Will there ever be more power/content in the CS in the future?

spartaxoxo · September 12

For the first time, companions will be part of the crown store in quarter 4. While they represent a very small boost of power in content that is mostly not competitive, it's also the first time that I can recall any such item being in the CS. I have certainly used Companions to increase my power in fights, and to even be able to complete them at all without significant changes to my build. There are enemies that Bastian can tank easily that I can't without changing my build.

I find this a bit worrisome as I want the crown store to remain purely cosmetic or time-saving. Could we get any insight into what led to this decision? Will this be the plan for companions from now on? I know ZOS has indicated in the past they are against P2W, and I wouldn't go so far as calling the companions that, but is still something that they're committed to?

JavaRen · September 12

Access to DLC content for gear and some skills is also crown store or ESO+ restricted, heck older companions were part of chapter purchases, so how is this a change?

spartaxoxo · September 12

JavaRen wrote: »

Access to DLC content for gear and some skills is also crown store or ESO+ restricted, heck older companions were part of chapter purchases, so how is this a change?

DLC is different from the crown store. Usually, when you buy a game with a dlc model, you'll get all the important content with that purchase. It's different to having to buy it piece-by-piece from the crown store, especially since P2W games are quite often sparse on content.

Syldras · September 12

I don't think ZOS really considered companions this way. For them, they probably mainly mean "roleplay item + extra storyline + houseguest".

AzuraFan · September 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

JavaRen wrote: »

Access to DLC content for gear and some skills is also crown store or ESO+ restricted, heck older companions were part of chapter purchases, so how is this a change?

DLC is different from the crown store. Usually, when you buy a game with a dlc model, you'll get all the important content with that purchase. It's different to having to buy it piece-by-piece from the crown store, especially since P2W games are quite often sparse on content.

But the end result is the same. To differentiate buying DLCs and buying stuff from the crown store is splitting hairs. In both cases, you're paying for the companions.

sarahthes · September 12

Deadlands and Markarth and Murkmire and Clockwork City were all paid DLCs (4th quarter, full access granted to ESO+ subscribers) that added considerably more powerful items to the game than 2 companions will.

Deadlands: Kynmarcher (pvp niche but useful set), Markyn ring of majesty (pvp meta mythic), spaulder of ruin (endgame pve meta mythic), wretched vitality (pvp meta set)

Markarth: Vateshran destro staves, especially ice (meta pvp set), pearls of ehlnofey (endgame pve meta mythic), vateshran s&b (situationally useful pve tank set), ring of the pale order (meta mythic with a TON of uses)

Murkmire: Dead-Water's Guile (formerly meta set until it was nerfed), brp resto (endgame pve and sometimes pvp resto staff), brp dual wield (endgame pvp and pve meta set, at times), brp bow (likewise - both pvp and pve sometimes)

Clockwork City: transmutation, asylum destro (former meta pve endgame set), mad tinkerer (situational pvp set that has been popular in the past), mechanical acuity (meta endgame pvp and pve set), unfathomable darkness (niche pvp set)

Southern Elsweyr: new moon acolyte (former meta/meta-adjacent pve and pvp set)

Putting power in Q4 paid dlc, whether that's an adventure or a companion, is hardly new.

spartaxoxo · September 12

sarahthes wrote: »

Putting power in Q4 paid dlc, whether that's an adventure or a companion, is hardly new.

It's not in a dlc. It's in the crown store. DLC has storylines, it has features, it has way more than just some power.

AzuraFan · September 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Putting power in Q4 paid dlc, whether that's an adventure or a companion, is hardly new.

It's not in a dlc. It's in the crown store. DLC has storylines, it has features, it has way more than just some power.

So it's okay to pay for powerful items as long as they're mixed in with other stuff, rather than paid for on their own? Doesn't make sense.

JemadarofCaerSalis · September 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Putting power in Q4 paid dlc, whether that's an adventure or a companion, is hardly new.

It's not in a dlc. It's in the crown store. DLC has storylines, it has features, it has way more than just some power.

You could argue that companions have story lines and features.

They have quests that give their personal storyline, while this isn't technically storyline*s*, it is still a storyline.

The feature is that most of them have some sort of perk that gives you access to something you wouldn't normally have, such as the highlight to heavy sacks or the picklocking passive.

So, while definitely not as grand as DLCs, I would say that companions are more than just some power.

sarahthes · September 12

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Putting power in Q4 paid dlc, whether that's an adventure or a companion, is hardly new.

It's not in a dlc. It's in the crown store. DLC has storylines, it has features, it has way more than just some power.

My understanding is the 2 companions will have unique and involved personal questlines, both the ones you do to unlock them and then the various loyalty missions.

freespirit · September 12

How are two companions any different to whole skill lines or a zone's worth of Skyshards?

I do not believe either of those things to be "cosmetic" but they have been available to buy on subsequent characters for a long time.

