PTS Update 44 - Feedback Thread for Banner Bearer Grimoire

ZOS_Kevin

This is the official feedback thread for the new Banner Bearer Grimoire. Specifically, the focus is on testing how Banner Bearer functions and works within your playstyle. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• Does Banner Bearer present new ways to play, or create other fun options for you to pick from?
• Does Banner Bearer allow you to better create a build suited for your playstyle?
• Does Banner Bearer feel close to existing abilities in terms of power? Please explain your answer.
• What do you think of the Scripts available for Banner Bearer? Do they make sense to you?
• Do you have any other general feedback?

Bo0137

Banner bearer is a brilliant idea! Specially for being toggleabe (permanent then) and for creating an aura AROUND you. I can't stress enough how cool this is and how diverse builds can be with this! 10/10, best design yet. It fits the purpose of Scribing being a way of diversifying builds just so much!

With that being said, please please please consider adding an "aggressive"/"do damage" to the Banner Bearer. When you add a damage focus script it will automatically buff said damage. And that's it. I want something to actually deal damage.

A script like that would benefit the aggressive tanker build just so much! Combine it with thunderbug's carapace and Livewire... chef's kiss!

acastanza_ESO

Signature Scripts on Banner Bearer don't apply their effect in the AOE.
Based on the tooltip this seems to be the intended design ("increases your"/"decreases your"), but that really seems to defeat the purpose of the Grimiore.
Admittedly some of these effects are very strong, and would be too strong to apply in an AOE in their current state, but I would strongly consider adjusting the effect strength and allowing them to apply in the AOE in a way that fits the Grimiore better.

monkidb16_ESO

Should make it persist between bar swaps.
Also not a fan of the percentage based penalty since it punishes gearing for resource regeneration, a flat penalty like Spaulders would be better imo.

Runefang

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Signature Scripts on Banner Bearer don't apply their effect in the AOE.
Based on the tooltip this seems to be the intended design ("increases your"/"decreases your"), but that really seems to defeat the purpose of the Grimiore.
Admittedly some of these effects are very strong, and would be too strong to apply in an AOE in their current state, but I would strongly consider adjusting the effect strength and allowing them to apply in the AOE in a way that fits the Grimiore better.

I hope they don't apply signature effects in the AOE, far too strong, just the basic buff in the AOE is enough.

acastanza_ESO

Runefang wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Signature Scripts on Banner Bearer don't apply their effect in the AOE.
Based on the tooltip this seems to be the intended design ("increases your"/"decreases your"), but that really seems to defeat the purpose of the Grimiore.
Admittedly some of these effects are very strong, and would be too strong to apply in an AOE in their current state, but I would strongly consider adjusting the effect strength and allowing them to apply in the AOE in a way that fits the Grimiore better.

I hope they don't apply signature effects in the AOE, far too strong, just the basic buff in the AOE is enough.

I definitely don't think it should give the current full value in that AOE that would be silly. But considering extremely high effective cost of the skill, and it's nature as an AOE support skill, it should definitely give reduced versions of those buffs in the AOE.

Theist_VII

Banner Bearer can NOT have the two-bar requirement with the penalty to sustain.

With a double penalty, people will only use this in very niché circumstances; if at all.

We’ve seen thread after thread providing feedback about the double bar requirement on Sorcerer pets, and how that alone makes using them completely unbearable.

Why make the same mistake again?

Tannus15

banners don't stack.
is there a limit to the number of players it can affect?

can you please make this information clear on the grimoire? i can see a lot of players not knowing this and assuming they will.

the whole thing feels way more limiting now. this encourages stacking single class dps's *cough* arcanist *cough* since having some people on physical direct damage and others on magical aoe damage will punish the group because they can only run 1 banner type

I really like using my mag sorc, but if my group is runnig a dot banner for the DK's and Arcs then i'm going to completely miss out on the buff since sorcs get NO DAMN DOTS

RaptorRodeoGod

This feels like the most unique Scribing skill out of the bunch so far, and it has a lot of unique interactions that are fun to play around with.

It would be cool if one focused buffed healing taken as well.

ssewallb14_ESO

If the effects don't stack then what are the rules for who gets what if two players are running banners? This seems like a nuisance in randoms.

This also seems power creep inducing with the unique damage done buffs.

