What makes the ESO combat system special and what do you like or dislike about it?

AnduinTryggva

Sarannah wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Love the way combat works in ESO, and wouldn't want it changed in general. Combat in ESO feels free.

That said, I do want the over-reliance on barswapping, animation cancelling, and weaving to be changed. Not in the way that these are removed for skilled players, but where these are done automatically for players who can't do these things, or where we have a buff in place where the player gains a compensation buff when not doing any of those things(barswapping/weaving/animation cancelling).

The above just makes the DPS gap too large, and ZOS should compensate for this very large difference.

Many elite players complain about low DPS all the time, but at the same time there is a massive outcry from elite players when ZOS introduces something to compensate and raise the floor. Like when ZOS massively nerfed oakensoul, because for once players were on par with eachother and the elite players didn't like this(including in PvP). To me this was a massive mistake from ZOS, as the unnerfed oakensoul leveled the playing field, and got more players into high end content. Again, the low amount of players in high end content is something many elite players complain about. Yet when something is introduced to change this, there is an outcry from the elite players.
Elite players contradict themselves at every turn, and in my opinion, this is causing ZOS to hold the game and it's population back. As it seems ZOS does not know how to deal with this double-sided feedback. (Note: The oakensoul was just one example, as it did something which I feel ZOS should have changed a long time ago already.)

PS: Skilled players should always be doing better damage than non-skilled players, but the DPS difference should be 75k vs 100k tops. Not 10k vs 100k.

I think there is a mythic item that reduces light attack damage in exchange for something else (Velothi maybe?) so weaving is less important. This might be what you are looking for.

On the other hand: If by automation you can achieve the same thing as people doing that manually with high skill you can as well just remove it.

I am no elite player and just scrap on dps that allows me to do some advanced content but by no means any end trifecta stuff but I have to say if you remove any advantage that skill and practice give to players I don't know...

I think the bar should be lowered (or as you express it: the floor lifted) for the average player but I think skill and training should still pay off for those who invest time in it.

If you are average and not ready to invest the time to train to reach trifecta-ready dps by skill (and not by automatation) you have to accept that some achievements like trifecta achievements are not for you. Anyhow with average skill and the right build you can do all content but alas no trifecta.

I have accepted it for me that most if not all trifecta achievements are not for me and I am fine with it.

I mean I also don't expect to win a gold medal or even participate in the Olympics. That is for the skilled ones who invest their life into these goals.

This is a game, the bigger the population the better. It's crazy to even think about the game requiring this amount of training it does require now to be a high dps player... weeks, even months! It's a game for crying out loud! ESO is not the olympics, ESO is entertainment.

You think it is better to keep the dps and survivability gap in place? And instead of growing the endgame community and keeping the endgame community healthy?

These gaps are terrible for the game and it's population. We should want more players in PvE endgame, more players in trials, more players in veteran content, more players in PvP, etc, etc. MMO's thrive on a healthy community, and these dps/survivability gaps are clearly a major obstacle. These gaps are mostly created by the combat system.

A small difference in power and survivability, like 5%, would be fine and unavoidable. But as it is now it is a 1000%-1500% gap in both dps and survivability between players.

For one this isn't fair, and second, this isn't fun! Not even for the players these lower end players get grouped with, as is evident from the many low dps and one-shots in PvP threads that keep popping up. It creates toxicity and hostility between players. Low dps players and constantly dying players get kicked, many players avoiding high endgame content, many players avoiding PvP, etc. This just isn't healthy for a game that needs a large community.

PS: I would never want the ceiling lowered only the floor raised, to avoid harming the endgame community. These two things are two very different things.

For whatever's sake you miss out on some achievements if you cannot pull level with some high end gamers. So what? You can still play any content as average player, simply not in the highest difficulty level. So what?

I am all for rising the floor but I think you need to have some space left for the highly ambitious folks among the players to give them something to go for. As a consequence an average player will never be at par with a highly trained player.

And this is not only in ESO like this. Look at all the e-sport folks. Average players will never go so far to achieve the skill level in this community. And I tell you another open secret: These e-sport people actually play games - just on a very competitive level.

