Where is everyone?

barney2525 · October 6

P2W? Exactly WHAT can you buy with MONEY that is going to improve your DPS? Or Defenses? Or make your character Unkillable?

There is NOTHING in this game that you can BUY with money that will make your character Dominant over all other characters.

Lalothen · October 6

FelisCatus wrote: »

I log on around 13:15 and gold road (despite the event is dead) it never used to be this way. A lot of other zones were dead too. Where is everyone? Can't be an MMO without the MM. Where is everyone?! Can't find many players until late evening. Rest of the day/night is dead.

I log on to get the daily reward and that's it usually - outside of a 2hr Trial group on Sunday evening. I don't see a point continuing to regularly play and pad ZOS' active player numbers when my gaming time is precious and there are much better games to play - ones where the developers actually listen to their playerbase.

Aurielle · October 6

barney2525 wrote: »

P2W? Exactly WHAT can you buy with MONEY that is going to improve your DPS? Or Defenses? Or make your character Unkillable?

There is NOTHING in this game that you can BUY with money that will make your character Dominant over all other characters.

To be clear, we were not talking about this game. We were talking about the other PVP-focused game that people are playing right now as an alternative to ESO. In that game, Auction Hall items (including BIS weapons) can only be purchased with a premium currency that you can buy for real money in the store. That store also features a Battle Pass that grants gear / skill upgrade materials that can be tough / time consuming to grind if you don’t want to pull out your credit card. It is 100% a P2W game, especially in the PVP endgame. According to people in Korea, the only reason why T&L failed in their region is because it didn’t have enough P2W elements, and was disliked by whales for that reason. Compared to a standard Western MMO like ESO, however, it features an uncomfortable amount of P2W elements.

For all of ESO’s performance flaws and baffling set nerfs, at least you actually have a chance of competing in Cyrodiil without getting mowed down by an OP guild with many members who have paid real money for their gear and skill upgrades.

hiyde · October 6

Aurielle wrote: »

Auction Hall items (including BIS weapons) can only be purchased with a premium currency that you can buy for real money in the store.

That currency isn't required to *sell* items and when you do sell items, you get paid in the premium currency which means no $$ need to be spent to use the AH.

That store also features a Battle Pass that grants gear / skill upgrade materials that can be tough / time consuming to grind if you don’t want to pull out your credit card. It is 100% a P2W game, especially in the PVP endgame

For all of ESO’s performance flaws and baffling set nerfs, at least you actually have a chance of competing in Cyrodiil without getting mowed down by an OP guild with many members who have paid real money for their gear and skill upgrades.

Swipe your credit card to buy crowns > Sell those crowns for gold > Buy gear, upgrade mats, emp or trial carries to get all the items you listed above.

What's the difference?

There are aspects to both game's monetization that I'm not in love with, but I'm also able to play both games without swiping my credit card in ways I prefer not to. I don't feel disadvantaged in either game. There is nothing you *must* spend $$ on to play effectively in either game.

SkaraMinoc · October 6

Aurielle · October 6

hiyde wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Auction Hall items (including BIS weapons) can only be purchased with a premium currency that you can buy for real money in the store.

That currency isn't required to *sell* items and when you do sell items, you get paid in the premium currency which means no $$ need to be spent to use the AH.

Splitting hairs. You, as an individual, can avoid spending real money for gear in T&L if you really want to. Sure. But that doesn’t change the fact that OP guilds out there are absolutely filled with people who bought their way into said guilds by opening their wallets on day one. And it doesn’t change the fact that you’ll most likely lag behind others in terms of gear progression, especially after updates.

hiyde wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

That store also features a Battle Pass that grants gear / skill upgrade materials that can be tough / time consuming to grind if you don’t want to pull out your credit card. It is 100% a P2W game, especially in the PVP endgame

For all of ESO’s performance flaws and baffling set nerfs, at least you actually have a chance of competing in Cyrodiil without getting mowed down by an OP guild with many members who have paid real money for their gear and skill upgrades.