And as mentioned by others, this reinforces group comps based around a single thing, where that's already a problem that's hard enough to balance to begin with.

IMO this should only apply the affix in an area, and the recovery penalty should be significantly reduced.

xylena_lazarow

Ooh wow another buff for comp groups to stomp randoms even harder, very cool!

CameraBeardThePirate

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Ooh wow another buff for comp groups to stomp randoms even harder, very cool!

If it keeps the double bar requirement, nobody in group comps will ever use it.

Cominfordatoothbrush

I like the concept. I think overall buffs like ult cost are pretty good here, or if there were an overall damage script. However I'm a little worried that the specific damage type scripts nudge ESO even further into the direction of very homogenous looking groups in terms of classes used. Especially since multi target will further incentivize every DPS running arcanist

YandereGirlfriend

Where is the information on non-stacking coming from?

It would make obvious sense if two people running +6% DOT Damage didn't stack up to +12% as they are literally the same effect. But it would make no sense if two people, one using +6% DOT and another using +6% Magickal Damage didn't combine for +12% on something like Wall of Elements. That would be fairly tragic design and ensure that only one person in a trial would ever be able to run Banner, which is silly.

Assuming that different effects DO stack, then Banner is brilliant, even with the double-bar requirement. One of the coolest skills that they've added in a long time and delivering on significantly more of the promise of Scribing in offering up much more build flexibility and creative options.

If they DON'T stack, then this is snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and this skill is dead-on-arrival.

xXCJsniperXx7

This is the best grimoire I would use for my main, a tank, and others out there to probably. The buffs you can give to your 4 man and trial groups are greatly useful. Like mine I made with Restore Resources, Caviliers Charge, and minor heroism. It reduces how much stam or magic I use for tanking, buffs my group members with some bonus damage, and eliminates the need for ulti pots on my dk tank while as a bonus it gives minor heroism my group members to.

The main suggestions I would recommend to improve this skill are first, one bar slotted and second whole numbered increase cost.

The key issue with double baring is your reducing your slots by two. It can really hinder you with limiting your bars to 8 slots then. Therefor it would be better to change this skill to be like Mend Wounds from Psijic skill line. That way you'll have equal real estate to swaping skills as you normally do for builds.

Using percentage for recovery reduction is too heavy. Having it as this will dissuade using it in builds as your resources will always drop too low. Say for my dk tank for example with 1111 stam recove, 33% is equal to 367, that cuts it down to 744. A better approach to this would be the method Spaulder of Ruin uses to reduce recovery. Having a small whole number value that stacks per player inside your AoE. Thus it's not so damaging in smaller groups, while then being more affecting in trials 12 man groups where you can sustain a lot more.

sancarvel

Not related to function, but the sound effect associated with Banner Bearer is overtuned (too loud, too sharp, not subtle enough). Someone on PTS was circling major wayshrines and spamming it on and off, sounding like a chorus of dying cats.

MashmalloMan

Cool ability, but not a fan of the double bar requirement. I'd much rather prefer a heavier penalty on the resource regeneration, then forcing it on 2 slots. This game already has very limiting bar space, that plays into it's charm by creating build diversity and real choice, but anything less than what is already there feels very bad.

Joy_Division

Please stop with the double barring skill requirements.

chessalavakia_ESO

I felt like the Banner had some potential interesting possibilities to play with on builds that are less slanted towards recovery stats.

When it comes to power, I think it would likely depend on the area of the game and it's likely in some areas you've got a rather thin line between OP and useless.

I kinda wish it had more Affix options as if you are using Oakensoul all of them besides Resolve are redundant.



The banners visuals can make things get visually loud in areas with lots of players.

It could maybe be a bit more clear on how it interacts with itself and other players.

I do wish it like many of the other group abilities would apply to allies if you aren't in a group.

WeWentElsweyr

It's really nice, just wish it weren't double bar. I am totally cool with the 33% less resource regen because it gives lots of options, but it is a bit harsh having it on both. Look at guard for example, it requires double bar, and it's really helpful at what it does - but because it's double bar, it's only used in very specific situations.

The 33% regen penalty should be a flat cost per player buffed like spaulder because it is very punishing against builds that have regen versus those that don't bother with it and are based on regenning fast with procs/heavy attacks.