Skyshards definitely add more power!

sarahthes · September 12

One other thing to note - the most 'pay to win' (I do despise the term tbh but people are using it so I will) content in the entire game is the Greymoor DLC, followed by Gold Road. You cannot be competitive in endgame pvp or pve without access to both of those chapters.

spartaxoxo · September 12

freespirit wrote: »

How are two companions any different to whole skill lines or a zone's worth of Skyshards?

I do not believe either of those things to be "cosmetic" but they have been available to buy on subsequent characters for a long time.

Skyshards definitely add more power!

Skyshards are also available for free in-game and don't take an excessive amount of time to obtain.

P2W is when power items are specifically in the cash, and it's either the only way to obtain them or the amount of grind they save is extremely excessive.

It's not usually used to refer to DLC as DLC gives a lot of content, so DLC doesn't discourage developers from constantly improving the game rather than just tossing a bunch of power in the store. It's fundamentally a concept about prioritizing the customer experience rather than a shot at all gameplay monetization models.

freespirit · September 12

"Amount of grind they save is extremely excessive"

Sorry but I think that adequately sums up the Psijic Order Skill Line and quite possibly Cyrodill Skyshards too.

Although Cyro Skyshards are a matter of luck and right Alliance at right time I suppose.

Erickson9610 · September 12

It takes a long time to level up a Companion to unlock their skills. That time investment is similar to how you'd need to interact with DLC features, like learning Jewelry Crafting, obtaining Transmute Crystals, or farming Vateshran Hollows.

And, as mentioned already, there's little difference between a zone with two Companions in the Crown Store versus two Companions being sold in the Crown Store directly.

katanagirl1 · September 13

I am not sure the point is getting across here.

Having companions in the Crown store instead of at chapter launch would be like releasing Morrowwind but pulling out the Warden class and putting it in the Crown store immediately instead of doing it after a period of time, in my opinion.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · September 13

AzuraFan wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Putting power in Q4 paid dlc, whether that's an adventure or a companion, is hardly new.

It's not in a dlc. It's in the crown store. DLC has storylines, it has features, it has way more than just some power.

So it's okay to pay for powerful items as long as they're mixed in with other stuff, rather than paid for on their own? Doesn't make sense.

It’s a bit like paying for a car vs. paying for tires with the rest of the car sold separately. It’s a bad precedent.

tsaescishoeshiner · September 13

It is DLC. Because it comes with ESO+, is part of an Update, and can be alternatively purchased with Crowns. In that sense, it's no different from the other Companions once their Chapters become DLC.

There's no other official definition of a DLC in ESO, but to me, it quacks like a duck.

That might not convince you that it's not a new thing, but it explains why it doesn't feel different to me.

Also, the only combat benefits they provide are very casual, so it's far far far from a pay-to-win type of thing.

P.S. I wouldn't mind getting Companion-only DLC if it means more Companions, so I wish people weren't so upset at us getting Companions as a DLC like dungeons. (2 Companions are definitely way less than a Q4 zone DLC, but they're similar to a 2-dungeon set to me.)

colossalvoids · September 13

I see it the same way as I'm getting dungeon dlc content for example as it's crown store/ESO plus exclusive, but for roleplayers and such.

Blood_again · September 13

The assistants like banker and merchant are CS exclusive except the fencer. Always have been, from day one they were introduced.
So I think placing some companions in CS is not a big deal. More than that they will be available with ESO+
While there are dlc-available companions, I don't see any problem.

Yes, sure it is pushing the limits a little. So it worth attention, what ZoS will do next in this direction. But not a problem really.

katanagirl1 · September 13

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

It is DLC. Because it comes with ESO+, is part of an Update, and can be alternatively purchased with Crowns. In that sense, it's no different from the other Companions once their Chapters become DLC.

There's no other official definition of a DLC in ESO, but to me, it quacks like a duck.

That might not convince you that it's not a new thing, but it explains why it doesn't feel different to me.

Also, the only combat benefits they provide are very casual, so it's far far far from a pay-to-win type of thing.

P.S. I wouldn't mind getting Companion-only DLC if it means more Companions, so I wish people weren't so upset at us getting Companions as a DLC like dungeons. (2 Companions are definitely way less than a Q4 zone DLC, but they're similar to a 2-dungeon set to me.)

If they had done that with Blackwood, you would now have had to buy the chapter and then pay again for the companions. That is not the way it is now, one purchase enables both.

Necrotech_Master · September 13

neither of the passives from these new companions enhance combat, so theres overall no power gain

you get more power gain buying a new class like arcanist from the crown store than a companion, as companions cannot be used in most content where you already have a full group, and are barely useful in some content such as group dungeons

the only content the companions i think make a huge difference is archive due to their significantly increased survivability

Artim_X · September 13

A companion will never be equivalent to another player. A small boon perhaps for basic content, but definitely not P2W.

sarahthes · September 13

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I am not sure the point is getting across here.

