What makes the ESO combat system special and what do you like or dislike about it?

AnduinTryggva

From time to time I am considering the ESO combat system, the way it is, how it is built, and how you progress through it. I always come to the conclusion that I have mixed feelings about it.

I appreciate its modularity and that, apart from race and class choice you can combine anything. The concept of light and heavy attack weaving makes it also unique to my knowledge even though it is a point that I just accept that it is like that without specifically appreciating or hating it.

Then I sometimes compare it to how other rpg work that have more like a tree-like progression. While these tree-like progression somehow is less flexible and much much less modular it gives a stronger sense of progression and as such feels much more rpg than the ESO style and which I sorely miss in ESO.

What are your thoughts about it?

What do you like about it and why?

What not? What would you prefer and why?

Anifaas

I like that combat is fast and now that I'm used to it I enjoy producing a nice smooth weave in my rotation. Feels good. To be honest, ESO has killed my desire to engage in standard tab-target combat systems.

I hate the game/server architecture because it frequently makes combat feel awful when in large groups (lag, abilities not registering, skill bars not switching, irregular disconnects). I also hate most of the skill effects because they look very antiquated and somewhat cheap. It is frustrating that even with a $9k computer and a 2 Gbps fibre connection the combat graphics still look like the 2000s and perform like we're all still on DSL connections.

I also feel that the combat design team relies on cheap mechanics too often rather than design more interesting fights. Immunity phases, excessive crowd control and too many 1-shot kills make boss fights feel like a chore rather than an adventure.

thegreeneso

I dislike how boring skills and classes are. So many skills and countless possible combinations, and yet everything feels samey. Almost evey DPS rotation can be summarized as "apply DOTs/buffs, spam generic damage skill, repeat".

But personally the worst thing about combat is the complete lack of class identity. Aside from maybe Arcanist and Necromancer, classes don't really have any mechanics unique to them. If you asked me how Dragon Knight plays, I wouldn't know how to answer, because it plays like every other class.

At this point everything is so homogenized it feels like there is only one play style for DPS.

colossalvoids

My only issue is that this exact game made me engage with tab-target-like games less, way less. A fan of this mix of an mmo combat with action rpg take, also the lack GCD's is one of the reasons I initially liked it as my previous "main" game outside of Scrolls was leaning heavily on it as a balancing tool and it just felt bad. And addition of minor cast times almost destroyed my entire enjoyment of it because of the same reasoning.

DinoZavr

i like ESO combat, as it is fast and dynamic, though there are two downsides:
- first, and the most important: due to fast pace the fast server response becomes crucial. when i play at PC/EU my ping is normally stays within 110mS..150mS and this is quite comfortable. when i switch to PC/NA the typical ping is about 250mS, plus my character literally freezes for more than a second (probably due to packet losses) and it is totally not fun.
- second: the targeting system requiring to keep cursor on target is not great, but, yet, tolerable.

TL/DR; combat is good. lags and freezes kill it completely.

TaSheen

I don't find it special, and I dislike it intensely. I would (if possible, and if I had any interest at all in combat - I don't) prefer the way combat skills and spells were handled in WoW back when I played (2006-2013).

GuuMoonRyoung

ESO combat system still has some stupid problems, for example, I initiate an attack and the mob is in range, but the mob initiated an attack on someone else and starts moving, my character just stands there like a dummy until the mob stops moving and then attacks. This needs to go as well as the dreadful weaving system.

Cosmo_Nova

Personally I never liked light attack weaving. The entire combat rotation revolving around an animation cancel feels clunky to me. It's a weird and counterintuitive skill to try and learn, and visually it just looks bad with your character awkwardly jerking with every light attack. I get the skill appeal of doing increased DPS if you can learn to attack in a rhythm, but the way it's implemented feels more like exploiting a bug than engaging with a feature.

SkaiFaith

I've grown to love ESO's combat, but this statement needs many notes:


I don't enjoy light attack weaving but I do heavy attack weaving, being an Oakensoul only player.
I love that even with my health issues I can achieve huge things solo, like Dungeons and wandering bosses.
I very much like the action it has! Every time I watch a FF14 gameplay I feel so bored by the tab target nature (same with similar games). It's one of its strong points.
ESO fights can be extremely intense and fast and yet doable in solo.

