactly what to expect. You know the average number of quests to expect, you know how many delves and public dungeons will be there, you know how many trials, you know… everything. There’s no mystery anymore. Everything is always handed on a silver platter to the players.

Am I the only one who thinks this is harmful? You know, what made me fall in love with ESO is that it’s a game of exploration. It’s walking through Tamriel. It’s meeting characters, discovering stories and adventures.

When we know EXACTLY what to expect… doesn’t that only leave room for disappointment? I mean, how can you be surprised if everything you expected was delivered? If nothing new was tried? A different number of delves, more or fewer public dungeons, truly different mechanics when exploring the world. More puzzles, whether they’re about movement, jumping, or logic.

More and more, playing ESO is following an arrow and pressing E.

And that hurts me a lot because this is a game I love. It’s a story I love. And I feel like the formula Zenimax has found will only lead this game to exhaustion. Today, you may not be tired of this, but what about five years from now, when you’ve done the same things, walked and pressed E, in settings so different from each other that there’s no way to be surprised anymore? I feel like I’ve been feeling this way since Blackwood, you know?

I don’t know: sometimes, releasing an incomplete story could be cool. Sometimes, letting a villain achieve their goal and having it last for more than... I don’t know, just a few months... could also be cool. Imagine if Sai Sahan, a villain I found amazing, had lasted for years? Bringing back NDAs for the PTS could also be nice to protect content before it’s released. I don’t know, there must be solutions, and I’d like them to be discussed. Do you guys have any ideas about this?

I know this text is a mix of different things and I just felt like I needed to say this somewhere. It's kind of sad to do quests in a game I love and feel like it's more of the same—walking and pressing E, with no attempt to try something new. You know? I feel like there are more different mechanics in the base game quests than in any of the recent expansions., and I don’t want to be misunderstood. Again, I love this game, I love ZOS’s work, and I have full confidence that they can improve. But I’d like to see it really happen, you know? I’d like to see Tamriel through the same eyes I did between 2014 and 2020.

FabresFour

For some reason I typed "Sai Sahan" in the text, but it was supposed to be Rada al-Saran LOL

Syldras

Thank you! I strongly agree with you. I myself have written several posts like yours in the past fews months and some other users have done the same. Posts criticising ESO's writing for having become more shallow, caricature-ish or not really serious anymore are posted increasingly often in this forum. I really hope ZOS pays attention to this.

Ashnarug

Thank you for posting your opinion. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

FabresFour

Syldras wrote: »

Thank you! I strongly agree with you. I myself have written several posts like yours in the past fews months and some other users have done the same. Posts criticising ESO's writing for having become more shallow, caricature-ish or not really serious anymore are posted increasingly often in this forum. I really hope ZOS pays attention to this.

You know, what really saddens me, besides this more cartoonish version of the world, is how the company sticks to a formula and follows it for the rest of its life in all its content.

I mean, the events: The events are always in the same format—now, the Halloween event is going to offer something different for the first time, and I have to admit that it excites me a little. But I would like to see this more consistently, you know?

For example, a different 10th-anniversary event that I would find interesting: Imagine that to celebrate the 10th anniversary, Molag Bal makes a new push into Tamriel. The expansion maps somehow receive a Dark Anchor event where a truly colossal Dark Anchor (a rework of the Dark Anchor concept) appears in each of the chapter maps released so far. To defeat this Dark Anchor, players must destroy chains scattered at different points on the map (more or less like the Ithelia invasion), or as shown in the original ESO cinematic trailer. In the end, Molag Bal summons really powerful creatures that require many players to defeat—like a Flesh Atronach with the strength of a dragon. Or even a dragon that is somehow being controlled by Chaotic Creatia. A Vampire Lord that is truly powerful.

I don't know. An anniversary event, for me, would be a celebration of the original game based on the content released so far. So making this mix of things could be interesting, you know? What I mean is not necessarily this event happening, but something like it: Something different. Something new.

The events in ESO nowadays boil down to: Go to place X and do what you’ve already done 1,000 times before, just now to receive reward Y!

With the new Halloween quest and the fight against Hollowjack, something new is being proposed, and it’s MORE OR LESS in this style that I would like to see the game receive content.

colossalvoids

I cannot agree more on this all, felt the same way since around Greymoor/Blackwood and probably my last genuine enjoyment came from Murkmire dlc to be exact. Last three xpacks took me exceedingly high amount of time to finish, but that's because exhaustion and each new story presenting me with more of the same, in a bad way.

