So apparently people are being banned in game for using certain words with their friends?

Personofsecrets

@Wondernuts tried to warn you.

Heren

Dragonnord wrote: »

It seems it's you that are not reading me, as in one of my comments in this thread I stated that, if AI is indeed being used, there should be no problem, as monitoring chat is an old thing since ever in mmos.
 

Yet

Dragonnord wrote: »

IA has nothing to do here.
 

and

Dragonnord wrote: »

So again, people getting paranoid about AI.

So anyway, you do agree to the fact ( I stress it out, the fact ) that ZOS can, actually, use AI ( amongst other tools ) to moderate chats ? Not only monitore it, but moderate it, as it is clearly stated in there TOS ?

Dragonnord

Heren wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

It seems it's you that are not reading me, as in one of my comments in this thread I stated that, if AI is indeed being used, there should be no problem, as monitoring chat is an old thing since ever in mmos.
 

Yet

Dragonnord wrote: »

IA has nothing to do here.
 

and

Dragonnord wrote: »

So again, people getting paranoid about AI.

So anyway, you do agree to the fact ( I stress it out, the fact ) that ZOS can, actually, use AI ( amongst other tools ) to moderate chats ? Not only monitore it, but moderate it, as it is clearly stated in there TOS ?

If you read again, I said "if AI is indeed being used" (so giving the chance that AI is being used), and if you read even more carefully, not just copying/pasting randoms selections of my posts, you'll see that I meant that chat being monitored goes beyond AI, it's not because AI is now being used or not that chat conversations are being monitored, or that users have been banned (fairly or not) because of their conversations, public or private. It's beeing like that since ever, and AI has nothing to do with that.
 

Heren

My question needed only a clear yes or no you know, not some long explanations about you cautiousness ! So i'll take that as a maybe I guess.

Dragonnord

Heren wrote: »

My question needed only a clear yes or no you know, not some long explanations about you cautiousness ! So i'll take that as a maybe I guess.

I thought on a Yes or No, but then I saw you hadn't things clear, so I clarified them for you.
 

sarahthes

AngryPenguin wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Apparently chat is being monitored by AI and some people got banned while having fun banter with their friends because they used certain words that are deemed against the ToS. Nobody was reported, no feelings got hurt, yet those people still got banned.

Can anyone confirm this?

Probably best to know the content of their private conversations with their friends before wondering if they were unjustly banned.

If they were consenting private whispers then there was no violation. Period.

So if they're both ok with the hard R that's cool?

Varana

Not sure what "the hard R" is supposed to mean, but if they both willingly and freely consent to it and it stays between them, then yes, it's cool.
Whatever "the hard R" is.

sarahthes

Varana wrote: »

Not sure what "the hard R" is supposed to mean, but if they both willingly and freely consent to it and it stays between them, then yes, it's cool.
Whatever "the hard R" is.

It's a racial slur that ends in the letter R when used as a slur, but ends in a soft "a" when used more casually.

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton

sarahthes wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Not sure what "the hard R" is supposed to mean, but if they both willingly and freely consent to it and it stays between them, then yes, it's cool.
Whatever "the hard R" is.

It's a racial slur that ends in the letter R when used as a slur, but ends in a soft "a" when used more casually.

Consent and context matters.
If said in public or to a random, then it's absolutely shouldn't be allowed because when dealing with randoms, you never know if they are thin- or thick-skinned, and one should respect their feelings not to get offended.

However, when two friends are using it consensually in private, there should not be any problem.
To some people, words don't mean anything more than words, be it a soft insult or a slur.
Edgy, offensive humor is a thing, and there are people who enjoy it, regardless of their skin colour.
Many rap lyrics contain that word (mostly ending with A, but there are some with R too).
We give some words too much power. That's why these words have so much power.

sarahthes

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Not sure what "the hard R" is supposed to mean, but if they both willingly and freely consent to it and it stays between them, then yes, it's cool.
Whatever "the hard R" is.

It's a racial slur that ends in the letter R when used as a slur, but ends in a soft "a" when used more casually.

Consent and context matters.
If said in public or to a random, then it's absolutely shouldn't be allowed because when dealing with randoms, you never know if they are thin- or thick-skinned, and one should respect their feelings not to get offended.

However, when two friends are using it consensually in private, there should not be any problem.
To some people, words don't mean anything more than words, be it a soft insult or a slur.
Edgy, offensive humor is a thing, and there are people who enjoy it, regardless of their skin colour.
Many rap lyrics contain that word (mostly ending with A, but there are some with R too).
We give some words too much power. That's why these words have so much power.

