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What is the intended counterplay to "ball groups" in PVP?
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CrazyKitty✭✭✭✭✭CatoUnchained wrote: »ForumSavant wrote: »Major_Toughness wrote: »ForumSavant wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »ForumSavant wrote: »JustLovely wrote: ».ForumSavant wrote: »Theist_VII wrote: »Anyone saying that the counter to a ball group should be another ball group has a severe lack of understanding to why ball groups exist.
Players don’t ball up to take a map, they do it to farm AP off of others as a tried and true gold farming method.
They don’t do it for the challenge, and they aren’t looking to fight other ball groups, oftentimes, the leaders of said groups will communicate with enemy groups just to be SURE that they don’t run into one another.
Players that are getting grieved by ball groups should have a means of building to protect others, and that’s what Azureblight was.
All players had to do were spread out, I’m sure a coordinated group could manage that? Right?
This is the most common misconception I see on here. It's what most pugs spread amongst themselves. Most ballgroups look for fights against other ballgroups, the ballgroups that often times lose those fights obviously don't want to engage in them, but will still to kill other ballgroups if they see them fighting another group. Ballgrouos don't secretly message each other to avoid each other lol
I can't remember the last time I witnessed a ball group fighting another ball group. The last time I saw a ball vs. ball situation was at least 3 years ago and when we had 24 man group size and a much, much higher population cap.
Then you just aren't playing the game. There are multiple streams of people who ballgroup that constantly engage with other ballgroups and kill each other. Streams aside, I can enter cyro almost any day of the week and find different groups fighting each other, not avoiding. People spread the weirdest misinformation on the forums and it's usually the people who lack any type of PvP experience.
It's virtually guaranteed I have more PvP experience than you and almost anyone else. I have 5 GO's on my main account and run in guild raid for 2 hours every day, and an additional 1-6 hours solo every day since 2015. I have 3 accounts, one for each faction, because back when Cyrodiil was in it's hey day I had friends I wanted to play with on every faction. I'm in the top 1% of players who've spent the most time in ESO and PvP is my main focus because it's never boring.
It's a fact that ball groups very rarely fight each other. The pop cap is so low now it's uncommon for any faction to have more than one ball group running at a time now days. Remember, a zerg is not a ball group. And beyond that, there aren't but a fraction of ESO streamers that there were in the past. They've almost all moved on to other games that can support their "job".
Just because you make up stories doesn't make it "fact." You said you haven't seen ballgroups fight each other in 3 years, there's no way that is the case. I can show you vods of 6 different ballgroups fighting each other in just the last week. This is the case every week. Stop pushing false narratives to try and get your way, this is why nothing actually gets done about it, because they look at random comments that just aren't true and move on.
Can you post those vods?
Bobby constantly runs his group into other groups and attempts to zerg them down.
Paleorc usually deletes his vod but this is the most recent one he kept up
Novellli always looks to fight other groups
Temperedone also streams them fighting other ballgroups weekly
These fights happen daily and people who play want to act like they don't fight each other, I never see them back off fighting each other unless they are waiting for one to siege the door down so they can get in behind them.
Bobby does not run a ball group. Paleorc also does not run a ball group. Are you sure you know what a ball group is? You appear to not know the difference between a ball group and and just a bunch of players in the same place at the same time. I can't speak to the other videos because I only play PC NA, but you definitely missed the mark by a mile with claiming Bobby runs a ball group. Bobby actually spends most of his time just standing around apparently AFK. Paleorc usually plays solo, but he does occasionally play in a group, but it's not a ball group. Not all groups are ball groups.
Uhhhhh no....... Paleorc is not solo, he hasn't been solo in years, he will occasionally be but he primarily now plays in a group. LoM IS a coordinated ballgroup, idk what kind of definition you are basing yours off of but it seems to be inherently wrong. Bobbys group is just a bunch of pugs said to build blight or some random meta set and follow him around, they are not coordinated in anyway nor have ever been, and also the only reason they attack other groups is because his entire group runs blightseed, matter of fact he usually sits around the faction because his group alone cannot even handle fighting a ballgroup half the time. Lastly, most ballgroups DO fight eachother, what makes you think they don't?ForumSavant wrote: »CatoUnchained wrote: »ForumSavant wrote: »Major_Toughness wrote: »ForumSavant wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »ForumSavant wrote: »JustLovely wrote: ».ForumSavant wrote: »Theist_VII wrote: »Anyone saying that the counter to a ball group should be another ball group has a severe lack of understanding to why ball groups exist.
Players don’t ball up to take a map, they do it to farm AP off of others as a tried and true gold farming method.
They don’t do it for the challenge, and they aren’t looking to fight other ball groups, oftentimes, the leaders of said groups will communicate with enemy groups just to be SURE that they don’t run into one another.
Players that are getting grieved by ball groups should have a means of building to protect others, and that’s what Azureblight was.
All players had to do were spread out, I’m sure a coordinated group could manage that? Right?