I'd love to have some high hopes but even BGS lost their last talent with Kuhlmann departure which was hinted to be more of a layoff rather. So there's not many people left to have this stuff in check or to refer to at least.

barney2525

what do people expect? I notice that pretty much most of the complainers haven't gone through the process of creating entire worlds of their own.

Players Demand new content. So Zos has to Invent brand new ideas, never before been thought of, to develop a Zone, and a culture, and a history that still meshes with what has been established, with basic stereotypes for the people they will use to populate this addition to the world, and create enemies and conflict on a full country scale in the history. THEN they have to fill in all the minor details, unique aspects that are New and never seen before, that identify this zone as being Unique from everything else that has come before.

And THEN they have to devise a story of suitably epic proportions, that will last and be competitive for the most advanced 3k+ CP characters, for several hours of game time.

And then they will have to read all the complaints about everything they did wrong.

And the worst thing that could happen, would be to create such an expansion, and have it be absolutely Great and Fun.

Because Everything they did After that would be criticized in comparison.

fred4

FabresFour wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Thank you! I strongly agree with you. I myself have written several posts like yours in the past fews months and some other users have done the same. Posts criticising ESO's writing for having become more shallow, caricature-ish or not really serious anymore are posted increasingly often in this forum. I really hope ZOS pays attention to this.

You know, what really saddens me, besides this more cartoonish version of the world, is how the company sticks to a formula and follows it for the rest of its life in all its content.

I mean, the events: The events are always in the same format—now, the Halloween event is going to offer something different for the first time, and I have to admit that it excites me a little. But I would like to see this more consistently, you know?

For example, a different 10th-anniversary event that I would find interesting: Imagine that to celebrate the 10th anniversary, Molag Bal makes a new push into Tamriel. The expansion maps somehow receive a Dark Anchor event where a truly colossal Dark Anchor (a rework of the Dark Anchor concept) appears in each of the chapter maps released so far. To defeat this Dark Anchor, players must destroy chains scattered at different points on the map (more or less like the Ithelia invasion), or as shown in the original ESO cinematic trailer. In the end, Molag Bal summons really powerful creatures that require many players to defeat—like a Flesh Atronach with the strength of a dragon. Or even a dragon that is somehow being controlled by Chaotic Creatia. A Vampire Lord that is truly powerful.

I don't know. An anniversary event, for me, would be a celebration of the original game based on the content released so far. So making this mix of things could be interesting, you know? What I mean is not necessarily this event happening, but something like it: Something different. Something new.

The events in ESO nowadays boil down to: Go to place X and do what you’ve already done 1,000 times before, just now to receive reward Y!

With the new Halloween quest and the fight against Hollowjack, something new is being proposed, and it’s MORE OR LESS in this style that I would like to see the game receive content.

As far as the combat being engaging and players working together, I know such world events are renowned in ... GW2 I think. I don't know how it works so well in that game (as people tell me). In ESO the skill curve is great. For the record, I am an endgame player and I believe this is a good thing. Combat depth in PvE and PvP, that there continues to be a payoff for investing your time in it, is the only reason I'm still here after 9 years. But that does mean it's virtually impossible to construct something that is equally satisfying to most players from a combat point of view.

Being an endgame MMO player has stripped away the story-telling for me. The focus has become the guilds and the other players. Defeating something the strength of, say, a Sunspire dragon has long been reduced to the bare mechanics. Your focus is on the other 11 players on Discord at that point, the real-life relationships. You are consumed by that, and only that, because that's how you get things done.

In linear single-player games there's pacing. Story-telling usually goes hand in hand with you learning some new combat mechanic. It's the combination of the two, which keeps you engaged. In open world RPG games, it tends to be about combat variety instead. Your choice. Still, you will tire of that eventually. In MMOs the progression is that the content becomes so difficult, players have to become really proficient at the combat. Everything else, the world, the stories, fades into the background, as you're engaged with the other players instead. What sets are they running? Who is going to do what mechanic, and so on.

