Is it acceptable for zenimax to scour through your messages and take account actions at random?

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton

No

I appreciate the reply, thank you.
It clarified some things that me my friends were wondering about, particularly about who is the main decision maker here.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

As for the name changes, you need to go through the normal appeals process for those. That is Customer Service territory and will leave that to their judgement.

The warns for my character names were just a cherry on top of the coffin, not the nails.
I have already given up on the game.
I only contacted the support because my friends were wondering whether the overmoderation was erroneous and has become less strict so that they could start playing again, but apparently not, thus I also gave my warning to the community today so that others don't repeat the mistakes of being edgy in "private" chats if they want to keep playing.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

To address your general concerns, again to reiterate, there isn't a bot auto-banning people in private chats. The tool being used isn't actively scanning the game, so there is no way for something to trigger a ban in the manner you are describing.

The concern isn't about an automatic bot banning people, it's about the context-blind customer support agents who ban people for absolutely everything petty after the bot detects and notifies them of an edgy word said in private.
Yes, it's in your ToS to not allow ANYTHING vulgar being said whatsoever in any chat (in a game about murder and other bad things, but I digress), but it wasn't enforced prior to September of 2024.
Now it's a deal breaker, and since it's confirmed that the context-blind support agent is the final decision maker rather than you, we're out.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Lastly in the example you shared from Reddit, there is some clarity that is needed there. Again, they need to go through the appeals process as there may be information and context that Customer Service doesn't have or the player may have an extended action history. Again, that is why we do not discuss disciplinary actions. There are details we cannot share and missing details that could impact the end outcome.

They said that they already sent about 10 mails back and forth, with the support doubling down on keeping the penalty. Based on my own experience and what I saw friends had, this is extremely common of the support agents to be allergic to context and keep the penalties regardless of explanations.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

That being said, based on what they shared in their post, even though they were by themselves in a dungeon, the dungeon is a public instance. And using /say is for public proximity chat. It doesn't function as a Whisper or group chat. So if they used a slur, as implied by their post, the public chat filter is going to flag that and the user would be actioned accordingly.

I was banned for the r-word said in a group chat as a consensual joke to my friend in a party that was not reported in September. Support kept telling me that the ban for it was justified, over and over again, you saw it.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Again, don't know if that is why they got flagged, but that is what my guess would be. And that is why the appeal process is there.

The appeal process, according to what I experienced and saw, results in the support keeping the ban, regardless of the consensual context the bad word was said in. It's no use.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

So there isn't a disconnect. Auto-bans in private chats are not happening. I have asked leadership in customer service to confirm this. Again, final actions taken are made by people.

The issue isn't the bot that is banning, it's that the people who make the decision are just as incompetent as an AI would be due to being context-blind.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

If you run into this issue, please go through the appeal process as the best way to sort out a miscommunication. Feel free to reach out if you have issues. I can try to help where I can. Lastly, if you have friends that are running into an issue, please encourage them to either reach out and share a ticket number, or provide you with the ticket number. It makes it easier to go to customer service with ticket numbers to investigate a claim.

Tried already, but the customer support kept overruling your attempts to pacify them time and time again, and then manually digging deeper into the account to find more petty things to warn for. It's no use as long as those overzealous CS agents are the decision makers here, unfortunately.

I appreciate clarifying that they are the final decision makers, because we had a false hope that they are just going rogue against your decision.
Now me and my friends have no doubts whether to stay or not.

kyle.wilson

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

[/Say, /zone, and /group ARE private chats depending where they occur. The general public cannot see the things I say in a private instance, including our homes. How are people expected to be able to discuss things privately with more than one person if these are all automatically considered public chat channels?

So you are right, it does depend. I think in the specific example, and again this is just based on limited understanding of the example as I don't have all of the information, I would guess the flag is because they were in a dungeon, which is viewed as a public space. Different from a home for example, where we expect that to be used privately or a designated /group chat. And you should not be dinged for a private conversation. Again, this is why the appeal is there.

My experience has been an appeals process that assumes guilt with little chance of auccess. There needs to be significant retraining to ensure that all people are clear on the difference between acceptable behavior in a game rated mature and unacceptable.

kyle.wilson

double post

ZOS_Kevin

@SuspensionDispersingAutomaton For what it's worth, I don't think customer service is digging to find things on ppl. I think there are times when they might notice another infraction, but I don't think it is intentional or malicious. But given that is a focus of your concerns, I can take that back to the team to have a broader discussion, just to make it clear that this should not be happening.

