Nightblade changes are good! Ty zos

IncultaWolf

I made a thread at the beginning of the year asking for cloak to become a toggle, I'm glad zos listened to my personal feedback and implemented this change!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/651463/nightblade-changes-good-but-more-is-needed/p1

I didn't actually expect this to happen

Soarora

Yeah, I’m not too certain about sustain yet (I haven’t tried it) but I’m honestly glad to not have to hit the button every 3 seconds.

IncultaWolf

Soarora wrote: »

Yeah, I’m not too certain about sustain yet (I haven’t tried it) but I’m honestly glad to not have to hit the button every 3 seconds.

Exactly! They changed magicka blastbones so new players don't have to press the ability every 3 seconds, now with cloak getting the same treatment it will be more accessible.

MashmalloMan

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Yeah, I’m not too certain about sustain yet (I haven’t tried it) but I’m honestly glad to not have to hit the button every 3 seconds.

Exactly! They changed magicka blastbones so new players don't have to press the ability every 3 seconds, now with cloak getting the same treatment it will be more accessible.

You just earned enough xp to level up, congratulations!

LunaFlora

i love that Shadowy Disguise will be a toggle! can't wait to steal from NPC's with my Nightblades without potions

Jaimeh

Do you main a nightblade? Did you test it on the PTS? It's a terrible change, both from a PvP and PvE perspective. You won't be able to use the skill casually, you'll need to build around it. There has never been a precedent before with a class skill that players use often, where they had to be put in an extremely specific box, build-wise, and micro-management of a skill, usage-wise, so that they can use it effectively. Does ZOS honestly expect all NBs to run in Darloc and similar builds? Where's the 'play as you want' there? You won't be able to use it fast and in a reactive manner (which is basically the main characteristic of ESO combat, especially PvPing). The timing of cloak was so important, and now that's gone. The toggle is so clanky that it will not be worth risking it in most fights, that is if you have the resources to do that. @ZOS_BrianWheeler please consider reverting this, and if you must nerf it you could ramp up the cost upon cast, but the toggle is a really bad design change.

huskandhunger

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin thank you for this change, it's one of the best ones your combat team has ever made ✌️💕😊

LunaFlora

Jaimeh wrote: »

. Does ZOS honestly expect all NBs to run in Darloc and similar builds?

luckily i already use Darloc Brae for my thief build

Tommy_The_Gun

After testing it on PTS, I would not be so enthusiastic, as for the most part it is a big fat nerf.

The toggle part makes the cloak indeed easier to cast. But I personally prefer casting every 3 seconds as you have better control over it, and you have better feedback if something is interrupting it (some scripted mobs or players in PvP).

The problem is cost.
In current PTS, cloak uses tons of magicka per 2 seconds, so if you are stamina based or you don't have 40K max magicka & don't run full light armour with cost reduction glyphs - forget about being able to use cloak for duration long enough to do something relevant. Unless you want to try casting Siphoning Strikes / Equilibrium, but that drains your health and is even harder to pull of vs currently on live casting cloak every 2,9 seconds.

Jaimeh

huskandhunger wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin thank you for this change, it's one of the best ones your combat team has ever made ✌️💕😊

Again: do you main a nightblade, and did you test it on the PTS? What are your findings? Why do you think it's a good change? Were you able to use the skill as before, better or worse? I tried it on both my stamNB and magNB on the PTS with a regen build (that had very low dps, even worse on my stamNB), the drain was still too much, the toggle super clanky. I wouldn't want to manage this for farming let alone anywhere else @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler.

IncultaWolf

Jaimeh wrote: »

Do you main a nightblade? Did you test it on the PTS? It's a terrible change, both from a PvP and PvE perspective. You won't be able to use the skill casually, you'll need to build around it. There has never been a precedent before with a class skill that players use often, where they had to be put in an extremely specific box, build-wise, and micro-management of a skill, usage-wise, so that they can use it effectively. Does ZOS honestly expect all NBs to run in Darloc and similar builds? Where's the 'play as you want' there? You won't be able to use it fast and in a reactive manner (which is basically the main characteristic of ESO combat, especially PvPing). The timing of cloak was so important, and now that's gone. The toggle is so clanky that it will not be worth risking it in most fights, that is if you have the resources to do that. @ZOS_BrianWheeler please consider reverting this, and if you must nerf it you could ramp up the cost upon cast, but the toggle is a really bad design change.

Yes I tested it extensively on the pts, I prefer this over the currently live version. It does not feel clunky at all. You can get around the resource drain by juggling around siphoning strikes and rally while in stealth, as neither ability will pull you out of cloak. This feels so much better being a toggle, and should help balanced the class in pvp.