Aurielle

The thing that drew me to ESO in the first place and made me give up on other MMOs for good was the combat system. I love it that there are no auto attacks and no chance-based blocks, parries, and dodges in ESO. I love it that you have to actively do all of these things that are automatically done for you in other MMOs. In other MMOs, you basically stand in one spot, tab to your target, and execute a skill rotation. You occasionally move to avoid AOEs. It’s incredibly boring and doesn’t require much physical skill or dexterity, beyond memorizing your rotation. Blocking or dodging an attack shouldn’t be a dice roll. Your weapon shouldn’t automatically fire off a light attack every second… ESO’s combat system, on the other hand, rewards skill and does not rely on RNG (beyond things like critical hits).

Pevey

Sarannah wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Love the way combat works in ESO, and wouldn't want it changed in general. Combat in ESO feels free.

That said, I do want the over-reliance on barswapping, animation cancelling, and weaving to be changed. Not in the way that these are removed for skilled players, but where these are done automatically for players who can't do these things, or where we have a buff in place where the player gains a compensation buff when not doing any of those things(barswapping/weaving/animation cancelling).

The above just makes the DPS gap too large, and ZOS should compensate for this very large difference.

Many elite players complain about low DPS all the time, but at the same time there is a massive outcry from elite players when ZOS introduces something to compensate and raise the floor. Like when ZOS massively nerfed oakensoul, because for once players were on par with eachother and the elite players didn't like this(including in PvP). To me this was a massive mistake from ZOS, as the unnerfed oakensoul leveled the playing field, and got more players into high end content. Again, the low amount of players in high end content is something many elite players complain about. Yet when something is introduced to change this, there is an outcry from the elite players.
Elite players contradict themselves at every turn, and in my opinion, this is causing ZOS to hold the game and it's population back. As it seems ZOS does not know how to deal with this double-sided feedback. (Note: The oakensoul was just one example, as it did something which I feel ZOS should have changed a long time ago already.)

PS: Skilled players should always be doing better damage than non-skilled players, but the DPS difference should be 75k vs 100k tops. Not 10k vs 100k.

I think there is a mythic item that reduces light attack damage in exchange for something else (Velothi maybe?) so weaving is less important. This might be what you are looking for.

On the other hand: If by automation you can achieve the same thing as people doing that manually with high skill you can as well just remove it.

I am no elite player and just scrap on dps that allows me to do some advanced content but by no means any end trifecta stuff but I have to say if you remove any advantage that skill and practice give to players I don't know...

I think the bar should be lowered (or as you express it: the floor lifted) for the average player but I think skill and training should still pay off for those who invest time in it.

If you are average and not ready to invest the time to train to reach trifecta-ready dps by skill (and not by automatation) you have to accept that some achievements like trifecta achievements are not for you. Anyhow with average skill and the right build you can do all content but alas no trifecta.

I have accepted it for me that most if not all trifecta achievements are not for me and I am fine with it.

I mean I also don't expect to win a gold medal or even participate in the Olympics. That is for the skilled ones who invest their life into these goals.

This is a game, the bigger the population the better. It's crazy to even think about the game requiring this amount of training it does require now to be a high dps player... weeks, even months! It's a game for crying out loud! ESO is not the olympics, ESO is entertainment.

You think it is better to keep the dps and survivability gap in place? And instead of growing the endgame community and keeping the endgame community healthy?

These gaps are terrible for the game and it's population. We should want more players in PvE endgame, more players in trials, more players in veteran content, more players in PvP, etc, etc. MMO's thrive on a healthy community, and these dps/survivability gaps are clearly a major obstacle. These gaps are mostly created by the combat system.

A small difference in power and survivability, like 5%, would be fine and unavoidable. But as it is now it is a 1000%-1500% gap in both dps and survivability between players.

For one this isn't fair, and second, this isn't fun! Not even for the players these lower end players get grouped with, as is evident from the many low dps and one-shots in PvP threads that keep popping up. It creates toxicity and hostility between players. Low dps players and constantly dying players get kicked, many players avoiding high endgame content, many players avoiding PvP, etc. This just isn't healthy for a game that needs a large community.

PS: I would never want the ceiling lowered only the floor raised, to avoid harming the endgame community. These two things are two very different things.

Arcanist was the answer to this in terms of dps. I think it’s more accessible to older hands than heavy attack builds because you don’t have to hold down the mouse button to beam like you do to heavy attack.

Also, things like lucent echoes, pearlescent, oakensoul, and pale order have aimed at improving survival while progging content, whether group or solo. We did Yaseala HM and the griffin dude HM once with a oakensorc dps in the group.

