Azandar appreciation thread

SickleCider · October 3

Syldras wrote: »

SickleCider wrote: »

I find some of his voice lines grating. They can be pretentiously verbose, like he's got a pocket thesaurus always handy and he's trying to reach some sort of word count.

Can you give me a few examples? I play the German translation and there, he doesn't sound overly complicated. The only terms that seem uncommon just sound a bit quirky and sometimes "dated" - like terms that were more common during the childhood or youth of people who are old today and that aren't regularly used today anymore.

In case of Leramil (as noted, in the German translation) I found it more annoying that she often uses terms that seem a bit more educated, but not as complicated that no one would comprehend them (normal formal or technical language so to say) - but then always makes remarks as if the player character would be too dumb to understand them anyway.

For context, the English voice lines tend toward very contemporary English. That's my baseline. In a way, it's almost more about culture than the language itself. I don't know how it is in other language translations.

I can't recall a lot of the lines specifically (it's been a minute), but one I heard all the time from him was, "You wish to engage in badinage?" While not particularly wordy, nor incorrect, no one in contemporary English would greet another this way! Unless, I suppose now, they were trying to be flamboyant, in an attempt to charm or amuse. Maybe that was his goal. Truth be told I didn't spend enough time with him; lines like that made me go, "AAAAGGH!" 🤣

It's ultimately a "me" problem and others are welcome to disagree. I like some of the ideas I've read in this thread supposing that the writers were intentionally being satirical, or that Azandar may be neurodivergently coded. I like looking at things through a different lens. I may even change my mind later.

[Edit] Punctuation

[Edit the second] I agree, Leramil is the worst. That bothered me about her, too. The reason I was making that face, Leramil, had nothing to do with an inability to understand.

SickleCider · October 3

TaSheen wrote: »

Oh, I could quote "old man noises" forever, since husband is 90+.... I'm considerably younger ("only" 77) and I do my best to not make "old woman noises" because to husband it seems like I'm mocking him.... I'm not, but hey - one does what one needs to do to keep the peace.

I remember being in college. I was twice the age of my peers. I was taking this still life drawing course, as you do. They would not give us anything to sit on besides "drawing horses" (which were not made with consideration for the human spine nor wrists). My sciatica would start acting up after hours of standing at the easel so sometimes I'd end up sitting on the filthy floor. The sounds I made trying to get up off that floor every day prompted all the irreverent kids to start calling me "Dad." I'm a woman. "Old man noises" belong to everyone. 🤣 I wonder if I'll have graduated to "Grandpa" if they could see me now.

Syldras · October 3

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

With Leramil I see this as a sort of running joke. She tries to talk like she thinks Mora would talk and likes to use metaphores like she believes Mora would use. While explaining something in this manner she realizes that she actually talks in a too complicated manner and that she strays apart.
For me it sounds like an expert in a specific science field talking to someone outside his world and only in the middle realizes that he uses the jargon common in his world but which is very specific to this world.
These kind of professional jargons do exist.

I really have to look up the English lines. The sad thing about the German translation is that I was thinking "Finally someone who talks like a normal (although slightly above-average educated) adult who might have something interesting to say!" - and all I get is her stopping mid-sentence and telling me I wouldn't understand anyway.

SickleCider wrote: »

I can't recall a lot of the lines specifically (it's been a minute), but one I heard all the time from him was, "You wish to engage in badinage?" While not particularly wordy, nor incorrect, no one in contemporary English would greet another this way! Unless, I suppose now, they were trying to be flamboyant, in an attempt to charm or amuse. Maybe that was his goal. Truth be told I didn't spend enough time with him; lines like that made me go, "AAAAGGH!" 🤣

Isn't that word French in origin? To be honest I only knew it from French so far (and I think it's used in classical music too - although quite specifically for some 18th century style, if I'm not completely wrong now). Maybe an attempt to let him use terms related to older arts or loanwords from other languages because ZOS finds that exotic?