Swipe your credit card to buy crowns > Sell those crowns for gold > Buy gear, upgrade mats, emp or trial carries to get all the items you listed above.

What's the difference?

There are aspects to both game's monetization that I'm not in love with, but I'm also able to play both games without swiping my credit card in ways I prefer not to. I don't feel disadvantaged in either game. There is nothing you *must* spend $$ on to play effectively in either game.

It’s completely unnecessary to buy Crowns and sell them in order to quickly upgrade your gear in this game, and you know this. This game hands out gear upgrade materials for free like candy just for logging in irrespective of subscription status, and they can easily be acquired in game via crafting writs / refining mats. Hardly anyone buys carries for gear in ESO, because gear is trivially easy to acquire in this game. This is not the case in T&L. Time is valuable, and all predatory P2W games like T&L take advantage of that.

ThoraxtheDark · October 6

The die hards will truly never acknowledge the lack of players. They always seem to think it's ever steady getting bigger. New mmorpg just came out. Eso gonna be ever more dead, also maybe everyone was at work when you checked lmao

maxxiestackhouse · October 6

FelisCatus wrote: »

Sad that this game is losing players. Zones are just deader and the "peak hours" become smaller and smaller. Probably doesn't help ESO that new MMOs are coming out such as Throne and Liberty. On top of that, you should check the steam forums. A lot of people have been posting about how they're leaving, and it does make you wonder why...

Because, bad seeding, rng, lag, disconnects, rigged ToT, economy destroyed, nerfed sets, unbalanced PvP, rubber banding and animation sticking so bad you can make a tea while you wait…. Just a few things…

OsUfi · October 6

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

The die hards will truly never acknowledge the lack of players. They always seem to think it's ever steady getting bigger. New mmorpg just came out. Eso gonna be ever more dead, also maybe everyone was at work when you checked lmao

I can acknowledge the game's population is shrinking. It's 10 years old. I can also see it's far from dead, and I don't feel like standing in the dead-game-echo-chamber of negativity that drives other players away.

Shrug emoji or something.

karthrag_inak · October 6

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Lixiviant wrote: »

Woah, Gold road is NOT empty on the PS/NA. Plenty of people to play with.

Depends on the time of day/night. When I'm on late PDT there are numerous complaints in zone chat about "where are all the people?" every night.

They are having trouble with the group events, WBs and incursions.

Numerous complaints of no people.

Numerous complaints

Numerous.

LatentBuzzard · October 6

Aurielle wrote: »

Time is valuable, and all predatory P2W games like T&L take advantage of that.

Creating grinds and selling solutions for real money isn't just for P2W games. The Skyshard and Skill Tree lines in the Crown Store out front should have told you.

hiyde · October 6

Aurielle wrote: »

Splitting hairs. You, as an individual, can avoid spending real money for gear in T&L if you really want to. Sure. But that doesn’t change the fact that OP guilds out there are absolutely filled with people who bought their way into said guilds by opening their wallets on day one. And it doesn’t change the fact that you’ll most likely lag behind others in terms of gear progression, especially after updates.

It’s completely unnecessary to buy Crowns and sell them in order to quickly upgrade your gear in this game, and you know this. This game hands out gear upgrade materials for free like candy just for logging in irrespective of subscription status, and they can easily be acquired in game via crafting writs / refining mats. Hardly anyone buys carries for gear in ESO, because gear is trivially easy to acquire in this game. This is not the case in T&L. Time is valuable, and all predatory P2W games like T&L take advantage of that.

Oh my goodness. There is exactly ONE gear item in the paid Battle Pass in that game and the FREE Battle, daily quests and easy public dungeons hand out upgrade mats like candy.

I'd also love to know how people whipped out their wallet and "bought their way" into guilds on day 1 by buying gear when they'd be buying that gear from the *auction house* which means someone had to get it to drop in the first place.