This is the most common misconception I see on here. It's what most pugs spread amongst themselves. Most ballgroups look for fights against other ballgroups, the ballgroups that often times lose those fights obviously don't want to engage in them, but will still to kill other ballgroups if they see them fighting another group. Ballgrouos don't secretly message each other to avoid each other lol
I can't remember the last time I witnessed a ball group fighting another ball group. The last time I saw a ball vs. ball situation was at least 3 years ago and when we had 24 man group size and a much, much higher population cap.
Then you just aren't playing the game. There are multiple streams of people who ballgroup that constantly engage with other ballgroups and kill each other. Streams aside, I can enter cyro almost any day of the week and find different groups fighting each other, not avoiding. People spread the weirdest misinformation on the forums and it's usually the people who lack any type of PvP experience.
It's virtually guaranteed I have more PvP experience than you and almost anyone else. I have 5 GO's on my main account and run in guild raid for 2 hours every day, and an additional 1-6 hours solo every day since 2015. I have 3 accounts, one for each faction, because back when Cyrodiil was in it's hey day I had friends I wanted to play with on every faction. I'm in the top 1% of players who've spent the most time in ESO and PvP is my main focus because it's never boring.
It's a fact that ball groups very rarely fight each other. The pop cap is so low now it's uncommon for any faction to have more than one ball group running at a time now days. Remember, a zerg is not a ball group. And beyond that, there aren't but a fraction of ESO streamers that there were in the past. They've almost all moved on to other games that can support their "job".
Just because you make up stories doesn't make it "fact." You said you haven't seen ballgroups fight each other in 3 years, there's no way that is the case. I can show you vods of 6 different ballgroups fighting each other in just the last week. This is the case every week. Stop pushing false narratives to try and get your way, this is why nothing actually gets done about it, because they look at random comments that just aren't true and move on.
Can you post those vods?
Bobby constantly runs his group into other groups and attempts to zerg them down.
Paleorc usually deletes his vod but this is the most recent one he kept up
Novellli always looks to fight other groups
Temperedone also streams them fighting other ballgroups weekly
These fights happen daily and people who play want to act like they don't fight each other, I never see them back off fighting each other unless they are waiting for one to siege the door down so they can get in behind them.
Bobby does not run a ball group. Paleorc also does not run a ball group. Are you sure you know what a ball group is? You appear to not know the difference between a ball group and and just a bunch of players in the same place at the same time. I can't speak to the other videos because I only play PC NA, but you definitely missed the mark by a mile with claiming Bobby runs a ball group. Bobby actually spends most of his time just standing around apparently AFK. Paleorc usually plays solo, but he does occasionally play in a group, but it's not a ball group. Not all groups are ball groups.
I also play on PC NA every day. What you see happening is exactly the same thing I see happening.
There are groups and there are ball groups. They are very different. Anyone can form a group and benefit from cross healing. Forming a ball group is a totally different thing. Ball group builds tend to be so specialized that they are totally impotent outside of the group. Seems like only those of us who've actually played in ball groups before know the difference.
What are some ballgroups on PC/NA then?
Indriks, LoM, Fake News, Adrestria, Enchiladas, 3.5, SLAYER, BONED, Barcodes, Xans Army, Army Of The Covenant, Wolves Of Fenris, Jaegers, Kids With Issues, Nefarrius 51, Wolves of Evermore, F-Tier.
Prob more that im not remembering.
Slayer is getting close to being a ball group, but they aren't quite there yet. Xans army isn't even close. N51 is an official ball group. Kids with issues are trying, but not a ball group. Tyr was probably the most extreme ball group I know of, but I might be biased because I ran with them for a while, but they retired.2 -
ForumSavant✭✭✭✭CrazyKitty wrote: »CatoUnchained wrote: »ForumSavant wrote: »Major_Toughness wrote: »ForumSavant wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »ForumSavant wrote: »JustLovely wrote: ».ForumSavant wrote: »Theist_VII wrote: »Anyone saying that the counter to a ball group should be another ball group has a severe lack of understanding to why ball groups exist.
Players don’t ball up to take a map, they do it to farm AP off of others as a tried and true gold farming method.
They don’t do it for the challenge, and they aren’t looking to fight other ball groups, oftentimes, the leaders of said groups will communicate with enemy groups just to be SURE that they don’t run into one another.
Players that are getting grieved by ball groups should have a means of building to protect others, and that’s what Azureblight was.
All players had to do were spread out, I’m sure a coordinated group could manage that? Right?
This is the most common misconception I see on here. It's what most pugs spread amongst themselves. Most ballgroups look for fights against other ballgroups, the ballgroups that often times lose those fights obviously don't want to engage in them, but will still to kill other ballgroups if they see them fighting another group. Ballgrouos don't secretly message each other to avoid each other lol
I can't remember the last time I witnessed a ball group fighting another ball group. The last time I saw a ball vs. ball situation was at least 3 years ago and when we had 24 man group size and a much, much higher population cap.
Then you just aren't playing the game. There are multiple streams of people who ballgroup that constantly engage with other ballgroups and kill each other. Streams aside, I can enter cyro almost any day of the week and find different groups fighting each other, not avoiding. People spread the weirdest misinformation on the forums and it's usually the people who lack any type of PvP experience.