What if it's being used about someone else? What if it's being used in an actual derisive way?

I'm ok with platforms deciding that certain language is completely unacceptable even in their "private" channels.

I'd also be really interested to know if the people getting banned by the word filter (and it does sound like an automod/filter type situation more than an AI or machine learning situation) had other previous strikes on their account. It's possible you'll never get flagged at all unless you've already been warned or temp banned.

Syldras

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton wrote: »

Consent and context matters.
If said in public or to a random, then it's absolutely shouldn't be allowed because when dealing with randoms, you never know if they are thin- or thick-skinned, and one should respect their feelings not to get offended.
However, when two friends are using it consensually in private, there should not be any problem.
To some people, words don't mean anything more than words, be it a soft insult or a slur.
Edgy, offensive humor is a thing, and there are people who enjoy it, regardless of their skin colour.
Many rap lyrics contain that word (mostly ending with A, but there are some with R too)

There are rap lyrics about redditors nowadays?

Joke aside: I agree with you that it's consent what matters, no matter if it comes to the usage of words, the discussion of topics, or even roleplay scenarios. I might find some things distasteful, I might even judge people for it (depending on what it is - and yes, of course people can judge what I'm doing, too!), but in the end, it's none of my business. What matters is that no harm is done between the people involved, and that's the case if consent is given.

But another thing that we have to take into consideration is that we're using someone else's platform here. They are the hosts, we are guests. So they can indeed set rules what topics or words aren't allowed at their place.

sarahthes

Syldras wrote: »

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton wrote: »

Consent and context matters.
If said in public or to a random, then it's absolutely shouldn't be allowed because when dealing with randoms, you never know if they are thin- or thick-skinned, and one should respect their feelings not to get offended.
However, when two friends are using it consensually in private, there should not be any problem.
To some people, words don't mean anything more than words, be it a soft insult or a slur.
Edgy, offensive humor is a thing, and there are people who enjoy it, regardless of their skin colour.
Many rap lyrics contain that word (mostly ending with A, but there are some with R too)

There are rap lyrics about redditors nowadays?

But another thing that we have to take into consideration is that we're using someone else's platform here. They are the hosts, we are guests. So they can indeed set rules what topics or words aren't allowed at their place.

I'm pretty sure on most other online game services you can't use certain words in their public OR private chats, and some do auto mod ban rather than just censoring. ESO is kind of an outlier in how lax they've been.

Syldras

sarahthes wrote: »

What if it's being used about someone else? What if it's being used in an actual derisive way?

I can't stand racists, homophobes and the likes either. But in the end, what does it change if they are forbidden to talk to each other (without anyone else involved) like that? It would change nothing about their opinion, they would probably just word things differently.

To add: I do in general understand that hosts ban obvious slurs, and that's their right to do that. I just don't think it changes the mindset of people who use them.

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton

sarahthes wrote: »

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Not sure what "the hard R" is supposed to mean, but if they both willingly and freely consent to it and it stays between them, then yes, it's cool.
Whatever "the hard R" is.

It's a racial slur that ends in the letter R when used as a slur, but ends in a soft "a" when used more casually.

Consent and context matters.
If said in public or to a random, then it's absolutely shouldn't be allowed because when dealing with randoms, you never know if they are thin- or thick-skinned, and one should respect their feelings not to get offended.

However, when two friends are using it consensually in private, there should not be any problem.
To some people, words don't mean anything more than words, be it a soft insult or a slur.
Edgy, offensive humor is a thing, and there are people who enjoy it, regardless of their skin colour.
Many rap lyrics contain that word (mostly ending with A, but there are some with R too).
We give some words too much power. That's why these words have so much power.

What if it's being used about someone else? What if it's being used in an actual derisive way?

I'm ok with platforms deciding that certain language is completely unacceptable even in their "private" channels.

I'd also be really interested to know if the people getting banned by the word filter (and it does sound like an automod/filter type situation more than an AI or machine learning situation) had other previous strikes on their account. It's possible you'll never get flagged at all unless you've already been warned or temp banned.

With other edgy friends, we used to joke about both our own as well as other races in private chats kinda equally, because it's just words to us.

But from my experience, we never received a warning or a suspension for using slurs jokingly in private chats since 2014.
On September 13, I received an automatic suspension by AI/word-filter for using the r-word in a private chat with consenting friends.
People were getting warns and bans for using slurs in PUBLIC chats for many years, but only when reported.
I would assume that slurs are now just as dangerous to use in private chats as other, less offensive (but still vulgar) words mentioned in above posts.

sarahthes

Thinking the real problem is that people are experiencing a reality check that the internet is never truly private.