Jaimeh

LunaFlora wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

. Does ZOS honestly expect all NBs to run in Darloc and similar builds?

luckily i already use Darloc Brae for my thief build

Darloc is not the best build for all the other things people use cloak for. A class skill should not be the most effective only under one build and one playstyle.

Tommy_The_Gun

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Do you main a nightblade? Did you test it on the PTS? It's a terrible change, both from a PvP and PvE perspective. You won't be able to use the skill casually, you'll need to build around it. There has never been a precedent before with a class skill that players use often, where they had to be put in an extremely specific box, build-wise, and micro-management of a skill, usage-wise, so that they can use it effectively. Does ZOS honestly expect all NBs to run in Darloc and similar builds? Where's the 'play as you want' there? You won't be able to use it fast and in a reactive manner (which is basically the main characteristic of ESO combat, especially PvPing). The timing of cloak was so important, and now that's gone. The toggle is so clanky that it will not be worth risking it in most fights, that is if you have the resources to do that. @ZOS_BrianWheeler please consider reverting this, and if you must nerf it you could ramp up the cost upon cast, but the toggle is a really bad design change.

Yes I tested it extensively on the pts, I prefer this over the currently live version. It does not feel clunky at all. You can get around the resource drain by juggling around siphoning strikes and rally while in stealth, as neither ability will pull you out of cloak. This feels so much better being a toggle, and should help balanced the class in pvp.

That is kinda the opposite of their goal. ZOS wanted to make cloak easier to cast & use, while also making "permanent cloak" impossible or very hard to do.

The result is that instead of casting one skill every 3 seconds, you will now cast the skill once (toggle) and then cast Siphoning Strikes or Equilibrium every 2 seconds and occasionally rally to heal up.

It is harder to maintain while allowing to stay invisible for a very long time easily. GG. Total opposite of what they are intending to do. They might as wall scrap the idea & leave it as it is on live, or maybe add some de-buff do battle spirit (like 80% magicka recovery reduction while invisibility is active on you in PvP zones).

IncultaWolf

I play every class, but nightblade felt like actual cheating in pvp with how cloak/shadowy disguise worked, no downsides. Even I abused it many times, so I'm glad it's being adjusted, while feeling more satisfying to use in pve. The 10% damage buff to monsters is great!

Just wanted to give my thoughts as someone who has played hundreds of hours as a nightblade in both pve/pvp.

Oldaraness

I like to read all these NB that say this is a good nerf... all these NB never play in PvP probably... test it on PTS and after that try to think how you can play this skill in PvP against perma-heal or perma-block tank... but you play only in PvE and you have the problem to click cloak button every 3 secs? what a good player... you need a skill that toggle it? I hope Nb isn't your main class

Just_Attivi

instead of hitting cloak every 3 seconds, we are hitting siphoning and rally every second, alternating between the two. also you need a 2H now. also thats 3 slots on a bar taken up.

from 20 button presses a minute to 60 button presses a minute (for anyone trying to sustain long bouts of stealth, pve or pvp).

the game already has very strong anti-stealth options (and we just removed some like, 1 update ago, so not sure why we are trying to 'make stealth more accessible' now , even though this is making it harder). between detects, sentry, AOE spam, 94.1% of the players being sorcs accidentally streaking through you, your own skills pulling you out of stealth because lag, maintaining stealth is hard. Stealth still breaks constantly. latency still causes what you did 2 seconds ago to pull you out of stealth now, essentially wasting the cast anyway. making it a toggle removes agency from your actions. is this the only toggle skill in the game besides the vampire one? even pets have active click components.

100% against this. if we want to reign in stealth abuse, ramping cost or disabling magicka regen while invisible (needs to be differentiated from the vampire version, unless we want to entirely negate the majority use case of that red CP for magicka while sprinting) would work better. personally i think ramping cost is the fairest option, as even this changed version *CAN* be infinite with the above buttons, where as a ramping cost would eventually be impossible to cast, combatting the main complaint people have against stealth.

sneakymitchell

I been leveling a nightblade on main server. Since how nightblades are good in general. The cloak can counter by siphon and cost reduction. So yea. It be more spam siphon and have some heals and health recovery for it.

Tommy_The_Gun

Just_Attivi wrote: »

instead of hitting cloak every 3 seconds, we are hitting siphoning and rally every second, alternating between the two. also you need a 2H now. also thats 3 slots on a bar taken up.

from 20 button presses a minute to 60 button presses a minute (for anyone trying to sustain long bouts of stealth, pve or pvp).