It's virtually guaranteed I have more PvP experience than you and almost anyone else. I have 5 GO's on my main account and run in guild raid for 2 hours every day, and an additional 1-6 hours solo every day since 2015. I have 3 accounts, one for each faction, because back when Cyrodiil was in it's hey day I had friends I wanted to play with on every faction. I'm in the top 1% of players who've spent the most time in ESO and PvP is my main focus because it's never boring.
It's a fact that ball groups very rarely fight each other. The pop cap is so low now it's uncommon for any faction to have more than one ball group running at a time now days. Remember, a zerg is not a ball group. And beyond that, there aren't but a fraction of ESO streamers that there were in the past. They've almost all moved on to other games that can support their "job".
Just because you make up stories doesn't make it "fact." You said you haven't seen ballgroups fight each other in 3 years, there's no way that is the case. I can show you vods of 6 different ballgroups fighting each other in just the last week. This is the case every week. Stop pushing false narratives to try and get your way, this is why nothing actually gets done about it, because they look at random comments that just aren't true and move on.
Can you post those vods?
Bobby constantly runs his group into other groups and attempts to zerg them down.
Paleorc usually deletes his vod but this is the most recent one he kept up
Novellli always looks to fight other groups
Temperedone also streams them fighting other ballgroups weekly
These fights happen daily and people who play want to act like they don't fight each other, I never see them back off fighting each other unless they are waiting for one to siege the door down so they can get in behind them.
Bobby does not run a ball group. Paleorc also does not run a ball group. Are you sure you know what a ball group is? You appear to not know the difference between a ball group and and just a bunch of players in the same place at the same time. I can't speak to the other videos because I only play PC NA, but you definitely missed the mark by a mile with claiming Bobby runs a ball group. Bobby actually spends most of his time just standing around apparently AFK. Paleorc usually plays solo, but he does occasionally play in a group, but it's not a ball group. Not all groups are ball groups.
Uhhhhh no....... Paleorc is not solo, he hasn't been solo in years, he will occasionally be but he primarily now plays in a group. LoM IS a coordinated ballgroup, idk what kind of definition you are basing yours off of but it seems to be inherently wrong. Bobbys group is just a bunch of pugs said to build blight or some random meta set and follow him around, they are not coordinated in anyway nor have ever been, and also the only reason they attack other groups is because his entire group runs blightseed, matter of fact he usually sits around the faction because his group alone cannot even handle fighting a ballgroup half the time. Lastly, most ballgroups DO fight eachother, what makes you think they don't?ForumSavant wrote: »CatoUnchained wrote: »ForumSavant wrote: »Major_Toughness wrote: »ForumSavant wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »ForumSavant wrote: »JustLovely wrote: ».ForumSavant wrote: »Theist_VII wrote: »Anyone saying that the counter to a ball group should be another ball group has a severe lack of understanding to why ball groups exist.
Players don’t ball up to take a map, they do it to farm AP off of others as a tried and true gold farming method.
They don’t do it for the challenge, and they aren’t looking to fight other ball groups, oftentimes, the leaders of said groups will communicate with enemy groups just to be SURE that they don’t run into one another.
Players that are getting grieved by ball groups should have a means of building to protect others, and that’s what Azureblight was.
All players had to do were spread out, I’m sure a coordinated group could manage that? Right?
This is the most common misconception I see on here. It's what most pugs spread amongst themselves. Most ballgroups look for fights against other ballgroups, the ballgroups that often times lose those fights obviously don't want to engage in them, but will still to kill other ballgroups if they see them fighting another group. Ballgrouos don't secretly message each other to avoid each other lol
I can't remember the last time I witnessed a ball group fighting another ball group. The last time I saw a ball vs. ball situation was at least 3 years ago and when we had 24 man group size and a much, much higher population cap.
Then you just aren't playing the game. There are multiple streams of people who ballgroup that constantly engage with other ballgroups and kill each other. Streams aside, I can enter cyro almost any day of the week and find different groups fighting each other, not avoiding. People spread the weirdest misinformation on the forums and it's usually the people who lack any type of PvP experience.
It's virtually guaranteed I have more PvP experience than you and almost anyone else. I have 5 GO's on my main account and run in guild raid for 2 hours every day, and an additional 1-6 hours solo every day since 2015. I have 3 accounts, one for each faction, because back when Cyrodiil was in it's hey day I had friends I wanted to play with on every faction. I'm in the top 1% of players who've spent the most time in ESO and PvP is my main focus because it's never boring.
It's a fact that ball groups very rarely fight each other. The pop cap is so low now it's uncommon for any faction to have more than one ball group running at a time now days. Remember, a zerg is not a ball group. And beyond that, there aren't but a fraction of ESO streamers that there were in the past. They've almost all moved on to other games that can support their "job".
Just because you make up stories doesn't make it "fact." You said you haven't seen ballgroups fight each other in 3 years, there's no way that is the case. I can show you vods of 6 different ballgroups fighting each other in just the last week. This is the case every week. Stop pushing false narratives to try and get your way, this is why nothing actually gets done about it, because they look at random comments that just aren't true and move on.
Can you post those vods?
Bobby constantly runs his group into other groups and attempts to zerg them down.