Although badinage is a word at least. The thing that's cringe to me is the abundance of false Latin they use in Apocrypha. I understand they wanted to employ it, considering it was the lingua franca or common language of scholars for a long time (later it was French for some time), but if one does that, it would be wise to do it properly. It's not like no one could have helped with that, there are still many Europeans who have learned it (in Germany you even need a certificate that you have studied Latin for at minimum 5 years to be allowed to study certain courses, for example medicine and law - so everyone who is a doctor or a lawyer has at least learned Latin sometime in the past).

BretonMage wrote: »

I think Azandar is supposed to be slightly neurodivergent? (Going off one of his idle lines: "You have most likely noticed, but all my life I have erm. Struggled. With communication, commiseration. My intellect is attuned to a frequency all its own."). So I think him going deep into esoterica with us is not surprising to me.

Most adult people with autism and high intelligence still understand that if they want to communicate their ideas it's important to phrase things on a level that the public may comprehend if they don't want the conversation to be useless. That it might be off sometimes - fine. But not generally. Although I think in case of Azandar there are several factors at play, like having been in Apocrypha or having spent a long time alone. After a while you probably just lose touch with the normal world.

BretonMage · October 3

Syldras wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

I think Azandar is supposed to be slightly neurodivergent? (Going off one of his idle lines: "You have most likely noticed, but all my life I have erm. Struggled. With communication, commiseration. My intellect is attuned to a frequency all its own."). So I think him going deep into esoterica with us is not surprising to me.

Most adult people with autism and high intelligence still understand that if they want to communicate their ideas it's important to phrase things on a level that the public may comprehend if they don't want the conversation to be useless. That it might be off sometimes - fine. But not generally. Although I think in case of Azandar there are several factors at play, like having been in Apocrypha or having spent a long time alone. After a while you probably just lose touch with the normal world.

He mentions in that idle line that he struggled all his life with communication and commiseration, so it sounds like it is a characteristic innate to him. I have often read that struggling with social communication is a common sign of ASD, even if adults may learn to hide it well enough to get by. We don't know if he is, of course, it seems to be only implied, but it would be interesting if he was.

Syldras · October 3

BretonMage wrote: »

He mentions in that idle line that he struggled all his life with communication and commiseration, so it sounds like it is a characteristic innate to him. I have often read that struggling with social communication is a common sign of ASD, even if adults may learn to hide it well enough to get by. We don't know if he is, of course, it seems to be only implied, but it would be interesting if he was.

What would be interesting about it? I'm wondering because in the end, a person is a person, either likeable or not.

BretonMage · October 3

Syldras wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

He mentions in that idle line that he struggled all his life with communication and commiseration, so it sounds like it is a characteristic innate to him. I have often read that struggling with social communication is a common sign of ASD, even if adults may learn to hide it well enough to get by. We don't know if he is, of course, it seems to be only implied, but it would be interesting if he was.

What would be interesting about it? I'm wondering because in the end, a person is a person, either likeable or not.

Characters can be likeable in different ways and to different people.

I find immensely interesting to see characters with unique personalities in stories. Azandar admits to struggling with social interactions, is obviously (from his comments about the Mages Guild and former associates) not the easiest person to get on with, but he is nonetheless amusing and endearing to the player (subject to personal taste, of course).

It's unique and refreshing. And I think it would be all the more unique if he was neurodivergent, seeing as there aren't any such companions in RPGs that I've played. It would also explain somewhat the extent of the struggles he faced.

Syldras · October 3

BretonMage wrote: »

I find immensely interesting to see characters with unique personalities in stories. Azandar admits to struggling with social interactions, is obviously (from his comments about the Mages Guild and former associates) not the easiest person to get on with, but he is nonetheless amusing and endearing to the player (subject to personal taste, of course). It's unique and refreshing. And I think it would be all the more unique if he was neurodivergent.

I just don't understand how giving him a label would change anything? His character traits remain exactly the same.

(I think he's written as having autism, btw, he also has hypersensibility to smells and sensory differences are quite common for people with autism - never everyone, of course, but it's often the case).