Guard has the trade-off where it can easily get you killed because you're taking damage probably from a tank, so you use it to help the tank if it's a really tough fight or if the tank is brand new. It's 2 bars and you've got less abilities to help you cope with the damage you're taking, and generally less utility for the group.

Banner already means you have 33% less regen and if you stack that with spaulder you probably aren't going to have much at all - but that is an acceptable trade. 2 bars with spaulder type costs means you start sacrificing some of the customisation scribing is meant to give.

I absolutely love the idea. Just 2 bar abilities are very very offputting. 🙁

I am one of the lunatics that runs psijic mend wounds, I love permanent toggles that help with different situations and I love that the psijic ability allows healer light attack weaving.

But two bar slotting an ability (like guard, or banner if it doesn't change) breaks my argonian heart because then I might as well run oakensoul and call it a day.

WeWentElsweyr

I just did some testing on my alts and you can only be impacted by one banner at a time even if all the buffs are different. So it's got all these downsides - resource drain flat 33%, double bar and can't work with different banner bearers? 🙁

YandereGirlfriend

WeWentElsweyr wrote: »

I just did some testing on my alts and you can only be impacted by one banner at a time even if all the buffs are different. So it's got all these downsides - resource drain flat 33%, double bar and can't work with different banner bearers? 🙁

How does that even work then if you are in the presence of multiple banners? Does it do some wonky on-the-fly distance calculation and only use the banner that's closest to you? Or the one that affected you first?

It's so weird and arbitrary and likely a killing blow for ever slotting this skill in any type of content.

You're gonna have to revisit that one, ZOS. If auras don't stack this skill is dead-on-arrival.

Elrond87

i lost interest in it soon as i hear it needs to be double barred, i dont have 2 slots im willing to drop i could 1

AdmiralDigby

Does Banner Bearer present new ways to play, or create other fun options for you to pick from?

Not really, its just another buff to have in organized groups. Ultimately may change some rotations. Make them easier since you have less skills to cast statically or dynamically.

Does Banner Bearer allow you to better create a build suited for your playstyle?

Once again, it's not going to drastically change any gameplay or how a class feels. Other then having to account for the lack of bar space & sustain hit.


Does Banner Bearer feel close to existing abilities in terms of power? Please explain your answer.

It's quite different from most skills. It's hard to compare it to skills in terms of power. I'd rather compare it to spaulder & 5 peice buff sets (like pearl). In that regards I think it's fairly well balanced in terms of output (6% multipliers)


What do you think of the Scripts available for Banner Bearer? Do they make sense to you?

Yes for the most part. I'd like to see a way to give AOE major resolve for groups that don't want to run a Den support. Just an option.

Do you have any other general feedback?

I think you need to think about what class's can run this effectively. Giving up 2 spots on skill bars & 33% hit to sustain is a big cost. With that said, Arcanists can easily run this. They have godly sustain. They have ample bar space (in fact you can really just replace double camohunter with double banner for a solo DPS increase. Which also increases groups DPS). The way the banners are currently setup HEAVILY favours putting them on Arc DD's in PVE.

Necros can sustain it. However not nearly as comfortably as Arcs. Supports probably can however giving up 2 skill spots if costly for a support.

I'd like you to make the banners one bar only. Also you need to nerf Arc sustain. It's absolutely silly good. That's true outside of banner. However doing so, would make banner more evenly viable among all classes. I would just increase the beam cost but quite a bit. That should have minimal impact on PVP Arcs since most of them don't run beam in PVP.

I actually went on PTS and tested the banners with parses among multiple classes.

AdmiralDigby

After reading other critiques. I'd like to add to my original post.

I think they are too many damage types, which will force groups to stack heavy into one type of damage. I'd combine all the Damage banners into one. Just 6% Damage buff (for all damage types). Maybe add a movement speed banner as well.

acastanza_ESO

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

After reading other critiques. I'd like to add to my original post.

I think they are too many damage types, which will force groups to stack heavy into one type of damage. I'd combine all the Damage banners into one. Just 6% Damage buff (for all damage types). Maybe add a movement speed banner as well.

Absolutely not, that would be insanely overpowered.

YandereGirlfriend

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

After reading other critiques. I'd like to add to my original post.