Regarding your friends ticket, please get me the ticket number. I am not going to hash out an appeals process for someone else. Especially without having full context. Happy to take the ticket number and reach out to customer service on my end to see if a better resolution can be had. No promises as customer service has final say in these matters, but happy to assist.

@spartaxoxo, you are right that things should be more clear regarding channels being viewed as public vs private. In particular, with the given example of dungeons. Homes, group chats, and whispers should be known private zone areas, but I will take this feedback to the team and see if we can find a clearer way to outline things.

spartaxoxo

@ZOS_Kevin

Thank you! Are you guys able to tell which groups were formed through the activity finder and which were formed by players? I don't mean a full premade group using the activity finder, but ones where the activity or group finder had to find someone. That might be a good way to separate public/private if it exists.

Also, I think it would be a good help to players to know which channels they can speak freely in. A post or help article about it would be good.

Jaimeh

Yes

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

[/Say, /zone, and /group ARE private chats depending where they occur. The general public cannot see the things I say in a private instance, including our homes. How are people expected to be able to discuss things privately with more than one person if these are all automatically considered public chat channels?

So you are right, it does depend. I think in the specific example, and again this is just based on limited understanding of the example as I don't have all of the information, I would guess the flag is because they were in a dungeon, which is viewed as a public space. Different from a home for example, where we expect that to be used privately or a designated /group chat. And you should not be dinged for a private conversation. Again, this is why the appeal is there.

Someone mentioned in another thread (I can't find it now, I think it might have been deleted since it's on the same topic as this one) that they tested this in a player home and still got banned, so it was a default private chat. So something probably happened with the final moderation decision there.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Yes

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

I'm more upset they scan and critique the programs on my pc. Why afraid of Wemod? It's used for single player final fantasy, yet I was threatened with a ban by their detection system.

I accidentally started ESO with wemod active and got jumpscared by that message as well. (I had mine open for GTA 5 story mode).

I think the reason that they are 'afraid' of it, is because while they can detect it is active, they can't detect whether or not it is actively modifying ESO's executable, and can't detect if someone is using the cheats from it. Though, does it even HAVE cheats for ESO? I thought wemod was rather careful about staying away from multiplayer only games?

vsrs_au

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

I'm more upset they scan and critique the programs on my pc. Why afraid of Wemod? It's used for single player final fantasy, yet I was threatened with a ban by their detection system.

I accidentally started ESO with wemod active and got jumpscared by that message as well. (I had mine open for GTA 5 story mode).

I think the reason that they are 'afraid' of it, is because while they can detect it is active, they can't detect whether or not it is actively modifying ESO's executable, and can't detect if someone is using the cheats from it. Though, does it even HAVE cheats for ESO? I thought wemod was rather careful about staying away from multiplayer only games?

No, the WeMod site specifically says ESO is unsupported.

JemadarofCaerSalis

Yes

vsrs_au wrote: »

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

I'm more upset they scan and critique the programs on my pc. Why afraid of Wemod? It's used for single player final fantasy, yet I was threatened with a ban by their detection system.

I accidentally started ESO with wemod active and got jumpscared by that message as well. (I had mine open for GTA 5 story mode).

I think the reason that they are 'afraid' of it, is because while they can detect it is active, they can't detect whether or not it is actively modifying ESO's executable, and can't detect if someone is using the cheats from it. Though, does it even HAVE cheats for ESO? I thought wemod was rather careful about staying away from multiplayer only games?

No, the WeMod site specifically says ESO is unsupported.

Thanks, I had thought that was the case (and I went and looked, but only for one version of the ones they have listed).

SaffronCitrusflower

No

Legal does not always mean appropriate and legitimate.

pklemming

No

No, and this is why I barely play ESO now, and one of the main reasons I cancelled my sub. I can go to other games that do not spy on me. I have been waiting on other games and they are at the point I can play them now.

As new things come out, more options come on to the market. Maybe, at that point ZoS will realise a game is supposed to be fun.

Every patch should have the question asked, "Does this make the game less fun?". This should be first and foremost in the production and design of a game.

Scanning private messages should NEVER be a part of a game. EVER. I can't express how wrong this is, or how annoyed I was. This and the azureblight change were the final straws for me, after 14 years.

SilverBride

No

Players shouldn't be afraid to play a game (or post on forums).

I agree that some things such as blatant hate speech should not be tolerated, but we should not have to walk on egg shells when playing, and certainly not when in private conversations with friends.