the tbag allowed?

ESO_player123

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

And the bolded part is the most important here. I do not care what a group of friends enjoy doing while they are playing together. Once an outsider is involved, that is a different story.

People do it outsiders to have fun and make new friends.

I'm sorry, but we have very different opinions of what fun is and what makes one want to add someone to their friend list.

spartaxoxo

ESO_player123 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ESO_player123 wrote: »

And the bolded part is the most important here. I do not care what a group of friends enjoy doing while they are playing together. Once an outsider is involved, that is a different story.

People do it outsiders to have fun and make new friends.

I'm sorry, but we have very different opinions of what fun is and what makes one want to add someone to their friend list.

I don't find it fun and would not add someone to my friends list for it. I have a young cousin that does though, albeit not in this game.

Syldras

spartaxoxo wrote: »

In general, people consider consenting to activities to be also mean consenting to normal actions within that activity. You don't generally ask permission before hitting someone with a water balloon in a water fight.

Throwing water balloons is the main aspect of a water fight, just as kicking a ball is in a soccer play. Shoving one's crotch into another player's face is not part of the objective of PvP. That some people do it and it wasn't banned for a long time because homophobic "jokes" were common back then doesn't change anything about that.

It's interesting, actually. Societal rules change over time. Only a few decades ago, often people didn't bat an eye at things that insulted minories, because minories had no voice. The majority of society didn't care for their opinion. Homophobic "jokes" were common, also racist and misogynous jokes. Same goes for slurs. Over time, people became more aware that these "jokes" and slurs are harmful, so they abandoned them. They stopped using certain words, or using certain stereotypes in entertainment. But in case of teabagging it just suddenly "doesn't mean anything homophobic anymore", so it's okay now? Who decided that? Might the people who are actually affected by homophobia have a word about it? If white people would just use ethnic slurs against non-white people again, while claiming they don't mean anything racist anymore, so it's okay, no one would just shrug and accept that.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Trash talk is generally viewed as a fairly normal part of sports.

Must be cultural differences then. Where I'm from, insulting or humiliating other players in a sports is considered unsportsmanlike, honorless and usually forbidden.

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

In general, people consider consenting to activities to be also mean consenting to normal actions within that activity. You don't generally ask permission before hitting someone with a water balloon in a water fight.

Throwing water balloons is the main aspect of a water fight, just as kicking a ball is in a soccer play. Shoving one's crotch into another player's face is not part of the objective of PvP. That some people do it and it wasn't banned for a long time because homophobic "jokes" were common back then doesn't change anything about that.

It's interesting, actually. Societal rules change over time. Only a few decades ago, often people didn't bat an eye at things that insulted minories, because minories had no voice. The majority of society didn't care for their opinion. Homophobic "jokes" were common, also racist and misogynous jokes. Same goes for slurs. Over time, people became more aware that these "jokes" and slurs are harmful, so they abandoned them. They stopped using certain words, or using certain stereotypes in entertainment. But in case of teabagging it just suddenly "doesn't mean anything homophobic anymore", so it's okay now? Who decided that? Might the people who are actually affected by homophobia have a word about it? If white people would just use ethnic slurs against non-white people again, while claiming they don't mean anything racist anymore, so it's okay, no one would just shrug and accept that.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Trash talk is generally viewed as a fairly normal part of sports.

Must be cultural differences then. Where I'm from, insulting or humiliating other players in a sports is considered unsportsmanlike, honorless and usually forbidden.

There's a reason so many PvP games include various taunting emotes. It's considered part of it. It's not the objective but it's considered part of the fun and to build friendly rivalry and encourage people to make new friends. This game is included in that. It's part of video game PvP and has been for decades.

Tea bagging does not have the same history as genuine slurs.

Syldras

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There's a reason so many PvP games include various taunting emotes. It's considered part of it. It's not the objective but it's considered part of the fun and to build friendly rivalry and encourage people to make new friends. This game is included in that. It's part of video game PvP and has been for decades.

If there's so many different taunting emotes, people could just use these instead of using one that has a homophobic origin and simulates a nonconsensual sexual act. Problem solved. It could be so easy.