Paleorc usually deletes his vod but this is the most recent one he kept up
Novellli always looks to fight other groups
Temperedone also streams them fighting other ballgroups weekly
These fights happen daily and people who play want to act like they don't fight each other, I never see them back off fighting each other unless they are waiting for one to siege the door down so they can get in behind them.
Bobby does not run a ball group. Paleorc also does not run a ball group. Are you sure you know what a ball group is? You appear to not know the difference between a ball group and and just a bunch of players in the same place at the same time. I can't speak to the other videos because I only play PC NA, but you definitely missed the mark by a mile with claiming Bobby runs a ball group. Bobby actually spends most of his time just standing around apparently AFK. Paleorc usually plays solo, but he does occasionally play in a group, but it's not a ball group. Not all groups are ball groups.
I also play on PC NA every day. What you see happening is exactly the same thing I see happening.
There are groups and there are ball groups. They are very different. Anyone can form a group and benefit from cross healing. Forming a ball group is a totally different thing. Ball group builds tend to be so specialized that they are totally impotent outside of the group. Seems like only those of us who've actually played in ball groups before know the difference.
What are some ballgroups on PC/NA then?
Indriks, LoM, Fake News, Adrestria, Enchiladas, 3.5, SLAYER, BONED, Barcodes, Xans Army, Army Of The Covenant, Wolves Of Fenris, Jaegers, Kids With Issues, Nefarrius 51, Wolves of Evermore, F-Tier.
Prob more that im not remembering.
Slayer is getting close to being a ball group, but they aren't quite there yet. Xans army isn't even close. N51 is an official ball group. Kids with issues are trying, but not a ball group. Tyr was probably the most extreme ball group I know of, but I might be biased because I ran with them for a while, but they retired.
What does this comment even mean, what is your differentiating factor between what is and what isn't a ballgroup regarding these groups?0 -
ioResult✭✭✭
If you have to ask this question then you don't know what an actual ball group is.ForumSavant wrote: »What does this comment even mean, what is your differentiating factor between what is and what isn't a ballgroup regarding these groups?
All ball group is more than an zerg, even much more than an organized zerg. It is constructed just like a trials group in PvE is constructed: with very narrowly defined roles where members are required to have specific builds, specific CP, specific skills, and a pre-defined specific rotation they do to fulfill their narrow role in the group - exactly as these same players do in their PvE Trials group.
As of now, because of shield stacking, heal stacking and other silliness introduced by Scribing, these ball groups are being designed to literally be immortal. They can go anywhere on the map they want, run the whole map if they want, take any keep they want, hold that keep for as long as they want and just farm casuals, small scale PvPers, and even organized zergs.
And because of their (everyone knows macro'd) rotations of AoEs to stack heals and shields and light attack until everyone's Ulti is ready for an Ulti-Dump, they overwhelm the GCD on the server and cause lag for everyone and even take advantage of that lag to Ulti-bomb anyone they can catch in their Rush of Agony brokenness.
That's very different from an organized zerg.
So for example, bobbyblaster's organized Red zerg is one of the few that has been trying to use Azureblight to blow up the Blue and Yellow ball groups that- EVERY NIGHT - both just attack the Red home keeps, steal the Red scrolls with impunity and gate Red every night instead of fighting each other.
The Reds call it (rightfully so) Team Green because the Blue and Yellow ball groups don't fight each other unless perhaps the Reds decide to just leave in disgust on any given night because they're tired of doing nothing every night during prime time but defending their home keeps, getting run over by the ball groups and then getting gated by the hangers on of Blue and Yellow that follow their ball groups.But yeah ZOS...Cloak is the problem.
--
sudo rm -rf /
don't try this at ~7 -
ForumSavant✭✭✭✭
If you have to ask this question then you don't know what an actual ball group is.ForumSavant wrote: »What does this comment even mean, what is your differentiating factor between what is and what isn't a ballgroup regarding these groups?
All ball group is more than an zerg, even much more than an organized zerg. It is constructed just like a trials group in PvE is constructed: with very narrowly defined roles where members are required to have specific builds, specific CP, specific skills, and a pre-defined specific rotation they do to fulfill their narrow role in the group - exactly as these same players do in their PvE Trials group.
As of now, because of shield stacking, heal stacking and other silliness introduced by Scribing, these ball groups are being designed to literally be immortal. They can go anywhere on the map they want, run the whole map if they want, take any keep they want, hold that keep for as long as they want and just farm casuals, small scale PvPers, and even organized zergs.
And because of their (everyone knows macro'd) rotations of AoEs to stack heals and shields and light attack until everyone's Ulti is ready for an Ulti-Dump, they overwhelm the GCD on the server and cause lag for everyone and even take advantage of that lag to Ulti-bomb anyone they can catch in their Rush of Agony brokenness.
That's very different from an organized zerg.
So for example, bobbyblaster's organized Red zerg is one of the few that has been trying to use Azureblight to blow up the Blue and Yellow ball groups that- EVERY NIGHT - both just attack the Red home keeps, steal the Red scrolls with impunity and gate Red every night instead of fighting each other.
The Reds call it (rightfully so) Team Green because the Blue and Yellow ball groups don't fight each other unless perhaps the Reds decide to just leave in disgust on any given night because they're tired of doing nothing every night during prime time but defending their home keeps, getting run over by the ball groups and then getting gated by the hangers on of Blue and Yellow that follow their ball groups.
