Players are leaving ESO - here's why

Bradyfjord

Dragonnord wrote: »

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

No one is really leaving.

According to charts...

September 2023 was:
Avg. Players: 11,037
Peak Players: 17,600

October 2024 is:
Avg. Players: 10,748
Peak Players: 17,131
 

sep 2020 - 19k
in 4 years, the game has lost 50% of players, and dropped to the numbers of 2018

Dude! You can't go back like that. It doesn't work that way.

Otherwise, I can then say:

October 2017
Avg. Players: 7,780
Peak Players: 13,825

October 2024:
Avg. Players: 10,748
Peak Players: 17,131

We gained 3k players, right?

It doesn't work that way.
 

The problem I have is that the provided data doesn't have enough points to infer anything conclusive. But saying they can't go back to get data is wrong.

Rkindaleft

TheAgentNZ wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

I know of a lot of groups that are disbanding once azure and pyrebrand nerfs go live.

Seems like a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Sets have been nerfed and modified before.

And THAT causes burnout. Nobody wants to keep re-progging content they've already done or keep adjusting builds 100 times over because ZOS decides to randomly nerf something that was never a problem and made the content accessible. People are eventually going to fed up (many already have.)

SilverBride

Rkindaleft wrote: »

I'm getting tired of these threads because it's always derailed by the same 10 or so people who insist the game is in a fine state when it's not.

First of all, having an opposing view is not derailing. It is presenting how we see things from our own experiences.

Also, no one said every single thing is perfect, but the good far outweighs the negative. This is a fun game that many of us enjoy, which is why we still play.

Claiming that this game is losing players and speculating why this is supposedly happening needs to be backed up with actual data.

WitchyKiki

SilverBride wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

I'm getting tired of these threads because it's always derailed by the same 10 or so people who insist the game is in a fine state when it's not.

First of all, having an opposing view is not derailing. It is presenting how we see things from our own experiences.

Also, no one said every single thing is perfect, but the good far outweighs the negative. This is a fun game that many of us enjoy, which is why we still play.

Claiming that this game is losing players and speculating why this is supposedly happening needs to be backed up with actual data.

I love the game and theres a lot I still enjoy from it, that doesn't change that the current chapter+updates have sucked and players are rightfully upset. People are reporting from all over that the community is shrinking, you can look at the countless threads that have been made recently in this regard.

SilverBride

WitchyKiki wrote: »

I love the game and theres a lot I still enjoy from it, that doesn't change that the current chapter+updates have sucked and players are rightfully upset. People are reporting from all over that the community is shrinking, you can look at the countless threads that have been made recently in this regard.

I see a thread about PSEU servers being less populated but I don't play there so I don't know. But it is very busy on PCNA everywhere I go and I've not seen any decline in population.

Rkindaleft

SilverBride wrote: »

Rkindaleft wrote: »

I'm getting tired of these threads because it's always derailed by the same 10 or so people who insist the game is in a fine state when it's not.

First of all, having an opposing view is not derailing. It is presenting how we see things from our own experiences.

Also, no one said every single thing is perfect, but the good far outweighs the negative. This is a fun game that many of us enjoy, which is why we still play.

Claiming that this game is losing players and speculating why this is supposedly happening needs to be backed up with actual data.

I called it derailing because what usually happens in any "ESO has a problem" thread is most of them (not saying you specifically) refuse to see any point against it about why the game may be losing it's player base, largely making it pointless for further discussion as it prevents being able to have a proper conversation, rendering the thread irrelevant.

I don't think anyone in the thread is trying to convince anyone that this is a dead game, because obviously that is untrue, but content that some of us like to do (grouped content, trials, PvP, guild events and so on) is bleeding out, everyone in those communities knows it. It's plain as day for them. They can see that participation has fallen off a cliff and there are more players leaving those communities than new players are joining them. Ask anyone who regularly does hard modes or PvP and they would give you the exact same answer. I would understand a player who is primarily an overland quester or into housing probably either doesn't see it or care about how many active players there are because it doesn't affect the way they play the game, but for some a drop in players significantly affects gameplay, only being made worse with bad performance and see-saw balance changes.

WitchyKiki

SilverBride wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

I love the game and theres a lot I still enjoy from it, that doesn't change that the current chapter+updates have sucked and players are rightfully upset. People are reporting from all over that the community is shrinking, you can look at the countless threads that have been made recently in this regard.