After a bit of testing, I think that I may get away with only siphoning, but it would require some ultra precaution as I will also have to watch my health bar. It all depends on the circumstances. On PTS is it hard to recreate chaotic PvP Cyro, so I can imagine that what looks "ok-ish" now won't be good on live in real PvP enviroment.

If not, then I will just use Two Handed like in the old days when it had best execute. Most NBs back then were running Executioner (Yeap, NB class execute was trash at some point lol).

Anyway, I also tested that aside from siphoning, Equilibrium & morphs also works and can extend that duration of the otherwise useless duration of the PTS cloak. I also do think that they may patch things out so for example rally will break cloak (it should not) & siphoning may get nerfed. I mean they can read forums and they know what kind of bypass of the problem players already figured out day 1.

Soarora

Soarora wrote: »

Yeah, I’m not too certain about sustain yet (I haven’t tried it) but I’m honestly glad to not have to hit the button every 3 seconds.

I tried it out a little (just running around, not trying to do anything) and I do really like the toggle better, it feels smoother and less panic inducing. At first I thought the cost was too much but I guess it engages more "go hide in the corner strategically" tactics. I've never made a pvp NB although I've wanted to, so I'm commenting from a thief perspective. I wouldn't be mad if the cost was reduced though, especially since my test is done on a stage 4 vamp breton.

TechMaybeHic

Tested it and felt find to me. You can still crouch while going into cloak and toggle it off and stay stealth. Anything that breaks cloak/stealth now on live like activating an ability and taking damage untoggles cloak. The only thing you cant do is anticipate being hit by stuff that will pop you out and just keep hitting cloak to immediately return/use it as a magicka dodge roll. Probably is easier at pickpocketing for a PvEer as they can toggle it on if build for it and seemingly not be seen by NPCs

DrSlaughtr

It's stupidly to high a cost.

On one hand, I'm told that this makes the skill easier to use for players who are not able to learn how to properly use cloak.

And then on the other hand Content Creators Club tells me that it actually makes it require more skill to use, so anyone mad are just lazy gankers who don't want to try hard.

It's weird how it can be both at the same time.

It's a hard nerf to stealth based builds in PVP at the expense of making things "more accessible" outside of PVP. Fine. Let's assume that this is necessary. I personally don't understand what the problem is with the current skill, usage wise. You already have to manage cooldowns of every other skill in the game. Why is this one so hard?

But okay, let's assume that it has to be a toggle.

Here is a fair compromise.

It costs initially to fire. 3500. 4000. Whatever. It is now toggled.

It is on, indefinitely, until you cast an action that ends stealth or you are detected. During that time you have zero magicka recovery.

you will still have situations where you have to reapply shadowy disguise after the skill ends, costing you another round of magicka and once again locking your recovery. That in and of itself is a severe burden for both stam and magblades.

"But what about darloc!"

You only get the benefit from Darloc when you are crouched and not moving. You are also giving up damage/healing/surviving on your backbar, which is a definitive loss. Even if someone is wearing Wretched on their backbar, that set still gives some damage and it is always active.

so now you create a situation where someone has cloak on, is sneaking, so has zero stamina and magicka recovery, forcing them to use siphoning to make up what they can until they find a corner somewhere to sit out the battle.

This in and of itself would be a stupidly ridiculous change, but it is far less extreme than the current proposal.

bladenick

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

It's stupidly to high a cost.

On one hand, I'm told that this makes the skill easier to use for players who are not able to learn how to properly use cloak.

And then on the other hand Content Creators Club tells me that it actually makes it require more skill to use, so anyone mad are just lazy gankers who don't want to try hard.

It's weird how it can be both at the same time.

It's a hard nerf to stealth based builds in PVP at the expense of making things "more accessible" outside of PVP. Fine. Let's assume that this is necessary. I personally don't understand what the problem is with the current skill, usage wise. You already have to manage cooldowns of every other skill in the game. Why is this one so hard?

But okay, let's assume that it has to be a toggle.

Here is a fair compromise.

It costs initially to fire. 3500. 4000. Whatever. It is now toggled.

It is on, indefinitely, until you cast an action that ends stealth or you are detected. During that time you have zero magicka recovery.

you will still have situations where you have to reapply shadowy disguise after the skill ends, costing you another round of magicka and once again locking your recovery. That in and of itself is a severe burden for both stam and magblades.

"But what about darloc!"