I know what a ballgroup is, asking someone to substantiate what THEY think a ballgroup is doesn't mean the person asking doesn't know. The reason I asked is because every group they named is a ballgroup.
If someone says Florida is a state but California and Alabama are not states, and I ask, "what do you think a state is?" you are aware of why I'm asking right? Or are you just unaware of how a conversation works when you are trying to get someone to flesh out their position?
Stop making wildly inaccurate claims about groups because they kill you. Bobby streams his PoV and the best ballgroup on the server also streams, stop making claims about them abusing and macoring, you make your point look worse by making things up
Edited by ForumSavant on 27 September 2024 23:344 -
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, since Azureblight isn’t going to carry anymore, maybe it’s time to remember the most ancient and effective counter: siege.
Ballgroups might be tanky, but they’re not out-tanking siege + pugs.
um no. You can coldfire them until you're blue and maybe their health bar will shift a teensy bit.PCNA
PCEU1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ForumSavant wrote: »What does this comment even mean, what is your differentiating factor between what is and what isn't a ballgroup regarding these groups?
The Reds call it (rightfully so) Team Green because the Blue and Yellow ball groups don't fight each other unless perhaps the Reds decide to just leave in disgust on any given night because they're tired of doing nothing every night during prime time but defending their home keeps, getting run over by the ball groups and then getting gated by the hangers on of Blue and Yellow that follow their ball groups.
Team Purple is the OG.
I can assure you that my AD Warden, which has only ever been used in group play because ZOS doesn't know how to balance combat, has pretty much an even split between DC and EP. EP Kills: 33,229. DC kills: 32,521.
Interesting fact. Even though the Necromancer has been an active class in ESO since May 2019, that's over 5 years ago, my Warden has only received 67 KBs from enemy Necromancers. So dying one a month to Necromancer players. No doubt those KBs are from residual siege damage.
Getting back to the OP, because that's far more interesting and relevant than the semantics of what constitutes a ball group or what the devs intended when much of the original development team left the game when Obama was president, I think it would be a welcome communication from ZOS to comment on their views of the prevalence of shield/heal stacking in Cyrodiil. Do they feel this is healthy for the PvP experience? Do they feel there are adequate counters in the game to target such tactic? Why have they not made any balance adjustments in this area since it has been for years the most common consistent negative point expressed in feedback with regards to PvP.Edited by Joy_Division on 28 September 2024 13:486 -
robpr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Imo they should just buff the sieges. No matter how heroic you are, you should not be able to survive a huge ballista bolt to the face. Remember that one weekend few years ago when sieges were bugged and dealt double damage? There was no ball groups in sight, because any hill could deploy 2 ballista or meatbags and be done for.2 -
ForumSavant✭✭✭✭Imo they should just buff the sieges. No matter how heroic you are, you should not be able to survive a huge ballista bolt to the face. Remember that one weekend few years ago when sieges were bugged and dealt double damage? There was no ball groups in sight, because any hill could deploy 2 ballista or meatbags and be done for.
That wouldn't be enjoyable for anyone. Every build would turn into a tank siege build and nobody would PvP.2 -
Aldoss✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »
Getting back to the OP, because that's far more interesting and relevant than the semantics of what constitutes a ball group or what the devs intended when much of the original development team left the game when Obama was president, I think it would be a welcome communication from ZOS to comment on their views of the prevalence of shield/heal stacking in Cyrodiil. Do they feel this is healthy for the PvP experience? Do they feel there are adequate counters in the game to target such tactic? Why have they not made any balance adjustments in this area since it has been for years the most common consistent negative point expressed in feedback with regards to PvP.
This is exactly the type of communication that I'd love to see more of, preferably not within the "Spoilers" tag (which they've clearly been loving recently). I'd rather know what ZOS' vision is prior to them destroying something or completely flipping.
1 -
Jman100582✭✭✭✭There is nothing you can do to nerf ball groups that won’t nerf groups of all sizes in general. Ball groups are heavily organized, optimized, with clear communication. You know why ball groups of similar sizes won’t fight? There’s two reasons 1) they are afraid of losing a gvg and 2) there’s a high likelihood it’s just a stalemate anyways with the current state of the game. If you have never ball grouped, or played in an organized group, it’s hard to understand that. Any nerf to a ball group will nerf you as well. Genuinely the only things they can do to nerf ball groups is to limit instances of hots like vigor or radiant regen to 2 per person or nerf shield support builds. A group of organized players will always beat a group of unorganized players. That’s how it is for any game. If you want to beat ball groups, go run your own ball group and gvg them, since you want to complain that the ball groups won’t fight each other. That’s your best bet to win. Or just siege them from the inside of keeps0 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭Sigh, quit asking for solutions to ball groups in a mode specifically designed to heavily favor ball groups and start asking for more modes that don't involve ball groups at all. This isn't pre-morrowind anymore. Cyrodiil is a failed experiment DAOC players just can't let go of it seems. It will never not be menaced by ball groups.