SilverBride · October 3

Syldras wrote: »

(I think he's written as having autism, btw, he also has hypersensibility to smells and sensory differences are quite common for people with autism - never everyone, of course, but it's often the case).

Where is this written?

Syldras · October 3

SilverBride wrote: »

Where is this written?

He has a strong dislike when it comes to the smell of coffee. Same for mushrooms. I also think he mentions that some creatures smell horrid. It just seems to occur more often than with other companions that he mentions these things. And the more I think of it, didn't he even mention the smell of different places during his questline?

Of course it's a speculation that his sense of smell is oversensitive, but it felt like that to me. Also, there's a difference between just disliking a smell or finding it outright disgusting or getting nausea from it (I know what I'm talking about, I get nauseous from coconut oil. It's no choice, it literally smells like bile to me. And I'm only saying "bile" because a more direct word would probably be censored. Always a joy in summer when people are using it for their hair or as perfume).

SilverBride · October 3

Syldras wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Where is this written?

He has a strong dislike when it comes to the smell of coffee. Same for mushrooms. I also think he mentions that some creatures smell horrid. It just seems to occur more often than with other companions that he mentions these things. And the more I think of it, didn't he even mention the smell of different places during his questline?

Of course it's a speculation that his sense of smell is oversensitive, but it felt like that to me. Also, there's a difference between just disliking a smell or finding it outright disgusting or getting nausea from it (I know what I'm talking about, I get nauseous from coconut oil. It's no choice, it literally smells like bile to me. And I'm only saying "bile" because a more direct word would probably be censored. Always a joy in summer when people are using it for their hair or as perfume).

Those are conclusions that may or may not be accurate. Does it actually state somewhere that he is autistic?

Syldras · October 3

SilverBride wrote: »

Those are conclusions that may or may not be accurate. Does it actually state somewhere that he is autistic?

It doesn't (and I've never claimed he was called autistic in the game, I wrote I have the feeling that he was written to give that impression - of course that's open to interpretation).

And I actually like it that it isn't openly said. The term autism didn't exist until 1900whatever and would feel out of place in a pseudo-medieval fantasy game to me. And in general, I don't like obviously labelling characters as something (let alone introducing them as such to the public), I'd rather see people concentrating on someone's character traits and find out things themselves. I think people are well able to read between the lines. And even if not, it's not a problem either.

What makes Azandar unique is his character. It doesn't matter if there's a label put on that, it doesn't change a thing about how he thinks, behaves, what kind of person he is. I generally wish that people would focus more on how a person actually behaves instead of which labels they have or not.

SickleCider · October 3

Syldras wrote: »

SickleCider wrote: »

I can't recall a lot of the lines specifically (it's been a minute), but one I heard all the time from him was, "You wish to engage in badinage?" While not particularly wordy, nor incorrect, no one in contemporary English would greet another this way! Unless, I suppose now, they were trying to be flamboyant, in an attempt to charm or amuse. Maybe that was his goal. Truth be told I didn't spend enough time with him; lines like that made me go, "AAAAGGH!" 🤣

Isn't that word French in origin? To be honest I only knew it from French so far (and I think it's used in classical music too - although quite specifically for some 18th century style, if I'm not completely wrong now). Maybe an attempt to let him use terms related to older arts or loanwords from other languages because ZOS finds that exotic? Although badinage is a word at least. The thing that's cringe to me is the abundance of false Latin they use in Apocrypha. I understand they wanted to employ it, considering it was the lingua franca or common language of scholars for a long time (later it was French for some time), but if one does that, it would be wise to do it properly. It's not like no one could have helped with that, there are still many Europeans who have learned it (in Germany you even need a certificate that you have studied Latin for at minimum 5 years to be allowed to study certain courses, for example medicine and law - so everyone who is a doctor or a lawyer has at least learned Latin sometime in the past).

Thank you for confirming a suspicion I had about the "Latin." 😁 We're not taught that here in the United States so I could only speculate about its authenticity.

