Enemy Classification Tags for Endeavours Need to Be Updated

disky

There have been multiple instances when I'm trying to complete an endeavour in which I've found myself fighting something that seems like it should count but it doesn't, and this should change. Some examples:

Thunderbugs aren't tagged as Chitinous Foes
Kotu Gava aren't tagged as Insects
Wild Animals aren't tagged as Beasts
Beasts aren't tagged as Wild Animals

There are a number of situations like this, and I really think it would benefit the game if ZOS updated their tags so that they make more sense.

Syldras

I think I'd already be fine if they added a complete list by mouse-over (or a small icon next to the task that opens an info box, if that's more convenient for others) .

Destai

I'd just like an in-game dictionary of what these actually mean.

disky

Syldras wrote: »

I think I'd already be fine if they added a complete list by mouse-over (or a small icon next to the task that opens an info box, if that's more convenient for others) .

A full list might help to elucidate the way things are now, but it wouldn't solve the problem that we would still have, which is that if the endeavour says "Kill X Insects" and you're killing insects but they aren't the insects the endeavour wants you to kill, it feels like the feature has been left unfinished.

I'm not privy to the challenges of developing ESO but this seems like it should be tag-based, and all that should need to be done is to set the appropriate tags on the creatures that are missing them.

virtus753

disky wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I think I'd already be fine if they added a complete list by mouse-over (or a small icon next to the task that opens an info box, if that's more convenient for others) .

A full list might help to elucidate the way things are now, but it wouldn't solve the problem that we would still have, which is that if the endeavour says "Kill X Insects" and you're killing insects but they aren't the insects the endeavour wants you to kill, it feels like the feature has been left unfinished.

I'm not privy to the challenges of developing ESO but this seems like it should be tag-based, and all that should need to be done is to set the appropriate tags on the creatures that are missing them.

Most of these count for different "kill" endeavors, and it feels like they don't want the same targets double-dipping across multiple such endeavors.

For example, aggressive beasts don't count for "kill wild animals" because they already count for "kill beasts." So "wild animals" excludes those and counts only certain 1-hp non-aggressive critters.

It means their tags do not line up with reality or even logic, but rather they are assigned administratively.

disky

virtus753 wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I think I'd already be fine if they added a complete list by mouse-over (or a small icon next to the task that opens an info box, if that's more convenient for others) .

A full list might help to elucidate the way things are now, but it wouldn't solve the problem that we would still have, which is that if the endeavour says "Kill X Insects" and you're killing insects but they aren't the insects the endeavour wants you to kill, it feels like the feature has been left unfinished.

I'm not privy to the challenges of developing ESO but this seems like it should be tag-based, and all that should need to be done is to set the appropriate tags on the creatures that are missing them.

Most of these count for different "kill" endeavors, and it feels like they don't want the same targets double-dipping across multiple such endeavors.

For example, aggressive beasts don't count for "kill wild animals" because they already count for "kill beasts." So "wild animals" excludes those and counts only certain 1-hp non-aggressive critters.

It means their tags do not line up with reality or even logic, but rather they are assigned administratively.

I understand why they use the beasts/wild animals phrasing, but that doesn't mean it isn't still unintuitive. If they're going to separate them like this, then they should phrase the endeavour in a different way. Like, use "aggressive/hostile/predatory animals" to differentiate those that attack players rather than simply use the vague beasts/wild animals terms. The way things are now, unless you actually select the endeavour and read its description (to get only a partial idea of what to look for) then you'll have no idea about the particulars. Unless you go look it up in a wiki, which to me, feels like a failure on the part of ZOS to properly explain what's going on in the game.

But also, why does it matter if they're "double-dipping"? Who really cares? If you're telling people to go kill insects that happen to have a chitinous exoskeleton, why shouldn't that creature count for both endeavours?

I_killed_Vivec

I checked today's after killing a thunderbug, so I went for mud crabs after that.

The ones that really confuse me are the citizen/humanoid/human ones. I run around killing "people" and find half of them don't count

Reginald_leBlem

Currently "Humanoid foes in West Weald" is frustrating me. SOMETIMES members of the Recollection count but not all of them. What?

MidniteOwl1913

I think the dev's need to be reminded of the definition of humanoid.

Humanoid: a nonhuman creature or being with characteristics (such as the ability to walk upright) resembling those of a human

If they use the word in a way that is not as defined they *really* need to specify in the endeavor what humanoids they mean. Vampires don't count and those are humans. Altered humans but humans.

Syldras

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I think the dev's need to be reminded of the definition of humanoid.

I think they just use "humanoid" instead of "human" because it also includes Elves, Khajiit and Argonians. That's exactly what these endeavours mean: Characters from the playable races.

kringled_1

Do maormer count for the kill humanoid endeavor? I never tested that.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Atronachs don’t count as Daedra either. It’s become a personal pet peeve of mine.

jaws343

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I checked today's after killing a thunderbug, so I went for mud crabs after that.

The ones that really confuse me are the citizen/humanoid/human ones. I run around killing "people" and find half of them don't count

Some might be vampires.

Danikat

I agree it's confusing.

I think the problem is that endeavours use the games internal classifications for creature types and each creature can only be 1 type. So for example a vampire can't be both humanoid and undead, even though both are accurate descriptions in an every day sense, and someone decided it's more important they're classed as undead, so they don't count as humanoid.

