remove rush of agony from game

divnyi

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

And because it doesn't follow cc rules you can take an immovable pot in anticipation of a pull and still get yoinked.

I don't think it works this way. It doesn't cause CC immunity but it respects existing CC immunity.

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

I don't think it works this way. It doesn't cause CC immunity but it respects existing CC immunity.

It breaks and disrespects every other rule and standardization. Class pull skills apply CC immunity, why is a free no-button proc being given more power than actual class skills that require spending resources and a gcd?

Bashev

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

I don't think it works this way. It doesn't cause CC immunity but it respects existing CC immunity.

It breaks and disrespects every other rule and standardization. Class pull skills apply CC immunity, why is a free no-button proc being given more power than actual class skills that require spending resources and a gcd?

And on top of that for the skills you have to aim. For the set you just can use a blank mobility skill

xylena_lazarow

Bashev wrote: »

And on top of that for the skills you have to aim. For the set you just can use a blank mobility skill

And it will pull players that the wielder did not engage and did not even know they'd be pulling. Quite literally playing the game for you, removing the need for a lot of the positioning and awareness involved in aoe attacks.

TechMaybeHic

You all just need to learn to see it coming from a player in stealth gap closing into a random behind you well outside the camera distance ZOS allows you to back out; all the while being saturated by particle effects going off everywhere. Just block and break free the bugged fear that also hit you before you even knew you were being relocated because the server is desync. Just learn to play, OK?

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

I don't think it works this way. It doesn't cause CC immunity but it respects existing CC immunity.

It breaks and disrespects every other rule and standardization. Class pull skills apply CC immunity, why is a free no-button proc being given more power than actual class skills that require spending resources and a gcd?

This is not my point though.
Ignoring CC immunity would be another beast entirely.

ForumSavant

I've read most of the comments here and it seems like there is a fundamental misunderstanding.

There is both an audio and visual que for RoA, with that being said, if you use the que and try to react to it, with the unreliability of performance, there is little chance you can reactionarily block it if you choose to block as soon as you see the animation. But, that isn't the point. You should be blocking when you see the person who has RoA gap closing, even before seeing or hearing the animation. If you choose not to, and die to it, or get pulled, that is 100% on you.

In response to what some others have said, even if you choose to remove RoA from the set list, organized groups will always farm pugs, they are organized, have skills and sets that make them optimized, and are also generally better than the average player on top of that. Add all of that together and you will usually get the same outcome. Regular cyro players will still die even after RoA is removed, and then these players cannot use the set themselves when it does well to disrupt those groups you are angered about to begin with.

The delay on RoA and convergence are the same. Conversance is unique in that you don't have to commit yourself to the damage point and can do it from safety a lot of the time, RoA is unique in that it doesn't apply CC immunity. If you remove it from the game, just like if you removed Plaguebreak, VD, or any other sets that groups use, it would probably benefit the organized groups more than the pugs who attempt to hit them with it.

xylena_lazarow

ForumSavant wrote: »

In response to what some others have said, even if you choose to remove RoA from the set list, organized groups will always farm pugs

It's not about nerfing organized groups, it's about cutting down all those random "haha get screwed" random instant death play patterns that simply don't need to exist, like you said it ultimately won't change the big picture.

There's no comparing RoA to Dcon though, can't even remember the last time I got hit by a Dcon, but random invisible pulls across the map by RoA procs are a frequent occurrence in every large scale battle. It doesn't make PvP better.

El_Borracho

@Auldwulfe exactly. Chains of Devastation has no visual cues yet you can block a DK chain coming your way. If you want to know what the visual cue is, watch YouTube. Oh, and you might want to pay attention to the tactics in which ROA is used with an organized group.

The funny part about this thread, the pull is not why most players use ROA. At least not the way I've played or seen it played. Being pulled by ROA is not the prerequisite for the follow-up damage, you just have to be within the 7 meters when it explodes. So even if you block the pull and sit around for the next 2 seconds, you will be hit by the damage. But it is a nice bonus for those players who want to stick around and try to get payback for the pull.