Syldras · October 3

SickleCider wrote: »

Thank you for confirming a suspicion I had about the "Latin." 😁 We're not taught that here in the United States so I could only speculate about its authenticity.

Well, the words are usually right on their own, but the grammar is completely wrong. Or rather there's none in the way the terms are used in ESO. It's like someone just looked into a dictionary, picked words from the list of possible translations and put them together, oblivious to the fact that for some languages, the gender and the case of a word matter and affect how a noun or an adjective is written.

SickleCider · October 3

Syldras wrote: »

SickleCider wrote: »

Thank you for confirming a suspicion I had about the "Latin." 😁 We're not taught that here in the United States so I could only speculate about its authenticity.

Well, the words are usually right on their own, but the grammar is completely wrong. Or rather there's none in the way the terms are used in ESO. It's like someone just looked into a dictionary, picked words from the list of possible translations and put them together, oblivious to the fact that for some languages, the gender and the case of a word matter and affect how a noun or an adjective is written.

That sounds like a very native English speaker mistake to make. I don't know how someone gets a job writing for a video game without some passing knowledge about how other languages may work, though. Maybe they just thought no one would catch it.

Syldras · October 3

SickleCider wrote: »

Maybe they just thought no one would catch it.

I guess so. It's still a pity, in my opinion. Of course one could argue whether it's worth the effort if only a lower percentage of players would notice it anyway, but then again they also include easter eggs that even less people recognize. Also, being thorough also with such things would show special dedication and care for what they're writing.

SilverBride · October 3

Syldras wrote: »

I generally wish that people would focus more on how a person actually behaves instead of which labels they have or not.

This!

Shara_Wynn · October 3

All the companions are cheesy. But Azandar is Cheese Factor 10.

Syldras · October 3

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

All the companions are cheesy.

Don't let Bastian hear that.

M1SHAAN · October 4

Syldras wrote: »

What makes Azandar unique is his character. It doesn't matter if there's a label put on that, it doesn't change a thing about how he thinks, behaves, what kind of person he is. I generally wish that people would focus more on how a person actually behaves instead of which labels they have or not.

I don't think ZOS needs to explicitly label Azandar as autistic, but I think viewing him as such gives you a different perspective on the character than if you don't. In the real world, an Autism diagnosis means (among other things) that your sensory sensitivities are legitimized and taken seriously. For me, viewing Azandar though an autistic lens is the difference between interpreting his complaints about mushrooms and coffee as petty whining vs genuine distress.

On another note, it wouldn't be unprecedented for ZOS to write a character with an autistic phenotype. I don't remember where, but in some interview or livestream somebody casually mentioned that the Drake of Blades from the Imperial City questline was intended to be autistic. I'm glad they didn't make a big deal of it, but it's also nice to have explicit confirmation it was intentional, especially since I've heard that autistic people sometimes get pushback for "headcanoning" various characters in other media as autistic.

Syldras · October 4

M1SHAAN wrote: »

I don't think ZOS needs to explicitly label Azandar as autistic, but I think viewing him as such gives you a different perspective on the character than if you don't. In the real world, an Autism diagnosis means (among other things) that your sensory sensitivities are legitimized and taken seriously. For me, viewing Azandar though an autistic lens is the difference between interpreting his complaints about mushrooms and coffee as petty whining vs genuine distress.

I don't need a diagnosis or a label to take people seriously. If a friend tells me he gets nauseous from a certain smell, it doesn't matter to me if it's neurology, a temporary sensibility caused by an infection, or just a personal quirk. Why would I even demand an explanation? And who would fake nausea in front of a friend, and what for?

Same goes for other things like phobias, for example. If I see a friend gets really nervous in a crowded place, I'll suggest we go somewhere calmer. He doesn't even have to tell me he's phobic, I don't care for an official diagnosis, it doesn't even matter if it's even a fear clinically relevant enough to be diagnosed as a true phobia; I see he's unwell, so I react accordingly.