If I'm right it probably isn't easy to change either (even if the actual process is just adding additional tags) because it probably also determines things like the type of loot they drop, achievements they count towards, which ones fight each other and maybe their abilities, and all those things would be affected if creatures had multiple types.

Once (and only once) one of the daily endeavours was 'destroy 5 stone atronachs' and that caused a lot of confusion because clearly labelled stone atronachs are very rare (only appearing in certain dungeons and quests), then someone discovered that the totems summoned by some Murkmire bosses count. They don't look like stone atronachs and aren't called that, but they count as the same creature type - likely because a developer needed to make totems and aside from the appearance stone atronachs did everything required, so they reskinned them and put them in rather than re-make something that already exists.

Then later on someone pulled a list of which creature types appear where to identify ones for endeavours - saw that stone atronachs spawn in open world maps and included them, and it was only when players who don't have access to all the back-end info tried to interpret it that the problem became apparent. (I suspect that's why we've never had that endeavour again.)

I think that's also why the names can be confusing or oddly worded too, because the people naming creature types didn't expect players to see the categories, only other developers who probably don't care what it actually says as long as they know what it means and who will have access to documentation to tell them that.

I do think it would be a good idea for them to update the wording for the endeavours to make it clearer, because there's some categories which cause confusion every single time they come up, like 'humanoid', 'chitinous foes' vs 'insects', 'people' vs 'humanoid' etc.

MidniteOwl1913

Syldras wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I think the dev's need to be reminded of the definition of humanoid.

I think they just use "humanoid" instead of "human" because it also includes Elves, Khajiit and Argonians. That's exactly what these endeavours mean: Characters from the playable races.

Vampires are playable and they don't count.

Syldras

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Vampires are playable and they don't count.

I should have written: a completely average, unaltered, alive specimen from one of the playable races.

katanagirl1

I used to refer to a page on UESP that showed the different classifications, but I can’t seem to find it now.

driosketch

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Currently "Humanoid foes in West Weald" is frustrating me. SOMETIMES members of the Recollection count but not all of them. What?

Same. After doing all three West Weald dailies and clearing a public dungeon, I am sitting a grand total of 0 humanoids killed. 0! Everything is either undead or daedra or something else. And, ok first off, I know where there are regular humans. There's a spot in the east where I've done a 15 kill daily endeavor before, but I'm not going to grind a spot competing with other players when there is a zone event going on.

Pick. A. Different. Enemy. Type. ZOS.

Something less confusing and more common, please.

AlnilamE

I couldn't find any barbarians the other day and ended up doing something else instead.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Atronachs don’t count as Daedra either. It’s become a personal pet peeve of mine.

Do they count as Elementals?

zaria

disky wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I think I'd already be fine if they added a complete list by mouse-over (or a small icon next to the task that opens an info box, if that's more convenient for others) .

A full list might help to elucidate the way things are now, but it wouldn't solve the problem that we would still have, which is that if the endeavour says "Kill X Insects" and you're killing insects but they aren't the insects the endeavour wants you to kill, it feels like the feature has been left unfinished.

I'm not privy to the challenges of developing ESO but this seems like it should be tag-based, and all that should need to be done is to set the appropriate tags on the creatures that are missing them.

Most of these count for different "kill" endeavors, and it feels like they don't want the same targets double-dipping across multiple such endeavors.

For example, aggressive beasts don't count for "kill wild animals" because they already count for "kill beasts." So "wild animals" excludes those and counts only certain 1-hp non-aggressive critters.

It means their tags do not line up with reality or even logic, but rather they are assigned administratively.

I understand why they use the beasts/wild animals phrasing, but that doesn't mean it isn't still unintuitive. If they're going to separate them like this, then they should phrase the endeavour in a different way. Like, use "aggressive/hostile/predatory animals" to differentiate those that attack players rather than simply use the vague beasts/wild animals terms. The way things are now, unless you actually select the endeavour and read its description (to get only a partial idea of what to look for) then you'll have no idea about the particulars. Unless you go look it up in a wiki, which to me, feels like a failure on the part of ZOS to properly explain what's going on in the game.

But also, why does it matter if they're "double-dipping"? Who really cares? If you're telling people to go kill insects that happen to have a chitinous exoskeleton, why shouldn't that creature count for both endeavours?

Double dipping is an database and developing issue. Usually it require an separate table so an argonian vampire is both an humanoid, an undead and an lizard and enemy player in PvP.
You could have an list of identifiers and use an text search as its unlikely to change often. But its still an job.
But yes many of the categories is weird, just explaining it better would help a lot.

disky

zaria wrote: »

Double dipping is an database and developing issue. Usually it require an separate table so an argonian vampire is both an humanoid, an undead and an lizard and enemy player in PvP.
You could have an list of identifiers and use an text search as its unlikely to change often. But its still an job.
But yes many of the categories is weird, just explaining it better would help a lot.

Again, I don't know what's going on in the back-end, but wouldn't it be possible to attach a set of tags to a monster entry without needing a call to a separate DB/table? Just add an additional column with the tags to the monster DB, or update the one that's already there if it exists with the additional identifiers.

I'm sure I'm making it out to be simpler than it actually is, but I can't think of a better solution, and this seems like a problem that should be fixed.

disky

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I used to refer to a page on UESP that showed the different classifications, but I can’t seem to find it now.

Props to UESP for always having our back, but like I said in #6, I don't think it should be necessary to check UESP for something like this. We all know what insects should be, we know what humanoids look like, we know what wild animals are. ZOS just needs to take the steps to make their own system more intuitive.