I see a thread about PSEU servers being less populated but I don't play there so I don't know. But it is very busy on PCNA everywhere I go and I've not seen any decline in population.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666867/where-is-everyone/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666454/noticeable-changes-that-drive-players-away#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666306/population-shrinking-please-do-something#latest

Last one has 17 pages.

Dragonnord

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

No one is really leaving.

According to charts...

September 2023 was:
Avg. Players: 11,037
Peak Players: 17,600

October 2024 is:
Avg. Players: 10,748
Peak Players: 17,131
 

sep 2020 - 19k
in 4 years, the game has lost 50% of players, and dropped to the numbers of 2018

Dude! You can't go back like that. It doesn't work that way.

Otherwise, I can then say:

October 2017
Avg. Players: 7,780
Peak Players: 13,825

October 2024:
Avg. Players: 10,748
Peak Players: 17,131

We gained 3k players, right?

It doesn't work that way.
 

...But saying they can't go back to get data is wrong.

It's wrong? You sure? Fine then. As per my post above going back to Oct. 2017, we have gained 3k players. Awesome!
 

sleepy_worm

New content is a live service game's lifeblood. I don't think it should surprise anyone that halving the bespoke content released in a year would have a negative effect on player population. ZOS was well aware of this when they switched cadence. It's a calculated loss. They are giving us as much content as their current team can provide.

I wish they weren't working on a new game and that the ESO team had all the resources they did in 2017, but it's pretty clear that's not the case. The Microsoft acquisition also didn't help, I'm sure. Just a glance at the aggressive cost-cutting (layoffs) they've been dabbling with in their other game dev departments should be a clear warning sign.

Rohamad_Ali

Can not speak for other but changing vampire mist was the biggest reason for my last year long hiatus. Shadowy disguise may have a similar effect.

moderatelyfatman

There seems to be a lot of arguing about whether players are leaving or not. I'm going to put in my 2 cents here and argue that it can be a matter of perspective and can depend on where you play.

PCNA in US primetime seems to have a fairly healthy population, so a decline in a large population may not be as apparent as a decline in a smaller one.

I play in the Asia-Pacific time and Cyrodiil used to be pop-locked or near it during our primetimes (mainly on Friday and Saturday nights) from 2020-2022. (Some of this was originally from Lockdown but there were a lot of people like me who kept coming back to Cyrodiil on a regular basis until patch 35 hit). In contrast, during Asia-Pacific primetime in Greyhost now often consists of one faction on 3-bars zerging down the other 2 factions on 1-bar so that you have a single colour map.

I belong to 3 guilds based in my region and in the past were close to 100 members online during weekends from 8pm onwards. When we were running a trial we could grab someone from either our host guild or an alternate guild on the rare times we were short on a player. These days the number of members online at the same time is usually 20-30 and we're forced to either go to Craglorn and use Guild Finder (often unsuccessfully) or run with less than 12 people.

Once again, please read the first sentence. This is from the perspective of a non-US based player so my experiences might be quite different from yours.

OtarTheMad

I think that there are just a ton of factors and
while some notice a bad decline others won’t. It all depends on server you play, platform, region maybe even game mode because some could be really active and others might be dead.

I am PC/NA and I am East Coast. I can say that I haven’t seen any sort of decline really at all. I even logged in a few times pretty late here like 1-2am in the past and always ran into players..

So while on some platforms eso might not be doing great, in others it’s just fine.

SilverBride

WitchyKiki wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

I love the game and theres a lot I still enjoy from it, that doesn't change that the current chapter+updates have sucked and players are rightfully upset. People are reporting from all over that the community is shrinking, you can look at the countless threads that have been made recently in this regard.

I see a thread about PSEU servers being less populated but I don't play there so I don't know. But it is very busy on PCNA everywhere I go and I've not seen any decline in population.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666867/where-is-everyone/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666454/noticeable-changes-that-drive-players-away#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666306/population-shrinking-please-do-something#latest

Last one has 17 pages.

The low population threads are for PSEU and PCEU. The second about what is driving players away again is just speculation.

MISTFORMBZZZ

They switch to lately released games wich have crossplay, to play with their friends or with people who left the game years ago.

AuroranGoldenEagle

People can extrapolate from both Steam data and anecdotal experiences here, but ZOS and MS are the ones with the full picture of numbers across all platforms and time zones.

Will be interesting to see if there's any acknowledgement or statement, and/or a huge overhaul or massive changes out of the blue that would indicate an attempt at course-correction of ESO's rapid decline.

