remove rush of agony from game

Tommy_The_Gun

Push / pull CC in general is broken in ESO. Game simply can't handle it properly. So having scribing skills & sets that have that type of CC is only making things worse. But the absolute cherry on top of the pile of goo is the fact that Rush of Agony does not apply CC immunity after you get pulled. ZOS is breaking their own rules here. It is incoherent and in case of rush of agony - broken as if you apply 2nd CC, players who are pulled are double CC-ed and very often can't break free. This is why I have said that push/pull CC should not even be a thing at all in ESO. Because (again) - game can not handle this type of stuff and often bugs out with a CC that player is unable to break free from. And with Rush of Agony - it is almost guaranteed to happen at some point as this set does not provide CC immunity after pull.

Also, proc sets with delayed burst and/or very bad telegraph are another can of worms & it deserves its own thread (sets should not be doing damage for you, sets should not be a carry, sets should not be better than skills/ults etc).

Joy_Division

ForumSavant wrote: »

I've read most of the comments here and it seems like there is a fundamental misunderstanding.

There is both an audio and visual que for RoA, with that being said, if you use the que and try to react to it, with the unreliability of performance, there is little chance you can reactionarily block it if you choose to block as soon as you see the animation. But, that isn't the point. You should be blocking when you see the person who has RoA gap closing, even before seeing or hearing the animation. If you choose not to, and die to it, or get pulled, that is 100% on you.

In response to what some others have said, even if you choose to remove RoA from the set list, organized groups will always farm pugs, they are organized, have skills and sets that make them optimized, and are also generally better than the average player on top of that. Add all of that together and you will usually get the same outcome. Regular cyro players will still die even after RoA is removed, and then these players cannot use the set themselves when it does well to disrupt those groups you are angered about to begin with.

The delay on RoA and convergence are the same. Conversance is unique in that you don't have to commit yourself to the damage point and can do it from safety a lot of the time, RoA is unique in that it doesn't apply CC immunity. If you remove it from the game, just like if you removed Plaguebreak, VD, or any other sets that groups use, it would probably benefit the organized groups more than the pugs who attempt to hit them with it.

It's not a misunderstanding. The set is trash, breaks ZOS's own fundamental mechanics, not fun to play against, is a crutch for groups who can't organize their position or timing, and is very unfriendly to newer players who might want to try out PvP.

Cyrodiil is an unfriendly experience to non-regulars because of sets like this and the justifications behind it. I don't nearly get as much enjoyment out of ESO as I used to do and thus I don't play it nearly as often as I once did. But I still do play. Whatever the audio or visual cue there is for this set, I do not know what it is or how it is different from other pulls in the game. I honestly don't. When I get pulled I do hear and see a chain, but both of these look and sound very much like the Dragonknight chains abilities. These cues accompany the actual act of being pulled as opposed to a warning before, so for all I know I am getting pulled by chains and not RoA. But I will get pulled far far beyond the 22 meter range of DK chains and most certainly the 12 meter range listed on RoA. So, I am left to wonder exactly how ZOS changed this set by adding the delay: my guess is that the 12 meters actually triggers after the player firing the skill moves rather than where the skill was actually used (which is utter horesehit and actually allows the activating player to pull players from much further away). I could be wrong. I don;t care. I don't. I'll go play something else, and leave the tiny Cyodiil community of 300 players who log in every night to do there thing and have fun with RoA as people yoinked from 40 meters away only to then get CC again by fear and wiped out in a milisecond by mass PboA attacks. That is about a unenjoyable of a video-game experience there could be. It induces such a feeling of helplessness that is going to drive away the vast majority of people looking to get into PvP, which is why it's the same 300 players every night.

Whatever the cue is, it is certainly much less conspicuous than Dark Convergence, which puts a big ass purple blob you can;t possibly miss on the ground before anything bad happens. And since RoA is basically an insta-death, the cue needs to be just as obvious, one that overrides all the other messaging the game is delivering to me because nothing else in the game is going to insta-kill me.

When I am on my (slow) Templar, because I cannot distinguish the RoA telegraphs, I do hold block when any organized group starts their push. Yep, I hold block. And yep, I don;t get pulled. But because I am holding block, I am immobile, and soon find myself in the middle of the organized group spamming their Whirlwinds, Shalks, Dawnbreakers, and die any way. Sometimes I say "***, I got to get out of here" which requires releasing block in order to move away from them. Now they'll just single target chain you in, or, if you try to get tricky and dodge roll, they will kill you because they're spamming AoEs. The L2P lesson was do not log onto your templar. Instead log on the sorcerer, one of the dev's pet classes, that way you can hold block and press a skill that gets you far enough away. Or play a different game.