You only get the benefit from Darloc when you are crouched and not moving. You are also giving up damage/healing/surviving on your backbar, which is a definitive loss. Even if someone is wearing Wretched on their backbar, that set still gives some damage and it is always active.

so now you create a situation where someone has cloak on, is sneaking, so has zero stamina and magicka recovery, forcing them to use siphoning to make up what they can until they find a corner somewhere to sit out the battle.

This in and of itself would be a stupidly ridiculous change, but it is far less extreme than the current proposal.

It not toggle off when detected by detect pot, you will burn out mana stupidly like nake man under detect pot,

It only toggle off if detected by direct damage

Tommy_The_Gun

bladenick wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

It's stupidly to high a cost.

On one hand, I'm told that this makes the skill easier to use for players who are not able to learn how to properly use cloak.

And then on the other hand Content Creators Club tells me that it actually makes it require more skill to use, so anyone mad are just lazy gankers who don't want to try hard.

It's weird how it can be both at the same time.

It's a hard nerf to stealth based builds in PVP at the expense of making things "more accessible" outside of PVP. Fine. Let's assume that this is necessary. I personally don't understand what the problem is with the current skill, usage wise. You already have to manage cooldowns of every other skill in the game. Why is this one so hard?

But okay, let's assume that it has to be a toggle.

Here is a fair compromise.

It costs initially to fire. 3500. 4000. Whatever. It is now toggled.

It is on, indefinitely, until you cast an action that ends stealth or you are detected. During that time you have zero magicka recovery.

you will still have situations where you have to reapply shadowy disguise after the skill ends, costing you another round of magicka and once again locking your recovery. That in and of itself is a severe burden for both stam and magblades.

"But what about darloc!"

You only get the benefit from Darloc when you are crouched and not moving. You are also giving up damage/healing/surviving on your backbar, which is a definitive loss. Even if someone is wearing Wretched on their backbar, that set still gives some damage and it is always active.

so now you create a situation where someone has cloak on, is sneaking, so has zero stamina and magicka recovery, forcing them to use siphoning to make up what they can until they find a corner somewhere to sit out the battle.

This in and of itself would be a stupidly ridiculous change, but it is far less extreme than the current proposal.

It not toggle off when detected by detect pot, you will burn out mana stupidly like nake man under detect pot,

It only toggle off if detected by direct damage

My God, if they won't patch it is going to be a miserable experience. Not only due to lag (and toggle skills do not really work in lag), but also cuz NBs for the most part will now have cloak on the other bar...

Detection potions on pts behave like if they were bugged. Those should toggle cloak off entirely or work like Mark Target. That skills reveals invisible target only for the skill caster. So it would make sense for detection potions to not reveal invisibility for everyone but only for detection user. Since cloak is still toggled "on" and is consuming magicka, then that magicka needs to go somewhere, right ? If detection potions only worked for the one who drinked it, then you would still be invisible for everyone else, so it would make perfect sense for the cloak not to be toggled off.

Anifaas

Can we nerf the name too? Maybe something like Dayblade or Scoundrel? Or perhaps just plain "Brawler" since that seems to be the playstyle all non-NBs seem to want NBs to play.

Tommy_The_Gun

Anifaas wrote: »

Can we nerf the name too? Maybe something like Dayblade or Scoundrel? Or perhaps just plain "Brawler" since that seems to be the playstyle all non-NBs seem to want NBs to play.

Nigthblade XD

Aurielle

Jaimeh wrote: »

There has never been a precedent before with a class skill that players use often, where they had to be put in an extremely specific box, build-wise, and micro-management of a skill, usage-wise, so that they can use it effectively.

Every Templar main just chuckled.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that the cloak toggle is silly, and a ramping magicka cost would be a much better alternative. But please don’t suggest NB is the only class that has ever had to build around a nerf to a key class skill that has long been part of the class’s identity. Many Templars don’t even slot jabs anymore, it was nerfed that hard.

IncultaWolf

Anifaas wrote: »

Can we nerf the name too? Maybe something like Dayblade or Scoundrel? Or perhaps just plain "Brawler" since that seems to be the playstyle all non-NBs seem to want NBs to play.

You're insinuating that I don't play NB when I've posted scoreboard screenshots, done testing on pts, and have hundreds of hours of gameplay playing one in pvp and pve. I've abused cloak like crazy and I prefer the pts version as it feels more balanced in pvp, and satisfying to use in pve. The unique 10% damage buff to monsters is awesome. You're still going to be able to go invisible, and you'll still be able to kill most players with 2 buttons. (Incap + Merciless Resolve)

You have an amazing toolkit, and with one of the new sets coming out next patch you'll be looking at 30k bow procs on certain pvp builds. I advocated for ramping cost on shadowy disguise but all the other nb players cried at the idea, so this is what you get now.