I would say introducing mechanics, making anchors super large or hard, is fair, but is already the bread and butter of the game. If you played the game long enough and you're tired of it, then that won't move the needle. If it's doable, it's doable. If it's borderline, it will put too many people off. We've been there with vDSR difficulty and ZOS have justifiably stepped back from that brink. Not that vDSR isn't doable, even in a PUG. In fact it's one of the more enjoyable trials at my level, simply because it is difficult. It's just that, statistically, considering the playerbase, I believe ZOS and some players have condeded it was a bit much for the average player.

What would be new is actually good story-telling. New blood among the writers and possibly the voice actors. More natural, ambiguous dialogue. Characters not simply declaring who they are and whether they are good or evil. Avoiding endless exposition drivel. No life stories the moment you meet. Show, don't tell. Characters with actual personalities and unclear motivations. The problem with good writing is that it's hard and has never been Zenimax / Bethesda's primary focus. That writer's attitude, the one from the above video, is ultimately a self-fulfilling prophecy. He thinks stories don't matter much, but when you take that as a licence to slack off, then it's no surprise this is the case.

FabresFour

barney2525 wrote: »

what do people expect? I notice that pretty much most of the complainers haven't gone through the process of creating entire worlds of their own.

Players Demand new content. So Zos has to Invent brand new ideas, never before been thought of, to develop a Zone, and a culture, and a history that still meshes with what has been established, with basic stereotypes for the people they will use to populate this addition to the world, and create enemies and conflict on a full country scale in the history. THEN they have to fill in all the minor details, unique aspects that are New and never seen before, that identify this zone as being Unique from everything else that has come before.

And THEN they have to devise a story of suitably epic proportions, that will last and be competitive for the most advanced 3k+ CP characters, for several hours of game time.

And then they will have to read all the complaints about everything they did wrong.

And the worst thing that could happen, would be to create such an expansion, and have it be absolutely Great and Fun.

Because Everything they did After that would be criticized in comparison.

Excuse me? "Pretty much most of the complainers haven't gone through the process of creating entire worlds of their own."

Does that mean that because I haven’t created my own world, even though I spent my money and, more importantly, invested my time in something I love, I don’t have the right to “complain”?

Look, my complaint isn’t without foundation. It’s based on how the game used to be vs. how it is now. I’m not asking them to reinvent the wheel, just to maintain the standard and quality they previously established.

Sorry, but that’s an extremely harmful view for a community, where individuals with negative opinions about a product they love have no right to complain, even if, in their opinion, they see the quality of what they love declining. This kind of defense is what makes a product stagnate and stop improving.

If the company receives money from its players for content, the players have every right to expect that this content meets a certain standard of quality.

You act as if they’re doing us a favor, but delivering a product is the bare minimum, and it’s up to the players to speak up if that minimum hasn’t satisfied them.

Listen, I dedicate more time to ESO than the VAST majority of players. I am so loyal to the game that I work, daily, on a translation for an entire language. Translating this game is not a simple task, it’s not something that takes little time. It’s exhausting — nearly 500,000 lines of dialogue, almost 10 million words.

Someone who dedicates so much time, love, and money to a product has EVERY right to point out the problems when they notice them.

Syldras

fred4 wrote: »

That said, I basically always thought the strength of Elder Scrolls games was the art design, the large open worlds, with story-telling ranking below that.

Still, the first ESO chapters were more engaging than the later ones. I'd be happy enough if the writing quality would get back to the way it was in the base game and first few chapters and story dlcs. Especially Morrowind - CWC - Summerset were perfect.

fred4 wrote: »

New blood among the writers and possibly the voice actors.

I found the releases when ESO had their first and their second lore master (who also wrote dialogues and lorebooks) quite decent. I'm not saying who is in charge now was bad at writing - I don't know him, after all - , but it's obvious that something has changed since the earlier years, be it changes in the writing team in general, a different focus in writing, or deliberately having picked up a different style, whatever. The only thing I can say is that I very much prefered the way it was in the earlier years of ESO.

barney2525 wrote: »

I notice that pretty much most of the complainers haven't gone through the process of creating entire worlds of their own.

I think no one here complains about the background lore. When it comes to that, TES is absolutely awesome, especially when it comes to the scope and the way the different cultures have been built. The big question is what is made with this existing background lore.