Nothing you say or transmit online is safe from being monitored unless it's securely encrypted, and whatever in game chat might be, it's not that.

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton

Syldras wrote: »

SuspensionDispersingAutomaton wrote: »

Consent and context matters.
If said in public or to a random, then it's absolutely shouldn't be allowed because when dealing with randoms, you never know if they are thin- or thick-skinned, and one should respect their feelings not to get offended.
However, when two friends are using it consensually in private, there should not be any problem.
To some people, words don't mean anything more than words, be it a soft insult or a slur.
Edgy, offensive humor is a thing, and there are people who enjoy it, regardless of their skin colour.
Many rap lyrics contain that word (mostly ending with A, but there are some with R too)

But another thing that we have to take into consideration is that we're using someone else's platform here. They are the hosts, we are guests. So they can indeed set rules what topics or words aren't allowed at their place.

Legally yes, most ToS and CoC prohibit such things, mostly just in case and to avoid potential loopholes.
But not all companies go as far as to moderate private chats of friends.
Yes, it's in their legal right to do so, just as it's Nintendo is right to DMCA every fan mod and game. But should they, that's a whole new thing.
Especially when the decision to enforce it came only 10 years after the game's release.

About 8 years ago, the GMs were warning and banning people for offensive things in public chats, but when a user contacted them, they were telling them to keep offensive jokes to more private channels, such as parties, whispers and guilds.
I only started hearing of people being banned and warned for things that no one reported since about 2021, which is coincidentally when Microsoft acquisition concluded. It was rare, but still happened.
September 13th of 2024 is when a lot of people started receiving suspensions for private chats.

Syldras

sarahthes wrote: »

Thinking the real problem is that people are experiencing a reality check that the internet is never truly private.

This and that TOS are actually enforced now. If it had always been this way, from the beginning, people wouldn't complain now.

That the internet had been a place where some people think they can do whatever they want certainly also contributes to this. I want to be honest: I miss some aspects of the unlimitedness from the early days when the web was almost anarchic. On the other hand, I see how it's a mass medium by now, with all the uglyness and observation that comes with it.

Pelanora

Tallon_IV wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

If the allegations are true, it is a horrible system with no beneficiaries. If it isn't, no problemo.

Horrible system why? Explain me why please.

It's been like that, blacklisting and logging certain words since ever in mmos, now, 10 years later "Oh! This is horrible!"?

Come on! Give ZOS a break.
 

I'm sure the multi-million dollar company is grateful you're going to bat so hard for them. 🙄

Agree and they couldn't have chosen a better forum icon.

AngryPenguin

Syldras wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

If they were consenting private whispers then there was no violation. Period.

Of course it's a TOS violation, if the TOS say you're not allowed to write slurs. Do I find it useful to punish people when no harm was done? Certainly not. But we have accepted the TOS as they are, so they can enforce them accordingly. There's not a single uncertainty about that, and we shouldn't be surprised. I also don't expect them to change the TOS (or if at all, they will probably get even stricter), so all we can do is to live with that and draw our consequences (and how these look will differ from person to person).

Can you please link to or somehow show us where the ToS says we're not allowed to use swear words? This game is rated M for mature, which specifically means there might be adult language and themes in the game. Additionally, people are being banned for using words that are acceptable on public television that grade school kids have access to.

Wolfkeks

The email that was shown shows 2.3 of Code of Conduct as a violation (I would post it but when I open CoC it is German and I can't change it to English 😅)

But here is the link in hopes it's in the right language: https://account.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/code-of-conduct

sarahthes

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

If they were consenting private whispers then there was no violation. Period.

Of course it's a TOS violation, if the TOS say you're not allowed to write slurs. Do I find it useful to punish people when no harm was done? Certainly not. But we have accepted the TOS as they are, so they can enforce them accordingly. There's not a single uncertainty about that, and we shouldn't be surprised. I also don't expect them to change the TOS (or if at all, they will probably get even stricter), so all we can do is to live with that and draw our consequences (and how these look will differ from person to person).

Can you please link to or somehow show us where the ToS says we're not allowed to use swear words? This game is rated M for mature, which specifically means there might be adult language and themes in the game. Additionally, people are being banned for using words that are acceptable on public television that grade school kids have access to.

2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time.

This is from the code of conduct, but it's just a subset of the TOS. Was easier to find in the code of conduct. Bolding mine.

