Azandar appreciation thread

AnduinTryggva

SickleCider wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SickleCider wrote: »

I can't recall a lot of the lines specifically (it's been a minute), but one I heard all the time from him was, "You wish to engage in badinage?" While not particularly wordy, nor incorrect, no one in contemporary English would greet another this way! Unless, I suppose now, they were trying to be flamboyant, in an attempt to charm or amuse. Maybe that was his goal. Truth be told I didn't spend enough time with him; lines like that made me go, "AAAAGGH!" 🤣

Isn't that word French in origin? To be honest I only knew it from French so far (and I think it's used in classical music too - although quite specifically for some 18th century style, if I'm not completely wrong now). Maybe an attempt to let him use terms related to older arts or loanwords from other languages because ZOS finds that exotic? Although badinage is a word at least. The thing that's cringe to me is the abundance of false Latin they use in Apocrypha. I understand they wanted to employ it, considering it was the lingua franca or common language of scholars for a long time (later it was French for some time), but if one does that, it would be wise to do it properly. It's not like no one could have helped with that, there are still many Europeans who have learned it (in Germany you even need a certificate that you have studied Latin for at minimum 5 years to be allowed to study certain courses, for example medicine and law - so everyone who is a doctor or a lawyer has at least learned Latin sometime in the past).

Thank you for confirming a suspicion I had about the "Latin." 😁 We're not taught that here in the United States so I could only speculate about its authenticity.

The "Latinized" words in ESO are generally completely wrong. That little I still know from my five years Latin course in school.

AnduinTryggva

Syldras wrote: »

SickleCider wrote: »

Maybe they just thought no one would catch it.

I guess so. It's still a pity, in my opinion. Of course one could argue whether it's worth the effort if only a lower percentage of players would notice it anyway, but then again they also include easter eggs that even less people recognize. Also, being thorough also with such things would show special dedication and care for what they're writing.

My guess is they thought it is only necessary to sound Latin as this is a fantasy world where Latin never existed. So they don't have to care for grammar rules etc. It still is cringe to someone with residual memories of five year Latin courses at school.

SickleCider

Syldras wrote: »

SickleCider wrote: »

Right. For example, in the very same DLC, they included little nods to a short story by Lovecraft called "The Colour Out Of Space." Surely the number of people who have read that is lower than the number of people who have studied a little Latin.

Hard to say. Lovecraft grew quite popular here within the last 15 years (I don't know how well-known he is in the USA, of course). It's strange to see how an author that was quite of a niche interest suddenly grew so famous, especially 70 years after his death (I mean, it's not the first time that happens in arts, but I still find it remarkable). When I mentioned him in the early 2000's, no one had a clue. The popularity also shows in film adaptions. For The Colour Out Of Space, there wasn't only one but several movies from 2009 on or so.

He's more well known now than he was a decade or two ago. I attribute part of that phenomenon to FromSoftware's rising popularity. Elden Ring has been very successful, and I reckon people have been playing their back catalogue. Bloodborne was very Lovecraftian. Outside of gaming circles, I'm not sure.

Did you see the "Colour Out Of Space" adaptation with Nick Cage? It was so tonally dissonant and unhinged. 🤣

Syldras

BretonMage wrote: »

With the absence of labels, though, how does one encourage others to try to understand that unusual personal quirks and struggles may be deeply ingrained and deeply felt, and not just annoying whims that one can "overcome"?

I think that, even if it's difficult and takes time (and sometimes the result may only be a compromise or a workaround of some kind), a lot of things can be overcome. Maybe not hypersensibility, or just not understanding how someone acts in some way (I find it especially frustrating if people can't even explain why they did a thing - how would I be able to learn to understand that then?), but I think the human mind is still able to adapt in many cases (as I said, my first partner managed to talk to other people in the end, even if it took him 10 years to get to that point).

From my perspective, if it's a quirk that truly affects others negatively (otherwise it's none of their business anyway), it's also an matter of politeness to at least try to find a solution somehow. There are indeed people (in general, not specifically people with autism) who just use "I'm like that, I can't do anything against it" as a simple excuse without ever having tried to do something. But if you showed efforts, and show that you care for the impact your behaviour has, a person who takes you seriously would recognize that.

But back to the topic of hypersensibility, as I think that's another good example: I think that someone who takes you seriously as a person just accepts if you say that, for example, a certain noise or smell really causes you problems, no matter with a diagnosis or without (Like, why would you even make that problem up? What kind of strange insinuation is that?). If you say something causes you serious problems and someone begins to haggle and doesn't accept your explanation, questions it, or maybe makes fun of it - that's a lost cause anyway and they most probably won't change their mind even if you could present them a diagnosis. And even if it might sound harsh: I'd rather focus on people who listen to what I say and take my words seriously, instead of desperately trying to get someone to believe me, who for some reason is unwilling to do so (which is respectless in itself). Of course I know that such people can't always be avoided, but in such cases I just let them talk and ignore it.

