Is it acceptable for zenimax to scour through your messages and take account actions at random?

Thee_Cheshire_Cat · October 7

No

Zastrix wrote: »

Everyone who's saying yes, what? Like seriously?

I'm fine with AI monitoring zone / say chat. Sure.

But auto-reporting private and group messages are a big no-no.

I want to talk to my friend(s) (hence the group chat inclusion) whatever the hell I want. Me and my friends have edgy humor. Not everyone like it. Sure. But why can't I now say stuff to them even though we are the only 2 parties which should see said humor. There is a mechanic when someone doesn't like said stuff: block and report.

Not for some AI watchdog to look at me and say YOU CAN'T SAY THAT to messages which never intended nor hurt anybody. It's fair game if it's a reported message, otherwise hell no.

99% of the time the content of your messages will be used against you. Companies will always use your data in unsaid ways.

Someone said something akin to: 'why would you care if you said nothing wrong?' Like?? Just because I didn't do anything wrong doesn't give you the right to watch my messages constantly and perform live analytics?

Edit:

This reminds of the story of when google flagged an image in someone's google image hosting thing when a dad sent an image to a doctor during covid.

well said.

i'm really not liking how things are going with the game. i been here maybe two years or so....
was in my other MMO for 17. i left that because they started this sort of banning without notice foolishness that bled into my role-playing.

i can't see myself dedicating 17 years to this game if things continue like this. i don't want to be having to worry about looking over my shoulder for every single thing i say. Be it in role play, or in 'private' with friends i've known for years. Seems we are not allowed free speech...i thought that was a right.

DeadlySerious · October 7

No

Amottica wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

Trash talk to friends is not a crime.

And humans review what is flagged. Granted, mistakes can be made, which is why there is an appeal process, but friendly banter is probably easy to see most of the time.

How do you know humans review what is flagged?

DenverRalphy · October 7

Yes

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

Trash talk to friends is not a crime.

And humans review what is flagged. Granted, mistakes can be made, which is why there is an appeal process, but friendly banter is probably easy to see most of the time.

How do you know humans review what is flagged?

Because a ZoS representative has confirmed it right here in these forums in one of the bajillion threads on this topic.

DeadlySerious · October 7

No

DenverRalphy wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

Trash talk to friends is not a crime.

And humans review what is flagged. Granted, mistakes can be made, which is why there is an appeal process, but friendly banter is probably easy to see most of the time.

How do you know humans review what is flagged?

Because a ZoS representative has confirmed it right here in these forums in one of the bajillion threads on this topic.

So people believe that a customer service rep is reviewing the bans because they've said as much in public statements. The only way to know this is happening is to be on staff and part of the review process. This is a believe situation, not a know situation.

valenwood_vegan · October 7

Folks keep appealing to these vague legal concepts like "free speech" and "privacy"... without reference to an actual, specific law, this is completely meaningless.

I am not interested in spending my time doing an extensive review of international law, but "freedom of speech" is usually brought up in reference to the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution... which in short, does indeed protect most speech *from government restriction*. Zenimax is not the government.

Privacy is likely a reference to various data privacy laws enacted in various countries, but again without reference to a specific law, there is little to discuss.

I urge folks once again to actually read the terms of service and related documents, such as the privacy policy, which at least on their face appear to comply with major data privacy regimes such as the GDPR and CCPA.

(Of course if one actually believes that a specific law is being violated, I suggest seeking local legal advice or contacting the relevant authorities who enforce said law.).

Elsonso · October 7

Ingenon wrote: »

To me, this monitoring of messages and taking action seems to be a no-win situation. Both for ZOS and for the overall player community.

It seems clear to me that there are several people posting in this thread who are in favor of ZOS monitoring messages (even in whispers) and taking action (such as bans). And other people posting in this thread who have the opposite view point.

Sounds to me like the overall player community will not be happy no matter which action ZOS takes. And some players will leave the game over this.

ZOS is in trouble like this on many things, to be honest.

I recognize the need for ZOS to monitor all communication between players, and ban for certain things. Most players should never encounter the situation, and should not have to worry about it.

Right now, I do feel like players should worry because ZOS apparently does not have their processes ironed out before pushing them to Live.

DenverRalphy · October 7

Yes

DeadlySerious wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

Trash talk to friends is not a crime.

And humans review what is flagged. Granted, mistakes can be made, which is why there is an appeal process, but friendly banter is probably easy to see most of the time.

How do you know humans review what is flagged?

Because a ZoS representative has confirmed it right here in these forums in one of the bajillion threads on this topic.