Also, people who aren't considerate if someone tells them they are unwell (about a smell, noise, a big crowd of people, or anything else really) usually don't care for a medical diagnosis either. They still won't care or even mock the person more.

spartaxoxo · October 4

One thing I liked about Azandar is they made it clear it's even the smell for the things he doesn't like. I think it helped to make him received better than Bastian, who simply can't eat cheese as far as we know. They tried to use dialogue/letters to strongly imply we share/try to share the food with them off screen with Bastian and Mirri anytime we craft it. But since players aren't shown this and it's easy to miss, it comes off really bizarre. But if it upsets your stomach so much even the smell makes you nauseous, then it's understandable why they wouldn't want to be around someone doing that, which I think improves the perception.

BretonMage · October 4

Syldras wrote: »

And in general, I don't like obviously labelling characters as something (let alone introducing them as such to the public), I'd rather see people concentrating on someone's character traits and find out things themselves. I think people are well able to read between the lines.

And we are reading between the lines here.

I will always support fleshing out a character, getting more information than less. It's less a question of labels, and more the reason behind a characteristic. And if he was in fact neurodivergent, then his comment on his intelligence being wired differently would seem to have a medical basis rather than him just being arrogant.

Syldras · October 4

BretonMage wrote: »

And if he was in fact neurodivergent, then his comment on his intelligence being wired differently would seem to have a medical basis rather than him just being arrogant.

How is it arrogant to say one feels to be wired differently? Especially if it is an explanation for always having felt estranged by most people or being unable to understand them, which isn't exactly something to brag about?

And who would diagnose something like that in the world of Tamriel? Especially since "autism" is a modern term and "neurodivergence" wasn't a thing until 1999 or so.

It's even rooted in a specific cultural view. One that has a narrow differentiation between which ways to think were "normal" and which not. Cultures who don't do that might not be bothered by different ways of seeing and understanding the world, or at least not enough to put people into two different boxes for that. Who knows, maybe what would be considered "neurodivergent" in the real world would be considered "normal" for Dunmer or Altmer?

SickleCider · October 4

Syldras wrote: »

SickleCider wrote: »

Maybe they just thought no one would catch it.

I guess so. It's still a pity, in my opinion. Of course one could argue whether it's worth the effort if only a lower percentage of players would notice it anyway, but then again they also include easter eggs that even less people recognize. Also, being thorough also with such things would show special dedication and care for what they're writing.

Right. For example, in the very same DLC, they included little nods to a short story by Lovecraft called "The Colour Out Of Space." Surely the number of people who have read that is lower than the number of people who have studied a little Latin.

Syldras · October 4

SickleCider wrote: »

Right. For example, in the very same DLC, they included little nods to a short story by Lovecraft called "The Colour Out Of Space." Surely the number of people who have read that is lower than the number of people who have studied a little Latin.

Hard to say. Lovecraft grew quite popular here within the last 15 years (I don't know how well-known he is in the USA, of course). It's strange to see how an author that was quite of a niche interest suddenly grew so famous, especially 70 years after his death (I mean, it's not the first time that happens in arts, but I still find it remarkable). When I mentioned him in the early 2000's, no one had a clue. The popularity also shows in film adaptions. For The Colour Out Of Space, there wasn't only one but several movies from 2009 on or so.

BretonMage · October 4

Syldras wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

And if he was in fact neurodivergent, then his comment on his intelligence being wired differently would seem to have a medical basis rather than him just being arrogant.

How is it arrogant to say one feels to be wired differently? Especially if it is an explanation for always having felt estranged by most people or being unable to understand them, which isn't exactly something to brag about?

Have you travelled with him? A lot of his dialogue comes across as arrogant. I mean, he IS a bit arrogant, but I think that part of it is due less to an inflated sense of self-importance (which was how I saw him at first) and more to the way he communicates his confidence.

It's even rooted in a specific cultural view. One that has a narrow differentiation between which ways to think were "normal" and which not. Cultures who don't do that might not be bothered by different ways of seeing and understanding the world, or at least not enough to put people into two different boxes for that. Who knows, maybe what would be considered "neurodivergent" in the real world would be considered "normal" for Dunmer or Altmer?