If there's none of the above, and it's BAU over at Zeni HQ, then the decline might not be that bad, or there might be no decline at all.

It all comes down to how ZOS acts over the next few months and leading into 2025.

madman65

Well everyone, you may throw stats out all day long but the truth is this. We pay for the game, we want to play it, we get frustrated from the lag AND the "getting kicked to the login" only to have to wait 5 minutes. YES wait 5 minutes for SOME gamers, I dare type my thoughts but I would get banned. My hint, tiering and that`s all i`m typing.

sleepy_worm

I can't speak to data at all, just anecdotes. As an officer in a large guild meant for new players, we tend to see the predictable peaks and troughs in applications. For example, the free Epic giveaway was a very noticeable peak.

We are definitely in a trough right now and have been for a while.

WitchyKiki

SilverBride wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

I love the game and theres a lot I still enjoy from it, that doesn't change that the current chapter+updates have sucked and players are rightfully upset. People are reporting from all over that the community is shrinking, you can look at the countless threads that have been made recently in this regard.

I see a thread about PSEU servers being less populated but I don't play there so I don't know. But it is very busy on PCNA everywhere I go and I've not seen any decline in population.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666867/where-is-everyone/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666454/noticeable-changes-that-drive-players-away#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666306/population-shrinking-please-do-something#latest

Last one has 17 pages.

The low population threads are for PSEU and PCEU. The second about what is driving players away again is just speculation.

Girl...lmao. I guess people believe whatever they want to believe, truly.

twev

A lot of people in these discussions aren't taking into account that the player base of certain areas can be declining, (PvP, Veteran dungeons, battlegrounds) while most of the newer players are coming in and playing PvE for a while, and keeping those area populations shards 'filled' doing overland stuff.

Another aspect is that while the servers may have been all the while load balancing PvE areas by spinning up multiple shards on each map, players claiming 'I see crowded towns everywhere' may be seeing that on the one or two shards spun up, and there just isn't the need for extra shards, so population density on a shard may be the same, but there may very well be fewer shards.

Naturally, I don't have any more inside info than anyone else, to say that this *is* what's happening, but it would account for some of the discrepancy between the two points of opinion regarding seeing crowded towns, while also seeing low player participation in many other areas of the game.

Both sides can be correct at the same time.
PvP, vet mode, and end game are getting sparse populations, while overland can appear full at any given time even with fewer total players in end game.

Additionally, an average player that progresses through PvE and overland who doesn't move on to PvP and end game, eventually leaves the game sooner than vet players who finish Pve and overland, but stay in the game playing the other portion of the content.

It must also be taken into account for consideration that, while the Steam population stats aren't in any way definitive, they ARE a slice of information regarding a cross section of the player population.
Normal polling in any industry almost never counts 100% of the population before it considers itself in possession of valid data, (though ZOS is in the unique position of knowing exactly how many unique licenses log in in any given 24 hour, or 7 day, period, and for how long) but that doesn't negate the public data that Steam publishes regarding population health.

And just a personal opinion, but I can easily believe that a game that loses the end game PvP aspect will also never acquire a certain population of NEW players who will even BUY a game if their intention is progressing into a healthy PvP endgame.

Some people won't want to consider these points as important to the overall discussion without fully corroborated and documented information disclosed by ZOS, BUT that doesn't nullify these points as being part of a discussion about the overall health of the game.

Consider, or don't, but ignoring the points won't make them null data, because end game IS suffering, and few games can remain healthy on a population of transient new players, for very long.
If ZOS were to settle for just the churn of new players alone, there would be little need to invest in much or more new development and new maps if a sizable percentage of new players don't stick around long enough to see it.

And I'm comfortable believing that there isn't an endless supply of new players who will want to play PvE exclusively in a game that is already 10 years old on a 15 year old engine while new games on new engines (with the advantage of less/no old spaghetti code, kludges and server issues/lag) with new ideas and better features and graphics in newer genres are being offered now, or soon in the market.

Pelanora

I can't believe we're doing this all over again.

Steam vs all other players vs the game isn't dying I love it so it's fine vs no new content for much of a year vs abandoned pvp vs qol wherehowwhat? vs endless new games being released will finish eso vs omg over and over this debate


I recall one of the last long threads on this, the whole thread wasn't just closed by Zos, they removed it entirely.