Having companions in the Crown store instead of at chapter launch would be like releasing Morrowwind but pulling out the Warden class and putting it in the Crown store immediately instead of doing it after a period of time, in my opinion.

I would only agree with this if the warden class was a companion class that could not be used by players.

There's no comparison at all between players and companions, whatsoever.

Dagoth_Rac · September 13

If these companions just appeared out of the blue, as an unprecedented feature only available via crowns? Might be sketchy. But they come with ESO+ and whatever very minor power they add to solo PvE play is identical to all the other companions in game. They are basically cosmetic reskins with a new questing storyline. You are not at any kind of competitive disadvantage whatsoever if you don't have ESO+ and don't buy them.

spartaxoxo · September 14

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

. You are not at any kind of competitive disadvantage whatsoever if you don't have ESO+ and don't buy them.

Yes, which is why I said this in my opening post and said it wasn't P2W.

Regardless, it is power in the cash shop. That is unprecedented.

They have been cutting content more and more, have pulled a feature that was part of the chapter out of it, and now they have power in the cash shop. It's too small to call P2W but it's still a new development nonetheless.

Games don't always transform to over monetized and P2W over night. They nickel and dime their way there.

Does this game seem to be heading the right direction to you? Because that's the point of this post, not debating whether or not companions are P2W. I already said they were not in the OP.

Bradyfjord · September 14

Remember that Bethesda is a pioneer when it comes to monetization. This is the horse armor in a different form.

spartaxoxo · September 14

Bradyfjord wrote: »

Remember that Bethesda is a pioneer when it comes to monetization. This is the horse armor in a different form.

I remember when I thought people were overreacting about horse armor, but once that genie was out of the bottle...

I remember when I was told I was overreacting about loot boxes in one of the first games that had them. It's just a nice birthday prize, it does not mean much. No, those specific ones did not. But once that genie was out of the bottle...

I remember when I said ESO+ had lost value because we got less new content each year with our sub, and I was told I was overreacting....

I really hope people are right this time. But, I am very worried to see chapter features being tossed into the crown store. Especially one that has power. Horse armor was small too.

Erickson9610 · September 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Regardless, it is power in the cash shop. That is unprecedented.

There absolutely is precedent. Mythics and Grimoires are power you can only get from the cash shop, because you get them from the Greymoor and Gold Road DLCs, respectively. Classes are also sold individually in the cash shop, and are probably the most direct example of power in the cash shop.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They have been cutting content more and more, have pulled a feature that was part of the chapter out of it, and now they have power in the cash shop. It's too small to call P2W but it's still a new development nonetheless.

Companions were never part of the Gold Road Chapter. They weren't "pulled out" of the Chapter. We may have received Companions with the previous three Chapter purchases, but that was never a guaranteed promise. ZOS never said we would always get Companions with each new Chapter.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Games don't always transform to over monetized and P2W over night. They nickel and dime their way there.

Does this game seem to be heading the right direction to you? Because that's the point of this post, not debating whether or not companions are P2W. I already said they were not in the OP.

There is nothing wrong with the "direction" this game is heading. This makes it sound like this game is doomed to spiral into something more and more overly monetized. I disagree that this game is going in that direction. I still assert that we may get next year's Companions with next year's Chapter, but it's important to know that it was never a promise that it would be so.

spartaxoxo · September 14

DLC isn't the same as the cash shop. And I have gone over why. But to be very clear, P2W and over monetization isn't about gameplay being charged for. It is about how it gets charged for. And P2W, by definition, has never included DLC.

Those classes don't count because they are available as purchase with DLC and came with DLC first. They were only added later as a convenience.

The new companions are ONLY available in the cash shop.

Erickson9610 · September 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

DLC isn't the same as the cash shop. And I have gone over why. But to be very clear, P2W and over monetization isn't about gameplay being charged for. It is about how it gets charged for. And P2W, by definition, has never included DLC.

I am trying to understand what you mean by P2W not including DLC. From what I understand, Pay 2 Win is something that can be bought from the cash shop to gain an advantage that other players may not have.

Old Chapters are put into the Crown Store after one year and can be bought as DLC for Crowns. If "P2W" is anything bought via the Crown Store, it should include DLC, but not Chapters which haven't entered the Crown Store yet, right? Am I understanding this right?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

P2W is when power items are specifically in the cash, and it's either the only way to obtain them or the amount of grind they save is extremely excessive.

It's not usually used to refer to DLC as DLC gives a lot of content, so DLC doesn't discourage developers from constantly improving the game rather than just tossing a bunch of power in the store. It's fundamentally a concept about prioritizing the customer experience rather than a shot at all gameplay monetization models.

So the idea is that anything that's not included in a bundle of other things is P2W, because the developers put relatively less effort into the part than the whole? P2W is about charging players for every individual feature, rather than for everything at once?

I was under the impression that Pay 2 Win was anything paid that gives the player an advantage to win.

Just because the Companions are sold separately from a big bundle doesn't make them anything different than they would be if they were included in that big bundle to begin with.