This is the same if you are a DK using a lot of skills, a sorc using streak, anyone using a 2H, a werewolf, or any of the other abilities listed under ROA. So if you see a person bust a player with Stampede, then sprint into your group instead of going after the initial target, you should get away. But since it will likely be a streak into you group...

EDIT: And if its just you and the ROA player, 1v1, the damage is not significant. If ROA is killing you, its because you were within 7 meters of several other players. To me, that sounds more and more like ball group players being upset that being in the ball group is killing them

ForumSavant

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ForumSavant wrote: »

In response to what some others have said, even if you choose to remove RoA from the set list, organized groups will always farm pugs

It's not about nerfing organized groups, it's about cutting down all those random "haha get screwed" random instant death play patterns that simply don't need to exist, like you said it ultimately won't change the big picture.

There's no comparing RoA to Dcon though, can't even remember the last time I got hit by a Dcon, but random invisible pulls across the map by RoA procs are a frequent occurrence in every large scale battle. It doesn't make PvP better.

They aren't random, they aren't invisible, you just don't know how to play against it. DC is only easier to telegraph because it's usually indicated by an AoE on the group, RoA is just as easy if not even easier to block.

Auldwulfe

One thing, unlike a number of other pulls, Rush of Agony does NOT stun or crowd control you, in any way.... it just does it's pull, and then, 2 seconds later a moderate burst of damage ... 99% of the players using it are NOT using it for damage......

They are using it to get you in melee range, so that they can use the Dragon Star Arena Maul on you.... or Dizzy Swing ,or whatever else they have to pummel you, up close.... and, they can, just as easily, use the Vateshran Sword and Shield and a quick bar swap.... or, Stampede in, and let their buddies with chains pull in people... with many of those pulls having stuns or snares on them.....

If you die because of the damage from Rush of Agony, your build is poor.... or you wanted to die, or you weren't healing or keeping your health up... that damage is only a threat if you are already down a lot......

So, simply watch for 2 handed builds... and as soon as you see yourself being pulled... hit your block...and then, get out of group --- the user is now in his cooldown period... and you know who it is...


Auldwulfe

xylena_lazarow

ForumSavant wrote: »

They aren't random, they aren't invisible, you just don't know how to play against it.

Then show what it looks like. The other person that was asked, couldn't.

One RoA bomber in isolation is easy to deal with. Ball groups are generally easy to avoid.

There's a sound, then an undodgeable orange chain, "just block" as if there aren't zergers already mashing their faces into their unblockable stun buttons. It's a "haha gotcha" for the bigger zerg that obligates prior disengagement for the smaller force, and as you said yourself, ball groups don't care about it either way, so what good does it do?

Ball groups and bombers existed before pull sets. They'll exist when pulls are righteously gutted.

Auldwulfe

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

Necrotech_Master

Auldwulfe wrote: »

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

while that would give you a dmg shield when you were pulled, it wouldnt stop you from dying to the likely multiple occult overloads/vicious death procs going off from all the other people that got pulled in

thats actually usually what ends up killing me, VD

El_Borracho

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

while that would give you a dmg shield when you were pulled, it wouldnt stop you from dying to the likely multiple occult overloads/vicious death procs going off from all the other people that got pulled in

thats actually usually what ends up killing me, VD

You could get the same pull result with Void Bash. Or a group that runs Silver Leash or DK chains. Or Charm on a Arc. If a player is constantly getting pulled into a group, its not the fault of an armor set. There are already a multitude of ways to avoid that.

ROA is hardly the game-breaking problem some claim it is. Its meant to harm players in groups. Which means it can also be used by a group to harm players. Like you said, VD is way more powerful in the group model. We don't need to get rid of that set, either.

Necrotech_Master

El_Borracho wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

while that would give you a dmg shield when you were pulled, it wouldnt stop you from dying to the likely multiple occult overloads/vicious death procs going off from all the other people that got pulled in

thats actually usually what ends up killing me, VD

You could get the same pull result with Void Bash. Or a group that runs Silver Leash or DK chains. Or Charm on a Arc. If a player is constantly getting pulled into a group, its not the fault of an armor set. There are already a multitude of ways to avoid that.