So people believe that a customer service rep is reviewing the bans because they've said as much in public statements. The only way to know this is happening is to be on staff and part of the review process. This is a believe situation, not a know situation.

Yeah.. I dunno if you're trolling or just new, because you choose to hide behind anonymity. But the ZoS employee that confirmed it is a very well respected entity on these forums, and you'd do well to take what he speaks as backed with years of integrity.

o_Primate_o · October 7

Yes

If you trash WoodElves once, no big deal, but if ZOS goes thru your history and sees you clearly racist towards WoodElves, then maybe action should be taken.

Syldras · October 7

Jaraal wrote: »

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

It's their game, their servers. You don't have the right to privacy using their chat system.

So when you use your phone, the service provider has the right to hear your calls?
Or when you use internet, your internet provider has the right to track your chats?

Yes, and yes. It's in the terms of service you have to agree to before using their services.

In the USA, that might be legal (I don't know), but in EU law as well as in the laws of several EU countries, communication by phone, e-mail and letters is protected.

This is EU law:
"Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications."
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT

This is, as an example, German law (the 2nd point defines an exception - basically that, if there is a security threat like hints that a person might be planning a severe crime, his communication can be surveilled, according to laws):
"(1) The privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications shall be inviolable.
(2) Restrictions may be ordered only pursuant to a law. If the restriction serves to protect the free democratic basic order or the existence or security of the Federation or of a Land, the law may provide that the person affected shall not be informed of the restriction and that recourse to the courts shall be replaced by a review of the case by agencies and auxiliary agencies appointed by the legislature."
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.html#p0059

It's doubtless, really: No one is allowed to spy on your phone calls, no one is allowed to open your letters (not even your spouse), and internet service providers can't just monitor everything you are doing either.

The big question is how these laws apply to game chats. If they are considered part of the game's functions, it might be seen differently, I don't know.

Ingenon · October 7

Elsonso wrote: »

ZOS is in trouble like this on many things, to be honest.

I recognize the need for ZOS to monitor all communication between players, and ban for certain things. Most players should never encounter the situation, and should not have to worry about it.

Right now, I do feel like players should worry because ZOS apparently does not have their processes ironed out before pushing them to Live.

Clearly ZOS and I have a different approach to no-win situations.

When I am convinced that I am in a no-win situation, I actively look to cut my losses. In this monitoring situation, I would be looking to do only the monitoring that the law required, and nothing more. And I would let my customers know why I was doing the legally required monitoring. "We are monitoring (X) to avoid getting put in a jail cell like what happened to the CEO of Telegram". OK, they probably wouldn't say that, but I would make it clear that the monitoring was required by law.

Separately, I would add a quest to the game, something like the "Which Guild is for You?" quest, which teaches players how to use guild finder. The new quest I would add would teach players how to deal with in game communication from other players that they feel is hurtful to them. The game provides a profanity filter, ability to block other players, ability to report other players behavior, etc. I don't think that ESO can say that they teach how to do any of that to new players at this time, so I think that could be an issue that I would be looking to fix.

SilverBride · October 7

No

I seriously doubt that they are being legally forced to monitor all communications in game. But if they are, does that mean they need to use AI to do it, and are required to take punitive action?

mayasunrising · October 7

Yes

It IS their server. And if you're not posting anything that violates the ToS, you really shouldn't have anything to worry about right?

HatchetHaro · October 7

No

Lovely! Now my private in-game roleplay with my significant other can now be monitored for any potential harmful subjects normally confined to private conversations and roleplay!

Lucky for you lot at ZOS customer support, I like to put on an exhibition!

I wonder how much personal depravity can one customer support representative handle before tapping out.

spartaxoxo · October 7

Amottica wrote: »

Again, they have legal minds that are better suited for this type of thing than anyone who has posted in this thread.

Nobody in this thread has given legal advice. The uncertain legal situation whenever new technology is relevant when discussing the legality of unprecedented behavior by a corporation.

crappyjazz1964 · October 7

No

I voted "no" because the question is whether or not it's acceptable not whether or not they have the right to do it. Of course they have the right to do it but I personally object to it. Not because of privacy or any issue like that but because there is SO much wrong with this game that I cannot believe they are wasting time and resources on THIS.

You can get banned for a funny mild reference to sex in your character name but simulating a sex act over and over again in Cyrodiil? no problem have fun!
You can run bots 24/7 in starter zones, no problem!
You can't mount because you're in combat except the last fight was 20 minutes ago, have fun!
You get stuck somewhere on the landscape THEY created but to get out of it you have to pay gold to them, amazing!
Unless you login and play for an unstated amount of time each day you can't gift something from the crown store to your spouse but hey we'll make sure you can't say some random word that an AI doesn't like in a whisper chat.