BretonMage wrote: »

In Azandar's case, for example, would he have made so many enemies if they were understanding of his struggles?

I mean, he did a few things that might have been based on not being able to communicate "normally" or by not understanding the problems that his behaviour is causing others, but he also has or had a few simple character flaws that made him act in a not exactly friendly way. I don't think many people would just accept that "because that poor man struggles". And that's probably a type of pity that Azandar would have found rather insulting.

BretonMage wrote: »

I agree that ideally everyone in our society should be understanding and considerate, but unfortunately though most people are kind, many are not, and unkind people don't need a label to act weirdly around us.

Unkind people are unkind regardless of labels, so having one won't protect us either.

BretonMage wrote: »

On the other hand, would a label help us understand our own struggles or those who struggle?

For me, the name or an explanation doesn't change anything at all because it's not a solution for the actual problems (I'm very much focused on solutions, less on explanations). As I said, some smell that makes me nauseous still makes me nauseous if I know the cause is hypersensibility caused by autism.

Syldras

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

The "Latinized" words in ESO are generally completely wrong. That little I still know from my five years Latin course in school.

The words by themselves do exist. "Fulcrum" is a word, "corporea" does exist, so does "chroma". It's just randomly put together in ESO, which is very confusing

SickleCider wrote: »

Did you see the "Colour Out Of Space" adaptation with Nick Cage? It was so tonally dissonant and unhinged. 🤣

No, the newest one I've seen was from 2010.

BretonMage

Syldras wrote: »

I think that, even if it's difficult and takes time (and sometimes the result may only be a compromise or a workaround of some kind), a lot of things can be overcome. Maybe not hypersensibility, or just not understanding how someone acts in some way (I find it especially frustrating if people can't even explain why they did a thing - how would I be able to learn to understand that then?), but I think the human mind is still able to adapt in many cases (as I said, my first partner managed to talk to other people in the end, even if it took him 10 years to get to that point).

From my perspective, if it's a quirk that truly affects others negatively (otherwise it's none of their business anyway), it's also an matter of politeness to at least try to find a solution somehow. There are indeed people (in general, not specifically people with autism) who just use "I'm like that, I can't do anything against it" as a simple excuse without ever having tried to do something. But if you showed efforts, and show that you care for the impact your behaviour has, a person who takes you seriously would recognize that.

But back to the topic of hypersensibility, as I think that's another good example: I think that someone who takes you seriously as a person just accepts if you say that, for example, a certain noise or smell really causes you problems, no matter with a diagnosis or without (Like, why would you even make that problem up? What kind of strange insinuation is that?). If you say something causes you serious problems and someone begins to haggle and doesn't accept your explanation, questions it, or maybe makes fun of it - that's a lost cause anyway and they most probably won't change their mind even if you could present them a diagnosis. And even if it might sound harsh: I'd rather focus on people who listen to what I say and take my words seriously, instead of desperately trying to get someone to believe me, who for some reason is unwilling to do so (which is respectless in itself).

For hypersensibility, sadly most people out there would just say, "just get over it" and get angry if you don't/can't.

It's true that most things require effort and compromise. I do think, though, that it takes understanding on both sides to be able to work to come together on something, and maybe that's where a label might be helpful? (Edit: to be clear, I actually don't like labels, but I think if it helps others to understand this condition better, then why not?)

Also, I think that for some people, functionality is impaired enough that labels are essential for them to get the help they need. And in those cases, it may even be the case that they are making a herculean effort but we on the other side cannot perceive it, as we lack the necessary experience and understanding.

This is all IRL stuff though. For ESO, I don't need Azandar to be labelled, though I think personally it would be nice.

For me, the name or an explanation doesn't change anything at all because it's not a solution for the actual problems (I'm very much focused on solutions, less on explanations). As I said, some smell that makes me nauseous still makes me nauseous if I know the cause is hypersensibility caused by autism.

Often an explanation will help us find a good solution more effectively, I think.

M1SHAAN

Syldras wrote: »

I don't need a diagnosis or a label to take people seriously. If a friend tells me he gets nauseous from a certain smell, it doesn't matter to me if it's neurology, a temporary sensibility caused by an infection, or just a personal quirk. Why would I even demand an explanation? And who would fake nausea in front of a friend, and what for?

Same goes for other things like phobias, for example. If I see a friend gets really nervous in a crowded place, I'll suggest we go somewhere calmer. He doesn't even have to tell me he's phobic, I don't care for an official diagnosis, it doesn't even matter if it's even a fear clinically relevant enough to be diagnosed as a true phobia; I see he's unwell, so I react accordingly.