AngryPenguin

sarahthes wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

If they were consenting private whispers then there was no violation. Period.

Of course it's a TOS violation, if the TOS say you're not allowed to write slurs. Do I find it useful to punish people when no harm was done? Certainly not. But we have accepted the TOS as they are, so they can enforce them accordingly. There's not a single uncertainty about that, and we shouldn't be surprised. I also don't expect them to change the TOS (or if at all, they will probably get even stricter), so all we can do is to live with that and draw our consequences (and how these look will differ from person to person).

Can you please link to or somehow show us where the ToS says we're not allowed to use swear words? This game is rated M for mature, which specifically means there might be adult language and themes in the game. Additionally, people are being banned for using words that are acceptable on public television that grade school kids have access to.

2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time.

This is from the code of conduct, but it's just a subset of the TOS. Was easier to find in the code of conduct. Bolding mine.

That's nice. Nowhere there does it say you can't use swear words in a rated M game.

Thank you.

Should ZOS be fined or banned from accessing the game for putting "The lusty argonian maid" and others similar books in the game? Have you ever read any of these books? How about the "Handbook for playing kick the kajiit"?

Without any consistency with these issues it's absolutely to be expected that the player base would be up in arms.

Syldras

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Can you please link to or somehow show us where the ToS says we're not allowed to use swear words? This game is rated M for mature, which specifically means there might be adult language and themes in the game. Additionally, people are being banned for using words that are acceptable on public television that grade school kids have access to.

From the TOS:
"2.1 You may not create an account name, persona or avatar that is in any way discriminatory, sexually graphic, hateful, harmful, or excretory in nature. A name, persona or avatar that promotes self-harm, glorifies suicides or belittles physical or mental disability will be considered as harmful. You will not reference, claim affiliation or otherwise express sympathy with any hate groups. Any other names, text or chat that ZeniMax considers offensive is also in violation of the Agreement including the Code of Conduct.

2.2 You may not create any name, text or chat that negatively references a 'Protected Category' under applicable law. These include any name, text or chat which references or includes age, race, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, pregnancy, religion or gender. You may not create an account name that is defamatory, impersonates, breaches the privacy or attempts to defame the reputation of another account holder, an employee of ZeniMax, any natural or legal person or entity, property of ZeniMax, or ZeniMax and/or its affiliates.

2.3 You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks (both text and voice chat), unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another user’s experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. We encourage you to share feedback, suggestion, and requests with us, but we expect all of our users to refrain from abusive and disruptive behavior or resorting to demands or threats. Threats of real-life violence, in particular, are something we take very seriously and do not tolerate.

We do not tolerate discussion that is created for the purpose of "naming-and-shaming" other users. "Naming-and-shaming" is the act of creating a discussion to call out an individual or group by name, and making them the subject of public accusation, ridicule and/or shaming.

2.4 Derogatory, defamatory or offensive content used in conjunction with names of famous or important historical, political, religious figures or website URL's are not allowed. You will not create an account name that is in reference to or contains proprietary names, popular characters, or the names of modern era serial killers, individuals or groups who have committed crimes against humanity in the past. You will also refrain from participating in conspiracy theories, misinformation or fallacious comments. We expect all users to remain respectful and constructive at all times when using ZeniMax Services.

2.5 You will not attempt to, use misspellings, phonetic spellings, homonyms, word combinations, or alternative spellings to mask inappropriate material in any communication on ZeniMax Services. This includes but is not limited to text, chat, voice, in-game messaging or any other medium of communication or interaction between users.

2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time."

AngryPenguin

Syldras wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Can you please link to or somehow show us where the ToS says we're not allowed to use swear words? This game is rated M for mature, which specifically means there might be adult language and themes in the game. Additionally, people are being banned for using words that are acceptable on public television that grade school kids have access to.

From the TOS:
"2.1 You may not create an account name, persona or avatar that is in any way discriminatory, sexually graphic, hateful, harmful, or excretory in nature. A name, persona or avatar that promotes self-harm, glorifies suicides or belittles physical or mental disability will be considered as harmful. You will not reference, claim affiliation or otherwise express sympathy with any hate groups. Any other names, text or chat that ZeniMax considers offensive is also in violation of the Agreement including the Code of Conduct.

2.2 You may not create any name, text or chat that negatively references a 'Protected Category' under applicable law. These include any name, text or chat which references or includes age, race, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, pregnancy, religion or gender. You may not create an account name that is defamatory, impersonates, breaches the privacy or attempts to defame the reputation of another account holder, an employee of ZeniMax, any natural or legal person or entity, property of ZeniMax, or ZeniMax and/or its affiliates.