You want balanced or solo friendly pvp it isn't going to be a large scale war pvp mode, sorry. That is just antithetical. The 1vXers and solo heroes have done nothing but get balance changes that actually backfired and benefitted organized ball groups even more. Even Azureblight is a bigger Boone to ball groups than it is to random solo players. Sure you may get a pyric victory here and there but it wasn't countering ball groups by any measure.4 -
Pelanora✭✭✭✭✭
✭
What are some ballgroups on PC/NA then?
Indriks, LoM, Fake News, Adrestria, Enchiladas, 3.5, SLAYER, BONED, Barcodes, Xans Army, Army Of The Covenant, Wolves Of Fenris, Jaegers, Kids With Issues, Nefarrius 51, Wolves of Evermore, F-Tier.
Prob more that im not remembering.[/quote]]
Omg they have names. Now I've read it all.
Edited by Pelanora on 29 September 2024 07:360 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭RaidingTraiding wrote: »Nerf ball group threads have existed ever since I can remember. Ball groups will never be nerfed simply because they are the result of min maxing a group of 12 and utilizing whats available in the game to its full potential. Therefore by default ball groups will always be better than ungrouped mass of players who do not coordinate or optimize as a group. Ball groups have been nerfed numerous times but they always find another way to optimize their group. More often than not things that are introduced to counter ball groups ultimately get the most use out of ball groups. Good example is plaguebreak. Ball groups just stopped purging and now every group has at least 1 plaguebreak user.
One argument I see is that it takes no skill to run in ball groups. What people don't seem to understand is that skill level and play style differs greatly between groups. The unskilled groups will wipe very easily in most situations, be it because they were hit by another group or just a lot of enemy pugs. Some of these groups will also become clueless when their leader dies and run around like headless chickens. Oddly enough, no one seems to take notice when this happens, at least certainly not in the forums. Other groups will run more than 12 to compensate for lack of skill, others will stack with their faction or with other groups and will greatly outnumber. If your faction is struggling with a singular ball group of 12 then most likely you're fighting one of the better groups who knows what they're doing. A handful of these players are also pretty decent solo or as a small group.
However, the biggest issues I see that should probably be toned down is rush of agony and shield stacking. Rush is probably the biggest one, especially now that they buffed the range. Unsurprisingly this so called "nerf" which added the delay but greatly increased pull range turned out to be a huge buff. Now people are getting pulled from ridiculous distances into instant death. Not sure where the counter play is there, especially when you get pulled out of camera range at times. This has been the biggest crutch as of late to securing kills by ball groups, instead of the traditional way of baiting and kiting players into chokes. Was way easier to avoid pushes before pull sets, they were very telegraphed if you pay minimum attention to your surroundings. And the cooldown for rush is ridiculously short. Like once every 8 seconds is insane for a set that doesn't even follow cc rules. Heck even dark convergence follows cc rules and it has a 25 second cooldown.
Second overtuned thing is shield stacking. Arcanist is being nerfed a bit, but scribing shields stacked with barriers makes it extremely hard to kill groups. Some groups run a lot of Arkasis with potion cooldown glyphs so you can just rotate barriers every few seconds. Pillagers pairs well with this set up. A lot of groups are running around with 40k hp and 40k wards without even using barrier at times. This is a way bigger issue than cross healing. You essentially need 80k of burst at least.
There's also too many sources of damage mitigation. Was probably not a good idea to add major protection to flare and have 100% uptime. You get a ton of mitigation from cp as well, but since it isn't as big of an issue I won't elaborate on that.
Any changes made to nerf ball groups should always be thought out better, or you'll keep getting repeats of plague break and pull sets. Nerfs to harmony and proxy det also hurt solo bombers and small group bombers. Not a good idea to nerf damage and then buff the heck out of stuff like damage shields. So now groups are tankier and you have less options available for actually damaging them on top of that.
I, like many of the others that say it takes no skill, played in MUCH better ball groups early in the game and made the move to small scale because we got bored with being bots. Don’t say we don’t understand. We do. It use to be much harder to play that style without all these carry sets and carry classes. Anyone defending the current state of ball groups did not play at launch over the first 6 to 8 years. It is mind numbingly boring now. Sets that pull everyone together for you, cause a domino of explosions, make you immune to snares, make everyone in the group run at max speed, etc.
On the contrary. They couldn’t fix the lag or make players that play in ball groups mad. So they did the next best thing. Made it simpler for all groups to kill quickly with less button smashing in an effort to reduce lag. If anything, they made playing in ball groups way simpler and by extension, way more boring. This is why you do not see top tier players playing in groups.10 -
ShadowProc✭✭✭✭✭It's simply not true that ballgroups avoid each other, we actively hunt each other. The only ballgroups that don't fight each other are on the same team, stacking together to kill the better groups. Meeting one in a pug farm is fun cause they get zerged down, it's hilarious because they were farming our pugs all night and the pugs sing our praises. We only let them have the pug farm if they best us or there's good sportmanship in a gvg, which is rare.
Ballgroups are not a refuge for the talentless, you really have no idea how much skill is required to run in these groups, It is literally end game group pvp.
And we are hardly "gold (ap) farming" we have limitless ap already, we do it for the clips and dopamine hits.