ROA is hardly the game-breaking problem some claim it is. Its meant to harm players in groups. Which means it can also be used by a group to harm players. Like you said, VD is way more powerful in the group model. We don't need to get rid of that set, either.

could make it even easier and just use the scribe aoe soul magic skill to do the pull, same results as void bash but not limited to a weapon type or even a proc cooldown, or requiring a target to use a skill on lol

VD/occult overload is the main reason people die, not from the pulls

if anything knockback is more deadly than the pulls because you can get knocked off a ledge and die from fall dmg (or into the slaughterfish waters of alessia bridge)

Tinkerhorn

My only thoughts on Rush of Agony is the commonly held opinion that it should apply CC immunity and the fact it doesn't is just bad game design. If you're getting a RoA pull it's usually into an AoE dump often with a silence and snare. Getting out of it is definitely feasible at times but getting immediately pulled back in by chains is just stupid. Epitome of unfun.
Also the 12m is too large especially with the desync going on at many times. Recently I was fighting near bleakers and was pulled from ground level all the way through the hill to the top of it into an aoe and ult dump. I didn't even have any idea people were fighting up there. It was more comical than frustrating for sure but does a great job highlighting some of ESO's many annoying facets.

TechMaybeHic

People incredibly miss the point and i am sure its not accidental. Any other pull, even ones that do not stun; grant CC immunity. That is the problem. You can be chain pulled back to back and then hit with unblockable and undodgeable CC while randoms you were not close to just blow up. NOBODY really cares about the single pull you can do once and be free of after. NOBODY cares so much about the damage of the set itself. Its the rule breaking mechanic that should have never seen the light of day and gets magnified by poor game performance

Major_Mangle

With the amount of visual clutter scribing brought to the game (and combined with what we already had), it´s borderline impossible in lots of situations to see RoA proc. And with ZOS actually buffing the set (contrary to what they should´ve done) it´s insane to me how people compare RoA to using actual chokepoints and terrain. Like bruh, are you for real?

RoA should give the affected target cc-immunity, end of topic.

Theignson

El_Borracho wrote: »

@Auldwulfe exactly. Chains of Devastation has no visual cues yet you can block a DK chain coming your way. If you want to know what the visual cue is, watch YouTube. Oh, and you might want to pay attention to the tactics in which ROA is used with an organized group.

The funny part about this thread, the pull is not why most players use ROA. At least not the way I've played or seen it played. Being pulled by ROA is not the prerequisite for the follow-up damage, you just have to be within the 7 meters when it explodes. So even if you block the pull and sit around for the next 2 seconds, you will be hit by the damage. But it is a nice bonus for those players who want to stick around and try to get payback for the pull.

This is the same if you are a DK using a lot of skills, a sorc using streak, anyone using a 2H, a werewolf, or any of the other abilities listed under ROA. So if you see a person bust a player with Stampede, then sprint into your group instead of going after the initial target, you should get away. But since it will likely be a streak into you group...
Second post:
You could get the same pull result with Void Bash. Or a group that runs Silver Leash or DK chains. Or Charm on a Arc. If a player is constantly getting pulled into a group, its not the fault of an armor set. There are already a multitude of ways to avoid that.

ROA is hardly the game-breaking problem some claim it is. Its meant to harm players in groups.

You must be playing a different game (eg BG or no cp) , or else you are not playing solo at the same time as ball groups.

1) the pull is the ONLY reason ball groups use RoA. It pulls 12m and does not apply CC immunity. Some of them use it twice in a row. RoA damage is trivial

2) DK chains, silver chains that you mention are not at all comparable to RoA. They are single target pulls. RoA pulls everyone within 12m from where the stampede ends

3) The Ball group damage has nothing to do with RoA. They stun/fear you right as you are pulled in and then land ~12 players Northern winds, whirling blades, Vicious death, Shalks, Dawnbreaker etc etc.