2.3 You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services. This includes but is not limited to verbal attacks (both text and voice chat), unwanted messaging, personal attacks, stalking or any other undesired behavior used to cause discomfort or disrupt another user’s experience. At all times users will refrain from attacking age, race, color, disability, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, lifestyle, pregnancy, gender or any other personally identifying factors protected category under applicable law. You may at no time share or refer to personal information of another person, account name, persona or avatar using ZeniMax or its affiliates. We encourage you to share feedback, suggestion, and requests with us, but we expect all of our users to refrain from abusive and disruptive behavior or resorting to demands or threats. Threats of real-life violence, in particular, are something we take very seriously and do not tolerate.

We do not tolerate discussion that is created for the purpose of "naming-and-shaming" other users. "Naming-and-shaming" is the act of creating a discussion to call out an individual or group by name, and making them the subject of public accusation, ridicule and/or shaming.

2.4 Derogatory, defamatory or offensive content used in conjunction with names of famous or important historical, political, religious figures or website URL's are not allowed. You will not create an account name that is in reference to or contains proprietary names, popular characters, or the names of modern era serial killers, individuals or groups who have committed crimes against humanity in the past. You will also refrain from participating in conspiracy theories, misinformation or fallacious comments. We expect all users to remain respectful and constructive at all times when using ZeniMax Services.

2.5 You will not attempt to, use misspellings, phonetic spellings, homonyms, word combinations, or alternative spellings to mask inappropriate material in any communication on ZeniMax Services. This includes but is not limited to text, chat, voice, in-game messaging or any other medium of communication or interaction between users.

2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time."

You are attempting to defend the indefensible.

Syldras

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Should ZOS be fined or banned from accessing the game for putting "The lusty argonian maid" and others similar books in the game? Have you ever read any of these books? How about the "Handbook for playing kick the kajiit"?

Legally, it doesn't matter if there's similar content in the game. If the TOS say "A user must/musn't..." then that's the rule. We agreed to it when joining the game.

Instead of complaining about what won't be changed anyway, I'd rather think of solutions.

Syldras

AngryPenguin wrote: »

You are attempting to defend the indefensible.

No, actually I was quoting the Code of Conduct because you asked.

sarahthes

AngryPenguin wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

AngryPenguin wrote: »

If they were consenting private whispers then there was no violation. Period.

Of course it's a TOS violation, if the TOS say you're not allowed to write slurs. Do I find it useful to punish people when no harm was done? Certainly not. But we have accepted the TOS as they are, so they can enforce them accordingly. There's not a single uncertainty about that, and we shouldn't be surprised. I also don't expect them to change the TOS (or if at all, they will probably get even stricter), so all we can do is to live with that and draw our consequences (and how these look will differ from person to person).

Can you please link to or somehow show us where the ToS says we're not allowed to use swear words? This game is rated M for mature, which specifically means there might be adult language and themes in the game. Additionally, people are being banned for using words that are acceptable on public television that grade school kids have access to.

2.6 You will not transmit or facilitate distribution of content that is harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights. Hate speech is not tolerated at any time.

This is from the code of conduct, but it's just a subset of the TOS. Was easier to find in the code of conduct. Bolding mine.

That's nice. Nowhere there does it say you can't use swear words in a rated M game.

Thank you.

Should ZOS be fined or banned from accessing the game for putting "The lusty argonian maid" and others similar books in the game? Have you ever read any of these books? How about the "Handbook for playing kick the kajiit"?

Without any consistency with these issues it's absolutely to be expected that the player base would be up in arms.

They get to decide what's offensive. That's on the TOS also as seen in the other quote that was posted just above.

AngryPenguin

ESO is rated M, not rated E.

Some posters seem to be trying to assert that it's acceptable to change the rating of the game 10 years after release.

What problem is this AI chat bot solving?

There is already a profanity filter in game people can turn on if swear words send them into a tizzy.

Syldras

AngryPenguin wrote: »

ESO is rated M, not rated E.
Some posters seem to be trying to assert that it's acceptable to change the rating of the game 10 years after release.

The rating wasn't changed, you can still read the Argonian Maid, Lessons of Vivec and Real Barenziah in game as well as watch the kill cam when stabbing npcs.

The only thing they do now is enforcing what has been in the TOS all the time. I'm sure ZOS won't change it.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

Because there is a thread already open on AI and Chat, we're going to close this one down so that all feedback can be consolidated in one place.

You may continue the discussion here. Thank you for your understanding.