The change to blight on the pvp side was necessary, while it was mostly manageable, some players who knew what they were doing were abusing it to ridiculous extremes, the scaling for pve seems too much for sure, but I won't miss it in Cyrodiil.
- @kookie ballgroup enjoyer
Fr they talk about talentless meanwhile stacking blight takes literally no brain or effort. Blight has also introduced some really trolly and cringy behavior in some people. In my group in particular we've had a particular small scale group of blighters follow us around, faction hop and stream snipe our leader to the worlds end. So to say I wont miss Blight would be an understatement.
In Ultimate online, this was called the community policing itself. The community showing special treatment to those few who wish to cause harm to the majority of players fun.5 -
Wycks✭✭✭✭The game is actually fun when there are no ball groups, which is a rare occasion. All sets have not only failed to counter ballgroups, but they have been used by ballgroups more effectively, not very well thought out counter, lol.. But what can you expect with the PvP lead in the same role for 10+ years.
The numbers thing is always going to be there, but it’s more down to player skill and there are ways through ability choice to configure a group to be stronger vs. large groups of people. - BRAIN WHEELER - 2012 - LOL4 -
J18696✭✭✭✭✭You will never be rid of ballgroups they are always going tobe the most effective method for group play so people will always make it work but saying plaugebreak takes azureblights place as the cyrodiil big boom set is a massive misunderstanding of the current pvp environment
Plaguebreak needs someone to either die or purge to proc its explosion and balls have essentially removed purge from their toolkits to counter plaugebreak and killing one of them is already a tall order. We already had a counter to azureblight don't stack ontop of eachother it would have been totally fine to keep the damage increase working in pvpEdited by J18696 on 30 September 2024 04:220 -
Feaky✭✭✭I was an everyday PVPer for years. I loved logging in and playing for hours most nights. A few years ago, there were a few ball groups but they played on a set schedule. Populations were large and you could wipe them in due time. But now, its out of control. They are near invincible unless they suck. Usually, there are several a night in a single keep picking on inexperienced players or pugs. They never fight each other, rarely go for campaign strategy and run if a strong zerg starts to counter them. Overall, its bad PVP. I don't care what sets to wear or what builds to have to counter them, its plain and simple bad PVP. Who the heck wants to chase 12 ball group members around in a circle until they charge their ultimates and then turn and 1 shot you because the player standing next to you has 15k health and PVE armor despite your build. Bad *** PVP. I gave up. I loved playing this game, but moved on. Now I craft and play occasional PVE content. Gave up on PVP. Thank you ZOS and the players exploiting bad game design and broken mechanics to farm AP.
ZOS, you had a good thing going for awhile, but your laziness and many people exploiting poor mechanics ruined it.9 -
keto3000✭✭✭Ballgroups | Malcolm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ9ft9-sPPU&t=526s“The point of power is always in the present moment.”
― Louise L. Hay1 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭Problem is that you have the trinity of ball vs zerg vs solo players. The changes that need to be made to reign in ball groups would also hurt zergs, which benefits solos.- Just one example of this trinity: being make over time effects not stack, like they used to. Suddenly groups cant stack 12 players worth of the most powerful hot on one player. Zergs would be slightly hurt as in general they are less efficient and not as coordinated(one player may have a few copy heals on them, which would no longer stack). Solo players would remain the same, but would benefit from not being run down by 30x of the go to dot/proc set that is undodgeable.
Now this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Back in the day you used to have way more casual players walking around solo. There used to be a good spread of skill on solo players. Now adays the only solo players are the 1vX elitist crowd. Also good in the fact that spreading out players helps against lag. However zerg players will cry that this hurts them.....even though likely this drastically helps them prevent groups with coordination from being untouchable. Its a scenario where zerg players have to take one step back for their opponent to take 2 or 3 steps back...... but they wont because one step back is bad in their eyes.0 -
keto3000✭✭✭Although I'm not a big fan of low pop bonuses since ive seen whole factions log off when losing just to retain some scroing benfit.
Couldnt devs consider some sort of localized high faction pop equalizer ie,
area of denial strat?
say if overwhelming number of offense (25??)players are attacking target objective: keep & surrounding rss or an outpost or a town and are negaged by only say 3 of defensive players, maybe add some type of bonus kill or enhance their health, drop the cyrodiil battle spirit .. or increase the power of thier siege?.
Just rambling off things that Im not sure could work in order to spur more convo on this type of mechanism“The point of power is always in the present moment.”
― Louise L. Hay0 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭Although I'm not a big fan of low pop bonuses since ive seen whole factions log off when losing just to retain some scroing benfit.
Couldnt devs consider some sort of localized high faction pop equalizer ie,
area of denial strat?
say if overwhelming number of offense (25??)players are attacking target objective: keep & surrounding rss or an outpost or a town and are negaged by only say 3 of defensive players, maybe add some type of bonus kill or enhance their health, drop the cyrodiil battle spirit .. or increase the power of thier siege?.
Just rambling off things that Im not sure could work in order to spur more convo on this type of mechanism
This seems more geared towards faction stacking causing faction inbalance instead of ball group discussion(12player coordinated group).