But there will still be some prog for the hardest content. If not, we would be asking them to make harder content. We want there to be effort involved. Standing in red in the game and ignoring mechanics will usually get you killed, as it should.

With some of the recent changes like the addition of arcanist, velothi, etc., dps is more dependent on having the right build for the content you’re doing and adjusting the build when needed. In other words, in aoe trash encounters, you’re not going to be doing high damage in your boss setup compared to someone who has switched to a trash setup. The difference can be huge, even if you are pulling the maximum possible damage you can from that boss setup. This is good, because it has provided reasons to want more of the sets in the game versus a few years ago. More sets have situational uses. This is the point of the game to some people, collecting these sets, maxing out our sticker book. We like it. If you don’t take the time to do this, your damage will be way less. But that’s okay, you can still complete any content in the game in a single crafted setup. Not all HMs, but all vets. And that’s in large part due to other players who do feel like putting in the hours.

When my dps was much lower, only then did I have to think about whether the other dps in a vet dungeon, if they were doing even less dps, was going to hold us back. Now, I don’t care as long as they are trying. I know we can still complete it smoothly. The most experienced, highest dps players in the game are rarely the ones to kick in a pug. It’s the more middling dps players who are scared they won’t complete the content if the other dps is not at least as good as they are. And that’s a reasonable fear.

Vaqual

I like: Being able to adjust my playstyle 100 % to my liking. I can play dot or burst, tanky or glass cannon, I can build for sustain or quick disengages, etc. - and all of that with a greater freedom than in any other game. I like that I can have preferences and that I have the tools to make them work.

I dislike: Some animations are horrendously bad, e.g. Grim Focus: Has a permanent glow obnoxious glow and when activated despawns your weapon without any semblance of elegance in the design until you hold a red bow sideways....When there is a lot of power locked behind sets and abilities like that it becomes quite frustrating. I play this as an RPG not as some kind of arcade game.

Joy_Division

The combat system is great. Fluid, dynamic, fast-paced.

The combat balance is awful.

Juomuuri

I like the combat a lot, it's very interactive. I'm mostly tanking dungeons and I enjoy my job of blocking, bashing, interrupting, keeping aggro and dancing with the bosses so my group can slamdunk them. However, I sometimes run into interesting lag scenarios, among which was my recent duo 6 key pledge run with my friend... We were doing vSW HM and Selene's heavy attack showed as if it had already hit me on my end, thus me slapping my ult in, but the game decided she wasn't actually finished with her animation and I was slapped and nearly died... Fun times. Would be appreciated if the animations didn't get borked like this, happens from time to time.

N00BxV1

I like that I can press buttons to use abilities. I dislike when I press buttons but the abilities don't work.

gamergirldk

But personally the worst thing about combat is the complete lack of class identity. Aside from maybe Arcanist and Necromancer, classes don't really have any mechanics unique to them. If you asked me how Dragon Knight plays, I wouldn't know how to answer, because it plays like every other class.

This happend because people complaint and nagged endlessly about other classes skills.. " X can do this.. I want to do that too... Now everyone is the same apart from Arcanist and yeah Necs.


Instead of really optimizing the weaker classes toolkit they just ruin it all with the Hybridization makeover...

shadyjane62

Fix "stuck in combat".

Now. Thank you.

Pelanora

Only thing I really dislike is that nearly all variations in animation are on the abilities, not on the effects on the npc/bosses.

Can't throw 'em in the air then zap then throw them somewhere. I can knock them back, which is fun. But they don't electrify and shudder if I zap rhem. They don't get blown by waves of air. They just fall over flat- they don't even collapse; at best they turn to ash.