What it comes down to is that before RoA, ball groups were incredibly annoying but also fairly easy not to get sucked into their AoE zone of death. They had to actually coordinate timing and position, and couldn't do a damn thing to impede player mobility from players looking to get away from them aside from skills such as talons that respected CC/immobilize immunity. The best way was either through them or to the side, and it was possible to be really close to the organized group (i.e., be able to damage them, fight back against them) before you had to move away from their bomb. It wasn't that hard. Now, because of RoA and other mass pull effects, the zone of death from organized groups have expanded greatly in that without any timing or position, one player in the group can suck in players to a single point. You cant get anywhere near them like the old days, if you try to go through them or to the side, you'll just get sucked in. It is far easier for organized groups to get players into their kill zones and more difficult for PuGs to get away from them. That's ass backwards. Organized groups didn't need any help as the balance was already skewed far in their favor.

As for who would benefit if RoA was removed from the game, it must be a joke that it would benefit the organized groups more. It's not like Cyrodiil is just full of PuGs who use this set and are really making the lives of organized groups miserable. The only threat RoA poses to an organized group is another organized group who used RoA. Not a single PuG would shed a tear if RoA was nerfed into uselessness.

YandereGirlfriend

divnyi wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

There's a sound, then an undodgeable orange chain

Actually why should any pull be undodgeable? Any good reason?
This game hates dodge rolls and invented so many punishes that it's just unreal.

Dodge-rolling is the most effective form of mitigation in the game.

And if you have time to recognize the chain animation and attempt to Dodge-roll then you certainly have time to toss up Block instead. Problem solved.

xylena_lazarow

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

And if you have time to recognize the chain animation and attempt to Dodge-roll then you certainly have time to toss up Block instead. Problem solved.

There will often be organized or semi-organized groups with RoA inside zergs that already outnumber you. Nobody is dying to RoA in isolation, it's RoA into multiple unblockable stun casts into a 2nd pull that obligates:

1) stay outside gap closer range and do not engage

2) immovable pots up for engaging to counter bomb

There's no "just block" in the zerg scenario. You get fear stunned and VD'd if you "just block" against the RoA zerg, you need to be watching their movements and already out of the way, because you can't even roll dodge it. High impact and low effort, yet it demands high skill narrow counterplay to beat what isn't a group's skill, it's just a proc set playing for them.

Necrotech_Master

reazea wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

What if I told you that Nibenays has twice as long of cool down? What if I told you

reazea wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

Nibenay set does nothing to counter Rush of Agony set. The ball group simply puts down too much dps too fast right where the pull stacks players for Nibenay to keep up with.

Even without the ball group, I believe nibenay has a double the cooldown than ROA.

Maybe ROA needs a target cool down just as long as well

I'd suggest a full 1 minute cool down for RoA, as well as adding the normal CC immunity rules to the set at the same time. Then it might be acceptable.

Still, no matter how you look at it, any free pull set that doesn't have to be aimed, doesn't cost resources, and doesn't take up a skill slot is a bad set in terms of balance and fairness. Free pull sets are just really bad game design.

1 minute would be far too long, people would just go back to using dark convergence at that point since its 25 sec cooldown

divnyi

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

There's a sound, then an undodgeable orange chain

Actually why should any pull be undodgeable? Any good reason?
This game hates dodge rolls and invented so many punishes that it's just unreal.

Dodge-rolling is the most effective form of mitigation in the game.

But it isn't. Dodge only works against non-AoE sources, and bunch of skills just ignores the dodge for some reason. That's on top of not being able to consecutively roll many times in a row, as opposed to being able to hold block for any time with no issue.

Vaqual

I think the set is horrible and I just can not relate to people who are having "fun" with it. It is such a plain and silly thing. And apart from the same couple 12 year old kids in the comment section noone thinks the "god mode bombing" videos with RoA and VD are interesting. This has the same game depth as playing tic tac toe with a 2-turn headstart.
RoA is an enabler set that makes a lot of otherwise balanced stuff an absolute pain.

