Nightblade changes are good! Ty zos

StaticWave

Jaimeh wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin thank you for this change, it's one of the best ones your combat team has ever made ✌️💕😊

Again: do you main a nightblade, and did you test it on the PTS? What are your findings? Why do you think it's a good change? Were you able to use the skill as before, better or worse? I tried it on both my stamNB and magNB on the PTS with a regen build (that had very low dps, even worse on my stamNB), the drain was still too much, the toggle super clanky. I wouldn't want to manage this for farming let alone anywhere else @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler.

I used to main a NB. I don’t main it now, but I think the general idea is if a build can potentially be mediocre because 1 skill gets reworked, then that build is mediocre in the first place.

I bet before Streak got a ramping cost, many ppl crutched on it for their only defense as well. But hey, unless it’s game-breaking or over-performing, ppl will adapt and everything will be ok.

huskandhunger

Just tested out the new toggle version of cloak on the PTS on my nightblade--it's as smooth as butter, this is an excellent changing making it feel really easy now to slip in and out of cloak on unsuspecting victims

TechMaybeHic

StaticWave wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin thank you for this change, it's one of the best ones your combat team has ever made ✌️💕😊

Again: do you main a nightblade, and did you test it on the PTS? What are your findings? Why do you think it's a good change? Were you able to use the skill as before, better or worse? I tried it on both my stamNB and magNB on the PTS with a regen build (that had very low dps, even worse on my stamNB), the drain was still too much, the toggle super clanky. I wouldn't want to manage this for farming let alone anywhere else @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler.

I used to main a NB. I don’t main it now, but I think the general idea is if a build can potentially be mediocre because 1 skill gets reworked, then that build is mediocre in the first place.

I bet before Streak got a ramping cost, many ppl crutched on it for their only defense as well. But hey, unless it’s game-breaking or over-performing, ppl will adapt and everything will be ok.

I think when streak got ramping cost, it was before battle spirit was halfling shields and there was not critting shields, and there was no swift, not a lot of major expedition, yet yes; there was a freakout. lol

boi_anachronism_

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I play every class, but nightblade felt like actual cheating in pvp with how cloak/shadowy disguise worked, no downsides. Even I abused it many times, so I'm glad it's being adjusted, while feeling more satisfying to use in pve. The 10% damage buff to monsters is great!

Just wanted to give my thoughts as someone who has played hundreds of hours as a nightblade in both pve/pvp.

Although i predominantly pve I have literally 3k+ hrs on this class alone. Safe to say i know a thing or 2 about it. I was and still am a strong proponent of adjusting the skill to make it more balanced but the way they address cloak was not good. Of all the literal 100s of suggestions players have made this pigon holed the playstyle in just a really unfortunate way. Blast bones had a secondary option so both playstyles remained accessible although i really think they should have had blighted scale to your highest resource since anyone who didnt use the new morph had to respec the class completely. That is to say that this is a really off the wall comparison to make...

ibeprofun

Shadowy disguise changes will ruin nightblades. It will make the class impossible to play, and will *** off the largest class in pvp. This change will cause fewer players in a game that is already 10 years old.

Games this old eventually fizzle out, they don't get more popular, so nerfing anyone is going to *** them off and cause players to quit. Nerfing only expedites the quitting process.

Nerfing will add 0 new players, yet is usually the reason people quit games.

IncultaWolf

ibeprofun wrote: »

Shadowy disguise changes will ruin nightblades. It will make the class impossible to play, and will *** off the largest class in pvp. This change will cause fewer players in a game that is already 10 years old.

Games this old eventually fizzle out, they don't get more popular, so nerfing anyone is going to *** them off and cause players to quit. Nerfing only expedites the quitting process.

Nerfing will add 0 new players, yet is usually the reason people quit games.

I've actually had a lot of friends give up and quit eso/pvp because of nightblades who abused cloak and ganked new players over and over, while hiding in perma invisibility leaving them no chance to fight back.

silky_soft

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Anifaas wrote: »

Can we nerf the name too? Maybe something like Dayblade or Scoundrel? Or perhaps just plain "Brawler" since that seems to be the playstyle all non-NBs seem to want NBs to play.

Nigthblade XD

Sightblade

silky_soft

huskandhunger wrote: »

Just tested out the new toggle version of cloak on the PTS on my nightblade--it's as smooth as butter, this is an excellent changing making it feel really easy now to slip in and out of cloak on unsuspecting victims

Didn't know you played anything but werewolves.

ibeprofun

Again, no such thing as perma invisibility as anyone can use detect pots. You keep saying half truths.

huskandhunger

silky_soft wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Just tested out the new toggle version of cloak on the PTS on my nightblade--it's as smooth as butter, this is an excellent changing making it feel really easy now to slip in and out of cloak on unsuspecting victims

Didn't know you played anything but werewolves.