Artem_gig

For me, the biggest disadvantage of the teso action is its dynamics. It's more like playing the piano than fighting. Mixing light attacks with skills in the correct sequence. Because of this, every fight is the same and routine. Only the unique boss mechanics save you, but on all other mobs, it's routine. It's no wonder why all players just run through mobs. Weaving is terrible, no matter what anyone says, it's a crutch. Light attacks are only needed to activate the build, and so they have only 10% of the total damage. I would like light and heavy attacks to be more significant in damage, and skills, in turn, are more optional. The whole fighting game is tied to them, and as a result they are perceived not as a unique skill that has its own unique application in certain situations, but as just a way to inflict damage (other skills responsible for strengthening or weakening suit me, they have a problem that it is still playing the piano). I would (although many people did not like it) put a small cooldown on the skills intended for damage (spam skills), as well as add some more unique secondary effect to them. Then I would raise the damage to light and heavy attacks, and add more impact and unique animations to them (maybe combos). For example, if the opponent had blocked the blow, the sword would have bounced instead of continuing to fly. I would add a little shaking of the camera, because so far the game has it only in the first person. Also, projectiles that fly from opponents do not cause damage at all. You simply don't pay attention to them. I would increase their damage as well. I would also like the bow not to shoot itself during a heavy attack. I would generally increase the difficulty of the opponents, but at the same time reduce their number. One character (4 if you are in a group) fights literally with an army of mobs. Of course, I understand that the character of the game is a hero, but it's still weird. A good example is the number of simultaneous opponents in Skyrim, or Dark Souls (and no, the fact that teso is an mmo is not an argument, there are many MMOs where the emphasis is on the complexity of the enemy, not the number). That would be a nice fight for me (although I think it's just for me).
And I also don't like that the game doesn't actually allow you to play (if you want to go through high-level content) whoever you want. Meta is in every game, but damn. It kills diversity so much. I don't like that the second skill panel is not a way to change the fighting style, right during the battle, but just an addition to the first panel, packed with dots, buffs and debuffs (not counting pvp). I would like to be able to change my fighting style (change weapons) and not lose damage at the same time. Switch from a two-handed sword to a bow or vice versa, depending on how far the enemy is, and at the same time not lose damage. But alas, in fact, using only one panel, the damage will drop by half. And the weapons on the second panel are not designed for spam skills. Because it is more effective to put weapons from the arena on the second panel, which has a buff to some dota from its weapons branch. Here. And so, I really like the mechanics of opponents, bosses, and the skills themselves. It's just a pity that it's a pity to waste time fighting with ordinary mobs because of the routine.

Artem_gig

Oh, yes, I also don't like too much rapid regeneration of health.

Artem_gig

To be honest, I only start to like the fight when I have a small DPS. I use skills as I want, I use light and heavy attacks not in weaving, I use different weapons depending on the needs, both panels are unique in the style of combat, and not so that the second panel would be built for the first one. It's cool to play with a little DPS, and the opponents in the base locations become more interesting... as if this was originally intended. But still, the basic locations are a small percentage of all those fights in teso that are now present.

Zodiarkslayer

GuuMoonRyoung wrote: »

I agree that we need separate balance system for PvE and PvP. I always say that PvP and PvE should have different skills, gears, passives and so on.

Exactly! Me, too. It is one if two things that puts me off in ESO's combat.

The other being the total absence of contextual damage multipliers.
The principle of blocking/evading an attack and then counter attacking an open/weak spot is essential in any type of real world martial fighting styles, from Karate to HEMA. And there is simply no equivalent in ESO.

Another multiplier is something like damage bonuses against certain types of monsters. I mean, we have this super extensive beastiary and it holds no significance apart from the few achievements for farming the type-specific treasure drop. You know, Crypt Jar and the like.
Just imagine 50% damage bonus to ghosts, 10% to all undead or 50% less damage from beasts.
This holds so much potential. Everything is in place. And it's not used at all.

kaushad

It feels sticky. In more difficult fights, one of my most common thoughts is "why isn't my character doing anything?".

In older TES, that's typically clearly because a guy with battleaxe or a bear or something just floored them. In ESO, it's more difficult to follow what's happening because attacks tend to come from all directions. Area effects make first person combat more difficult, whilst zooming out makes it more difficult to see right in front. I remember those netches in Darkshade Caverns in particular. I can only tell when my character is stunned from his screams because all I see is a swarm of netches. The other challenge is the fight can run ahead of the graphic display.

Stealth archery is near neglible. It's an important part of ganking, but it has to be followed by a flurry of other attacks. For that matter, unfair mechanics are mostly restricted. That's a bit boring.

In spite of that frustration, I do find a lot of it quite satisfying. Like yesterday, the last boss in trial wiped all but one of the group, a few seconds before that player survived and finished it off. And melee combat isn't that great in most TES games. And apart from dedicated fighting games like Soul Calibur, I don't know which other games really do it well.