ZOS Our guild leaders are stressed by biding wars

merevie · August 19

Hi Devs,
Trading wars have been part of the game for a long time.
However, the stress and workload on guild leaders with traders has gotten to the point that it's unhealthy.
Could you please reconsider options that would help our hardest working community members?
We don't want to lose them.

DenverRalphy · August 19

Heren · August 19

I don't know, seems to me there is a lot of traders everywhere in the world.

LamiaCritter · August 19

... These are merchants in a computer game, my guy. What do these trader guilds 'work hard for' aside from making an occasional key click to say 'Yes, I bid for this trader'?

Trading guilds are useful.
But they're not exactly these 'foundational pillars vital to the existence of the game itself' that it sounds like you're implying.

"Stress" and "workload". On a mere video game shop-guild? Forgive me if I find that this beggars belief.

Dax_Draconis · August 19

valenwood_vegan · August 19

Traders really need to adjust to the current market conditions. And I mean this is coming from a formerly pretty hardcore trader in a lot of trading guilds who doesn't like what's happened with the market and has lost motivation to engage with that aspect of the game to the extent that I used to.

But, many of these guilds were quick to raise requirements and bids when times were good, but now seem reluctant to adjust to times being tough. If they're facing burnout, it may be a good time to back off, accept a cheaper spot for a while and lower requirements on their members to match, and maybe focus on some more social activities, or different aspects of trading beyond just putting up the biggest numbers or maintaining that one prime spot every week.

If the guild leaders are burned out, which I'm sure some or even many of them are... it's worth pointing out that so are their members. You can only squeeze so much blood from a stone, and many have been working twice or three times as hard to make less gold than before. It's not sustainable. I've reacted similarly to many others I know, who have cut back on the number of trading guilds they're in... starting with the ones that won't lower requirements and keep demanding more and more donations.

TL;DR: I don't see the economy going back to how it was anytime soon, and the guilds that won't adjust *are* going to burn out.

LikiLoki · August 19

Guild leaders are usually people with strong minds. They face conflicts both inside and outside the clan. There's nothing you can do about it. However, the developer could help them if he developed more tools for managing the guild, expanded the options of the guild bank, build guild houses, guild quests, unique goods with guild symbols, guild artifacts, guild currency. We need to make the guilds great again

valenwood_vegan · August 19

LikiLoki wrote: »

Guild leaders are usually people with strong minds. They face conflicts both inside and outside the clan. There's nothing you can do about it. However, the developer could help them if he developed more tools for managing the guild, expanded the options of the guild bank, build guild houses, guild quests, unique goods with guild symbols, guild artifacts, guild currency. We need to make the guilds great again

Yes this is a good point I can agree with - guilds definitely need a lot of QoL love, and along with that, more reasons to be in them beyond trading. (EDIT to be more clear - not suggesting that there are no other reasons to be in guilds, just that there should be more).

sshogrin · August 19

LamiaCritter wrote: »

... These are merchants in a computer game, my guy. What do these trader guilds 'work hard for' aside from making an occasional key click to say 'Yes, I bid for this trader'?

Trading guilds are useful.
But they're not exactly these 'foundational pillars vital to the existence of the game itself' that it sounds like you're implying.

"Stress" and "workload". On a mere video game shop-guild? Forgive me if I find that this beggars belief.

The reality is there are too many guilds that want traders, which has driven the cost of traders way up. You really don't want to know how much a "cheap" guild trader costs per week, let alone a guild trader in a high traffic area. It's really pretty insane, especially if you've been in the game a long time and know what it used to cost for a trader and what the same trader costs now.
I personally think they need to go to a Guild Trader board that guilds can buy listing space or have listing fees per week associated.

wolfie1.0. · August 19

Burn out is a real tangible thing. Had it happen to a few gms. The best way to prevent this is to support your GMs. Don't just sell stuff, Participate, help fundraiser, get involved. If the GM does all the work then it's just a matter of time before burnout. Help them have time to play.