Also, people who aren't considerate if someone tells them they are unwell (about a smell, noise, a big crowd of people, or anything else really) usually don't care for a medical diagnosis either. They still won't care or even mock the person more.

I guess it's just a personal failing for me then. I conceptually understand that other people have different sensory experiences than me, and of course I want people to be comfortable. But it's difficult for me to intuitively understand, so if I'm not careful I end up assuming things aren't serious. I've unintentionally hurt people in the past because of this, which I'm not proud of.

From a different angle, people's expression of their internal experience doesn't always line up with what they're actually experiencing, people have reasons to exaggerate or minimize. Someone might make a big deal of a small discomfort if they thought their small discomforts were more important than other people's feelings (this would be consistent with readings of Azandar as arrogant). On the other hand, someone (aka me) might say things are fine when they're actually very distressed, because they don't want to cause a fuss or bother anyone.

Also, a diagnosis certainly isn't helpful for everyone. However, as someone who paid a lot of money for an evaluation and ended up being a late-diagnosed autistic person, I sought diagnosis for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I'm on the verge of failing/dropping out of graduate school, so my healthcare team thought it would be helpful to get an official diagnosis so I'll have an easier time getting accommodations that will help me through it (for example, not needing to share a hotel room when travelling to a conference). Secondly, I have seriously internalized the "just work harder / get over it / you must be lazy" rhetoric when it comes to my personal struggles (which is very unhelpful when you have problems you can't just "try harder" your way out of), so an official diagnosis helps me take a step back and say "no, brain, I can't just brute force my way through this issue. We can work around it and mitigate it and try to make things easier, but the problem I'm having is not a character flaw and I should not hate myself for it". This doesn't relate directly to Azandar or needing/wanting to know if other people are autistic, but I thought it'd be informative to share why someone might want a diagnosis for themself.

SilverBride

I think this is being completely over analyzed. Some people are just quirky. It's a personality type rather than a medical or mental diagnosis.

spartaxoxo

I mean it absolutely could be meant to be a hint that Azandar is neurodivergent. And I don't think it's overthinking if someone who knows about it can see themselves/people they know in him. That's just relating to a character.

Edit

Also, he mentions that he keeps Mora at "tentacles length" because he doesn't want to end up like Shelreni. And that he has witnessed other scholars going mad trying to decipher black books often. His quests make it clear he's always been like that. And he mentions that he thinks his brain is wired differently. Taken together, I can see why some people may think he is supposed to be neurodivergent even if they don't outright state the term. It's pretty obvious it's not solely that he's a Mora cultist.

Syldras

BretonMage wrote: »

For hypersensibility, sadly most people out there would just say, "just get over it" and get angry if you don't/can't.

I don't share that experience. My friends respect a no without discussions (as it should be) and during work, I never got into any situations where hypersensibility would have been a problem, but that may depend on the field of work.

BretonMage wrote: »

Often an explanation will help us find a good solution more effectively, I think.

It really depends on the condition, but it's not like there was a "healing" for autism (not that I wanted that anyway, I wouldn't want someone to mess with my brain; "normal" or not, it functions perfectly well, thank you).

In general I have the impression that society was more accepting before autism gained much media attention, to be honest, because people were just seen as a bit "quirky". It does make a difference after all if someone is perceived as "one of us, but a little quirky" or as being in a different box altogether.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I conceptually understand that other people have different sensory experiences than me, and of course I want people to be comfortable. But it's difficult for me to intuitively understand, so if I'm not careful I end up assuming things aren't serious. I've unintentionally hurt people in the past because of this, which I'm not proud of.

I also don't intuitively understand 99,9% of mankind, which isn't exactly surprising because that's one of the central points of autism, but since I know that this is the case, I can just ask people (and take what they tell me seriously) instead of making assumptions that might be wrong.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

From a different angle, people's expression of their internal experience doesn't always line up with what they're actually experiencing, people have reasons to exaggerate or minimize. Someone might make a big deal of a small discomfort if they thought their small discomforts were more important than other people's feelings (this would be consistent with readings of Azandar as arrogant).

That sounds like quite a theoretical problem to me, to be honest. Outside of work, we are able to freely choose who to surround ourselves with, and I just don't choose obnoxious people.

M1SHAAN wrote: »

On the other hand, someone (aka me) might say things are fine when they're actually very distressed, because they don't want to cause a fuss or bother anyone.

That's unfortunate, but no one can read our thoughts, so it is our task to utter them, as well as our feelings, needs and limits. It might be hard, especially for people who struggle to communicate (no matter if because of a medical condition of because they lack self-confidence which is a thing that happens to completely "normal" people), but in the end that's something one has to learn. Growing up isn't easy, and for some, it's even harder, but in the end there are life experiences that everyone has to master. Getting through unavoidable uncomfortable situations sometimes is a normal part of life.