Azandar himself has said that he's wired differently, so obviously he has a sense of being "not normal". So much so, in fact, that he turned his back on his roots, and made several enemies in the Mages Guild and the Psijics. So, no, he is not "normal". I think it's unfortunate that he has suffered from it, and I really sympathised with him when he said that line about struggling with communication. I myself think his "not normalcy" is wonderful; it sets him apart from other NPCs and other companions, and is what makes him unique and fun. It would not be a bad thing to understand and celebrate it.

[Edit: I'm putting "normal" and "not normal" in quotes because I don't really agree being wired differently should be seen to be abnormal. I think we are all wired differently from each other anyway, and we are all on some sort of spectrum when it comes to personalities and behaviours.]

I'm not exactly sure where you want to go with this. I am always for greater understanding of people, the hows and whys of who they are, and I assume most of us here appreciate good content too. We don't need the devs to specifically slap a named label on things, though really, saying "wired differently" is as clear an indication as anything they could name anyway. And if they felt it appropriate to delve further into his character, I would welcome it. If not, I still enjoy him the way he is.

SugaComa · October 4

Azandar reminds me a Vinzzini from a princess bride .. both are so quotable , I'm sure who ever created him took inspiration from Witty Wallace Shawn's brilliant character .

katanagirl1 · October 4

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

SickleCider wrote: »

I find some of his voice lines grating. They can be pretentiously verbose, like he's got a pocket thesaurus always handy and he's trying to reach some sort of word count.

Can you give me a few examples? I play the German translation and there, he doesn't sound overly complicated. The only terms that seem uncommon just sound a bit quirky and sometimes "dated" - like terms that were more common during the childhood or youth of people who are old today and that aren't regularly used today anymore.

In case of Leramil (as noted, in the German translation) I found it more annoying that she often uses terms that seem a bit more educated, but not as complicated that no one would comprehend them (normal formal or technical language so to say) - but then always makes remarks as if the player character would be too dumb to understand them anyway.

With Leramil I see this as a sort of running joke. She tries to talk like she thinks Mora would talk and likes to use metaphores like she believes Mora would use. While explaining something in this manner she realizes that she actually talks in a too complicated manner and that she strays apart.

For me it sounds like an expert in a specific science field talking to someone outside his world and only in the middle realizes that he uses the jargon common in his world but which is very specific to this world.

These kind of professional jargons do exist.

Leramil is how I sound when someone asks me what I do with my time and I try to explain that I play video games and use all the acronyms, then my husband reminds me that no one else knows what those acronyms mean, lol.

As for professionals, a few are aware enough to explain things in a way that laymen would understand, but not many in my field based on my experience. Then some just want to impress you by using complicated words anyway.

Syldras · October 4

BretonMage wrote: »

Have you travelled with him? A lot of his dialogue comes across as arrogant. I mean, he IS a bit arrogant, but I think that part of it is due less to an inflated sense of self-importance (which was how I saw him at first) and more to the way he communicates his confidence.

I've been travelling with him almost the whole time since I picked him up months ago, with the only exception being pulling out a different companion in the Archive for levelling purposes every now and then. And yes, I know he's a bit arrogant. But exactly the line "All my life I have struggled with communication, commiseration." does not seem haughty to me. I'm not sure how the voice acting for him is in the English version, but in the German one he seems to make a earnest confession and his tone sounds rather embarrassed and meek. He's not proud of it. His whole story, to me, also seems like a story of finally understanding what problems he caused and trying to fix them, as much as it is still possible.

It's not uncommon, by the way, for people with autism to be seen as arrogant or even to be perceived as insulting where there was no intention to be unfriendly.

BretonMage wrote: »

Azandar himself has said that he's wired differently, so obviously he has a sense of being "not normal". So much so, in fact, that he turned his back on his roots, and made several enemies in the Mages Guild and the Psijics. So, no, he is not "normal".