And rather simple dialogues with dozens of repetitions, much too obvious "surprises" in the stories, cliché characters that neatly fit a black and white scheme, and generally emotionally not exactly engaging quests (like world-ending threats that never really feel like threats, and in the end, there's always the happy ending party anyway) isn't really it. How about writing something daring and new for once? More morally grey characters, actual surprises, decisions that feel dire and situations that feel dangerous because the outcome isn't 100% clear beforehand?

Elvenheart

Sigh…I guess I’m the only player that loved the story of a forgotten Daedric prince and found the character of Ithelia to be very interesting. 😢

FabresFour

Elvenheart wrote: »

Sigh…I guess I’m the only player that loved the story of a forgotten Daedric prince and found the character of Ithelia to be very interesting. 😢

The idea of being a forgotten Daedric Prince is really cool, and the character Ithelia is also interesting. The problem is everything else, lol

Syldras

Elvenheart wrote: »

Sigh…I guess I’m the only player that loved the story of a forgotten Daedric prince and found the character of Ithelia to be very interesting. 😢

I don't even mind the story about a forgotten Daedric Prince, and some parts of the story were nicely written. But in my opinion they could have made so much more of it, wouldn't they have clung so much to the usual formula.

The prologue looked promising, giving us a a short look at different societies that changed from daedra worship to a new belief through lore books, leading to a big question: How might these societies have developed if this change would have not taken place? Ithelia's reappearance could have shown us exactly these worlds through quests of the main story.

Imagine travelling through a portal to a Morrowind where there's no Tribunal, where the Chimer never became Dunmer, and with maybe a completely different outcome of the Battle of Red Mountain, leading to a different demography. We could have encountered Akaviri as well as Dwemer. And they could have done the same with more portals, leading to a variety of places. It wouldn't even have been neccessary to build entirely new maps, ZOS could have just altered known places - the more familiar the players are with them the better, so we really notice the differences - and show how they might look if history had been different. There's so much they could have done with that, as there are lots of singular events that caused a huge change in Tamriel's history.

Varana

I agree with a lot of points, even though I generally am not a fan of doom and gloom and life sucks in RPGs. Constant suffering is just exhausting, even when just witnessing it or dealing with it as an outsider.

Still, Arana was a major turning point for me as well. It's expected that the hero saves the day in the end, that's how most of fantasy works, it's the basic premise of every quest under whatever sun. And sometimes, NPC deaths are gratuitously splattered across the questline just to demonstrate how dangerous it is (without reloading or respawning at wayshrine), or to add an artificial gravity to the experience that the player doesn't actually feel. In this case, though, the sacrifice and death was comparatively well-written and justified, and it had an emotional impact. Having that erased not because it was earned but because the writer pulled a god out of their machine, was a major sin. Don't do that if you want to be taken seriously.

High Isle and especially Galen was the next new low. I don't have words for how stupid the Firesong main quest was.

I still think especially Necrom and even Gold Road were a step up again. Inventing Ithelia was a great idea, and it was good while it lasted; getting rid of her would always be a major problem, and I don't spill too many tears over the ending. It was bound to be disappointing, but the rest of the story was mostly worth it, so let's move on.

Shying away from consequences and more ... heavy topics (Sharp is an exception here - again, Necrom) is one issue, and the needlessly simplistic (to avoid the term "infantile") writing is the other, I agree with that. I started with TES3:Morrowind, so dialogue was never a strong point I associated with TES games (Morrowind had a very old-style dialogue system with lexicon keywords, which makes for very poor storytelling), and even the most simple of ESO dialogues is more life-like than your average Morrowind NPC. But ESO does have a better dialogue system, so that is not an excuse.

FabresFour wrote: »

For years now, the maps have been the same. They follow a formula, and you know exactly what to expect. You know the average number of quests to expect, you know how many delves and public dungeons will be there, you know how many trials, you know… everything. There’s no mystery anymore. Everything is always handed on a silver platter to the players.

This, on the other hand, I don't really agree with. They create a new map - what else are they supposed to be doing? Five delves and three public dungeons? I really doubt that would shake things up in any noticeable way. No trial? Heavens no. A group dungeon in a chapter map instead of a DLC? I'd be for it, but it's hardly a breeze of fresh air (it's also basically what Bastion Nymics are, and you know how well those were received).
ESO has a variety of features on its maps; these have basically been established by the base game maps. Releasing new maps will have those features as well, and that's fine. It's not "handing everything on a silver platter" - if so, then the base game maps did so as well. The content is important, not the number of world bosses.