I'm in favor of the recent shift to hybridization - I never liked having to put 64 points in one attribute and that's it; I prefer building with all attributes, and stat sets like Druid's Braid (which is also craftable!) can take you far and wide if you are not aiming for trifectas. Another reason why I enjoy how Food buffs work, adding extreme value to builds depending on situations.
I don't like the fact we don't have separate balances for PvP and PvE, since many of us have seen many times their builds getting destroyed because the other side was broken.
I like that we have tons of sets that can be cool even for just roleplay purposes but I don't like that often times top tier players find themselves wearing everyone the same gear.

People are often discontent with the lack of weight on attacks, and I agree, since with melee it feels like you are catching mosquitos, but I personally only use Lightning staves which are probably the best weapon in regards of weight of heavy attacks. So yeah, this could very much being improved.
I have all classes but I love my Warden and I rarely use the others. I love Warden's combat but I can't say the same for other classes. Still these are tastes, I wouldn't say other classes play badly since many players prefer/enjoy them.
Diversity? I still feel classes play very differently if you want, but yeah, if you want you can also make the same identical build on any class, especially with Oakensoul + Scribing now. And in my opinion this is a plus, not a minus.

Recently I described Elder Scrolls combat as "nostalgic", that makes you feel you are still in the '90s, hoping that future Elder Scrolls games stick with this style and don't abandon their nature following a "Souls" style.
If I'd have to chose between a super action game, a la BDO, or a tab target one like FF14, or the middle ground which is ESO... I would always choose ESO.


I understand ESO's combat is not for everyone, but it gets me like no other...!

AzuraFan

I like that it's dynamic and feels more like combat in a single-player game. I've come to appreciate how you can create builds based on how skills in different lines synergize, so unless you chase whatever's meta, there's a lot of variety.

I don't like the 2-bar system. Having to switch bars when timers run down is probably one the dumbest combat dynamics I've experienced in a game (and I've played a LOT of games). It really makes combat feel like a chore at times. I don't like the heavy-attack-restores-resources aspect, and I hate light-attack weaving.

SeaUnicorn

It's fast paced but 1s gcd makes it very rythmical, like dancing.
My favorite rotation of all time is Elemental Weapon Sorc and 2GCD semi-spammable (olden days Warden and Necro).
Dislike would be tab targeting system, it's not real tab target and it will prioritize bigger hit box making it unreliable in places with large invisible hit boxes that do not line up with the actual shape of the boss, like Dragons, Olms, even Zmaja sometimes.

rothan117

I like the faster speed of combat compared to other MMORPGs. I like that you basically have only 7 keys for combat and you have to make strategic choices in what abilities to slot for a particular hard fight. Other MMORPGs (WoW, LOTRO and SWTOR) I play have way too many abilities available at once and you end up having to keybind a bunch of niche abilities.

Too many games think that damage sponges that take forever to kill while they pose no threat to the player character are somehow fun. They just pointlessly drag out combat.

Estin

When the game works (no lag, abilities not firing despite doing nothing wrong, no animation errors), I really enjoy how the combat feels. It's very interactable to the point where it feels like you're in complete control of your character. Every other MMO that I've played feels like you're a passive player just watching the screen as you auto attack and wait for abilities to go off cool down. You could compare it to the Manual vs Automatic debate for cars. I think the lack of the stereotypical giant ability box most MMOs have helps a lot since you have less you need to memorize and can focus on engaging with the game. Basic attacks being on a separate GCD than abilities combined with the 1s GCD for abilities also provides for a very fast and smooth gameplay experience, when it works. I only became proficient in 3 classes (NB, Necro, and then DK), but I can say they have all felt unique from each other which is a good thing imo.

When it doesn't work, whether through lag or bugs, I don't like it.

GuuMoonRyoung

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I've grown to love ESO's combat, but this statement needs many notes:


I don't enjoy light attack weaving but I do heavy attack weaving, being an Oakensoul only player.
I love that even with my health issues I can achieve huge things solo, like Dungeons and wandering bosses.
I very much like the action it has! Every time I watch a FF14 gameplay I feel so bored by the tab target nature (same with similar games). It's one of its strong points.
ESO fights can be extremely intense and fast and yet doable in solo.