4) Nibenay does nothing agains an ulti dump of ~100k

5) "Just avoid the ball groups" . Yes indeed, 90% of the time I do, but the issue is with the lag, if I get within 15m of them, I can be pulled. As others mentioned, sometime you get pulled from much farther . Once you are pulled by a ball group it is insta death due to the factors mentioned enough.

Ok, I get it, there are always people defending sets for various reasons. The deficiencies of RoA have been made clear 100 times and ZOS just doesn't understand it. Enough said.

Navaac223

I know RoA should give cc immunity like every other pull but hear me out : bombers deal more damage if there are a lot of people. They can't kill a decent solo player. Therefore the secret to countering this set and all others like it is : don't be a zergling.
I get that it gives more power to ball groups but it's also a really good way to counter zergs. If we delete bombers, what do we have left ? Zergs, 50k hp bots, gankers and sometimes an old player who tries to have fun. Like it or not, RoA and dark convergence are the things that keep cyrodiil from being unbearably boring

Bashev

Navaac223 wrote: »

I know RoA should give cc immunity like every other pull but hear me out : bombers deal more damage if there are a lot of people. They can't kill a decent solo player. Therefore the secret to countering this set and all others like it is : don't be a zergling.
I get that it gives more power to ball groups but it's also a really good way to counter zergs. If we delete bombers, what do we have left ? Zergs, 50k hp bots, gankers and sometimes an old player who tries to have fun. Like it or not, RoA and dark convergence are the things that keep cyrodiil from being unbearably boring

So you have fun from the suffer of other people.

Ball groups take care for Zergs we do not need bombers to take care for the zergs too. A bomber does not take care to the ball groups anyway.

Navaac223

Bashev wrote: »

Navaac223 wrote: »

I know RoA should give cc immunity like every other pull but hear me out : bombers deal more damage if there are a lot of people. They can't kill a decent solo player. Therefore the secret to countering this set and all others like it is : don't be a zergling.
I get that it gives more power to ball groups but it's also a really good way to counter zergs. If we delete bombers, what do we have left ? Zergs, 50k hp bots, gankers and sometimes an old player who tries to have fun. Like it or not, RoA and dark convergence are the things that keep cyrodiil from being unbearably boring

So you have fun from the suffer of other people.

Yes. Yes, I do.
As long as zergs have no problem focusing solo players while staying comfortably out of range, I will have no problem bombing pugs on a flag. I say this is justice

I do agree that bombers are just a minor annoyance for zergs while ball groups use it to completely wipe them. I don't think this is a reason to completely delete bombing by nerfing AoE pulls like RoA though, as it's the only counter to zergs (apart from a bigger zerg, but most of the time 1 or 2 factions are dominating cyro). If we just make ball groups less tanky, the problem will almost be fixed so the sooner HoT stacking gets fixed, the better.

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

There's a sound, then an undodgeable orange chain

Actually why should any pull be undodgeable? Any good reason?
This game hates dodge rolls and invented so many punishes that it's just unreal.

xylena_lazarow

Starting to see a pattern.

Arbitrary "haha gotcha" moments are fine with the crowd that doesn't wanna have to develop skill. They'll probably blame macros anyway. Those same players really hate pressure because it punishes standing still eating hits to the face, despite requiring the attacker to take a heavy risk and stick visible on the target for a full 1-2 rotations.

That's how you end up with "git gud" over the invisible pulls and ranged proc bursts, low risk one button nonsense with extremely narrow counterplay and disproportionately punishing impact, while they freak out over Azureblight and MDW, things that you can defeat relatively easily by adapting tactics to avoid hits and go aggressive to win the race.

Sets that increase sustained DPS don't play the game for you. Massive one button impact that does what is normally done through smart positioning, timing, ult combo precision... that's procs playing the game for you. None of the RoA defenders have managed to show what the telegraph looks like, nor have they been able to explain why opponents need to "git gud" but they themselves need a proc set to automate positioning and timing for them.