Joy_Division

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

What if I told you that Nibenays has twice as long of cool down? What if I told you

reazea wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

Nibenay set does nothing to counter Rush of Agony set. The ball group simply puts down too much dps too fast right where the pull stacks players for Nibenay to keep up with.

Even without the ball group, I believe nibenay has a double the cooldown than ROA.

Maybe ROA needs a target cool down just as long as well

I'd suggest a full 1 minute cool down for RoA, as well as adding the normal CC immunity rules to the set at the same time. Then it might be acceptable.

Still, no matter how you look at it, any free pull set that doesn't have to be aimed, doesn't cost resources, and doesn't take up a skill slot is a bad set in terms of balance and fairness. Free pull sets are just really bad game design.

1 minute would be far too long, people would just go back to using dark convergence at that point since its 25 sec cooldown

No. 1 minute is far too short. Sets like that should not exist.

Auldwulfe

Honestly, if it wasn't this, it would be the next set in alphabetical order... back out one level and look at thread after thread after thread after thread of "I want this nerfed" - I am beginning to believe that a vocal portion of PVP players want bikini pillow fights for combat....

Does it suck to be hit with ROA? Yeah, I have been hit with it.. and oddly, I just finished getting it, NOT for PVP, because the constant whining about "I was hit for damage, and it didn't heal itself as part of the attack... it's too powerful" - but because I wanted to see if it could be used in PVE ... the answer is NO, it can't.... because unless you pair it with the DSA Maul AND an extremely awesome off set, and accept you will NOT get much from your undaunted passives... it is kind of mediocre.

The only way I see it being used, is as a totally bomber type build in PVP, and only if that player is going for short duration, high impact fighting... or by groups, at which point, they can do the same thing in many other ways.... I already tested, you can use a NB leap attack, and the scribed skill, by casting the scribed skill first, then leap, and maybe, something on the landing..... as the scribed skill's 2 second count does NOT inhibit other skills.... unless that was a bug.

It is such a specific build, and removing it only means that people either use the Vateshran sword and shield on one bar.... or the scribe skill, which has little warning.... and continue to do the same thing.
Take this set away, and what will happen is multiple people will take DK or Fighter guild skills... such as the pull from the Fighter's Guild that was just fixed, per the patch notes.. both of which are instants, and just pull each person in, one after another..... Oh No, watch out for the Hardened Ward Sorc with a fighter guild skill.... and then streak, etc.

In many ways, that is worse.... as then the group, using Discord, as so many do... can concentrate on that one single victim, pulling them in every second, if only one person in the group is using chains... however, we know it is more likely the group would have 4 or 5.... as then, they control who is nabbed... it isn't indiscriminately pulling NPC guards..... which ROA does....

The issue that appears to be the problem, here is organized play.... which has little to nothing to do with sets, as any group will find a way to maximize potential....

Auldwulfe

SaffronCitrusflower

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

What if I told you that Nibenays has twice as long of cool down? What if I told you

reazea wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

Nibenay set does nothing to counter Rush of Agony set. The ball group simply puts down too much dps too fast right where the pull stacks players for Nibenay to keep up with.

Even without the ball group, I believe nibenay has a double the cooldown than ROA.

Maybe ROA needs a target cool down just as long as well

I'd suggest a full 1 minute cool down for RoA, as well as adding the normal CC immunity rules to the set at the same time. Then it might be acceptable.

Still, no matter how you look at it, any free pull set that doesn't have to be aimed, doesn't cost resources, and doesn't take up a skill slot is a bad set in terms of balance and fairness. Free pull sets are just really bad game design.

1 minute would be far too long, people would just go back to using dark convergence at that point since its 25 sec cooldown

And that would be a good thing. RoA shouldn't exist in the first place, neither should Dark Convergence, but at least DC has some visual ques and can be mitigated.

Theignson

We duo in IA and we set up a 2 person "ball group" with me wearing Dc and my partner wearing RoA. Two necros. Both send out blastbones, then RoA with stampede, then DC, then 2 colossus if needed. Extremely effective for all that trash.

I confirmed that RoA does NOT give any warning audio/visual BEFORE the pull. There is no ground marking.

RoA DOES show chains going out and pulling after the 0.8 delay. But by then, in Cyrodil, its too late. You can't break free. Then you are in the "zone of death" where you get cc'ed/stunned/feared a second time and hit with damage from 12 players.

DC DOES show a visual area effect BEFORE the pull.