Elsonso

Rkindaleft wrote: »

I'm getting tired of these threads because it's always derailed by the same 10 or so people who insist the game is in a fine state when it's not. If it was in a fine state you wouldn't have a 65 page thread about performance issues and multiple threads started in the last 2 weeks about how the population has decreased, one of which is 17 pages long and has had good discussions within it.

The thing to keep in mind is that if someone has been around for long enough, none of this is new.

It comes in waves due to the echo chamber here, but there is always a complaint about something with the game and this reason is why the game is failing. It does not have enough MMO features. It is not solo enough. Group finder doesn't work. There is no auction house. Some class got nerfed. ZOS abandoned PVP. Performance is horrible. The cities are empty. Friends have left the game. Guilds died. Dogs and cats living together.

Steam Charts are always bad news, unless it isn't, and then no one mentions Steam Charts when talking about how the game is dying.

The Chicken Little threads here became memes a long time ago.

The game has been announced to be dying since almost literally the day after launch. It will continue to be on its last legs until they finally close the doors. It might be another 10 years before that happens. Between now and then, the game will be failing, players are abandoning ship, no one logging in, guilds are empty, cities are empty, the game is dying.

The game is not currently failing... BUT... some people may not like the direction that ZOS is going and that might make them leave the game. This has happened before, too. Update 35, for example. Inevitably, others will feel differently and not leave. New players who don't know about, or don't care about, the direction, or which class skill got nerfed, or whether they are scaling back on content, or don't feel performance is an issue, will join the game.

Jaimeh

sleepy_worm wrote: »

New content is a live service game's lifeblood. I don't think it should surprise anyone that halving the bespoke content released in a year would have a negative effect on player population. ZOS was well aware of this when they switched cadence. It's a calculated loss. They are giving us as much content as their current team can provide.

That's all well and good, but they are still charging the same prices.

XSTRONG

I think releases of new games draw players away from eso.

Black myth: Wukong , wow war within , starwars outlaw are just a few names and now Diablo 4 comes with a new season + expansion.

So I dont think all players leave because Eso sucks its just more new games to play.

Myself i like Eso but I play another game much more then Eso right now but dosent mean i wont come back and play eso more.

Parrot1986

XSTRONG wrote: »

I think releases of new games draw players away from eso.

Black myth: Wukong , wow war within , starwars outlaw are just a few names and now Diablo 4 comes with a new season + expansion.

So I dont think all players leave because Eso sucks its just more new games to play.

Myself i like Eso but I play another game much more then Eso right now but dosent mean i wont come back and play eso more.

Agree and disagree with this. I’m someone who almost always plays eso as an mmo game and dips into WoW a few times a year this is the first time I’ve really swapped around and been mainly playing wow with eso being doing the odd thing with friends and some dailies when I have time.

ESOs slow down of content is a massive factor for me, WoW now releases more content and has also made it much easier to play more alts etc and address a lot of bug bears in the game that I had.

So I agree other games will distract players from time to time but esos own lack of content is a massive driver in people stopping playing or playing less.

This is the first time since launch I’ve genuinely considered stopping subbing since I have all the mats I’ll ever need and got all the dlcs either free or from crowns from my sub. Whilst that might sound good for me losing peoples support is never a good thing long term.

Meiox

TDVM wrote: »

The game is developing very slowly, features that are in other MMOs in ESO are added after 9 years (group finder is an example), you don't need to invent anything, just take it.
Features that are in other MMOs are presented as something “innovative” but in the end causes disappointment (House tour is an example)
The game is being developed in the direction of the amount of content and not in quality, old locations are not updated and not supplemented with content.
More “buy this, buy that”.
Features that should be available to ALL players are available only to those who bought the chapter (Skins on skins, archaeology, or satellites is an example). And the real “killer features” of chapters are essentially nonexistent.
Class balance is not there, hybridization is incomplete and it is not clear why it is needed at all.
Events monotonous and boring.
There is no understanding of where to develop the game
Pvp is not updated for how many years (Cyro and IC).
And the worst thing is the simplification of everything in the game.
EVEN, even the quality of crown crate items has dropped(Just look at Vision of the Bloodmoon in crown crates, isn't that a hack job?)

Now the game is in a very suspended state, and if this is not dealt with and continue not to listen to the audience that really understands what the game needs and how it can be improved and finalized, then in the future it will not save even the release of chapters and players will continue to leave the game in other projects

Do you have any data to support your claim and your solution? Or is it more a trust me bro thing?

SilverBride

Elsonso wrote: »

The thing to keep in mind is that if someone has been around for long enough, none of this is new.