SilverBride

I've never seen Azandar as anything more than an older intelligent man (He is a Scholar, darn it!") who has picked up a few quirks on his life journey.

Syldras

SilverBride wrote: »

I've never seen Azandar as anything more than an older intelligent man (He is a Scholar, darn it!") who has picked up a few quirks on his life journey.

He might have autism or he might have picked up his quirks somewhere else, that's correct. There are different reasons for being like that. I think people sometimes underestimate how much a solitary lifestyle or being engrossed in some complicated work for a longer time can change one's behaviour and let one lose touch with "normalcy" and get a little quirky (personally, I've noticed during the covid lockdowns...).

And while I'm very aware that autism exists, I'm actually no fan of making everything a diagnosis because it seems to narrow what is considered normal - I don't think it's good if every quirk is automatically seen as a medical symptom.

Actually I tend to see autism more as a predisposition for quirks than an illness anyway (I mean, in the end it's a slightly different way the brain functions, that's all) - except for the very extreme cases; I don't really think it's helpful that the diagnosis "autism" contains everything from from absolutely brilliant people whose only problem is noise sensitivity and who live an absolutely fine and fulfilling life, to people who have a severe intellectual disability, can't say a word and can't live on their own. These people don't need the same help and support (many on the highly intelligent end don't need any support at all), so putting them into one box doesn't seem very useful to me.

Anyway, I like that it's not speficied why Azandar is the way he is, because people can draw their own conclusions and interpret it the way that feels right or familiar to them. Being able to project one's own idea onto a fictonal person's motivation might even help making them more likeable.

LalMirchi

I treat all my companions as friends, warts and all. Nobody's perfect and all my companions are continuously tweaked to the best of their abilities. I only unlock them on my mains and then very selectively on my alts (Ember, for example, does not belong with my Templar lawful good alt). That said I unlocked Azandar (& Sharp) on all my alts during the Secrets of the Telvanni event.

Azandar is my trusty tanking buddy and makes "old man noises" just like me. His abhorrence for fungi was a hindrance but with the excellent No Interact addon I can now confidently take him out in the wilderness. However he is not my first pick when running around farming and foraging, Azandar is more a meat-shield with lot's of buffs for us both. Of all the companions to date he's the best in test when fighting difficult foes.

Here's my list of items in the No Interact addon (includes the "pretty" insects that Mirri gets upset about)

Blue Entoloma
Emetic Russula
Imp Stool
Luminous Russula
Namira's Rot
Stinkhorn
Violet Coprinus
White Cap
Torchbug
Butterfly

[Edited spell-lingua]

BretonMage

Syldras wrote: »

In general I have the impression that society was more accepting before autism gained much media attention, to be honest, because people were just seen as a bit "quirky". It does make a difference after all if someone is perceived as "one of us, but a little quirky" or as being in a different box altogether.

If someone can manage "one of us but a little quirky", that would be great, regardless of era. Even in the past, one could be ostracised even with the smallest difference in behaviour. The way you carried yourself, the way you spoke, the clothes you wore. The difference is that now with the gaming of social media, the haters have become a lot more prominent.

Anyhoo. Back to Azandar. Love him. ZOS did a great job with him.

Syldras

BretonMage wrote: »

If someone can manage "one of us but a little quirky", that would be great, regardless of era.

Depends on the time and surroundings, of course. I can only speak of my country and I meant the 80's until maybe early 2000's. And it's not just that haters spread their messages through social media now, the society as a whole feels much more fractured than it was just few decades ago, which is a direct outcome of people strongly identifying as members of different groups and labels, including the belief that these identifications make them completely different to everyone outside these groups and understanding wouldn't be possible anyway. The feeling of being one people - or even better: just humans - despite all personal differences is gone.

Although that would be what mankinds needs: to concentrate on our similarities to recognize that despite all differences, there's the same human core - and therefore the only conclusion that makes sense is to treat everyone with consideration and respect (which would also include listening to people, their limits and their needs, and taking them seriously - no matter if "normal" or "not normal", "healthy" or "ill", and without long debates and aggressively demanding reasons for everything).

BretonMage wrote: »

Even in the past, one could be ostracised even with the smallest difference in behaviour. The way you carried yourself, the way you spoke, the clothes you wore.

I know that very well. But what I see at this point is that times already had been better once and now the situation is declining again.

Anyway, I think Azandar is a really well-written companion and I hope that, if they offer more companions in the future, the quality will remain on that level. Of course it would also be great if they add new quests to existing companions some time.