Speaking of splitting hairs, the simple fact is that both games have legal ways to convert $$ into in-game currency & items. Both games sell solutions to speed up or bypass grinds. It's either "p2w" in both games or it's "p2w" in neither.

Aurielle · October 6

hiyde wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Splitting hairs. You, as an individual, can avoid spending real money for gear in T&L if you really want to. Sure. But that doesn’t change the fact that OP guilds out there are absolutely filled with people who bought their way into said guilds by opening their wallets on day one. And it doesn’t change the fact that you’ll most likely lag behind others in terms of gear progression, especially after updates.

It’s completely unnecessary to buy Crowns and sell them in order to quickly upgrade your gear in this game, and you know this. This game hands out gear upgrade materials for free like candy just for logging in irrespective of subscription status, and they can easily be acquired in game via crafting writs / refining mats. Hardly anyone buys carries for gear in ESO, because gear is trivially easy to acquire in this game. This is not the case in T&L. Time is valuable, and all predatory P2W games like T&L take advantage of that.

Oh my goodness. There is exactly ONE gear item in the paid Battle Pass in that game and the FREE Battle, daily quests and easy public dungeons hand out upgrade mats like candy.

I'd also love to know how people whipped out their wallet and "bought their way" into guilds on day 1 by buying gear when they'd be buying that gear from the *auction house* which means someone had to get it to drop in the first place.

Speaking of splitting hairs, the simple fact is that both games have legal ways to convert $$ into in-game currency & items. Both games sell solutions to speed up or bypass grinds. It's either "p2w" in both games or it's "p2w" in neither.

Yes, people whipped out their credit cards and bought BIS gear on day one. People with experience playing the game in the beta and early access hit level 50 on the F2P servers within three hours of release. They got coveted drops doing content they were already very familiar with, and sold them to whales for big money to boost their guilds, day one. You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think the P2W elements of T&L are anywhere near what we can purchase in ESO with real money.

hiyde · October 6

Aurielle wrote: »

Yes, people whipped out their credit cards and bought BIS gear on day one. People with experience playing the game in the beta and early access hit level 50 on the F2P servers within three hours of release. They got coveted drops doing content they were already very familiar with, and sold them to whales for big money to boost their guilds, day one. You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think the P2W elements of T&L are anywhere near what we can purchase in ESO with real money.

If it's possible to:

- Go from 0 to 50
- Farm up BIS gear for you and your group
- Then farm up enough BIS gear to sell to hundreds (if not thousands) of whales so they could completely max out their gear on day one

...all within hours of the game launching, why would anyone feel the need to p2w?

Elsonso · October 6

Rowjoh wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

I think it's from ncsoft. If so, it's pay to win. Their cash shops ruin many games for me.

yes, but apparently its not P2W - been reading some in-depth reviews, and they counter this perception.

I find that a lot of reviewers tend to tiptoe around P2W. In some markets, it is a generally negative term. Elsewhere, it is assumed and does not need to be mentioned. When it comes up, I often see them narrowly define the term such that things the game does will not fall into the definition. Sometimes, they say things like "not as bad as other games" to downplay the extent of something a game will do that is negative.

Long story short is that yes, T&L is pay to win, if only because it offers cash bypasses for long grinds, and I have seen reviews describing this.

Aurielle wrote: »

To be clear, we were not talking about this game. We were talking about the other PVP-focused game that people are playing right now as an alternative to ESO. In that game, Auction Hall items (including BIS weapons) can only be purchased with a premium currency that you can buy for real money in the store. That store also features a Battle Pass that grants gear / skill upgrade materials that can be tough / time consuming to grind if you don’t want to pull out your credit card. It is 100% a P2W game, especially in the PVP endgame. According to people in Korea, the only reason why T&L failed in their region is because it didn’t have enough P2W elements, and was disliked by whales for that reason. Compared to a standard Western MMO like ESO, however, it features an uncomfortable amount of P2W elements.