While something might not be a common behaviour, it's often still an arbitrary decision in psychology, influenced by society's current morals and norms, whether it is seen as an "illness" or "syndrome" or whether it's considered just a quirk or a rarer variant of normal behaviour. The World Health Organization just removed homosexuality from their list of mental illnesses in the year 1990 (had I been born a decade earlier, my first relationship would have made me one of these "certified mentally ill") - a very late correction of a mistake made decades ago. The same way there are currently people with autism fighting against the pathologization of their way of functioning, btw. But, what I actually was about is that we don't know if the world of TES sees autism as a kind of disease that might be diagnosed by a doctor (or healer or what ever medical personnel), or whether it is no concept and to everyone, Azandar is just a slightly pompous and strangely behaving man. If autism isn't a term in that medieval fantasy world (and in real world history, mental illness is a rather late concept) which term should people use to describe him? How would he call himself? Who would be able to diagnose him? Him saying about himself that he feels that his brain functions differently somehow would probably the best wording for the situation that we could get.

BretonMage wrote: »

I'm not exactly sure where you want to go with this.

I'm trying to understand, because I just don't get how labelling or putting Azandar's behaviour into a box would change anything. He's the way he is, nothing about that changes whether ZOS officially calls him autistic, neurodivergent, quirky, or nothing at all.

Since other people seem to find labels important: My first partner, with whom I lived for 8 years, was diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, which is considered a type of autism, when he was a child. When he started elementary school, he was sent to a doctor because he refused to talk to anyone, except for his parents. They found out that his hearing is normal, his intelligence above average (don't know the result of that early test, but later in high school he scored over 130, I think 134), and some time later he got his autism diagnosis. Mutism or muteness of some type isn't rare in people with autism. He was allowed to participate in lessons in written form (not because autism was diagnosed, but because of muteness which is a diagnosis in itself) and always had high grades (which remained like that through his whole school career and also later at university). From age 10 on or so he slowly began to talk to people outside his family, although only when neccessary, and he never really enjoyed it. I was in fact the first person he liked talking to, so it was probably natural that we would become something like family sooner or later.

Anyway, we were quite similar, had many very similar quirks (although I didn't make any noises at all until age 2 and then spoke in complete and correct sentences

), about the same level of intelligence (I also had a test albeit in middle school, scored 137 which I had a huge laugh about as most questions were mathematical and I actually think I'm totally useless at maths - since them I'm questioning the eligibility of these tests), the same strange dislikes, and even if I had other relationships I truly cherished later, he was the human I could relate to most (although there's a close second, but he's not exactly ordinary either).

He was 100% sure that I'm also on the spectrum. I never even considered getting it diagnosed though, because how would it help? I would waste a lot of precious time that I could use for things I actually find enjoyable to phone a doctor, find an appointment, go there several times, talk to some stranger for hours (yuck) - what for? People would remain as incomprehensible as before, some smells and noises just as jarring (and except for that, I'm actually feeling really fine, so no need to change anything), a piece of paper making me a certified autist wouldn't magically change any of that (it might even make things worse because I want to be treated like everyone else, not have people behave weirdly around me out of pity, insecurity or ridicule, which is also the reason I don't usually mention it). Or maybe it would have turned out it wasn't autism but the reasons were unknown - then also nothing in the world would have changed, not for me, not for others. That's why I'm wondering why some people find labels or diagnoses so important in this case. I'd rather prefer people to be attentive and considerate all the time, and see other humans as individuals instead of members of some group or specific demographic.

BretonMage · October 4

Thank you very much for your detailed explanation, I really appreciate it.

Syldras wrote: »

The same way there are currently people with autism fighting against the pathologization of their way of functioning, btw. But, what I actually was about is that we don't know if the world of TES sees autism as a kind of disease that might be diagnosed by a doctor (or healer or what ever medical personnel), or whether it is no concept and to everyone, Azandar is just a slightly pompous and strangely behaving man. If autism isn't a term in that medieval fantasy world (and in real world history, mental illness is a rather late concept) which term should people use to describe him? How would he call himself? Who would be able to diagnose him? Him saying about himself that he feels that his brain functions differently somehow would probably the best wording for the situation that we could get.