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There's a reason so many PvP games include various taunting emotes. It's considered part of it. It's not the objective but it's considered part of the fun and to build friendly rivalry and encourage people to make new friends. This game is included in that. It's part of video game PvP and has been for decades.

If there's so many different taunting emotes, people could just use these instead of using one that has a homophobic origin and simulates a nonconsensual sexual act. Problem solved. It could be so easy.

Many people are not using it to mean those things and even more don't know it ever carried those connotations.

Edit: Also it started life as victory dance before people started using it over player opponents and thus gaining it that name.

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

Really, I thought society was a bit more aware by now.

Language evolves. Just because some homophobic jerks decided to do something that was already being used as an innocent victory dance over others, it doesn't mean that said victory dance can't change over time. It's a generic video game taunt now and you won't find very many people who use it that way. A lot of the people doing it are young kids who don't even know that was ever a thing.

https://www.thegamer.com/teabagging-video-games/

ESO_player123

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Really, I thought society was a bit more aware by now.

Language evolves. Just because some homophobic jerks decided to do something that was already being used as an innocent victory dance over others, it doesn't mean that said victory dance can't change over time. It's a generic video game taunt now and you won't find very many people who use it that way. A lot of the people doing it are young kids who don't even know that was ever a thing.

https://www.thegamer.com/teabagging-video-games/

Young kids often repeat things that they see other people doing/saying without knowing the meaning of it. If those things are offensive, then the kids' behavior is normally corrected by adults, not encouraged.

spartaxoxo

The difference between slurs and tea bagging is that tea bagging has spent the vast majority of it's history meaning "I'm better than you at video games." People haven't committed hate crimes while shouting that they are tea bagging. They haven't drafted legislation designed to harm others while tea bagging. In fact, tea bagging has basically not left the world of video games.

And in the world of video games it started as a harmless victory dance in single player shooters, was briefly given these connotations in multiplayer games, and then went back to being nothing more than a harmless victory dance as attitudes towards homophobic slurs in chat changed.

So, to equate the two, and brush everyone away as guilty of that behavior, is false equivalency. It's imposing your own history of seeing it used onto others who don't have the same experiences. It's not used to mean that by hardly anyone. It does not inherently mean that because it does not have remotely the same history.

Sleepsin

You can literally choose to not have this affect you.

Syldras

spartaxoxo wrote: »

In fact, tea bagging has basically not left the world of video games.

As it had been said in this thread before: While "jokes" or bad media clichés about minorities are not the same as direct attacks in the real world, they do have an influence on the real world, in this case on how minorities are seen. If there's something (stereotype, joke, fictional gesture, whatever) that equals gay with "weak", "bad" or a "disgusting", then this subtly creeps into people's brains, especially into the ones of younger, still more easily influencable people. This is nothing new, I gave examples for that, but unfortunately, those posts got deleted, because indeed these real live examples are ugly.

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

In fact, tea bagging has basically not left the world of video games.

As it had been said in this thread before: While "jokes" or bad media clichés about minorities are not the same as direct attacks in the real world, they do have an influence on the real world, in this case on how minorities are seen. If there's something (stereotype, joke, fictional gesture, whatever) that equals gay with "weak", "bad" or a "disgusting", then this subtly creeps into people's brains, especially into the ones of younger, still more easily influencable people. This is nothing new, I gave examples for that, but unfortunately, those posts got deleted, because indeed these real live examples are ugly.

The problem is that teabagging only has those connotations for people who specifically played video games during a relatively small time frame. It does not have those connotations in general. The gesture just looks like victory dancing to anyone without those contexts. Victory dancing is the origin of the gesture, although back then that was not done on another person.

It's a false equivalency that makes the assumption that everyone has the same experiences and intentions. And that's not the case. Obviously, using someone's orientation for a synonym for weak is not okay. But teabagging does not do that. It's just crouching up and down. More people are familiar with that as a dance move than they with a niche slang term from the 90s.

This is why the other nicknames for it are things like "Bad manners," and "tactical crouching" rather than further such references.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings everyone,

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