From what I have been told, and how it has been explained to me, P2W aspects are popular in Korean games because it is less expensive. I have never been to Korea, and my limited exposure to gamers in Korea could introduce bias and inaccuracies, but I have been told that a lot of people pay to play video games hourly. It might be cheaper for them to simply pay money to the cash shop than to spend time grinding out the equivalent. Once they are doing that, there isn't much of a difference between paying for convenience and paying for power.

ESO is no stranger to P2W, at least where it comes to paying for convenience. A lot of what ZOS offers is gated behind the player having to do it at least once. It is an interesting twist on the whole P2W thing. I am sure that this is frustrating in certain markets where the expectation is that they can simply pay to bypass all of the leveling grind and get on with playing the end game.

Aurielle · October 6

hiyde wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Yes, people whipped out their credit cards and bought BIS gear on day one. People with experience playing the game in the beta and early access hit level 50 on the F2P servers within three hours of release. They got coveted drops doing content they were already very familiar with, and sold them to whales for big money to boost their guilds, day one. You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think the P2W elements of T&L are anywhere near what we can purchase in ESO with real money.

If it's possible to:

- Go from 0 to 50
- Farm up BIS gear for you and your group
- Then farm up enough BIS gear to sell to hundreds (if not thousands) of whales so they could completely max out their gear on day one

...all within hours of the game launching, why would anyone feel the need to p2w?

I should have clarified: people doing this three hour grind were (and still are) part of elite guilds formed well before F2P launch. It’s not possible for the average F2P player with no elite guild connections. The average player has to spend many, many hours grinding to even have a chance at competing. Guilds have so much power in T&L — if you are not part of an elite guild, your access to the best gear drops (the ones that actually sell) is limited.

hiyde · October 6

Elsonso wrote: »

ESO is no stranger to P2W, at least where it comes to paying for convenience. A lot of what ZOS offers is gated behind the player having to do it at least once. It is an interesting twist on the whole P2W thing. I am sure that this is frustrating in certain markets where the expectation is that they can simply pay to bypass all of the leveling grind and get on with playing the end game.

- Base Game Price
- Paid Chapters
- Crown Crates (gambling)
- Items in the crown store that shorten long grinds
- Legal to convert paid currency to in-game currency
- $100 homes
- Paid Subscriptions (for perks like craft bags)

ESO has done a masterful job of monetizing their game with over 200 Million Dollars in revenue. And good on them, like any other game or business, they aren't a charity.

I don't love everything on that list above, but I've had 10 great years (and counting) in this game, supporting it with 5 active ESO+ accounts and purchasing at least 2 copies of every chapter offered. Love the game & community and while I like to dabble in other MMOs now and then, none of them have come close to pulling me away from this game.

As for this, and other games, even if there are RMT elements I'm not in agreement with, as long as I'm able to play the game without being forced to spend money in those ways, and won't be at a disadvantage, I'm happy to support the game.

ArchMikem · October 6

karthrag_inak wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Lixiviant wrote: »

Woah, Gold road is NOT empty on the PS/NA. Plenty of people to play with.

Depends on the time of day/night. When I'm on late PDT there are numerous complaints in zone chat about "where are all the people?" every night.

They are having trouble with the group events, WBs and incursions.

Numerous complaints of no people.

Numerous complaints

Numerous.

The Sorrowful Senche Pet, this little guy may have sharp teeth, but the constant sad puppy dog eyes staring up into your Soul will always have you risking your limbs to give pets and treats.

Coming soon to the Crown Store.

FelisCatus · October 13

maxxiestackhouse wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

Sad that this game is losing players. Zones are just deader and the "peak hours" become smaller and smaller. Probably doesn't help ESO that new MMOs are coming out such as Throne and Liberty. On top of that, you should check the steam forums. A lot of people have been posting about how they're leaving, and it does make you wonder why...

Because, bad seeding, rng, lag, disconnects, rigged ToT, economy destroyed, nerfed sets, unbalanced PvP, rubber banding and animation sticking so bad you can make a tea while you wait…. Just a few things…

What does bad seeding mean?