Old dog can have ancient nightblade secrets, boom 🤯

Bucky_13

Oldaraness wrote: »

I like to read all these NB that say this is a good nerf... all these NB never play in PvP probably... test it on PTS and after that try to think how you can play this skill in PvP against perma-heal or perma-block tank... but you play only in PvE and you have the problem to click cloak button every 3 secs? what a good player... you need a skill that toggle it? I hope Nb isn't your main class

I've mained stamblade for 8 years, have a stamblade Grand Overlord, do vet Trials and dungeon trifectas with stamblade and like to mess around with weird NB builds on alts such as a pacifist permacloak builds. I've tried out the cloak on PTS, not for PvP since it's a bit hard to find other players there, but in PvE and generally just messing around.

Although I was quite upset when I read the patch notes, I actually don't mind the change to cloak anymore after playing around on PTS. Except that I would prefer to see the 10% damage to monsters buff be increased to 20 seconds to give us a much needed boost in group PvE damage.

For PvP, it depends on how you normally use Cloak. Sometimes I do use it defensively to get away, often in combination with some of Race Against Time, Vigor, Shade, Rally & dodging. Depends on the build I'm doing at the moment, but I don't really cloak more than 2 times in a row unless it's a permacloaking troll build. Offensively I usually use it to avoid some damage and start a new burst attack, this is the main way I use cloak in PvP. Since the toggle on PTS breaks on attacks and dodges, it's quite easy to cloak and attack on PTS just as it is on live. As for getting away, I can easily break it when needed. The lack of mag regen is a clear nerf, but also needed because if mag regen is allowed while cloak is toggled, it would be an insanely strong buff since permacloaking and recovering all resources would be trivial. So I don't have it active more than I have to. It's a minor inconvenience that can be mitigated.

As for perma-block & perma-heal enemy players, I tend to poke them a bit and then move on since they're not worth the time and effort to fight. Unless I can bait them into another group of players. Not much is changing there.

opethmaniac

TybaltKaine wrote: »

This change is awful for people who have bad hands. I rarely use stealth, mostly because I can't do the button dance to make it useful, and when I do use it, it's often the end of my gaming day because my hands are cooked.

Now, if I want to use it effectively and not just pop into existence with no magicka in the middle of a fight, I have to do even more button dancing. It's a net negative for me. I main NB, have always used the rogue style class and this, this is awful.

I was already slowly leaving PVP, this basically kills Cyro for me. Only fun I can have now is BG's and that's about to mucked up too. Guess I'll just run a healbot and hope for the best.

"Hey, why isn't that NB doing any damage at all?" is probably going to be asked by a lot of the folks I PUG PVP with.

Agree... Oakensoul builds will be useless too.

Oldaraness

Bucky_13 wrote: »

For PvP, it depends on how you normally use Cloak. Sometimes I do use it defensively to get away, often in combination with some of Race Against Time, Vigor, Shade, Rally & dodging. Depends on the build I'm doing at the moment, but I don't really cloak more than 2 times in a row unless it's a permacloaking troll build. Offensively I usually use it to avoid some damage and start a new burst attack, this is the main way I use cloak in PvP. Since the toggle on PTS breaks on attacks and dodges, it's quite easy to cloak and attack on PTS just as it is on live. As for getting away, I can easily break it when needed. The lack of mag regen is a clear nerf, but also needed because if mag regen is allowed while cloak is toggled, it would be an insanely strong buff since permacloaking and recovering all resources would be trivial. So I don't have it active more than I have to. It's a minor inconvenience that can be mitigated.

Ok if the activation will be Toggle, the lack of regeneration is necessary, of course.

But it is Toggle the real problem. Toggle with continuous demand of mag, more expensive than the current + lack of regeneration is objectively too much.

Toggle is the real big deal, 3 sec for activation (like the live version of cloak) is fine... Keep this type of activation and add the lack of regeneration, okay. But the demand for toggle and mag continues (so high... if it will be lower than now it will perhaps be better) is more than a nerf.