This is what RoA needs at the VERY LEAST. but also needs longer cool down, and cc immunity.

However, despite dozens of posts like this, ZOS doesnt understand the game experience with RoA so it seems they will never change it

Vaqual

Auldwulfe wrote: »

The issue that appears to be the problem, here is organized play.... which has little to nothing to do with sets, as any group will find a way to maximize potential....
Auldwulfe

The issues is clearly not organized play, it is that RoA is a trivially easy to trigger set that can generate nearly unmatched value frequently. Yes, other pull mechanics exist, but RoA pulls quickly in a large radius, doesn't apply CC immunity and adds free damage without locking you into SnB or costing an additional GCD.

And only because RoA is the most loaded of its kind doesn't mean that people have to be particularly fond of other AoE pulls. But at least they have some drawbacks.

zammo

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Honestly, if it wasn't this, it would be the next set in alphabetical order... back out one level and look at thread after thread after thread after thread of "I want this nerfed" - I am beginning to believe that a vocal portion of PVP players want bikini pillow fights for combat....

Does it suck to be hit with ROA? Yeah, I have been hit with it.. and oddly, I just finished getting it, NOT for PVP, because the constant whining about "I was hit for damage, and it didn't heal itself as part of the attack... it's too powerful" - but because I wanted to see if it could be used in PVE ... the answer is NO, it can't.... because unless you pair it with the DSA Maul AND an extremely awesome off set, and accept you will NOT get much from your undaunted passives... it is kind of mediocre.

The only way I see it being used, is as a totally bomber type build in PVP, and only if that player is going for short duration, high impact fighting... or by groups, at which point, they can do the same thing in many other ways.... I already tested, you can use a NB leap attack, and the scribed skill, by casting the scribed skill first, then leap, and maybe, something on the landing..... as the scribed skill's 2 second count does NOT inhibit other skills.... unless that was a bug.

It is such a specific build, and removing it only means that people either use the Vateshran sword and shield on one bar.... or the scribe skill, which has little warning.... and continue to do the same thing.
Take this set away, and what will happen is multiple people will take DK or Fighter guild skills... such as the pull from the Fighter's Guild that was just fixed, per the patch notes.. both of which are instants, and just pull each person in, one after another..... Oh No, watch out for the Hardened Ward Sorc with a fighter guild skill.... and then streak, etc.

In many ways, that is worse.... as then the group, using Discord, as so many do... can concentrate on that one single victim, pulling them in every second, if only one person in the group is using chains... however, we know it is more likely the group would have 4 or 5.... as then, they control who is nabbed... it isn't indiscriminately pulling NPC guards..... which ROA does....

The issue that appears to be the problem, here is organized play.... which has little to nothing to do with sets, as any group will find a way to maximize potential....

Auldwulfe

The issue is that the set doesn't apply CC immunity, (and there's no reason it shouldn't). Organised play simply exploits and abuses that.

Auldwulfe

zammo wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Honestly, if it wasn't this, it would be the next set in alphabetical order... back out one level and look at thread after thread after thread after thread of "I want this nerfed" - I am beginning to believe that a vocal portion of PVP players want bikini pillow fights for combat....

Does it suck to be hit with ROA? Yeah, I have been hit with it.. and oddly, I just finished getting it, NOT for PVP, because the constant whining about "I was hit for damage, and it didn't heal itself as part of the attack... it's too powerful" - but because I wanted to see if it could be used in PVE ... the answer is NO, it can't.... because unless you pair it with the DSA Maul AND an extremely awesome off set, and accept you will NOT get much from your undaunted passives... it is kind of mediocre.

The only way I see it being used, is as a totally bomber type build in PVP, and only if that player is going for short duration, high impact fighting... or by groups, at which point, they can do the same thing in many other ways.... I already tested, you can use a NB leap attack, and the scribed skill, by casting the scribed skill first, then leap, and maybe, something on the landing..... as the scribed skill's 2 second count does NOT inhibit other skills.... unless that was a bug.

It is such a specific build, and removing it only means that people either use the Vateshran sword and shield on one bar.... or the scribe skill, which has little warning.... and continue to do the same thing.
Take this set away, and what will happen is multiple people will take DK or Fighter guild skills... such as the pull from the Fighter's Guild that was just fixed, per the patch notes.. both of which are instants, and just pull each person in, one after another..... Oh No, watch out for the Hardened Ward Sorc with a fighter guild skill.... and then streak, etc.