Elsonso · October 13

FelisCatus wrote: »

maxxiestackhouse wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

Sad that this game is losing players. Zones are just deader and the "peak hours" become smaller and smaller. Probably doesn't help ESO that new MMOs are coming out such as Throne and Liberty. On top of that, you should check the steam forums. A lot of people have been posting about how they're leaving, and it does make you wonder why...

Because, bad seeding, rng, lag, disconnects, rigged ToT, economy destroyed, nerfed sets, unbalanced PvP, rubber banding and animation sticking so bad you can make a tea while you wait…. Just a few things…

What does bad seeding mean?

It leads to erosion and poor water quality.

Seriously, I was confused by that, too.

moderatelyfatman · October 13

Soarora wrote: »

Most players are adults (have school/work/etc) and there’s not the same concentration of people across every timezone. PC/NA East coast, I can get on early on a Friday and game feels pretty empty because most people are at their IRL commitments. I can get on at night and game is active because people from the Americas are all done with work.

Bear in mind that the PC NA servers have large number players in the Asia-Pacific region plus a few from the EU. The best indicator of population in the past has been Cyrodiil because it is a single instance.

In the past, during Asia-Pacific primetime (about 6am EST onward) Cyrodiil Grey Host used to be pop-locked on Fridays and the weekends.
Now Cryodiil consists of one faction on 3 bars zerging the other two faction on one bar.

As for PvE content: I'm a member of 3 guilds in this region. Two years ago we would have a large number of benched players for our trials because they didn't sign up quickly enough, with trials filling withing 30 mins of being posted on discord.
Now, my guilds regularly have have to cancel trials because they can't get enough players even when asking on other guilds. Sometimes even group finder can't make up the shortfall.

People have left and are still leaving...

MISTFORMBZZZ · October 13

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

The die hards will truly never acknowledge the lack of players. They always seem to think it's ever steady getting bigger. New mmorpg just came out. Eso gonna be ever more dead, also maybe everyone was at work when you checked lmao

Just wait till new world is also out on consoles

Meanwhile 32k views & 22 pages of people mentioning about how empty the game already is

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666306/population-shrinking-please-do-something/p1

Warhawke_80 · October 13

Another doom thread...

Lets see how many times we can use the word Toxic in a sentence....

It's okay Timmy....I'm still here....

Lixiviant wrote: »

Woah, Gold road is NOT empty on the PS/NA. Plenty of people to play with.

Don't say that!!!!!...they'll pull that silly steam chart back out again.....just nod your head and smile....

FelisCatus · October 13

Shanee wrote: »

[snip]

I think it also implies undeath like zombies. Dead but still going.

[edited to remove quote]

Warhawke_80 · October 13

FelisCatus wrote: »

Shanee wrote: »

[snip]

I think it also implies undeath like zombies. Dead but still going.

According to that logic and if you read the forums...ESO has been that way since 2014

So same as it ever was.....

But it really, really, really, really, really really really *GASP* really, really, really, really is dead this time.....

OH Noes I'm a Toxic Positive!!!!!

[edited to remove quote]

Rowjoh · October 13

Aurielle wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

If the proposed nonsensical change to Nightblade Cloak goes ahead this month, then I'm gonna take a damn good look at Throne and Liberty.

I've had enough of investing time and money in my characters only for ZoS to go OTT with a nerf far too often, and I suspect I'm not the only one..

I think it's from ncsoft. If so, it's pay to win. Their cash shops ruin many games for me.

yes, but apparently its not P2W - been reading some in-depth reviews, and they counter this perception.

@Rowjoh , I tried the game out for a few days, and it is absolutely P2W. The grind required to bypass the game’s P2W elements is oppressive and unrealistic for most gamers. Anyone claiming the game is not P2W is either coping big time to justify their interest in their shiny new game, or they’re a streamer literally being paid to hype up the game.