In this case, I think, the disillusionment is just the normal result of too many hours spent with a single game over too many years. It's familiarity, and familiarity is rarely exciting. There is no way around that, and there's nothing ZOS, you, or I can do to change that.

Syldras

Varana wrote: »

I started with TES3:Morrowind, so dialogue was never a strong point I associated with TES games (Morrowind had a very old-style dialogue system with lexicon keywords, which makes for very poor storytelling), and even the most simple of ESO dialogues is more life-like than your average Morrowind NPC. But ESO does have a better dialogue system, so that is not an excuse.

I prefered Morrowind's dialogues very much over what we have in ESO, to be honest. It might have not felt "life-like" because many people only emit empty chatter anyway, but compared to ESO's endless dialogue repetitions that stretch minimal content over at least 5 lines or so (and make our character seem like someone who can't remember even the simplest info for 15 seconds) it at least provided me with interesting lore.

Varana wrote: »

This, on the other hand, I don't really agree with. They create a new map - what else are they supposed to be doing? Five delves and three public dungeons? I really doubt that would shake things up in any noticeable way. No trial? Heavens no. A group dungeon in a chapter map instead of a DLC?

As I've written before, I would have wished to see more of parallel realities in this chapter. It was a missed opportunity. They could have even left the West Weald map the way it is now and let us see other places through portals during the main quest (or maybe even permanently accessible through something like a portal room on a small extra map of Ithelia's realm). That would have been fine with me.

zaria

One very nice thing doing especially the Dominion zone quests is how often your action has lasting effects like liberating towns and cities.

karthrag_inak

Khajiit suggests that when you were new in ESO many things seemed sad and dark because you were....new in the world, and weak as well.

Now you are strong, have much more familiarity with the world, much more grounding in all of the quests that you have done. To feel that same sense of potential loss would necessitate a catastrophic change, or perceived change, to the world itself.

Ingenon

Elvenheart wrote: »

Sigh…I guess I’m the only player that loved the story of a forgotten Daedric prince and found the character of Ithelia to be very interesting. 😢

I like the story of Ithelia. I have played through the story quests in Necrom and Gold Road on multiple characters.

Syldras

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit suggests that when you were new in ESO many things seemed sad and dark because you were....new in the world, and weak as well.
Now you are strong, have much more familiarity with the world, much more grounding in all of the quests that you have done. To feel that same sense of potential loss would necessitate a catastrophic change, or perceived change, to the world itself.

It's not just that. Recent writing does not have as serious consequences anymore compared to what we got in the base game and the first few chapters. Except for enemies, almost no one dies, especially not characters that the player could find likeable. And even if they die/vanish, they will always come back to life again because of some miracle. Like the people of Markarth. Or a more recent example.

I_killed_Vivec

barney2525 wrote: »

And the worst thing that could happen, would be to create such an expansion, and have it be absolutely Great and Fun.

Because Everything they did After that would be criticized in comparison.

So "don't do anything good, because people will expect good things"? Really? Is that your argument for the decline in the game? Keep their expectations low? Make them thankful for the least bit of fun?

For me the game changed with Vvardenfell. In Morrowind everyone you talked to, every door you opened, every cave you entered, every book you read, would lead you somewhere. In Vvardenfell instead of exploring ancestral tombs you took rubbings

Fast forward to the gold road and one of the first things you have to do is share a memory with Ithelia and so, without question, you activate the Echonir.

Without a moment's thought you help this dread daedric prince, who you have been told will unravel reality itself?

Really? Where was the "I'm not sure that's wise" option?

The answer is simple, it's a one dimensional, linear storyline - where everyone has a common experience. No chance to see what might happen if you don't choose to side with the daedra. My character is a warrior (not a mercenary, don't get me started on that) who fights for what she believes is right. Clearly, in order to progress the story you have to share that memory, but you could at least put up some resistance, have it beaten out of you, rather than just go along with it as if you think it's totally fine.

Necrotech_Master

Elvenheart wrote: »

Sigh…I guess I’m the only player that loved the story of a forgotten Daedric prince and found the character of Ithelia to be very interesting. 😢

i also liked the story with ithelia, i just felt there wasnt enough of her and she was shoved out the door before anything could really happen

huge amounts of hype for 5 min of screentime

Elvenheart

Syldras wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

Sigh…I guess I’m the only player that loved the story of a forgotten Daedric prince and found the character of Ithelia to be very interesting. 😢

I don't even mind the story about a forgotten Daedric Prince, and some parts of the story were nicely written. But in my opinion they could have made so much more of it, wouldn't they have clung so much to the usual formula.