Why are they spending time and resources on whisper chats over everything else that is wrong in this game?

spartaxoxo · October 7

DeadlySerious wrote: »

So people believe that a customer service rep is reviewing the bans because they've said as much in public statements. The only way to know this is happening is to be on staff and part of the review process. This is a believe situation, not a know situation.

It's not something ZOS gains anything from lying about so it makes no sense to treat as a lie without proof.

A human being reviewing it doesn't mean anything if that person isn't being given enough context or is overworked by the large increase in volume they have to process

Franchise408 · October 7

I personally don't like the idea of Zenimax monitoring private chats between consensual parties. I.E. if I want to talk explicitly with friends of mine, and they want to partake in the conversation as well, I don't believe that should be monitored.

Private chats *should* be monitored in the instance of someone who doesn't consent to the conversation.

Also, at the end of the day, this is a private company providing a service and product. It does not fall under the 1st amendment in the US. ZOS can enforce a TOS in regards to communication, and they are entitled to do so.

So while I might not like it, it's a valid part of their TOS and it's up to us as players to adhere to it if we want to continue to participate.

Syldras · October 7

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Lovely! Now my private in-game roleplay with my significant other can now be monitored for any potential harmful subjects normally confined to private conversations and roleplay!
Lucky for you lot at ZOS customer support, I like to put on an exhibition!
I wonder how much personal depravity can one customer support representative handle before tapping out.

Considering one person here in the thread wrote they got a warning for writing "dingdong" (you know, the sound a doorbell makes), it probably won't take long.

I'm not sure why you'd want to get banned, though.

HatchetHaro · October 7

No

Syldras wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Lovely! Now my private in-game roleplay with my significant other can now be monitored for any potential harmful subjects normally confined to private conversations and roleplay!
Lucky for you lot at ZOS customer support, I like to put on an exhibition!
I wonder how much personal depravity can one customer support representative handle before tapping out.

Considering one person here in the thread wrote they got a warning for writing "dingdong" (you know, the sound a doorbell makes), it probably won't take long.

I'm not sure why you'd want to get banned, though.

Anime! We're talking about anime and cosplay and art. I don't want everybody in the world to know about my obsession with Junji Ito's works!

You and I both know how some people feel about anime.

Elsonso · October 7

Syldras wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Tra_Lalan wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

It's their game, their servers. You don't have the right to privacy using their chat system.

So when you use your phone, the service provider has the right to hear your calls?
Or when you use internet, your internet provider has the right to track your chats?

Yes, and yes. It's in the terms of service you have to agree to before using their services.

In the USA, that might be legal (I don't know), but in EU law as well as in the laws of several EU countries, communication by phone, e-mail and letters is protected.

This is EU law:
"Everyone has the right to respect for his or her private and family life, home and communications."
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:12012P/TXT

This is, as an example, German law (the 2nd point defines an exception - basically that, if there is a security threat like hints that a person might be planning a severe crime, his communication can be surveilled, according to laws):
"(1) The privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications shall be inviolable.
(2) Restrictions may be ordered only pursuant to a law. If the restriction serves to protect the free democratic basic order or the existence or security of the Federation or of a Land, the law may provide that the person affected shall not be informed of the restriction and that recourse to the courts shall be replaced by a review of the case by agencies and auxiliary agencies appointed by the legislature."
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.html#p0059

It's doubtless, really: No one is allowed to spy on your phone calls, no one is allowed to open your letters (not even your spouse), and internet service providers can't just monitor everything you are doing either.

The big question is how these laws apply to game chats. If they are considered part of the game's functions, it might be seen differently, I don't know.

The bigger question isn't whether it is legal, but who is asking for it.

Nharimlur_Finor · October 7

SilverBride wrote: »

I seriously doubt that they are being legally forced to monitor all communications in game. But if they are, does that mean they need to use AI to do it, and are required to take punitive action?

Maybe not. But conversely, they could potentially be held accountable for any discussions that result in some law being broken somewhere. It's a risk to be mitigated.

Syldras · October 7

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Anime! We're talking about anime and cosplay and art. I don't want everybody in the world to know about my obsession with Junji Ito's works!

Well, now they do. And still it won't cause you any problems unless you use slurs from the filter list while talking about them.

Elsonso wrote: »

The bigger question isn't whether it is legal, but who is asking for it.