In many ways, that is worse.... as then the group, using Discord, as so many do... can concentrate on that one single victim, pulling them in every second, if only one person in the group is using chains... however, we know it is more likely the group would have 4 or 5.... as then, they control who is nabbed... it isn't indiscriminately pulling NPC guards..... which ROA does....

The issue that appears to be the problem, here is organized play.... which has little to nothing to do with sets, as any group will find a way to maximize potential....

Auldwulfe

The issue is that the set doesn't apply CC immunity, (and there's no reason it shouldn't). Organised play simply exploits and abuses that.

And if it wasn't this... it would be multiple DK's wearing the new Pyrebrand -- there are already 3 threads begging for that nerf, along with the dozens of threads begging for more nerfs to Corrosive Armor, or Hardened Ward, and so on.... never mind the whole era of ODS (Oakensoul Derangement Syndrome), the screaming that NB's had to be nerfed... and so on.

It has become an endless cycle of begging for bikini pillow fighting to replace what is left of PVP .... most of us that used to do PVP, just really don't bother.... I've gone from 2 to 3 times a week, to just enough to get tier one.... and I can do that by repairing for an hour, or so... and since I make plenty of money for repair kits in PVE..... I run that, over and over with my PVE guild......

In addition, every nerf given here, has an effect on the PVE area, making those people dislike PVP even more.... so then comes the screaming to just end PVP ..... as it is ruining the game for the majority of people. One player even suggested that all the PVE players just cancel their subs for a month or two, and see if the PVP population could manage to support the game without them, etc.....

NONE of this is healthy for the game - another thread is posting a "poll" for Hardened Ward, where the individual posting the poll deliberately worded the choices in a way to skew the vote ....

Best scenario is to work to build up counters, and openly discuss them... and accept that ANY and EVERY possible thing will be exploited for gain, in ANY game, it is competitive, and people sit and actively work on developing exploits.... or did you miss the argument over Frozen Gate from Warden and bridges ..... if they removed the set, the ball groups will already have their next plan in motion, before you even have a chance to say "I'm glad ROA is gone"....

How many things have to go away..... and how many counters to ROA have already been taken away in previous screams for "I was beaten by another player, I need him nerfed" "2 bar is too much, all of my opponents should be limited to one skill each" "oh, noes...... a one skill build can still move..... waaaahhhhhhh" and so on.

We should be working on Constructive counter play.... as some here have noted... one, spread out a bit more, and don't bottleneck. Two, avoid ball groups .... most of them are NOT there to actually do the PVP as envisioned... they don't take keeps... I have seen them just leave the flags, and batter things down, to keep the icon for combat on the map.... that way, they lure in as many people to kill, as possible. Let them have that spot ... everytime I note a ball group, or see it in chat, I don't go to that fight..... I go take resources elsewhere.... use the population cap against the ball groups ...

Rather than constant screaming to nerf the nerf of the nerf on that nerfed item..... we should try and improve the game....

Auldwulfe

TechMaybeHic

Balancing does tend to need to keep happening. That's what improves the game

CrazyKitty

RoA and tarnished sets are sucking the fun out of Cyrodiil now days. Cyrodiil PvP just keeps getting to be less and less fun and ZOS isn't even doing the few tweaks that need to happen to make it more balanced. I don't think anyone at ZOS plays in Cyrodiil anymore.

Turtle_Bot

There is a super simple fix for RoA that doesn't take away from its power, while removing the game-breaking aspects of the set:

1. Make it grant CC immunity to targets pulled (even if its just immunity to pulls/itself)
2. Give it a pre-proc/build-up visual before it goes off, like DC which has a massive purple AoE on the ground (that also shows up as an enemy placed ground effect, expanding red zone) before it pulls.

Every single "visual" mentioned in this thread are only noticeable once its too late and the targeted projectile (chain) is already flying at you to pull you back in, which creates the common situation where the pull fails to respect LoS/Range/etc. that a lot of the complaints for this set "having no visuals" are about.

With these 2 changes:
- it ensures the set follows CC rules that everything else in this game follows
- it gives reliable counter play for skilled players
- the set is still the best set in the game at grouping up enemies (better in some ways than release dark convergence imo)
- the set still does AoE damage
- the sets cooldown is still very short for a mass AoE pull set

The set still does everything it currently does, just gives actual skill based counter play and respects the CC rules that everything else in the game has to respect.