I think they are too many damage types, which will force groups to stack heavy into one type of damage. I'd combine all the Damage banners into one. Just 6% Damage buff (for all damage types). Maybe add a movement speed banner as well.

It wouldn't be an issue having the different types if the auras could stack with each other. That seems like the obvious behavior of the skill and certainly the behavior that would give it the most real-world use.

Right now it is so bizarre and arbitrary. Like, I am still unclear how auras work in terms of "winning" when multiple auras overlap a user. Rather than leave that as a black box and mystery, they should simply stack. Adjusting the buff values, if necessary.

Because currently, what, they want one person in a trial to use this skill and nobody else? That seems so weird. Why go to all of the trouble to design the skill if barely anyone is actually intended to run it? Couple that with the huge downsides of double-barring and this is looking very much dead-on-arrival unless something big changes (like aura-stacking and/or single-barring).

Finedaible

The drawbacks currently make Banner Bearer unattractive. I do like the concept, but needing to double-bar the skill in addition to the harsh percentage-based penalty to all resource recovery make this prohibitively costly and difficult to work with. I feel like with the improvements ZoS has made to a few select skills this year (slotted on either bar), this QoL could have extended to new skills as well. I personally think all skills on either bar should be considered "slotted" and "active" for passives and effects really because this is a confusing concept for new players and should be more straightforward without digging up some player guide.

Banner Bearer's drawbacks make sense in highly optimized group play, but doesn't really provide anything new to unoptimized or solo gameplay. Not that it has to, but it's probably the only new scribing skill we will get this year and I don't see much in Scribing that can really diversify the player experience.

Daemonai

I'm fine with the double bar requirement - I like permanent toggles. Additionally, because of banner bearers' power creep potential, I think double barring is a fair ask. If this skill were made single-bar, it would automatically become meta and mandatory in many builds, which I am not a fan of. At least with double barring, players would have to decide if what they are gaining is worth what they are losing, and for many that will not be the case, which is fine as that helps maintain build diversity/dissuade homogeneity.

Every new tool doesn't need to be for everyone. If this skill is only used by a select few players who are purpose-built to get the most value out of the skill then I think that is the ideal outcome. After all, if everyone is a banner bearer then it kinda loses its significance, eh?

MashmalloMan

Daemonai wrote: »

I'm fine with the double bar requirement - I like permanent toggles. Additionally, because of banner bearers' power creep potential, I think double barring is a fair ask. If this skill were made single-bar, it would automatically become meta and mandatory in many builds, which I am not a fan of. At least with double barring, players would have to decide if what they are gaining is worth what they are losing, and for many that will not be the case, which is fine as that helps maintain build diversity/dissuade homogeneity.

You're assuming people asking for it to be 1 bar, would also want it to behave exactly the same as is. I think most people understand it would require a heavier penality if that were the case, which would also avoid making it a requirement on all builds.

ZOS should do everything they can do avoid 1 bar or cast time skills because people just don't like using them. It's anti fun, our bar space is already limited as much as possible. There is alternative methods to meet balance as we've seen countless times on other abilities or sets.

Eg. make it 1 bar, but the penalty for resource recovery is increased, reduce your health, increase damage taken, decrease damage done, there is potentially 100s of different ways they can do it, and they pick the one way majority of players hate.

At the very least, they can keep double bar skills balanced as is, but provide an additional condition below it that says something like "if only used on 1 bar, the penalties are doubled". This applies to all double bar skills, you could give players real choice, if you're okay to give up 2 skill slots, you get a better version of the skill. Imagine Sorc's Tormentor or Warden's Bear dealt 60% less damage for only using 1 bar, just spit balling ideas, but you get the point.

Before someone mentions "but what about Oakensoul", you can add a condition to Oakensoul that states "any 2 bar requirement skill is treated as if it's on 2 bars despite using only 1".. or something like that. There is always a solution.

Decision's like this and cast times constantly make me think the dev's are playing a different game, I've met very few people who like those design choices, they just tolerate or feel neutral about them. That's not a great standard to be okay with in my opinion.

bar_boss_A

Reading it has a two-bar requirement actually made it interesting for me. I am waiting years for a world/guild skill lines with pets similar to sorc and the banner might hit that spot for me. Gonna test soon.