The prologue looked promising, giving us a a short look at different societies that changed from daedra worship to a new belief through lore books, leading to a big question: How might these societies have developed if this change would have not taken place? Ithelia's reappearance could have shown us exactly these worlds through quests of the main story.

Imagine travelling through a portal to a Morrowind where there's no Tribunal, where the Chimer never became Dunmer, and with maybe a completely different outcome of the Battle of Red Mountain, leading to a different demography. We could have encountered Akaviri as well as Dwemer. And they could have done the same with more portals, leading to a variety of places. It wouldn't even have been neccessary to build entirely new maps, ZOS could have just altered known places - the more familiar the players are with them the better, so we really notice the differences - and show how they might look if history had been different. There's so much they could have done with that, as there are lots of singular events that caused a huge change in Tamriel's history.

I agree, I would have loved a more expansive story involving Ithelia.

Syldras

Desiato wrote: »

This is almost every game now as they've become distilled as dopamine stimulation apps, with most actual gameplay removed to facilitate more dopamine hits.
I hate it, yet it didn't happen for no reason.
ESO launched with challenging content designed with core MMO players in mind and ESO's Skyrim audience HATED all of it. So in response, ZOS nerfed the hell out of their own game -- repeatedly, over the course of years. They're still doing it. The stated goal: "raise the floor, lower the ceiling"
(...)
So what we're left with is a complex, convoluted game with meaningless depth. Follow the arrrow, press e, get dopamine. No different than the dude at the counter at the gas station with 20 lottery scratch cards in front of them.

How has anything of this to do with decreasing writing quality? Even if the fights were harder, it wouldn't chance anything about the writing being borelingly "safe" and the whole world made to a meaningless theme park lately.

Desiato

Syldras wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

This is almost every game now as they've become distilled as dopamine stimulation apps, with most actual gameplay removed to facilitate more dopamine hits.
I hate it, yet it didn't happen for no reason.
ESO launched with challenging content designed with core MMO players in mind and ESO's Skyrim audience HATED all of it. So in response, ZOS nerfed the hell out of their own game -- repeatedly, over the course of years. They're still doing it. The stated goal: "raise the floor, lower the ceiling"
(...)
So what we're left with is a complex, convoluted game with meaningless depth. Follow the arrrow, press e, get dopamine. No different than the dude at the counter at the gas station with 20 lottery scratch cards in front of them.

How has anything of this to do with decreasing writing quality? Even if the fights were harder, it wouldn't chance anything about the writing being borelingly "safe" and the whole world made to a meaningless theme park lately.

To be honest, I unintentionally went off on a non-contextual tangent based on the line I quoted.

Elsonso

barney2525 wrote: »

what do people expect? I notice that pretty much most of the complainers haven't gone through the process of creating entire worlds of their own.

Players Demand new content. So Zos has to Invent brand new ideas, never before been thought of, to develop a Zone, and a culture, and a history that still meshes with what has been established, with basic stereotypes for the people they will use to populate this addition to the world, and create enemies and conflict on a full country scale in the history. THEN they have to fill in all the minor details, unique aspects that are New and never seen before, that identify this zone as being Unique from everything else that has come before.

And THEN they have to devise a story of suitably epic proportions, that will last and be competitive for the most advanced 3k+ CP characters, for several hours of game time.

That is sort of their job, right? If everyone could do it, then why do we need them?

colossalvoids

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

And the worst thing that could happen, would be to create such an expansion, and have it be absolutely Great and Fun.

Because Everything they did After that would be criticized in comparison.

Fast forward to the gold road and one of the first things you have to do is share a memory with Ithelia and so, without question, you activate the Echonir.

Without a moment's thought you help this dread daedric prince, who you have been told will unravel reality itself?

That's one of those many insane examples why I can not expect anything of the writing team anymore, if such stuff was a pass I'm not even sure there was any quality control or at least a play test by anyone. They've already seemingly got too comfortable with mediocre writing that each year we're cratering more and more. And people seemingly are fine with that as far as I can see, so if the main crowd isn't that demanding anything will fly.

katanagirl1

Adding a spoiler warning here for dlc storylines.