Current activation + lack of regeneration = ok
Current Activation + Increased Mag Cost = ok
Toggle + lack of regeneration = ok
Toggle + lack of regeneration + lower mag request than current = ok

Toggle + lack of regeneration + great demand for mag = kill NB essence

CameraBeardThePirate

Oldaraness wrote: »

I like to read all these NB that say this is a good nerf... all these NB never play in PvP probably... test it on PTS and after that try to think how you can play this skill in PvP against perma-heal or perma-block tank... but you play only in PvE and you have the problem to click cloak button every 3 secs? what a good player... you need a skill that toggle it? I hope Nb isn't your main class

Dude the person that made this post is a NB pvp main. Instead of making assumptions, why not look at the many other tools NB has in their kit?

CameraBeardThePirate

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I play every class, but nightblade felt like actual cheating in pvp with how cloak/shadowy disguise worked, no downsides. Even I abused it many times, so I'm glad it's being adjusted, while feeling more satisfying to use in pve. The 10% damage buff to monsters is great!

Just wanted to give my thoughts as someone who has played hundreds of hours as a nightblade in both pve/pvp.

Although i predominantly pve I have literally 3k+ hrs on this class alone. Safe to say i know a thing or 2 about it. I was and still am a strong proponent of adjusting the skill to make it more balanced but the way they address cloak was not good. Of all the literal 100s of suggestions players have made this pigon holed the playstyle in just a really unfortunate way. Blast bones had a secondary option so both playstyles remained accessible although i really think they should have had blighted scale to your highest resource since anyone who didnt use the new morph had to respec the class completely. That is to say that this is a really off the wall comparison to make...

Both playstyles did not remain accessible with the Blastbones nerf lol. Stalking Blastbones was a burst skill, Blighted is a pressure skill. By removing Stalking they heavily neutered the ability to make a burst necro.

Oldaraness

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Dude the person that made this post is a NB pvp main. Instead of making assumptions, why not look at the many other tools NB has in their kit?

Yes and I have read his post where ask to make Cloak a toggle... because he forget to press the button to have cloak active... what a good NB we have... If you want to play a hidden class you must be able to hide... so if this is the NB who made this post You can understand I can't consider his position... not as a NB.

MincMincMinc

Oldaraness wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Dude the person that made this post is a NB pvp main. Instead of making assumptions, why not look at the many other tools NB has in their kit?

Yes and I have read his post where ask to make Cloak a toggle... because he forget to press the button to have cloak active... what a good NB we have... If you want to play a hidden class you must be able to hide... so if this is the NB who made this post You can understand I can't consider his position... not as a NB.

Are you not pcna? OP is a known NB player in high mmr environment.

Ill post my claim here again. Why are you complaining about it being a toggle? That is a major QOL improvement.

• The toggle is a QOL improvement and would help with sustain. Not only in lag where you are prone to early recast or failing to be able to cast, but in normal GCD rotations you will overlap cloak to avoid making an animation.
• The cost per second does what zos wants. Make cloak cheaper to initiate, but be harder to maintain.
• The Mag cut is what you should complain about. Under normal rotation being in stealth for 0.5-0.7s you are randomly gambling on when your regen tick may or may not happen. Which could make any given fight feel like you have 2k+ regen or dont have 2k regen. A better option would be a ramping cost over time like streak or roll dodge, considering cloak serves the same purpose in combat. This at least lets you still decide to build regen if you want to stay in stealth longer.

Oldaraness

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Are you not pcna? OP is a known NB player in high mmr environment.

Ill post my claim here again. Why are you complaining about it being a toggle? That is a major QOL improvement.

• The toggle is a QOL improvement and would help with sustain. Not only in lag where you are prone to early recast or failing to be able to cast, but in normal GCD rotations you will overlap cloak to avoid making an animation.
• The cost per second does what zos wants. Make cloak cheaper to initiate, but be harder to maintain.
• The Mag cut is what you should complain about. Under normal rotation being in stealth for 0.5-0.7s you are randomly gambling on when your regen tick may or may not happen. Which could make any given fight feel like you have 2k+ regen or dont have 2k regen. A better option would be a ramping cost over time like streak or roll dodge, considering cloak serves the same purpose in combat. This at least lets you still decide to build regen if you want to stay in stealth longer.

I complaining about it being a toggle because... please read thi: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8189983/#Comment_8189983

Thi is the point. Ok for nerf it, ok but not a toggle or NB will be unplayeble for the most of the time.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

A better option would be a ramping cost over time like streak or roll dodge, considering cloak serves the same purpose in combat. This at least lets you still decide to build regen if you want to stay in stealth longer.
[/list]

Thi is probably the best solution for this change. I wrote in other thread but I don't think ZOS will go in that direction.

MincMincMinc

Oldaraness wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Are you not pcna? OP is a known NB player in high mmr environment.