It comes in waves due to the echo chamber here, but there is always a complaint about something with the game and this reason is why the game is failing. It does not have enough MMO features. It is not solo enough. Group finder doesn't work. There is no auction house. Some class got nerfed. ZOS abandoned PVP. Performance is horrible. The cities are empty. Friends have left the game. Guilds died. Dogs and cats living together.

Steam Charts are always bad news, unless it isn't, and then no one mentions Steam Charts when talking about how the game is dying.

The Chicken Little threads here became memes a long time ago.

The game has been announced to be dying since almost literally the day after launch. It will continue to be on its last legs until they finally close the doors. It might be another 10 years before that happens. Between now and then, the game will be failing, players are abandoning ship, no one logging in, guilds are empty, cities are empty, the game is dying.

The game is not currently failing... BUT... some people may not like the direction that ZOS is going and that might make them leave the game. This has happened before, too. Update 35, for example. Inevitably, others will feel differently and not leave. New players who don't know about, or don't care about, the direction, or which class skill got nerfed, or whether they are scaling back on content, or don't feel performance is an issue, will join the game.

This sums it up very well.

READLER

Almost all this year, when I go into the game, I ask myself: "And this is a celebration of ten years of ESO?" Gifts and events are certainly good. But the game and the content, meh.
ESO has accumulated many minor problems over the years. And besides, the developers moved away from the "dungeon - chapter - dungeon - zone" scheme, giving us small balance updates with insignificant improvements (except perhaps IA) in return, and the players began to feel deceived, because it seems as if the released resources are going nowhere.
I hope the developers really have some kind of plan to return interest in the game from the players. Otherwise, ESO will gradually lose players from different types of content.

LadyGP

Amottica wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

Performance seems more reasonable.

And a failure in effective communication.

Performance, yes, and the reduction of meaningful content since that is a major driver in keeping players' interest. Most of that list is not a notable driver, and some are the same in almost every MMORPG.

Performance and lack of content go hand in hand.

The engine is holding them back and they are starting to feel years of technical debt that were built.

Do a quick search on Slipspace engine and look at the issues devs were open about regarding it. Any time they tried to add something to Halo infinite it was 3-5x more difficult than working with a typical engine.

ZoS is working with an engine that is so old (15+ years) that adding anything is next to impossible. Plus, most of the devs who built eso are gone so having anyone know truly knows how the code stack operates is also not a thing.

The obvious comment would be, "Well ZoS needs to upgrade the engine then."

I'm sure they had this same conversations with devs 5 years ago and someone in management made the decision to not spend the resources to do it.

Now, with ZoS saying their next game is in development and resources being shifted there... a new engine this late in a games life would be a dumb decision.

ESO is drifting off into the sunset. The studios main objective now, although they won't confirm this, is to just keep generating money to fund the current expenses for ESO and fund future development on the next game.

If I'm being blunt... we as a community just need to accept this. Yes, I've been super loud about the lack of Cyro content for 5 years but at this point... I'm done hoping for new stuff. The crown store is what it is and this game is where it is... and that is that. Love it or hate it... I can accept it from a business standpoint.

* This is all just my opinion based on being a software dev, seeing how companies operate, and looking at past history with other studios that have gone through similar things.

Northwold

aleksandr_ESO wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

No one is really leaving.

According to charts...

September 2023 was:
Avg. Players: 11,037
Peak Players: 17,600

October 2023 is:
Avg. Players: 10,748
Peak Players: 17,131
 

sep 2020 - 19k
in 4 years, the game has lost 50% of players, and dropped to the numbers of 2018

That was Covid so all other points aside not an especially useful reference point. Doesn't really say much of anything that that was the total the game could muster *when people were literally sitting at home doing nothing every single day*.

manukartofanu

The situation with the declining population is similar to what happened with the in-game market. There were people discussing that the changes being implemented would inevitably lead to a drop in prices as early as August last year, but serious widespread discussions only began in May, and even then, there was still some optimism. Remember, there were people coming in and saying that it was just seasonal changes and everything would soon return to normal? I'm curious, does anyone seriously believe that in-game market prices could return to the numbers we saw before April this year?

Right now, we're at the stage equivalent to early April on the market, but this time, it's about the population. Those who are doing fine and don't see the trend will only realize it after the fact, when the game has 5k players online, and it could all happen just as suddenly as it did with the market, when, due to the accumulation of problems, something becomes the last straw, and the snowball will be unstoppable.