I'm in favor of the recent shift to hybridization - I never liked having to put 64 points in one attribute and that's it; I prefer building with all attributes, and stat sets like Druid's Braid (which is also craftable!) can take you far and wide if you are not aiming for trifectas. Another reason why I enjoy how Food buffs work, adding extreme value to builds depending on situations.
I don't like the fact we don't have separate balances for PvP and PvE, since many of us have seen many times their builds getting destroyed because the other side was broken.
I like that we have tons of sets that can be cool even for just roleplay purposes but I don't like that often times top tier players find themselves wearing everyone the same gear.

People are often discontent with the lack of weight on attacks, and I agree, since with melee it feels like you are catching mosquitos, but I personally only use Lightning staves which are probably the best weapon in regards of weight of heavy attacks. So yeah, this could very much being improved.
I have all classes but I love my Warden and I rarely use the others. I love Warden's combat but I can't say the same for other classes. Still these are tastes, I wouldn't say other classes play badly since many players prefer/enjoy them.
Diversity? I still feel classes play very differently if you want, but yeah, if you want you can also make the same identical build on any class, especially with Oakensoul + Scribing now. And in my opinion this is a plus, not a minus.

Recently I described Elder Scrolls combat as "nostalgic", that makes you feel you are still in the '90s, hoping that future Elder Scrolls games stick with this style and don't abandon their nature following a "Souls" style.
If I'd have to chose between a super action game, a la BDO, or a tab target one like FF14, or the middle ground which is ESO... I would always choose ESO.


I understand ESO's combat is not for everyone, but it gets me like no other...!

I recently tried to play both WoW and FF14 as they released new expansion, bloody hell, the combat for new characters is just plain sleep inducing, I literally fell asleep on keyboard multiple times before calling it quits for FF14. I managed to go on quite a bit longer for WoW but in the end, it was also so stupidly boring that I started dozing off. ESO combat has completely spoiled me.

I agree that we need separate balance system for PvE and PvP. I always say that PvP and PvE should have different skills, gears, passives and so on.

Twohothardware

ESO has some of the best action combat for an MMO but the animations, graphics, light/heavy attack weaving, ect is dated and if they're going to keep going on this current game engine we need a Combat 2.0 update.

I kind of thought that's what we would get with Scrybing but we ended up just getting a bunch of mostly random mish mashed skills with lackluster animations and they didn't touch the core existing class and weapon skills in the game.

Stamicka

I like pretty much everything about the fundamentals of ESO combat. I like light attack weaving, the fact that you have to have your reticle on a target to attack, the lack of cooldowns, the barswapping, resource management, animation canceling, the fact that block, roll, and bash are outside of the GCD and feel fast.

Most of my complaints have to do with changing things from how they originally were. I don't like that so many stuns on damaging abilities have been taken away, I don't like how the devs have slowed down how quickly you can block and barswap, they've also slowed down projectile travel times. Classes feel much more samey now as well, which is partly due to hybridization which I didn't like. All and all I feel like ESO had a better combat system in 2016 than it does now. It only needed minor adjustments. Now with a lot of small changes adding up, the combat system feels more slow, stale, and low risk high reward. It's much more boring, but still better than almost anything else I've played with the exception of For Honor.

Pevey

thegreeneso wrote: »

I dislike how boring skills and classes are. So many skills and countless possible combinations, and yet everything feels samey. Almost evey DPS rotation can be summarized as "apply DOTs/buffs, spam generic damage skill, repeat".

But personally the worst thing about combat is the complete lack of class identity. Aside from maybe Arcanist and Necromancer, classes don't really have any mechanics unique to them. If you asked me how Dragon Knight plays, I wouldn't know how to answer, because it plays like every other class.

At this point everything is so homogenized it feels like there is only one play style for DPS.

I completely agree with this, especially the part I bolded. It's even worse since update 35 since in in the vast majority of combat encounters in the game, there is zero reason to use a DOT. It's a damage loss compared to just using that GCD for a spammable because the fight will be over before you get sufficient value from that DOT. So... just prebuff then spammable. Just have to choose between single target or AOE. Combat pre-U35 was better. Using DOTs actually made sense in more situations.

zaria

colossalvoids wrote: »

My only issue is that this exact game made me engage with tab-target-like games less, way less. A fan of this mix of an mmo combat with action rpg take, also the lack GCD's is one of the reasons I initially liked it as my previous "main" game outside of Scrolls was leaning heavily on it as a balancing tool and it just felt bad. And addition of minor cast times almost destroyed my entire enjoyment of it because of the same reasoning.