I was replying to a post that said that in general, telephone and internet providers were allowed to listen to all phone calls and track all chats because it was in their TOS. Which is certainly not the case, at least not in Europe.

Sleepsin · October 7

mayasunrising wrote: »

It IS their server. And if you're not posting anything that violates the ToS, you really shouldn't have anything to worry about right?

As I've said before. How do you know you are not posting anything that violates the TOS. Not long ago saying "a man can't get pregnant" was simple fact, but now it can be considered derogatory.

Syldras · October 7

Sleepsin wrote: »

As I've said before. How do you know you are not posting anything that violates the TOS. Not long ago saying "a man can't get pregnant" was simple fact, but now it can be considered derogatory.

You might try it. Flag your own post here for moderation. Or ask the mods by tagging them.

RaikaNA · October 7

Yes

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Lovely! Now my private in-game roleplay with my significant other can now be monitored for any potential harmful subjects normally confined to private conversations and roleplay!

Lucky for you lot at ZOS customer support, I like to put on an exhibition!

I wonder how much personal depravity can one customer support representative handle before tapping out.

There is discord for that

Ceridith · October 7

No

DenverRalphy wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

Trash talk to friends is not a crime.

And humans review what is flagged. Granted, mistakes can be made, which is why there is an appeal process, but friendly banter is probably easy to see most of the time.

How do you know humans review what is flagged?

Because a ZoS representative has confirmed it right here in these forums in one of the bajillion threads on this topic.

It's still an issue if they're being manually reviewed, because there is no way that service representatives would be able to review the increased workload from adding automated reports with the same diligence as they would if only manual reports were being generated for them to review.

Service representatives having to rush through tickets for resolution leads to an increase in false positives and mistaken action against players, particularly if there was no reason to open a ticket in the first place when no player was even bothered to begin with. Which makes the automated reporting system a solution looking for problems, rather than a solution to an actual problem.

BagOfBadgers · October 7

Sorry if this had been asked before.

Would asking ZoS what personal data they have retained about you, mean they have to tell you everything they hold, even group chats? Also can you ask for what purpose they need it? Is there a time limit in law which they must respond?

Before anyone says it in the ToS/Agreement/ZENIMAX MEDIA PRIVACY POLICY and I should know it, be reasonable please. I'm Dyslexic so reading is not a strong point and yes I could get a text reader BUT I want to understand it not to be induced to sleep. Also does ZoS need to make "reasonable/mandatory " adjustments to policy delivery so that it accessible to all?

Jaraal · October 7

Yes

Ceridith wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

Trash talk to friends is not a crime.

And humans review what is flagged. Granted, mistakes can be made, which is why there is an appeal process, but friendly banter is probably easy to see most of the time.

How do you know humans review what is flagged?

Because a ZoS representative has confirmed it right here in these forums in one of the bajillion threads on this topic.

It's still an issue if they're being manually reviewed, because there is no way that service representatives would be able to review the increased workload from adding automated reports with the same diligence as they would if only manual reports were being generated for them to review.

Given the perceived diminishing lack of manpower being allocated to the game itself (ie: the stated slowing down of quarterly/yearly story content, etc), it seems most unlikely that they would be increasing the number of customer service representatives. And you're absolutely correct that adding an auto-complaint generator to the manually submitted player reports would definitely increase the workload for the CS team.

Amottica · October 7

Yes

DeadlySerious wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Sleepsin wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

Trash talk to friends is not a crime.

And humans review what is flagged. Granted, mistakes can be made, which is why there is an appeal process, but friendly banter is probably easy to see most of the time.

How do you know humans review what is flagged?

@DeadlySerious

Because on the first page of this thread, the 11th post, a person quoted Kevin's comments talking about this new system. That would constitute an official response from Zenimax.

Yea, I understand as I do not read every post in a 9 page thread.

Amottica · October 7

Yes

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Sorry if this had been asked before.

Would asking ZoS what personal data they have retained about you, mean they have to tell you everything they hold, even group chats? Also can you ask for what purpose they need it? Is there a time limit in law which they must respond?

Before anyone says it in the ToS/Agreement/ZENIMAX MEDIA PRIVACY POLICY and I should know it, be reasonable please. I'm Dyslexic so reading is not a strong point and yes I could get a text reader BUT I want to understand it not to be induced to sleep. Also does ZoS need to make "reasonable/mandatory " adjustments to policy delivery so that it accessible to all?

Zenimax has already told us what they collect and may collect which includes our conversation in chat. Link is below.

https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/privacy-policy