Also, given that Nightblade cloak balancing is the reason why you want to try T&L, please note the following:

https://imgur.com/a/N7rPLcU

Taking damage or getting CC’ed pulls you out of stealth, and you can’t use the skill again for a full minute. It’s almost like being able to stealth at will is an incredibly powerful ability that needs to be balanced to prevent abuse of all that power…

Having now played T&L I can confirm that it is PFC - pay for convenience – but not pay to win. Same as ESO.

P2W only applies when an advantage is given, more typically for PVP, so if a player can buy items that are superior to in-game items, then that's the true definition of P2W.

Exp potions/mount training/crafting research scrolls/character slots etc. are convenience items, and cosmetic items are for looks, none of which cross into the P2W category.

If I grind/catch up to where a paying player is, there is no "win", because they’re not better equipped or stronger than me and have no gameplay advantage at all.

Spending real money to speed up progression isn’t pay to win. Stampeding to max level is not the purpose of the MMORPG genre, and it will only appear 'oppressive and unrealistic' to impatient and lazy gamers with more money than sense.

SeaGtGruff · October 14

Elsonso wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

maxxiestackhouse wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

Sad that this game is losing players. Zones are just deader and the "peak hours" become smaller and smaller. Probably doesn't help ESO that new MMOs are coming out such as Throne and Liberty. On top of that, you should check the steam forums. A lot of people have been posting about how they're leaving, and it does make you wonder why...

Because, bad seeding, rng, lag, disconnects, rigged ToT, economy destroyed, nerfed sets, unbalanced PvP, rubber banding and animation sticking so bad you can make a tea while you wait…. Just a few things…

What does bad seeding mean?

It leads to erosion and poor water quality.

Seriously, I was confused by that, too.

I believe it refers to players who seem to get horrible RNG results all the time, whether it be while harvesting resource nodes and hardly ever getting Luminous Ink, or grinding for days and weeks for coveted Antiquity leads and not getting them, or any other activity that hinges upon RNG results.

moderatelyfatman · October 14

barney2525 wrote: »

P2W? Exactly WHAT can you buy with MONEY that is going to improve your DPS? Or Defenses? Or make your character Unkillable?

There is NOTHING in this game that you can BUY with money that will make your character Dominant over all other characters.

Ever hear of a class called The Arcanist?
Try getting into an end game trial group without one.

gronoxvx · October 14

barney2525 wrote: »

P2W? Exactly WHAT can you buy with MONEY that is going to improve your DPS? Or Defenses? Or make your character Unkillable?

There is NOTHING in this game that you can BUY with money that will make your character Dominant over all other characters.

Under 50 cyro

Buy the mages guild line to unlock meteor and nuke people with meteor.

Profit.

Plenty of other examples as well such as when necro was first released it was so ridiculously OP you couldnt compete in pvp without it. Add to it that zos didnt address for numerous patches and then nerfed it into the ground. Similar with the arcanist as well. Yet eso has no p2w elements. Lolz.

Rowjoh · October 14

gronoxvx wrote: »

barney2525 wrote: »

P2W? Exactly WHAT can you buy with MONEY that is going to improve your DPS? Or Defenses? Or make your character Unkillable?

There is NOTHING in this game that you can BUY with money that will make your character Dominant over all other characters.

Under 50 cyro

Buy the mages guild line to unlock meteor and nuke people with meteor.

Profit.

Plenty of other examples as well such as when necro was first released it was so ridiculously OP you couldnt compete in pvp without it. Add to it that zos didnt address for numerous patches and then nerfed it into the ground. Similar with the arcanist as well. Yet eso has no p2w elements. Lolz.

This is completely inaccurate and not the case at all.

You cannot buy the Mages Guild skill line for your alts without levelling it to max first – it’s the same for everyone.

The new classes (Necro and Arcanist) came free with DLC expansions. Expansions are a normal part of every MMO and are not P2W.

Some are so vast, they can rival AAA single player games for content, so everyone accepts that having to pay for this content is perfectly acceptable and part and parcel of the MMO journey.