Also I would not enjoy TES 6 much unless I could just pop other skills on command, not swapping skill for then use.
Now this might not work on an controller but I assume some shift click system?

Destai

My biggest issue is just skills not firing. I notice this a lot with more mobile mobs, but it overall seems like a system that's quite susceptible to lag. When it works, I really like it, which is most of the time. But over the years, it just seems like it's been hit or miss at times.

joergino

I simply hate it.

chessalavakia_ESO

I'm not a fan.

I think it's too flashy in first person.

I think in third person you run into animations that either don't feel powerful or don't necessarily reflect how you'd like your character to act.

I think you have too much power tied to buffs which can lead to feeling forced to use specific items or skills.

I think gearing also can have too much power which makes the content harder to balance for wide ranges of players.

I think too much of the damage in fights is coming from mechanics vs regular attacks. This leads to players that know what they are doing barely getting hurt and thus not feeling challenged at all and worse/newer players ending up in trouble in the same content. It also can feel like your are playing Simon Says. In harder content, this can leave the healers unable to do much for their team because their teammates mistakes get them one shot. In easier content, the mechanics may not ever actually fire if the group does enough damage.

I think healing is too cost effective on tank slanted builds and is too effective on DPS slanted builds leading to players being too hard to kill in PvP and making healer builds feel a bit useless in parts of the group content.

Food has so much power it feels like a forced option rather than being a stylistic choice.

Potions in my view should be cheaper to make them more widely available but, should also have an attached combat cost so they are less about advantage and more about trade offs to avoid needlessly creating player effectiveness gaps.

I'm not a fan of animation cancellation in games because it creates needless gaps in player effectiveness that frequently looks or feels bad.

I feel stealth has too much of a role in PvP combat and delivers too little value in PvE.

I feel that the TTK in ESO is rarely ideal. PvP seems to either be people getting popped really fast or taking forever to go down. PvE frequently hits similar situations. When you've got a decent group in a normal dungeon everything dies too fast. When you are solo on a poorly geared char that isn't a lowbie things can take too long to die. Even geared, you can end up in situations where trash takes longer to go down than one might like.

West93

Love it in pvp, dislike it in pve.

Bradyfjord

I really like it. I like feeling like I can outplay an encounter (pvp or pve) if I play well.

Lags

it takes skill. someone who doesnt try will never do as well as someone who puts in effort. Despite how much as zos tries to minimalize that. Also small choices you make matter. Not nearly as much as they used to, but still somewhat. There seems to be a pattern with zos trying to make things easier in the game and with combat. Hmm, i wonder why.

Morvan

I like how it's fast paced and has a long learning curve, the downside for that is that it can easily give a bad impression to anyone who either expect the game to play like other TES games (light and heavy attack spam) or other MMORPG (ridiculous amount of skills on your screen that have cooldowns and mostly do the same thing).

I'd say that for most people who dislike the combat and for myself included as I started playing, it can feel weird when you don't understand how it works, once you invest time and learn how to rotate and weave, everything clicks together and it actually feels very good.

moderatelyfatman

It's fast pace kind of created an overlap between regular MMO players and more shooter players in the PvP game. It was a very unique situation, especially in Cyrodiil where builds could vary so much within classes that you weren't sure what to expect.

But that was a long time ago. These days every wannabe ganker is running Tarnished and every necro is a tank. Class and build diversity went out the window with Hybridisation Homogenisation and then tank became PvP meta after patch 35.

Sarannah

Love the way combat works in ESO, and wouldn't want it changed in general. Combat in ESO feels free.

That said, I do want the over-reliance on barswapping, animation cancelling, and weaving to be changed. Not in the way that these are removed for skilled players, but where these are done automatically for players who can't do these things, or where we have a buff in place where the player gains a compensation buff when not doing any of those things(barswapping/weaving/animation cancelling).

The above just makes the DPS gap too large, and ZOS should compensate for this very large difference.

Many elite players complain about low DPS all the time, but at the same time there is a massive outcry from elite players when ZOS introduces something to compensate and raise the floor. Like when ZOS massively nerfed oakensoul, because for once players were on par with eachother and the elite players didn't like this(including in PvP). To me this was a massive mistake from ZOS, as the unnerfed oakensoul leveled the playing field, and got more players into high end content. Again, the low amount of players in high end content is something many elite players complain about. Yet when something is introduced to change this, there is an outcry from the elite players.
Elite players contradict themselves at every turn, and in my opinion, this is causing ZOS to hold the game and it's population back. As it seems ZOS does not know how to deal with this double-sided feedback. (Note: The oakensoul was just one example, as it did something which I feel ZOS should have changed a long time ago already.)

PS: Skilled players should always be doing better damage than non-skilled players, but the DPS difference should be 75k vs 100k tops. Not 10k vs 100k.

AnduinTryggva

Sarannah wrote: »

Love the way combat works in ESO, and wouldn't want it changed in general. Combat in ESO feels free.

That said, I do want the over-reliance on barswapping, animation cancelling, and weaving to be changed. Not in the way that these are removed for skilled players, but where these are done automatically for players who can't do these things, or where we have a buff in place where the player gains a compensation buff when not doing any of those things(barswapping/weaving/animation cancelling).

The above just makes the DPS gap too large, and ZOS should compensate for this very large difference.

Many elite players complain about low DPS all the time, but at the same time there is a massive outcry from elite players when ZOS introduces something to compensate and raise the floor. Like when ZOS massively nerfed oakensoul, because for once players were on par with eachother and the elite players didn't like this(including in PvP). To me this was a massive mistake from ZOS, as the unnerfed oakensoul leveled the playing field, and got more players into high end content. Again, the low amount of players in high end content is something many elite players complain about. Yet when something is introduced to change this, there is an outcry from the elite players.
Elite players contradict themselves at every turn, and in my opinion, this is causing ZOS to hold the game and it's population back. As it seems ZOS does not know how to deal with this double-sided feedback. (Note: The oakensoul was just one example, as it did something which I feel ZOS should have changed a long time ago already.)

PS: Skilled players should always be doing better damage than non-skilled players, but the DPS difference should be 75k vs 100k tops. Not 10k vs 100k.

I think there is a mythic item that reduces light attack damage in exchange for something else (Velothi maybe?) so weaving is less important. This might be what you are looking for.

On the other hand: If by automation you can achieve the same thing as people doing that manually with high skill you can as well just remove it.

I am no elite player and just scrap on dps that allows me to do some advanced content but by no means any end trifecta stuff but I have to say if you remove any advantage that skill and practice give to players I don't know...

I think the bar should be lowered (or as you express it: the floor lifted) for the average player but I think skill and training should still pay off for those who invest time in it.

If you are average and not ready to invest the time to train to reach trifecta-ready dps by skill (and not by automatation) you have to accept that some achievements like trifecta achievements are not for you. Anyhow with average skill and the right build you can do all content but alas no trifecta.

I have accepted it for me that most if not all trifecta achievements are not for me and I am fine with it.

I mean I also don't expect to win a gold medal or even participate in the Olympics. That is for the skilled ones who invest their life into these goals.

alpha_synuclein

The good:
1. Combat is fast paced, feels active and responsive.
Barely any skills have cooldowns. LA weaving contribute to the pace a lot, but aside of LA, the fact that we can block, dodge or barswap within the same gcd as casting a skill adds a lot of dynamics.

2. Two-bar system allowing for smooth use of two differnt weapons.
Also, the 5 skills plus ult per bar can be made complex without bloating bars with extra abilities that we barely ever cast but still need a keybind for.

3. Three distinctive skill lines for all classess and the ability to unlock all without being shoehorn in one branch of a talent tree.

4. I like the way that support roles are design, with buffing being significant part of playing support from a relatively early stages.

5. Good selection of buff/debuff sets that add extra layers to support playstyle.
Also, lots of space for group optimization for those who want to get into it.

The bad:
1. Chanelled skills, especially spammables.
They are awkward to weave and most feels off when casting outside of prebuff. That include heavy attacks. The one from resto and lightning staves (when working correctly) are manageable, but any other weapon is just unpleasant.

2. Hybridization and all it's consequences.
I enjoyed the stamina and magica distinctive playstyles that we had before. Now we're all a bit of everything and it's boring. Also, it pretty much took away most of the sustain support part of healing.

3. Healing based mostly on resto staff and generic skill lines vs class skills.
It makes all the healers play very similarly, with classess adding just a bit of flavour or few specific buffs/debuffs. Up the class heals for more diversity.

4. Damage coming from gear sets and procs being more impactful that damage coming from skills.
Also feels like a recent trend. The thing that hook me up on eso in the long term was it feeling like a game where gear grind mattered much less than self improvement when it comes to dealing damage. No gear scores etc. Your power comes (mostly) from your actions and rotation matters the most. That feels almost gone now, outside of the most sweaty content.
Class abilities especially were nerfed quite a lot in comparison to some proc sets.

fizzylu

I hate having to reapply buffs every 20-30 seconds when fights can last forever in this game (mostly speaking about PvP, but it's also annoying in PvE).

Sarannah

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Love the way combat works in ESO, and wouldn't want it changed in general. Combat in ESO feels free.

That said, I do want the over-reliance on barswapping, animation cancelling, and weaving to be changed. Not in the way that these are removed for skilled players, but where these are done automatically for players who can't do these things, or where we have a buff in place where the player gains a compensation buff when not doing any of those things(barswapping/weaving/animation cancelling).

The above just makes the DPS gap too large, and ZOS should compensate for this very large difference.

Many elite players complain about low DPS all the time, but at the same time there is a massive outcry from elite players when ZOS introduces something to compensate and raise the floor. Like when ZOS massively nerfed oakensoul, because for once players were on par with eachother and the elite players didn't like this(including in PvP). To me this was a massive mistake from ZOS, as the unnerfed oakensoul leveled the playing field, and got more players into high end content. Again, the low amount of players in high end content is something many elite players complain about. Yet when something is introduced to change this, there is an outcry from the elite players.
Elite players contradict themselves at every turn, and in my opinion, this is causing ZOS to hold the game and it's population back. As it seems ZOS does not know how to deal with this double-sided feedback. (Note: The oakensoul was just one example, as it did something which I feel ZOS should have changed a long time ago already.)

PS: Skilled players should always be doing better damage than non-skilled players, but the DPS difference should be 75k vs 100k tops. Not 10k vs 100k.

I think there is a mythic item that reduces light attack damage in exchange for something else (Velothi maybe?) so weaving is less important. This might be what you are looking for.

On the other hand: If by automation you can achieve the same thing as people doing that manually with high skill you can as well just remove it.

I am no elite player and just scrap on dps that allows me to do some advanced content but by no means any end trifecta stuff but I have to say if you remove any advantage that skill and practice give to players I don't know...

I think the bar should be lowered (or as you express it: the floor lifted) for the average player but I think skill and training should still pay off for those who invest time in it.

If you are average and not ready to invest the time to train to reach trifecta-ready dps by skill (and not by automatation) you have to accept that some achievements like trifecta achievements are not for you. Anyhow with average skill and the right build you can do all content but alas no trifecta.

I have accepted it for me that most if not all trifecta achievements are not for me and I am fine with it.

I mean I also don't expect to win a gold medal or even participate in the Olympics. That is for the skilled ones who invest their life into these goals.

This is a game, the bigger the population the better. It's crazy to even think about the game requiring this amount of training it does require now to be a high dps player... weeks, even months! It's a game for crying out loud! ESO is not the olympics, ESO is entertainment.

You think it is better to keep the dps and survivability gap in place? And instead of growing the endgame community and keeping the endgame community healthy?

These gaps are terrible for the game and it's population. We should want more players in PvE endgame, more players in trials, more players in veteran content, more players in PvP, etc, etc. MMO's thrive on a healthy community, and these dps/survivability gaps are clearly a major obstacle. These gaps are mostly created by the combat system.

A small difference in power and survivability, like 5%, would be fine and unavoidable. But as it is now it is a 1000%-1500% gap in both dps and survivability between players.

For one this isn't fair, and second, this isn't fun! Not even for the players these lower end players get grouped with, as is evident from the many low dps and one-shots in PvP threads that keep popping up. It creates toxicity and hostility between players. Low dps players and constantly dying players get kicked, many players avoiding high endgame content, many players avoiding PvP, etc. This just isn't healthy for a game that needs a large community.

PS: I would never want the ceiling lowered only the floor raised, to avoid harming the endgame community. These two things are two very different things.