TechMaybeHic

Aurielle wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

There has never been a precedent before with a class skill that players use often, where they had to be put in an extremely specific box, build-wise, and micro-management of a skill, usage-wise, so that they can use it effectively.

Every Templar main just chuckled.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that the cloak toggle is silly, and a ramping magicka cost would be a much better alternative. But please don’t suggest NB is the only class that has ever had to build around a nerf to a key class skill that has long been part of the class’s identity. Many Templars don’t even slot jabs anymore, it was nerfed that hard.

Templar was my main from launch, post jab nerf, until the backlash nerf really and then NB, until I got bored and mixed it up. They'll still use cloak on NB. It's fine in most scenarios on PTS.

DrSlaughtr

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Anifaas wrote: »

Can we nerf the name too? Maybe something like Dayblade or Scoundrel? Or perhaps just plain "Brawler" since that seems to be the playstyle all non-NBs seem to want NBs to play.

You're insinuating that I don't play NB when I've posted scoreboard screenshots, done testing on pts, and have hundreds of hours of gameplay playing one in pvp and pve. I've abused cloak like crazy and I prefer the pts version as it feels more balanced in pvp, and satisfying to use in pve. The unique 10% damage buff to monsters is awesome. You're still going to be able to go invisible, and you'll still be able to kill most players with 2 buttons. (Incap + Merciless Resolve)

You have an amazing toolkit, and with one of the new sets coming out next patch you'll be looking at 30k bow procs on certain pvp builds. I advocated for ramping cost on shadowy disguise but all the other nb players cried at the idea, so this is what you get now.

If it was simply a matter of ramping cost in combat against players, them id have no problem with it. As it is I already have to blow at least 3 cloaks to get past guards into a keep because of their ridiculous detection field. And if one spots me, good luck because I'll likely not be able to sneak for an absurd amount of time no matter how far I get away from them.

Because, doesn't that make the skill "harder"?

It's not abusing a skill to use it how it has always been designed. If you think you're "above" using cloak then don't use it. I rarely use tarnished because I don't like using instant procs.

TybaltKaine

This change is awful for people who have bad hands. I rarely use stealth, mostly because I can't do the button dance to make it useful, and when I do use it, it's often the end of my gaming day because my hands are cooked.

Now, if I want to use it effectively and not just pop into existence with no magicka in the middle of a fight, I have to do even more button dancing. It's a net negative for me. I main NB, have always used the rogue style class and this, this is awful.

I was already slowly leaving PVP, this basically kills Cyro for me. Only fun I can have now is BG's and that's about to mucked up too. Guess I'll just run a healbot and hope for the best.

"Hey, why isn't that NB doing any damage at all?" is probably going to be asked by a lot of the folks I PUG PVP with.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

It's stupidly to high a cost.

On one hand, I'm told that this makes the skill easier to use for players who are not able to learn how to properly use cloak.

And then on the other hand Content Creators Club tells me that it actually makes it require more skill to use, so anyone mad are just lazy gankers who don't want to try hard.

It's weird how it can be both at the same time.

It's a hard nerf to stealth based builds in PVP at the expense of making things "more accessible" outside of PVP. Fine. Let's assume that this is necessary. I personally don't understand what the problem is with the current skill, usage wise. You already have to manage cooldowns of every other skill in the game. Why is this one so hard?

But okay, let's assume that it has to be a toggle.

Here is a fair compromise.

It costs initially to fire. 3500. 4000. Whatever. It is now toggled.

It is on, indefinitely, until you cast an action that ends stealth or you are detected. During that time you have zero magicka recovery.

you will still have situations where you have to reapply shadowy disguise after the skill ends, costing you another round of magicka and once again locking your recovery. That in and of itself is a severe burden for both stam and magblades.

"But what about darloc!"

You only get the benefit from Darloc when you are crouched and not moving. You are also giving up damage/healing/surviving on your backbar, which is a definitive loss. Even if someone is wearing Wretched on their backbar, that set still gives some damage and it is always active.

so now you create a situation where someone has cloak on, is sneaking, so has zero stamina and magicka recovery, forcing them to use siphoning to make up what they can until they find a corner somewhere to sit out the battle.

This in and of itself would be a stupidly ridiculous change, but it is far less extreme than the current proposal.

No Darloc works when crouched, you can move around all you want and regenerate stats, your thinking of Shadow Walker where you need to stay still.