Ill post my claim here again. Why are you complaining about it being a toggle? That is a major QOL improvement.

• The toggle is a QOL improvement and would help with sustain. Not only in lag where you are prone to early recast or failing to be able to cast, but in normal GCD rotations you will overlap cloak to avoid making an animation.
• The cost per second does what zos wants. Make cloak cheaper to initiate, but be harder to maintain.
• The Mag cut is what you should complain about. Under normal rotation being in stealth for 0.5-0.7s you are randomly gambling on when your regen tick may or may not happen. Which could make any given fight feel like you have 2k+ regen or dont have 2k regen. A better option would be a ramping cost over time like streak or roll dodge, considering cloak serves the same purpose in combat. This at least lets you still decide to build regen if you want to stay in stealth longer.

I complaining about it being a toggle because... please read thi: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8189983/#Comment_8189983

Thi is the point. Ok for nerf it, ok but not a toggle or NB will be unplayeble for the most of the time.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

A better option would be a ramping cost over time like streak or roll dodge, considering cloak serves the same purpose in combat. This at least lets you still decide to build regen if you want to stay in stealth longer.
[/list]

Thi is probably the best solution for this change. I wrote in other thread but I don't think ZOS will go in that direction.

I have a hard time complaining about it being a toggle, even in lag since I would rather be stuck in cloak slightly longer, instead of being exposed. Ive only been ptsing my builds, but will test cloak tonight. I thought other actions like attacking turn off the toggle, correct me if im wrong.

Lag these days isn't even that terrible compared to the 5 min pauses we had before. At worst PCNA primetime geryhost I only find myself doing a slight input delay to make sure skills go through.

Veinblood1965

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Do you main a nightblade? Did you test it on the PTS? It's a terrible change, both from a PvP and PvE perspective. You won't be able to use the skill casually, you'll need to build around it. There has never been a precedent before with a class skill that players use often, where they had to be put in an extremely specific box, build-wise, and micro-management of a skill, usage-wise, so that they can use it effectively. Does ZOS honestly expect all NBs to run in Darloc and similar builds? Where's the 'play as you want' there? You won't be able to use it fast and in a reactive manner (which is basically the main characteristic of ESO combat, especially PvPing). The timing of cloak was so important, and now that's gone. The toggle is so clanky that it will not be worth risking it in most fights, that is if you have the resources to do that. @ZOS_BrianWheeler please consider reverting this, and if you must nerf it you could ramp up the cost upon cast, but the toggle is a really bad design change.

Yes I tested it extensively on the pts, I prefer this over the currently live version. It does not feel clunky at all. You can get around the resource drain by juggling around siphoning strikes and rally while in stealth, as neither ability will pull you out of cloak. This feels so much better being a toggle, and should help balanced the class in pvp.

That is kinda the opposite of their goal. ZOS wanted to make cloak easier to cast & use, while also making "permanent cloak" impossible or very hard to do.

The result is that instead of casting one skill every 3 seconds, you will now cast the skill once (toggle) and then cast Siphoning Strikes or Equilibrium every 2 seconds and occasionally rally to heal up.

It is harder to maintain while allowing to stay invisible for a very long time easily. GG. Total opposite of what they are intending to do. They might as wall scrap the idea & leave it as it is on live, or maybe add some de-buff do battle spirit (like 80% magicka recovery reduction while invisibility is active on you in PvP zones).

At least the new sets they implemented take care of ball groups.....

GuuMoonRyoung

I don't do PvP, my main is a NB and I do a lot of PvE stealing and killing using cloak and now it is completely ruined. It is appalling that ZOS still can not make abilities work differently in PvP and PvE situations. They always "balance" abilities when they see it is being used too much in PvP.

And those who are saying this is great that it is just a simple toggle now, while it is up, you can not regen MP. If you are a stam NB, you are done as you can not keep it up for more than 5-7 seconds. This is ridiculous!

NyassaV

Change looks awful tbh. Will be janky too most likely.

taugrim

TybaltKaine wrote: »

This change is awful for people who have bad hands. I rarely use stealth, mostly because I can't do the button dance to make it useful, and when I do use it, it's often the end of my gaming day because my hands are cooked.

Can you or someone explain this?

I assumed a toggle would mean fewer button presses, which would be better for people with bad hands / mobility issues / carpal tunnel.

TybaltKaine

Sure.

Right now, I can do a button press every 3 seconds or so to maintain stealth, and it isn't an issue because my resource recovery is manageable and allows me to get where I need without burning through my bar.