Still a good discussion to have. In terms of faction imbalance killing the game, there are many simple things they could do.- Buffs should be flipped. When your faction loses a home keep, your faction gains a buff. Scrolls would act in a similar way. This prevents the losing factions from flopping like in tug of war. Instead they get stronger the more they are pushed. To go further, AP multipliers could be added for factions with less keeps.
- Keep resources must play a larger part. To siege the walls you must control the mine. To siege the front door, you must hold the lumber. The farm would give the guards a buff equivalent to the difference of normal vs vet dungeons. This prevents faction stacks of 50 players simply just mounting and riding straight to the front door over and over again. Right now heal stacking and movement speed easily beats out counterseige.
- Transit line functions should be reworked such that only frontline keeps with a contested transit line can be sieged. More transit lines should be added to connect the outposts to the inner keeps. Examples being Cropsford to BM, or Carm to Rayles. Transit lines should provide AP multiplier bonuses for fighting in certain areas that have low population.
- Mount speed is too high in cyrodil. When was the last time anyone got ganked or pulled off their mount? Death has next to no downside anymore, when mount speeds are so high a larger pop faction can just waterfall people at an offensive keep fight and get people inside faster than the defending.
- PvP ap stores need updating and monetary benefit. Much like hakeijo or alk supplies in telvar, perhaps do something similar with AP. Jewelry mats? tempers? Purchasable transmute geodes?
Could probably just make a thread in the cyro pvp section of the forums instead. Although zos will probably be stuck looking at bgs because the daily rewards drive player numbers for their board of directors to be happy.0 -
Vulkunne✭✭✭✭✭
✭None. You and I both lose. Don't question 'them'. Ball groupers are the 'best players' in the game, they are entitled and above lesser players. They don't have time to rez others, they don't need to communicate with zone or 'the little people' in the faction. They have exclusive rights to scrolls and hammers, as well as to abuse them at will. To serve themselves at their leisure.
Its really all about 'them'. Gotta be seen, taking the keep, both sieging alone, wiping the defense alone, then defending alone, spending maybe an hour or more wiping an entire server load of people at the same keep without dying at all. But lets nerf NB cloak into the ground so those little people can learn to stand their ground and not try to you know, hide from the unkillable ball group or use cloak as a dodge even. We're just there to die and to fuel their egos and there is no place for any counter-play in this game to ball groups.
And it makes sense, I mean they are 'the best' afterall and you can't consistently be the best without being empowered to have the group mechanics artificially combine all those buffs for you. Gotta have the machine do the work so you can brag and talk about yourself and how you're the best but strangely not outside the group itself?Edited by Vulkunne on 28 November 2024 14:31Today Victory is mine. Long Live the Empire.11 -
ercknn✭✭Mad respect 🫡 to all the 1vX’ers that still exist out there.
We’ve almost become extinct at this point due to being hunted down by ball groups and zergs.
When you actually find another solo player they almost always run away, back to their warden healer in group 😢.
Nerf ball groups,
I’m just going to call out the elephant in the room, you ready?
Nerf Polar Wind on warden and make it scale with Max Magicka (also just make it heal you or another ally like BoL). Just make all heals scale with max mag/stam
#make healers squishy again
Edited by ercknn on 28 November 2024 17:137 -
MincMincMinc✭✭✭Mad respect 🫡 to all the 1vX’ers that still exist out there.
We’ve almost become extinct at this point due to being hunted down by ball groups and zergs.
When you actually find another solo player they almost always run away, back to their warden healer in group 😢.
Nerf ball groups,
I’m just going to call out the elephant in the room, you ready?
Nerf Polar Wind on warden and make it scale with Max Magicka (also just make it heal you or another ally like BoL). Just make all heals scale with max mag/stam
#make healers squishy again
You saying I shouldn't be able to run a 50khp warden with every major buff in the game spamming one ability that is a burst, aoe, hot, buff skill while all of my other skills are better versions of other non-dlc class skills?6 -
ercknn✭✭MincMincMinc wrote: »Mad respect 🫡 to all the 1vX’ers that still exist out there.
We’ve almost become extinct at this point due to being hunted down by ball groups and zergs.
When you actually find another solo player they almost always run away, back to their warden healer in group 😢.
Nerf ball groups,
I’m just going to call out the elephant in the room, you ready?
Nerf Polar Wind on warden and make it scale with Max Magicka (also just make it heal you or another ally like BoL). Just make all heals scale with max mag/stam
#make healers squishy again
You saying I shouldn't be able to run a 50khp warden with every major buff in the game spamming one ability that is a burst, aoe, hot, buff skill while all of my other skills are better versions of other non-dlc class skills?
Lol Well said1 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yes I think the combat intention is for you to get in groups and roll over factions with low chances of death.
Healing is overturned to the point it is broken! Stacking makes it insane especially with a barrier thrown in there also. The Hybrid system is broken stacking health with much fewer consequences than it did in the past is a mistake. Today a 40k toons with 20k in resources can do decent damage.
Balance is bad, Class diversity is bad, Build diversity is really bad.
They need class representatives, and BG PVP and Cyrodiil PVP representatives from the community. Most class reps would volunteer. Not sure why this can not be implemented. Currently, the community feels like ZoS really does not play nor understand the PVP concerns.
PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables2