Pyrebrand is the single most overpowered set ever added to this game

loosej

I think it's a fun set, been trying it on a bow dk (in pvp) and it's decent enough without feeling too strong.

Triggering the max damage on a heavy attack requires 3 active dots. The pyrebrand dot counts as one, status effects don't. Just tried combining it with oblivion's foe, hoping for a "la+soul dot > ha" combo but it only eats pyrebrand + your actual skill dot, not the procced one. Balanced enough as far as I'm concerned, and cool to see some new sets be a viable option in the current chapter.

TechMaybeHic

Fighting DKs and looking for this and watching the pressure, but then all of the sudden dead. Not from Pyrebrand, but by some random NB in the back with Tarnished. Pyrebrand would appear to me to not be the MOST overpowered set ever...

Syiccal

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Fighting DKs and looking for this and watching the pressure, but then all of the sudden dead. Not from Pyrebrand, but by some random NB in the back with Tarnished. Pyrebrand would appear to me to not be the MOST overpowered set ever...

Ha yea This, no matter who I'm fighting I can always count on the tarnished heavy attacking snipe spammer from somewhere in the distance

Wuuffyy

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I can see ZOS giving this the savage ww treatment to not being able to be refreshed if the DoT is already active. People also forget how many burning ticks this set generate (basically adding another free 1k+ damage source on top of what the set already does).

Is it as overtuned as old savage ww or current relequen? I personally don't think so, but the set could use some adjustment for sure.

SW can still refresh I believe. They just gave it a melee-range only treatment and potentially a damage nerf or something similar

StaticWave wrote: »

1k ticks in a spam test. 2 seconds in b/w with a 6 second uptime in actual scenarios. These ticks on a class set aren't busted, let-alone in actual combat w/ consistent downtime (constant movement by enemies, forced target swaps, etc.)

The majority of players here are in support of this set and additionally wished the other ones were stronger. They recognize the brutality of the grind itself especially by the audience that would remotely consider complaining about this.

I actually wish this thread would go away as it's a very good, in-line ST set that offers a change-up from the standard metas. It's the only thing that makes DK wolf even remotely relevant.

Vaqual

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I can see ZOS giving this the savage ww treatment to not being able to be refreshed if the DoT is already active. People also forget how many burning ticks this set generate (basically adding another free 1k+ damage source on top of what the set already does).

Is it as overtuned as old savage ww or current relequen? I personally don't think so, but the set could use some adjustment for sure.

SW can still refresh I believe. They just gave t

StaticWave wrote: »

1k ticks in a spam test. 2 seconds in b/w with a 6 second uptime in actual scenarios. These ticks on a class set aren't busted, let-alone in actual combat w/ consistent downtime (constant movement by enemies, forced target swaps, etc.)

The majority of players here are in support of this set and additionally wished the other ones were stronger. They recognize the brutality of the grind itself especially by the audience that would remotely consider complaining about this.

I actually wish this thread would go away as it's a very good, in-line ST set that offers a change-up from the standard metas. It's the only thing that makes DK wolf even remotely relevant.

You can clearly see that the tick frequency is much higher than once per 2s.

Those are 1-1.9k ticks under battlespirit. We don't know anything about the stats of either player so there is no point in making a blanket statement about the set being strong or weak on those grounds alone.

The burst proc option exists together with the pressure in one hyper efficient set.

I think the situation is very clear.

Wuuffyy

Vaqual wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I can see ZOS giving this the savage ww treatment to not being able to be refreshed if the DoT is already active. People also forget how many burning ticks this set generate (basically adding another free 1k+ damage source on top of what the set already does).

Is it as overtuned as old savage ww or current relequen? I personally don't think so, but the set could use some adjustment for sure.

SW can still refresh I believe. They just gave t

StaticWave wrote: »

1k ticks in a spam test. 2 seconds in b/w with a 6 second uptime in actual scenarios. These ticks on a class set aren't busted, let-alone in actual combat w/ consistent downtime (constant movement by enemies, forced target swaps, etc.)

The majority of players here are in support of this set and additionally wished the other ones were stronger. They recognize the brutality of the grind itself especially by the audience that would remotely consider complaining about this.

I actually wish this thread would go away as it's a very good, in-line ST set that offers a change-up from the standard metas. It's the only thing that makes DK wolf even remotely relevant.

You can clearly see that the tick frequency is much higher than once per 2s.

Those are 1-1.9k ticks under battlespirit. We don't know anything about the stats of either player so there is no point in making a blanket statement about the set being strong or weak on those grounds alone.

The burst proc option exists together with the pressure in one hyper efficient set.

I think the situation is very clear.

"1k ticks in a spam test. 2 seconds in b/w with a 6 second uptime in actual scenarios"

In your scenario, it's a 1k tick for a cadence of 2 seconds UNLESS they are weaving perfectly and ON TARGET 100% of the time (which entails they are unlikely to be blocking).

By this logic, it's 500 damage per second or 1000 every 2 seconds EXCEPT for that scenario where they are consistently not blocking AND perfect LA weaving.

The only time you would receive a "double proc" is if you forwent damage (i.e. another 'tick' of Pyrebrand via a LA and the LA damage itself) and waited to light attack again at greater than 2 seconds...

At that point, in a dot set with which the primary focus is dealing high damage OVER TIME (6-10 seconds for a reasonable dot overshadowing that of a spammable at that point but in 6-10 seconds) would deal 2 tics of DoT (smaller than a spammable by a lot) IF, once again you were to forgo LA damage and LA damage accessories for 2 SECONDS.

///

By the way, if your argument is well... if you run it on this build then x,y,z. Right, except the majority of high functioning/less reliant sets such as essence thief, rally, tarnished (everywhere), etc. would do the same thing on a highly optimized build with far less investment in relation to gameplay (again, no block and a perfect weave requirement to pull maximum efficiency FROM A DOT set).

This is what I mean when I say hysteria. Play this in PvP.- it's strong but it's not overbearing like prior introductions such as DC/Rush/Mara's, etc. and is highly ST focused.

It's not even as universally efficient as the 10 top meta PvP sets out right now. It's downsides (positioning/gameplay requirements), including that of the random consumption of your DoTs on a fully-charged heavy mixed with the low supply (obnoxious grind) make this set a non-issue in 99% of PvP players hands AND is FAR less overbearing in that remaining 1%'s hands from Tarnished/Essence/Rally/etc right now.

^^^

The above not even considering that you are relegated to one of the "weaker" specs right now w/ all things NB and sorc absolutely DOMINATING the playing field.

Vaqual

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I can see ZOS giving this the savage ww treatment to not being able to be refreshed if the DoT is already active. People also forget how many burning ticks this set generate (basically adding another free 1k+ damage source on top of what the set already does).

Is it as overtuned as old savage ww or current relequen? I personally don't think so, but the set could use some adjustment for sure.

SW can still refresh I believe. They just gave t

StaticWave wrote: »

1k ticks in a spam test. 2 seconds in b/w with a 6 second uptime in actual scenarios. These ticks on a class set aren't busted, let-alone in actual combat w/ consistent downtime (constant movement by enemies, forced target swaps, etc.)

The majority of players here are in support of this set and additionally wished the other ones were stronger. They recognize the brutality of the grind itself especially by the audience that would remotely consider complaining about this.

I actually wish this thread would go away as it's a very good, in-line ST set that offers a change-up from the standard metas. It's the only thing that makes DK wolf even remotely relevant.

You can clearly see that the tick frequency is much higher than once per 2s.

Those are 1-1.9k ticks under battlespirit. We don't know anything about the stats of either player so there is no point in making a blanket statement about the set being strong or weak on those grounds alone.

The burst proc option exists together with the pressure in one hyper efficient set.

I think the situation is very clear.

"1k ticks in a spam test. 2 seconds in b/w with a 6 second uptime in actual scenarios"

In your scenario, it's a 1k tick for a cadence of 2 seconds UNLESS they are weaving perfectly and ON TARGET 100% of the time (which entails they are unlikely to be blocking).

By this logic, it's 500 damage per second or 1000 every 2 seconds EXCEPT for that scenario where they are consistently not blocking AND perfect LA weaving.

The only time you would receive a "double proc" is if you forwent damage (i.e. another 'tick' of Pyrebrand via a LA and the LA damage itself) and waited to light attack again at greater than 2 seconds...

At that point, in a dot set with which the primary focus is dealing high damage OVER TIME (6-10 seconds for a reasonable dot overshadowing that of a spammable at that point but in 6-10 seconds) would deal 2 tics of DoT (smaller than a spammable by a lot) IF, once again you were to forgo LA damage and LA damage accessories for 2 SECONDS.

///

By the way, if your argument is well... if you run it on this build then x,y,z. Right, except the majority of high functioning/less reliant sets such as essence thief, rally, tarnished (everywhere), etc. would do the same thing on a highly optimized build with far less investment in relation to gameplay (again, no block and a perfect weave requirement to pull maximum efficiency FROM A DOT set).

This is what I mean when I say hysteria. Play this in PvP.- it's strong but it's not overbearing like prior introductions such as DC/Rush/Mara's, etc. and is highly ST focused.

It's not even as universally efficient as the 10 top meta PvP sets out right now. It's downsides (positioning/gameplay requirements), including that of the random consumption of your DoTs on a fully-charged heavy mixed with the low supply (obnoxious grind) make this set a non-issue in 99% of PvP players hands AND is FAR less overbearing in that remaining 1%'s hands from Tarnished/Essence/Rally/etc right now.

^^^

The above not even considering that you are relegated to one of the "weaker" specs right now w/ all things NB and sorc absolutely DOMINATING the playing field.

Sorry I am a bit confused. Have you read and understood the timestamps in those screenshots? Maybe I am missing something...

Edit to clarify: On every downtime you get the chance for a double tick, still positioning this as a high end pressure set, with the constant option of going for a non-cooldown limited burst. It is just mathematically more than other sets offer. The guaranteed damage alone is competitive with other sets.

Edit 2: Ok I realize you set the bar somewhere else. I am not concerned with the average performance by average players. I measure a sets worth by its mathematical potential in the hands of an optimized player. I just can't agree with your assessment.

Wuuffyy

"Sorry I am a bit confused. Have you read and understood the timestamps in those screenshots? Maybe I am missing something...

Edit to clarify: On every downtime you get the chance for a double tick, still positioning this as a high end pressure set, with the constant option of going for a non-cooldown limited burst. It is just mathematically more than other sets offer. The guaranteed damage alone is competitive with other sets.

Yes. So you seem as if you also want to debate in good faith, I believe that's fine. I'm not entirely sure why you didn't understand my example but I also realize that, by me having to provide mathematical proof, it can make the original point less concise.

///

In a perfect world, yes, by forgoing blocking on a DK you can proc Pyrebrand every 1 second (this is intended and is part of the power efficiency of the set; this is also why the set has a natural attack cadence of 2 seconds; paralleling the efficiencies of similar sets like Savage werewolf and Relequen respectively)...

I'm going to focus on the LA proc only as I already discussed the heavy attack proc in an empathetic manner.

---

0 SECONDS- At 0 seconds (initial), I use Pyrebrand. Pyrebrand does damage (just like Savage werewolf does and Relequen does every 1 second)...

Now, typically, I can light attack again after the global basic attack cooldown- at 1 second exactly.

1 SECOND- At the 1 second mark, I have a choice....

I can deal damage with another LA continuing yet another proc of the set (intended) but also refreshing the 2 second wait for the set to deal damage again on its own.

OR, I must forgo damage of another light attack, associated enchants/potential posion procs/and, and that new instant refresh of Pyrebrand to...

2 SECONDS AND BEYOND- Wait until the 2.01 second mark on the timescale. At this point Pyrebrand will have dealt damage at the 2 second mark and I am now free to most-efficiently 'double proc' the set at the 2.01 second mark garnering '2 ticks' of a dot proc set at once

Wuuffyy

Vaqual wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I can see ZOS giving this the savage ww treatment to not being able to be refreshed if the DoT is already active. People also forget how many burning ticks this set generate (basically adding another free 1k+ damage source on top of what the set already does).

Is it as overtuned as old savage ww or current relequen? I personally don't think so, but the set could use some adjustment for sure.

SW can still refresh I believe. They just gave t

StaticWave wrote: »

1k ticks in a spam test. 2 seconds in b/w with a 6 second uptime in actual scenarios. These ticks on a class set aren't busted, let-alone in actual combat w/ consistent downtime (constant movement by enemies, forced target swaps, etc.)

The majority of players here are in support of this set and additionally wished the other ones were stronger. They recognize the brutality of the grind itself especially by the audience that would remotely consider complaining about this.

I actually wish this thread would go away as it's a very good, in-line ST set that offers a change-up from the standard metas. It's the only thing that makes DK wolf even remotely relevant.

You can clearly see that the tick frequency is much higher than once per 2s.

Those are 1-1.9k ticks under battlespirit. We don't know anything about the stats of either player so there is no point in making a blanket statement about the set being strong or weak on those grounds alone.

The burst proc option exists together with the pressure in one hyper efficient set.

I think the situation is very clear.

"1k ticks in a spam test. 2 seconds in b/w with a 6 second uptime in actual scenarios"

In your scenario, it's a 1k tick for a cadence of 2 seconds UNLESS they are weaving perfectly and ON TARGET 100% of the time (which entails they are unlikely to be blocking).

By this logic, it's 500 damage per second or 1000 every 2 seconds EXCEPT for that scenario where they are consistently not blocking AND perfect LA weaving.

The only time you would receive a "double proc" is if you forwent damage (i.e. another 'tick' of Pyrebrand via a LA and the LA damage itself) and waited to light attack again at greater than 2 seconds...

At that point, in a dot set with which the primary focus is dealing high damage OVER TIME (6-10 seconds for a reasonable dot overshadowing that of a spammable at that point but in 6-10 seconds) would deal 2 tics of DoT (smaller than a spammable by a lot) IF, once again you were to forgo LA damage and LA damage accessories for 2 SECONDS.

///

By the way, if your argument is well... if you run it on this build then x,y,z. Right, except the majority of high functioning/less reliant sets such as essence thief, rally, tarnished (everywhere), etc. would do the same thing on a highly optimized build with far less investment in relation to gameplay (again, no block and a perfect weave requirement to pull maximum efficiency FROM A DOT set).

This is what I mean when I say hysteria. Play this in PvP.- it's strong but it's not overbearing like prior introductions such as DC/Rush/Mara's, etc. and is highly ST focused.

It's not even as universally efficient as the 10 top meta PvP sets out right now. It's downsides (positioning/gameplay requirements), including that of the random consumption of your DoTs on a fully-charged heavy mixed with the low supply (obnoxious grind) make this set a non-issue in 99% of PvP players hands AND is FAR less overbearing in that remaining 1%'s hands from Tarnished/Essence/Rally/etc right now.

^^^

The above not even considering that you are relegated to one of the "weaker" specs right now w/ all things NB and sorc absolutely DOMINATING the playing field.

Sorry I am a bit confused. Have you read and understood the timestamps in those screenshots? Maybe I am missing something...

Edit to clarify: On every downtime you get the chance for a double tick, still positioning this as a high end pressure set, with the constant option of going for a non-cooldown limited burst. It is just mathematically more than other sets offer. The guaranteed damage alone is competitive with other sets.

Edit 2: Ok I realize you set the bar somewhere else. I am not concerned with the average performance by average players. I measure a sets worth by its mathematical potential in the hands of an optimized player. I just can't agree with your assessment.

I see your edits here now. So I'll say this as well:

This set is very clearly designed to be competitive in a PvE environment while also adding gameplay requirements for optimization in PvP.

Damage wise, it is purposely set to have damage similar to relequen without the 'free' 5th stat line or the 5% minor slayer buff on PvE enemies; this with a functionality of savage werewolf.

The reason the class set is stronger than standard: very strenuous grind (this alone does not merit a set to have a high average efficiency, I understand that) and as a result a low distribution as others have cited here.

Beyond this, it is part of the ensemble of 'new' class sets, particularly 'wave 2' class sets with a revamped interpretation of the efficiency class sets should have. You can see this in the following examples:

-Maximum potential damage in Corpsebuster (Necro)
-Major Vuln on a 'free' set w/ high uptime and a free super-dodge (very situational by strong never-the-less) (NB)
-Warden set being the equivalent of a strong unfathomable darkness w/ a buff attached
-Sorc set giving a whopping 15% unique damage buff in PvE

And then taking a look at the older sets

-DK set being the only set to potentially provide permanent major heroism (although trickery is still a random, but good alternative).
-NB sets making anything from that skill line hit/heal ridiculously hard
-Necro set being a unique (not pen-able), more flavorful pariah set

Though I figure that, going forward, I may not post as I feel that I have mentioned the important counter-argument points and I personally no longer want to 'bump' this thread. Please do not consider any lack of further counter argument as rude. If I see anything that hasn't been mentioned in this thread discussed, I'll be more inclined to jump back in.

Vaqual

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I can see ZOS giving this the savage ww treatment to not being able to be refreshed if the DoT is already active. People also forget how many burning ticks this set generate (basically adding another free 1k+ damage source on top of what the set already does).

Is it as overtuned as old savage ww or current relequen? I personally don't think so, but the set could use some adjustment for sure.

SW can still refresh I believe. They just gave t

StaticWave wrote: »

1k ticks in a spam test. 2 seconds in b/w with a 6 second uptime in actual scenarios. These ticks on a class set aren't busted, let-alone in actual combat w/ consistent downtime (constant movement by enemies, forced target swaps, etc.)

The majority of players here are in support of this set and additionally wished the other ones were stronger. They recognize the brutality of the grind itself especially by the audience that would remotely consider complaining about this.

I actually wish this thread would go away as it's a very good, in-line ST set that offers a change-up from the standard metas. It's the only thing that makes DK wolf even remotely relevant.

You can clearly see that the tick frequency is much higher than once per 2s.

Those are 1-1.9k ticks under battlespirit. We don't know anything about the stats of either player so there is no point in making a blanket statement about the set being strong or weak on those grounds alone.

The burst proc option exists together with the pressure in one hyper efficient set.

I think the situation is very clear.

"1k ticks in a spam test. 2 seconds in b/w with a 6 second uptime in actual scenarios"

In your scenario, it's a 1k tick for a cadence of 2 seconds UNLESS they are weaving perfectly and ON TARGET 100% of the time (which entails they are unlikely to be blocking).

By this logic, it's 500 damage per second or 1000 every 2 seconds EXCEPT for that scenario where they are consistently not blocking AND perfect LA weaving.

The only time you would receive a "double proc" is if you forwent damage (i.e. another 'tick' of Pyrebrand via a LA and the LA damage itself) and waited to light attack again at greater than 2 seconds...

At that point, in a dot set with which the primary focus is dealing high damage OVER TIME (6-10 seconds for a reasonable dot overshadowing that of a spammable at that point but in 6-10 seconds) would deal 2 tics of DoT (smaller than a spammable by a lot) IF, once again you were to forgo LA damage and LA damage accessories for 2 SECONDS.

///

By the way, if your argument is well... if you run it on this build then x,y,z. Right, except the majority of high functioning/less reliant sets such as essence thief, rally, tarnished (everywhere), etc. would do the same thing on a highly optimized build with far less investment in relation to gameplay (again, no block and a perfect weave requirement to pull maximum efficiency FROM A DOT set).

This is what I mean when I say hysteria. Play this in PvP.- it's strong but it's not overbearing like prior introductions such as DC/Rush/Mara's, etc. and is highly ST focused.

It's not even as universally efficient as the 10 top meta PvP sets out right now. It's downsides (positioning/gameplay requirements), including that of the random consumption of your DoTs on a fully-charged heavy mixed with the low supply (obnoxious grind) make this set a non-issue in 99% of PvP players hands AND is FAR less overbearing in that remaining 1%'s hands from Tarnished/Essence/Rally/etc right now.

^^^

The above not even considering that you are relegated to one of the "weaker" specs right now w/ all things NB and sorc absolutely DOMINATING the playing field.

Sorry I am a bit confused. Have you read and understood the timestamps in those screenshots? Maybe I am missing something...

Edit to clarify: On every downtime you get the chance for a double tick, still positioning this as a high end pressure set, with the constant option of going for a non-cooldown limited burst. It is just mathematically more than other sets offer. The guaranteed damage alone is competitive with other sets.

Edit 2: Ok I realize you set the bar somewhere else. I am not concerned with the average performance by average players. I measure a sets worth by its mathematical potential in the hands of an optimized player. I just can't agree with your assessment.

I see your edits here now. So I'll say this as well:

This set is very clearly designed to be competitive in a PvE environment while also adding gameplay requirements for optimization in PvP.

Damage wise, it is purposely set to have damage similar to relequen without the 'free' 5th stat line or the 5% minor slayer buff on PvE enemies; this with a functionality of savage werewolf.

The reason the class set is stronger than standard: very strenuous grind (this alone does not merit a set to have a high average efficiency, I understand that) and as a result a low distribution as others have cited here.

Beyond this, it is part of the ensemble of 'new' class sets, particularly 'wave 2' class sets with a revamped interpretation of the efficiency class sets should have. You can see this in the following examples:

-Maximum potential damage in Corpsebuster (Necro)
-Major Vuln on a 'free' set w/ high uptime and a free super-dodge (very situational by strong never-the-less) (NB)
-Warden set being the equivalent of a strong unfathomable darkness w/ a buff attached
-Sorc set giving a whopping 15% unique damage buff in PvE

And then taking a look at the older sets

-DK set being the only set to potentially provide permanent major heroism (although trickery is still a random, but good alternative).
-NB sets making anything from that skill line hit/heal ridiculously hard
-Necro set being a unique (not pen-able), more flavorful pariah set

I have made a small comparison, just to show how and in what aspects it is superior to most comparable proc damage sets. I just used tooltips from the collection and a char with arbitrary wd/sd. 2 sets are green, so I am not sure the tick is 100 % accurate, keep that in mind. Venomous is there as placeholder for comparable 10-15s dot procs. I did not value the damage/status type, since, due to limited access, this varies by build. I think the color highlights will speak for themselves, in case anything is unclear or I made a mistake let me know.

I also do not think that the sourcing of the set should be neglected when comparing power, but using that as a justification for overtuned sets doesn't change anything about the fact, that this does realistically limit the pool of competitive options (which is, in my opinion, bad for the game).

Edit: I previously showed tick damage, while I corrected the frequency for all to 1/s, except relequen, which was confusing in that case. Changed to dps.



Edit 503838: Fixed errors on image.

Wuuffyy

Vaqual wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I can see ZOS giving this the savage ww treatment to not being able to be refreshed if the DoT is already active. People also forget how many burning ticks this set generate (basically adding another free 1k+ damage source on top of what the set already does).

Is it as overtuned as old savage ww or current relequen? I personally don't think so, but the set could use some adjustment for sure.

SW can still refresh I believe. They just gave t

StaticWave wrote: »

1k ticks in a spam test. 2 seconds in b/w with a 6 second uptime in actual scenarios. These ticks on a class set aren't busted, let-alone in actual combat w/ consistent downtime (constant movement by enemies, forced target swaps, etc.)

The majority of players here are in support of this set and additionally wished the other ones were stronger. They recognize the brutality of the grind itself especially by the audience that would remotely consider complaining about this.

I actually wish this thread would go away as it's a very good, in-line ST set that offers a change-up from the standard metas. It's the only thing that makes DK wolf even remotely relevant.

You can clearly see that the tick frequency is much higher than once per 2s.

Those are 1-1.9k ticks under battlespirit. We don't know anything about the stats of either player so there is no point in making a blanket statement about the set being strong or weak on those grounds alone.

The burst proc option exists together with the pressure in one hyper efficient set.

I think the situation is very clear.

"1k ticks in a spam test. 2 seconds in b/w with a 6 second uptime in actual scenarios"

In your scenario, it's a 1k tick for a cadence of 2 seconds UNLESS they are weaving perfectly and ON TARGET 100% of the time (which entails they are unlikely to be blocking).

By this logic, it's 500 damage per second or 1000 every 2 seconds EXCEPT for that scenario where they are consistently not blocking AND perfect LA weaving.

The only time you would receive a "double proc" is if you forwent damage (i.e. another 'tick' of Pyrebrand via a LA and the LA damage itself) and waited to light attack again at greater than 2 seconds...

At that point, in a dot set with which the primary focus is dealing high damage OVER TIME (6-10 seconds for a reasonable dot overshadowing that of a spammable at that point but in 6-10 seconds) would deal 2 tics of DoT (smaller than a spammable by a lot) IF, once again you were to forgo LA damage and LA damage accessories for 2 SECONDS.

///

By the way, if your argument is well... if you run it on this build then x,y,z. Right, except the majority of high functioning/less reliant sets such as essence thief, rally, tarnished (everywhere), etc. would do the same thing on a highly optimized build with far less investment in relation to gameplay (again, no block and a perfect weave requirement to pull maximum efficiency FROM A DOT set).

This is what I mean when I say hysteria. Play this in PvP.- it's strong but it's not overbearing like prior introductions such as DC/Rush/Mara's, etc. and is highly ST focused.

It's not even as universally efficient as the 10 top meta PvP sets out right now. It's downsides (positioning/gameplay requirements), including that of the random consumption of your DoTs on a fully-charged heavy mixed with the low supply (obnoxious grind) make this set a non-issue in 99% of PvP players hands AND is FAR less overbearing in that remaining 1%'s hands from Tarnished/Essence/Rally/etc right now.

^^^

The above not even considering that you are relegated to one of the "weaker" specs right now w/ all things NB and sorc absolutely DOMINATING the playing field.

Sorry I am a bit confused. Have you read and understood the timestamps in those screenshots? Maybe I am missing something...

Edit to clarify: On every downtime you get the chance for a double tick, still positioning this as a high end pressure set, with the constant option of going for a non-cooldown limited burst. It is just mathematically more than other sets offer. The guaranteed damage alone is competitive with other sets.

Edit 2: Ok I realize you set the bar somewhere else. I am not concerned with the average performance by average players. I measure a sets worth by its mathematical potential in the hands of an optimized player. I just can't agree with your assessment.

I see your edits here now. So I'll say this as well:

This set is very clearly designed to be competitive in a PvE environment while also adding gameplay requirements for optimization in PvP.

Damage wise, it is purposely set to have damage similar to relequen without the 'free' 5th stat line or the 5% minor slayer buff on PvE enemies; this with a functionality of savage werewolf.

The reason the class set is stronger than standard: very strenuous grind (this alone does not merit a set to have a high average efficiency, I understand that) and as a result a low distribution as others have cited here.

Beyond this, it is part of the ensemble of 'new' class sets, particularly 'wave 2' class sets with a revamped interpretation of the efficiency class sets should have. You can see this in the following examples:

-Maximum potential damage in Corpsebuster (Necro)
-Major Vuln on a 'free' set w/ high uptime and a free super-dodge (very situational by strong never-the-less) (NB)
-Warden set being the equivalent of a strong unfathomable darkness w/ a buff attached
-Sorc set giving a whopping 15% unique damage buff in PvE

And then taking a look at the older sets

-DK set being the only set to potentially provide permanent major heroism (although trickery is still a random, but good alternative).
-NB sets making anything from that skill line hit/heal ridiculously hard
-Necro set being a unique (not pen-able), more flavorful pariah set

I have made a small comparison, just to show how and in what aspects it is superior to most comparable proc damage sets. I just used tooltips from the collection and a char with arbitrary wd/sd. 2 sets are green, so I am not sure the tick is 100 % accurate, keep that in mind. Venomous is there as placeholder for comparable 10-15s dot procs. I did not value the damage/status type, since, due to limited access, this varies by build. I think the color highlights will speak for themselves, in case anything is unclear or I made a mistake let me know.

I also do not think that the sourcing of the set should be neglected when comparing power, but using that as a justification for overtuned sets doesn't change anything about the fact, that this does realistically limit the pool of competitive options (which is, in my opinion, bad for the game).



Fixed errors on image.

So really quick. I never denied this was a strong set. You can quickly control+F my discussion posts and understand that I never mentioned that it wasn't* highly competitive. Also, it's disingenuous to place the rate at .5 seconds while mentioning rele is a flat '1 second even for demonstration purposes (proc rate of status effects matter for dot sets, especially after the buff to status effects that aren't fire, bleed, or poison (all nerfed, etc.)

Take a look at your examples (and I understand that you mentioned Venomous smite is a throw-in BUT it is actually one of THE STRONGEST free DOT sets in the game i.e. apply and forget):

-Venomous over an average is weak but if you can melt in those 10 seconds, it is comparative to rele w/ the ability to crit, providing crit, and being universal class-wise and buyable (as opposed to a set relegated to a class without crit through a set that doesn't provide crit ie pyrebrand).

-Way of the fire is quite literally 'pop a weapon skill w/ a dot' on and fire-and-forget

-Savage werewolf is a perfect example of what happens when ZOS gets ahold of something. This set is incredibly weak stacked against anything relevant (more on that in a moment).

-Relequen heavy investment, pure PvE focus. Has the ability to have '4' additional set bonuses as opposed to the standard 4. In PvE, just the 5% alone can be make or break for top-tier DDs. This is also universally sourced and applicable. More time-on-target directly equates to more damage.

Pyrebrand- heavy attack is relatively weak and is a gimmick without either the execute and/or the random consumption of dots (pair this with another set like rele and this could mean.... consumption of the other dot set, poisons, etc; I have tested to confirm the latter; this I assume is part of the 'problem' it poses you speak of... combination with other similar sets).

///

This set is great, as we have both mentioned. It has its own conditions and quirks and, when paired w/ Rele in PvE, is enough to pull a nice parse (competitive yet high-ST focus) that is reminiscent of high-end class specs while not surpassing them. It has instances where it can be strong but is not the strongest and, in PvP; does not hold a candle to:

Rallying cry- 25% crit damage reduction+300 wep/spell (free)
Essence thief- 10% damage (or the equiv of buffed 900 wep+spell) and the equiv of 800-900 stam recov+health (collect an orb; annoying but still free)
Tarnished nightmare ('free' consistent proc that hits like a spammable w/ status effect addition and associated minor breach and 100 wep and spell)
Daedric Trickey- Major Heroism (for DK)+ potential for major vitality+mending (all at the same time; random ofc)
Scavenging Maw (highest single burst proc in the game with little to no investment) with its additional perma minor-vuln.
Cindermoth (Straight proc-buffing damage status) w/ its guaranteed burning proc in an AoE

We are comparing other sets to Pyrebrand and calling Pyrebrand OP while skipping on what/when these other sets are doing well and what they do in their optimized position.

Again, I definitely stand by the fact that because of the class it's on and the set 'wind-up', the 'crit' argument is a bit on the weaker side when the set is not providing crit and its cordoned to a class w/ no crit passives.

If a DK wants to wear this in PvP especially, they must go through an absurd, RNG-filled grind (for proper pieces; for optimization) and then for proper-optimization, they MUST also consistently NOT block (DK's bread and butter) and PERFECT weave.

You make some great points in my opinion though, as you've said, we will have to agree to disagree here.

I personally believe that other class sets need to be brought closer to Pyrebrand's level and MANY, MANY other sets brought up in general to be appealing and competitive to other sets. This, and what I have mentioned is why, if it were a problem- it shouldn't remotely be a priority.

Regardless, for your sake- here are a few ways to nerf it without destroying it (and keeping it relevant at the same time; again, I don't agree with any nerf for the reasons I've discussed, but...)-

-melee only
-no ability to crit
-change tick frequency to 1 second and remove ability to refresh (increases ease of use, prevents 'double proc' potential)

*edited some minor spelling issues (there are probably more lol)

Wuuffyy

Also, for comparison (damage and damage utlity)... Scavenging maw is a no-effort, burst set w/ a free debuff that is once-again universally applicable (poison inject)

Vaqual

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Also, for comparison... Scavenging maw is a no-effort, burst set w/ a free debuff that is once-again universally applicable (poison inject)

Thanks for the responses. I don't want to go too deep into the discussion about some of the sets you mentioned, as the comparison of value between structurally different sets gets really complex and build specific. I can however easily agree that Tarnished and Rallying are doing too much in their current state. Scavenging on the other hand offers a really big tell and can easily be denied without residual value. How much burst timing/baiting vs hybrid pressure/burst can be weighed against each other is again down to the overall build I'd say.

It is certainly not the intention to obliterate this set with nerfs. But if new sets just push existing sets (even the ones that are considered good) out of the competition, we actually lose real build diversity from releases like this. Class balancing can easily be maintained without pidgeonholing classes into specific sets.

This set is also free of any skil-line locking limitations, compared to many other class sets, allowing an integration into many builds with little to no trade-offs.

I don't view releases like this as a blessing, it is more a shift of the standard that either leads to the elimination of competitors in the long term (in this case: for the classes that can wear it) or a big wave of disappointment if a re-adjustment should happen.

Wuuffyy

Vaqual wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Also, for comparison... Scavenging maw is a no-effort, burst set w/ a free debuff that is once-again universally applicable (poison inject)

Thanks for the responses. I don't want to go too deep into the discussion about some of the sets you mentioned, as the comparison of value between structurally different sets gets really complex and build specific. I can however easily agree that Tarnished and Rallying are doing too much in their current state. Scavenging on the other hand offers a really big tell and can easily be denied without residual value. How much burst timing/baiting vs hybrid pressure/burst can be weighed against each other is again down to the overall build I'd say.

It is certainly not the intention to obliterate this set with nerfs. But if new sets just push existing sets (even the ones that are considered good) out of the competition, we actually lose real build diversity from releases like this. Class balancing can easily be maintained without pidgeonholing classes into specific sets.

This set is also free of any skil-line locking limitations, compared to many other class sets, allowing an integration into many builds with little to no trade-offs.

I don't view releases like this as a blessing, it is more a shift of the standard that either leads to the elimination of competitors in the long term (in this case: for the classes that can wear it) or a big wave of disappointment if a re-adjustment should happen.

A lot of respect for the way you handled this discussion! Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive!

MarioMario

Vaqual wrote: »

Edit 503838: Fixed errors on image.

I believe that any reasonable person can understand, based on this data, how powerful the pyreburst is.

I’m not someone who strongly supports nerfing, but the problem here is that this set is giving a specific class a big advantage in 1v1.

If you argue otherwise, it's only because you're having fun with your buffed DK

Wuuffyy

MarioMario wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

Edit 503838: Fixed errors on image.

I believe that any reasonable person can understand, based on this data, how powerful the pyreburst is.

I’m not someone who strongly supports nerfing, but the problem here is that this set is giving a specific class a big advantage in 1v1.

If you argue otherwise, it's only because you're having fun with your buffed DK

Well, fun is the point of the game. Fun to me is doing decent DoT w/ all DoTs combined and burning people at the same time on a wolf. I play Xbox NA and I am currently not seeing this set anywhere besides on my wolf; my ticks are about 1- 1.5k (irregular resistance) in PvP. It's strong, but as we have stated multiple sets exists in the above-standard-efficiency platform (class sets not withstanding).

The low distribution is keeping this set in check; if sorc and blade are ever nerfed AND people do the toxic farm to get their optimized pieces- this WILL need to be examined. Until then, fun is fine imo.

Keep in mind, the animation for this set's proc is the same as burning embers (I believe) too so always check recaps if you believe it to be Pyrebrand. If you show your own resists with this in a clip and can consistently provide 'higher mit' (ie not base resistance, haha!) clips of being 'shredded' then you'd be right.

I'm not seeing anything more than clickbait titles and 'YT' build (OMG this is OP) posts. And then, a person letting someone dummy parse on them w/ LA spam and also only pulling 1k ticks as well.

Theist_VII

People seem to so quickly forget just how oppressive a block-casting Dragonknight is with proc sets that work while blocking.

I know it seems like forever but have we forgotten what Master’s Dual Wield used to feel like when it didn’t scale off w/s damage when fighting the class?

Now there’s a set that actively encourages Dragonknight, the main source of the perma-block problem, to have to stop blocking and people have an issue with it? 😂

Wuuffyy

Theist_VII wrote: »

People seem to so quickly forget just how oppressive a block-casting Dragonknight is with proc sets that work while blocking.

I know it seems like forever but have we forgotten what Master’s Dual Wield used to feel like when it didn’t scale off w/s damage when fighting the class?

Now there’s a set that actively encourages Dragonknight, the main source of the perma-block problem, to have to stop blocking and people have an issue with it? 😂

Beyond that, I literally have not seen another soul w/ this set; and if I had and didn't notice, it certainly wasn't oppressive. I was just attacking a guard in cyro as a normal DK w/ 6k wep+spell and hit for half my LA damage with a tick lol. OP ahhhhhhhhhh (it only ticks 4 times in 6 seconds)

Twohothardware

Theist_VII wrote: »

People seem to so quickly forget just how oppressive a block-casting Dragonknight is with proc sets that work while blocking.

I know it seems like forever but have we forgotten what Master’s Dual Wield used to feel like when it didn’t scale off w/s damage when fighting the class?

Now there’s a set that actively encourages Dragonknight, the main source of the perma-block problem, to have to stop blocking and people have an issue with it? 😂

Sorc's being able to face tank without blocking thanks to the healing added to Hardened Ward is a much bigger problem than DK's permablocking with this set.

Aurielle

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

People seem to so quickly forget just how oppressive a block-casting Dragonknight is with proc sets that work while blocking.

I know it seems like forever but have we forgotten what Master’s Dual Wield used to feel like when it didn’t scale off w/s damage when fighting the class?

Now there’s a set that actively encourages Dragonknight, the main source of the perma-block problem, to have to stop blocking and people have an issue with it? 😂

Beyond that, I literally have not seen another soul w/ this set; and if I had and didn't notice, it certainly wasn't oppressive. I was just attacking a guard in cyro as a normal DK w/ 6k wep+spell and hit for half my LA damage with a tick lol. OP ahhhhhhhhhh (it only ticks 4 times in 6 seconds)

According to my kill counter, I’ve died to Pyrebrand exactly once since its release. Anyway, looks like OP got what they wanted. *shrug* The set was far from overpowered — it was just an alternative to the other standard melee DK loadouts. Mind boggling that this set, of all sets, is getting nerfed faster than Tarnished Nightmare.

Blackbird_V

Aurielle wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

People seem to so quickly forget just how oppressive a block-casting Dragonknight is with proc sets that work while blocking.

I know it seems like forever but have we forgotten what Master’s Dual Wield used to feel like when it didn’t scale off w/s damage when fighting the class?

Now there’s a set that actively encourages Dragonknight, the main source of the perma-block problem, to have to stop blocking and people have an issue with it? 😂

Beyond that, I literally have not seen another soul w/ this set; and if I had and didn't notice, it certainly wasn't oppressive. I was just attacking a guard in cyro as a normal DK w/ 6k wep+spell and hit for half my LA damage with a tick lol. OP ahhhhhhhhhh (it only ticks 4 times in 6 seconds)

According to my kill counter, I’ve died to Pyrebrand exactly once since its release. Anyway, looks like OP got what they wanted. *shrug* The set was far from overpowered — it was just an alternative to the other standard melee DK loadouts. Mind boggling that this set, of all sets, is getting nerfed faster than Tarnished Nightmare.

Wonder when they'll "fix" Relequen so it can't proc twice - once by the timed dot and again by light attacks proccing it.

I do agree it's rather weird it's being nerfed this hard. The only reason I am playing my DK again and farmed the set is because this set for PvE. It's fun and strong. There are many other things that need the nerfhammer. I do not think this set needed it, or at least as of right now.

Tcholl

Congratulations, this post contributed to kill another viable set option in this game. Maybe, one day your appetite to destroy ESO will be satiated and we might have peace to play by then. Pyrebrand hasn't even been out that long to generate this trouble and here you all are. I play PvP everyday and have not seen this set on any death recaps in cyro. Not even once.

Maybe, for this kind of player, the real end game is to complain in the forum and the achievements are related to ruin other players farmed gear.

Also, what really have to be nerfed does not get the correct treatment, because the real feedback gets lost on all this noise.

Let's nerf pyrebrand, cloak now and on to sorcs next. Who know where this special treatment will be used next, maybe your preferred class or skill is about to be hammered.

I still see some of this ppl complaining about no class identity. Very amusing.

MEBengalsFan2001

Game continues its forever road of imbalance gear, class, and skills that results in players abusing them and others complaining about them and players leaving due to ongoing issues/bugs that are ignored. ESO needs full reboot.

Tcholl

Theist_VII wrote: »

People seem to so quickly forget just how oppressive a block-casting Dragonknight is with proc sets that work while blocking.

I know it seems like forever but have we forgotten what Master’s Dual Wield used to feel like when it didn’t scale off w/s damage when fighting the class?

Now there’s a set that actively encourages Dragonknight, the main source of the perma-block problem, to have to stop blocking and people have an issue with it? 😂

Stop. This is not even funny anymore. You are stuck in the past. DKs are not on the same tier as Sorcs and NBs for about 2 years now.

Please, quit this non sense. It is just pure hate towards a class at this point.

Vaqual

1) Players pointing out balancing flaws are not responsible for the changes ZOS decides to implement.

2) Clear reasoning has been given as to why changes were considered necessary. "Overpowered" and "dead" are not the only two states of balancing.

3) Saying "hate" is the motivation, when the actual motivations have been stated, is presumptuous.

Theist_VII

Tcholl wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

People seem to so quickly forget just how oppressive a block-casting Dragonknight is with proc sets that work while blocking.

I know it seems like forever but have we forgotten what Master’s Dual Wield used to feel like when it didn’t scale off w/s damage when fighting the class?

Now there’s a set that actively encourages Dragonknight, the main source of the perma-block problem, to have to stop blocking and people have an issue with it? 😂

Stop. This is not even funny anymore. You are stuck in the past. DKs are not on the same tier as Sorcs and NBs for about 2 years now.

Please, quit this non sense. It is just pure hate towards a class at this point.

What are you talking about?

I was in favor of keeping the set how it is. Dragonknights are still a menace, they just suck against wards, and the strongest skill in the game currently is Hardened Ward.

That is why you never see them any more, but the second this patch hits live, if Hardened Ward feels more balanced, they will be all over the place.

Tcholl

You favor keeping the set, which won't happen anyway, but with a narrative that is not true. Again, DKs are not close to Sorcs and NBs right now and you can make a case about Warden being in a better place too. I respect if you have a different opinion and don't want to deviate from the Pyrebrand subject any further.

Also, the nerf to the Hardened Ward burst heal will not balance it at all. This is not my opinion but from most players in the ward thread, including many experienced Sorcs. So, by your theory, DKs will continue at bay.

I am not asking for any buffs, just to keep a set as it, since it has just been released and maybe kindly stop this opressive DK narrative, which has become old by now.

Lalothen

Tcholl wrote: »

Congratulations, this post contributed to kill another viable set option in this game. Maybe, one day your appetite to destroy ESO will be satiated and we might have peace to play by then. Pyrebrand hasn't even been out that long to generate this trouble and here you all are. I play PvP everyday and have not seen this set on any death recaps in cyro. Not even once.

Well if ZOS had actually bothered to listen and tweak Pyrebrand during the five week PTS period as I and others suggested, it would've remained a strong-but-not-stupid set when it hit live, and people wouldn't have been complaining about the fact that it is blatantly OP. Instead they decided to keep it OP for promotional purposes, and are now taking their usual "sledgehammer to crack a walnut" approach.

It has gotten to the point where I've just deleted the PTS because ZOS almost never listen or make logical tweaks during the actual PTS period. So sod it, I'm not being a free tester for them any more if they're just going to stupidly charge on and then overreact later down the line. It's an absolutely ridiculous way to go about it, and just pisses players off at every stage.

Aurielle

Lalothen wrote: »

It has gotten to the point where I've just deleted the PTS because ZOS almost never listen or make logical tweaks during the actual PTS period. So sod it, I'm not being a free tester for them any more if they're just going to stupidly charge on and then overreact later down the line. It's an absolutely ridiculous way to go about it, and just pisses players off at every stage.

Yeah, same. I reinstalled it to test the NB cloak changes, and then promptly uninstalled again after I’d made my videos. I’ve long been of the opinion that offering feedback on PTS-related stuff really achieves very little. And by “long,” I mean “long.” I was here for beta testing in 2014. So many of our suggestions were ignored, and the game suffered so much at launch because of it. The pattern has repeated itself over and over again over the last ten years, and I doubt it’ll change anytime soon.

Spin

Tcholl wrote: »

Congratulations, this post contributed to kill another viable set option in this game. Maybe, one day your appetite to destroy ESO will be satiated and we might have peace to play by then. Pyrebrand hasn't even been out that long to generate this trouble and here you all are. I play PvP everyday and have not seen this set on any death recaps in cyro. Not even once.

The set will still be strong after the nerfs. I didnt even had time to use it, but considering that Saint and Seducer exists (which is pretty much 2x good 5-piece sets into a single piece) and that Acuity, BSW and other stuff are avaliable, it wont hurt much. You'll have to cycle between skills like before instead of just dropping 2 dots and far-away light-attack spamming.

It'll be yet another great option. Hell I feel like the set didnt live long enough to be a pandemic nuisance, which is good.