With this change, the only effective way to manage stealth and magicka on a mag build is to use other skills, Equilibrium and Siphoning Strikes, which need to be cast more frequently to maintain my effective magicka pool.

This basically means I need to press a button, sometimes two or three in rapid succession, more often than before. That's not an issue for someone who has normal hand function, but for a person like me who essentially has two or three immobile claws on each hand its an issue.

Now, I can accept that I can just use stealth until my magicka runs out, leaving me at a competitive disadvantage, or I can adjust my build to use sets that I don't use at all, again causing me issues in combat effectiveness.

Removing the no regeneration would fix this issue. Capping mag regen at 60% or so while cloak is active is a nice compromise that allows everyone who plays the game to continue to use it as they please.

EDIT: To add context, I PVP solo and primarily scout since I can't react very well in combat because of my hands. So, this definitely impacts my ability to maneuver in cloak and relay enemy positions and movements in combat situations. It will make it so all I can do in Cyro is hide at the edges of battle and occasionally burn a camp. Not fun at all.

MincMincMinc

taugrim wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

This change is awful for people who have bad hands. I rarely use stealth, mostly because I can't do the button dance to make it useful, and when I do use it, it's often the end of my gaming day because my hands are cooked.

Can you or someone explain this?

I assumed a toggle would mean fewer button presses, which would be better for people with bad hands / mobility issues / carpal tunnel.

You are completely correct. The toggle results in many saved button presses. Dont know why people complain without even trying it on the pts. Kinda wish you had to actually log into a character on the pts to be given a entry code to participate in the forums.

huskandhunger

taugrim wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

This change is awful for people who have bad hands. I rarely use stealth, mostly because I can't do the button dance to make it useful, and when I do use it, it's often the end of my gaming day because my hands are cooked.

Can you or someone explain this?

I assumed a toggle would mean fewer button presses, which would be better for people with bad hands / mobility issues / carpal tunnel.

mhmm! Me too

huskandhunger

NyassaV wrote: »

Change looks awful tbh. Will be janky too most likely.

very smooth like water,.in and out of stealthy gameplay, motion of the ocean that counts ^^ I tried on pts and liked it

Aurielle

MincMincMinc wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

This change is awful for people who have bad hands. I rarely use stealth, mostly because I can't do the button dance to make it useful, and when I do use it, it's often the end of my gaming day because my hands are cooked.

Can you or someone explain this?

I assumed a toggle would mean fewer button presses, which would be better for people with bad hands / mobility issues / carpal tunnel.

You are completely correct. The toggle results in many saved button presses. Dont know why people complain without even trying it on the pts. Kinda wish you had to actually log into a character on the pts to be given an entry code to participate in the forums.

Agreed. People were saying over in General Discussion that it would be “impossible” to run heists and do other PVE thief-type gameplay after U44. Linked them to two videos showing how much easier it is to sustain permanent cloak on the PTS than on live, and not ONE of them admitted they were wrong. They just said things like “Darloc Brae is not cloak” and missed the point completely.

I wish people would actually test stuff out before making hyperbolic, knee-jerk responses.

MincMincMinc

Aurielle wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

taugrim wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

This change is awful for people who have bad hands. I rarely use stealth, mostly because I can't do the button dance to make it useful, and when I do use it, it's often the end of my gaming day because my hands are cooked.

Can you or someone explain this?

I assumed a toggle would mean fewer button presses, which would be better for people with bad hands / mobility issues / carpal tunnel.

You are completely correct. The toggle results in many saved button presses. Dont know why people complain without even trying it on the pts. Kinda wish you had to actually log into a character on the pts to be given an entry code to participate in the forums.

Agreed. People were saying over in General Discussion that it would be “impossible” to run heists and do other PVE thief-type gameplay after U44. Linked them to two videos showing how much easier it is to sustain permanent cloak on the PTS than on live, and not ONE of them admitted they were wrong. They just said things like “Darloc Brae is not cloak” and missed the point completely.

I wish people would actually test stuff out before making hyperbolic, knee-jerk responses.

I played all of thieves guild on a heavy armor stamsorc with a 35million gold bounty (gold farm at the time)..... i think a medium armor nb with 3x the invis and crouch speed will be fine

Aggrovious

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Yeah, I’m not too certain about sustain yet (I haven’t tried it) but I’m honestly glad to not have to hit the button every 3 seconds.

Exactly! They changed magicka blastbones so new players don't have to press the ability every 3 seconds, now with cloak getting the same treatment it will be more accessible.

Now hold on a second pal. The blast bones change is a disgrace to necromancers. All the change did was force players to go HA builds. That is so boring and a disgrace