Necrotech_Master

from what i can tell, there isnt really a telegraph for the rush pull, there is an "animation" which is the chains coming out of you, but they have a 0.2 sec delay of firing after someone uses a gap closer, but the gap closer itself is the only real telegraph that rush might happen

usually once you see the chains, its already too late to block or do anything about it

i think rush is fine as is, but i can see the point of view that the "not applying cc immunity" to the target is the biggest gripe with it, because most times like dark convergence, you can be pulled with it, but you cant be further cc'd after unless its an immobilize, so it protects from multi-pulls, or additional stuns once you get into the middle

if they added the cc immunity part to rush like every other pull, then i think less people would complain about it, at that point it would basically be just a slightly larger radius version of the soul magic scribe skill leashing burst (8 meter aoe pull that can be used on demand as its a skill instead of a proc)

El_Borracho

@Theignson I clearly am playing a different game, because the group I run with is about 8-12 players and I use ROA exactly how I described to pretty decent success... and I am by no means a great PVPer. Because the targets are already grouped up, so they don't need to be pulled. It also depends on how big the group is. A zerg? Doesn't matter what sets they are wearing if you get pulled into the middle of the blob. I don't see how that is an ROA issue, as it a ball group issue. Which existed before ROA and will continue to exist even if you changed ROA.

You have to be within 12 meters of ROA to pull you. Which is just over half of what DK Chains and Silver Leash's range is and the exact same range as Void Bash. Which means that you have to be standing within 12 meters of the person who got hit, probably by Streak or Stampede. And in the scenario you have described, its at that point the group beats you down with other skills.

So why would it be any different than a ball group having 6 DKs, or whatever, send out 6 different chains/leashes, at almost twice the distance, to achieve the same result? If anything, that is worse. Stampede has a 22 meter range. So at the most, you could be 34 meters from the zerg when Stampede hits a player, which is 6 meters further than Chains/Leash.

But, ROA pulls you to the player wearing ROA who has to be within 12 meters of you, not into the zerg where the player originated. Whereas Chains/Leash pulls you to the group. It sounds like a sorc hitting you with Streak would be more devastating than ROA if you're getting subsumed by the by the mob. Take Flight is much worse, and would have the same effect, only 28 meters wide instead of 12. And both of those come with stuns where ROA does not.

12 meters is only 5 meters further than melee range. But people are acting like its the new Snipe. But alas, since Vateshran and Master's weapons were nerfed, we have to move on to the next set that shows up in PVP death recaps. Because its the set...

reazea

Auldwulfe wrote: »

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

Nibenay set does nothing to counter Rush of Agony set. The ball group simply puts down too much dps too fast right where the pull stacks players for Nibenay to keep up with.

TechMaybeHic

]

Even without the ball group, I believe nibenay has a double the cooldown than ROA.

Maybe ROA needs a target cool down just as long as well

reazea

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

What if I told you that Nibenays has twice as long of cool down? What if I told you

reazea wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

On a side note, if you wear the 2 piece set, Nibenay Bay Battlereeve, you negate that 5 piece set, Rush of Agony, that they are wearing..... and you can, outright, just buy that 2 piece set, no need to grind a dungeon over and over again......

That is a quick option to make the set non-useful... which means it will get used less and less.....
That is an easy fix, if it is that much of a problem.

Auldwulfe

Nibenay set does nothing to counter Rush of Agony set. The ball group simply puts down too much dps too fast right where the pull stacks players for Nibenay to keep up with.

Even without the ball group, I believe nibenay has a double the cooldown than ROA.

Maybe ROA needs a target cool down just as long as well

I'd suggest a full 1 minute cool down for RoA, as well as adding the normal CC immunity rules to the set at the same time. Then it might be acceptable.

Still, no matter how you look at it, any free pull set that doesn't have to be aimed, doesn't cost resources, and doesn't take up a skill slot is a bad set in terms of balance and fairness. Free pull sets are just really bad game design.