I don’t mind the formulaic structure of the chapters like some of you, I think it is a structure that has worked well and it is nice for me to know what to expect. Like others said, that is not the important thing, it is the story that is contained within it and how it ties everything together.

I’m not a storyteller or a writer, but oftentimes my mind works on the details of the story in a back burner and finds holes in the plot. Sometimes the holes are so obvious, like in Summerset where the geysers are going to sink the island - as if it were a flat pancake of land floating on the sea. In Elsweyr, a necromancer digs up Cadwell’s bones and suddenly there are two Cadwells. That’s not even how necromancy works. So the main story storytelling has not been great for a while. The side quests are often fabulously done and often even stir me emotionally.

I don’t think I would agree with more suffering and gloom and doom in the game, I do play to escape from the daily headlines of the 24 hour news cycle and while playing, I like some struggle with a nice resolution. I was one of those players who hated going through three games of Mass Effect to have my choices made completely irrelevant with a one size fits all ending. There were those who thought it was a good ending but for me it seemed like I had wasted so much time for nothing,

I did enjoy the Ithelia story, but it seemed to wrap unexpectedly, the Recollection story was an awkward tie in, it all had its moments but it seemed like the budget ran out before the story was completed. I think the writers like to shepherd the player with npc guidance that tends to take up too much time instead of letting the player figure out what to do and resolve the situation. I mean we had both Beregon and the Skingrad legion lady this time. Maybe we need more action and less dialogue.

Syldras

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I did enjoy the Ithelia story, but it seemed to wrap unexpectedly, the Recollection story was an awkward tie in, it all had its moments but it seemed like the budget ran out before the story was completed. I think the writers like to shepherd the player with npc guidance that tends to take up too much time instead of letting the player figure out what to do and resolve the situation. Maybe we need more action and less dialogue.

Not that I wouldn't mind them leaving out the endless repetitions in dialogues, but just removing those doesn't neccessarily mean that the writing quality of the remaining lines will be improved, I'm afraid. And more running around killing random enemies won't really improve anything for me either, if the writing itself is lackluster and doesn't really motivate me to do whatever the supposed big goal is.

Hotdog_23

Miss the 4th quarter stand alone storyline. Fine with the chapter formula and what it brings. Just think they did better stories in the smaller DLC's. When they went to the year long stories it was a high mistake and limited them in what could tell and do in the stories.

Stay safe 🙂

Elsonso

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I did enjoy the Ithelia story, but it seemed to wrap unexpectedly, the Recollection story was an awkward tie in, it all had its moments but it seemed like the budget ran out before the story was completed. I think the writers like to shepherd the player with npc guidance that tends to take up too much time instead of letting the player figure out what to do and resolve the situation. I mean we had both Beregon and the Skingrad legion lady this time. Maybe we need more action and less dialogue.

ZOS stories are too "easy chair accessible". They are like watching a movie that won't progress until you press a button, then it continues on. The button is a meaningless signal to continue. The quest actions are busy work that lead to the point where the button is pressed that moves the story forward. The entire purpose of the player is to press that button.

We are zombies.

katanagirl1

Elsonso wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I did enjoy the Ithelia story, but it seemed to wrap unexpectedly, the Recollection story was an awkward tie in, it all had its moments but it seemed like the budget ran out before the story was completed. I think the writers like to shepherd the player with npc guidance that tends to take up too much time instead of letting the player figure out what to do and resolve the situation. I mean we had both Beregon and the Skingrad legion lady this time. Maybe we need more action and less dialogue.

ZOS stories are too "easy chair accessible". They are like watching a movie that won't progress until you press a button, then it continues on. The button is a meaningless signal to continue. The quest actions are busy work that lead to the point where the button is pressed that moves the story forward. The entire purpose of the player is to press that button.

We are zombies.

Not so true in this chapter. The last boss battle was a long, drawn-out process with all those invulnerability and add phases. I don’t advocate making story mode battles any more difficult because there are already players who cannot finish them. The stories should be for every skill level, especially beginners. I don’t enjoy long battles for that content myself because the character I do them on is not my trials character and I am there for the story. Save the furious button mashing for hard mode trials, PvP and IA.