No, I don't think at all that autism should be pathologised, merely understood, and I agree there are dangers in separating people into groups like that. With the absence of labels, though, how does one encourage others to try to understand that unusual personal quirks and struggles may be deeply ingrained and deeply felt, and not just annoying whims that one can "overcome"? (I say this as someone with annoying quirks that others have tried to persuade me to overcome).

In Azandar's case, for example, would he have made so many enemies if they were understanding of his struggles?

BretonMage wrote: »

I'm not exactly sure where you want to go with this.

I'm trying to understand, because I just don't get how labelling or putting Azandar's behaviour into a box would change anything. He's the way he is, nothing about that changes whether ZOS officially calls him autistic, neurodivergent, quirky, or nothing at all.

Since other people seem to find labels important: My first partner, with whom I lived for 8 years, was diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, which is considered a type of autism, when he was a child. When he started elementary school, he was sent to a doctor because he refused to talk to anyone, except for his parents. They found out that his hearing is normal, his intelligence above average (don't know the result of that early test, but later in high school he scored over 130, I think 134), and some time later he got his autism diagnosis. Mutism or muteness of some type isn't rare in people with autism. He was allowed to participate in lessons in written form (not because autism was diagnosed, but because of muteness which is a diagnosis in itself) and always had high grades (which remained like that through his whole school career and also later at university). From age 10 on or so he slowly began to talk to people outside his family, although only when neccessary, and he never really enjoyed it. I was in fact the first person he liked talking to, so it was probably natural that we would become something like family sooner or later.

Anyway, we were quite similar, had many very similar quirks (although I didn't make any noises at all until age 2 and then spoke in complete and correct sentences ), about the same level of intelligence (I also had a test albeit in middle school, scored 137 which I had a huge laugh about as most questions were mathematical and I actually think I'm totally useless at maths - since them I'm questioning the eligibility of these tests), the same strange dislikes, and even if I had other relationships I truly cherished later, he was the human I could relate to most (although there's a close second, but he's not exactly ordinary either).

He was 100% sure that I'm also on the spectrum. I never even considered getting it diagnosed though, because how would it help? I would waste a lot of precious time that I could use for things I actually find enjoyable to phone a doctor, find an appointment, go there several times, talk to some stranger for hours (yuck) - what for? People would remain as incomprehensible as before, some smells and noises just as jarring (and except for that, I'm actually feeling really fine, so no need to change anything), a piece of paper making me a certified autist wouldn't magically change any of that (it might even make things worse because I want to be treated like everyone else, not have people behave weirdly around me out of pity, insecurity or ridicule, which is also the reason I don't usually mention it). Or maybe it would have turned out it wasn't autism but the reasons were unknown - then also nothing in the world would have changed, not for me, not for others. That's why I'm wondering why some people find labels or diagnoses so important in this case. I'd rather prefer people to be attentive and considerate all the time, and see other humans as individuals instead of members of some group or specific demographic.

Thank you again for sharing. Tbh I'm also in the same position. I often read lists of autism symptoms and side-eye them wondering if I should get a diagnosis, lol. I agree that ideally everyone in our society should be understanding and considerate, but unfortunately though most people are kind, many are not, and unkind people don't need a label to act weirdly around us. On the other hand, would a label help us understand our own struggles or those who struggle? It's not the easiest situation, for sure.

In Azandar's case, it's probably true that autism as a concept does not exist in Tamriel. When one's existence is threatened daily by monsters and daedra, your neighbour's personality quirks probably don't feature highly on your list. This really is just for our own understanding of his character. I think he's written as a neurodivergent character, and I find him more interesting for it, because it helps me understand that it really is how he's wired. ZOS may be content with calling him "wired differently" and that would be fine with me. I have to admit, it's one of my favourite lines of his, it's so candid and heartfelt.