Anyone that thinks it's just a click and bid and done is over simplifying the process. There's more involved.

Every trade guild has had to prepare for being outbid saving a bit of extra gold for those times. Now that sales are down those guilds that saved have an advantage for a time. Those that didn't are going to have it the worst and that's where the burnout will be.

vsrs_au · August 19

LamiaCritter wrote: »

... These are merchants in a computer game, my guy. What do these trader guilds 'work hard for' aside from making an occasional key click to say 'Yes, I bid for this trader'?

Trading guilds are useful.
But they're not exactly these 'foundational pillars vital to the existence of the game itself' that it sounds like you're implying.

"Stress" and "workload". On a mere video game shop-guild? Forgive me if I find that this beggars belief.

I've never managed an ESO guild, but even I know that it's not an easy job. Perhaps you should try running your own guild, then you'll find it's actually pretty hard work.

Orbital78 · August 19

vsrs_au wrote: »

LamiaCritter wrote: »

... These are merchants in a computer game, my guy. What do these trader guilds 'work hard for' aside from making an occasional key click to say 'Yes, I bid for this trader'?

Trading guilds are useful.
But they're not exactly these 'foundational pillars vital to the existence of the game itself' that it sounds like you're implying.

"Stress" and "workload". On a mere video game shop-guild? Forgive me if I find that this beggars belief.

I've never managed an ESO guild, but even I know that it's not an easy job. Perhaps you should try running your own guild, then you'll find it's actually pretty hard work.

Agreed, some gm's don't put in the effort. If you've been blessed to find a good socially active guild that regularly does events and hosts a trader, you'll know it does take a lot of time and effort. It is also usually balanced with a full load of family and work.

Blacknight841 · August 19

LikiLoki wrote: »

Guild leaders are usually people with strong minds. They face conflicts both inside and outside the clan. There's nothing you can do about it. However, the developer could help them if he developed more tools for managing the guild, expanded the options of the guild bank, build guild houses, guild quests, unique goods with guild symbols, guild artifacts, guild currency. We need to make the guilds great again

Don’t count on it. Guild improvements were promised half decade ago. Even After 10 years we still haven’t gotten a single new guild tabard design.

DragonRacer · August 19

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Burn out is a real tangible thing. Had it happen to a few gms. The best way to prevent this is to support your GMs. Don't just sell stuff, Participate, help fundraiser, get involved. If the GM does all the work then it's just a matter of time before burnout. Help them have time to play.

Anyone that thinks it's just a click and bid and done is over simplifying the process. There's more involved.

Every trade guild has had to prepare for being outbid saving a bit of extra gold for those times. Now that sales are down those guilds that saved have an advantage for a time. Those that didn't are going to have it the worst and that's where the burnout will be.

The point and click a button made me laugh.

Trading guild GMs have to fundraise almost constantly because sales tax alone does not support trader bids. I run a weekly in-guild auction. I run raffles. I keep the guild bank organized, which is no small feat and very time-consuming when people treat it as their personal inventory trash can while you’re looking for good donations to auction or raffle off.

It’s actually a ton of work for a video game. And if you don’t have officers to help share the load, it’s worse. Yes, it’s something we chose to do. But there’s also the guilt hanging over your head of letting 499 other people down if you decide you’d like to slow down or enjoy more playing time versus guild management time. I’ve been at this for a donation-based console guild for about 7-8 years now. Sometimes I think I haven’t burned out yet simply because I’m already dead inside. LOL

But I’m also not sure what folks are expecting ZOS to do. I understand PC is going through some things right now with their massive inflation dropping. Things have dipped a lot on console as well, but not nearly as bad (but we also did not have the insane inflation that PC had).

On console years ago, our crisis and pain point was “ghost guilds” blocking out traders in order to be disbanded and sold to their allied guilds right after flip. That often killed smaller guilds’ one bid chance in order to support the large alliances. When ZOS added multi-bidding, they also disabled the structure that supported ghost guilds as an avenue of profit for the large alliances and so the ghost guilds died off. That was the single biggest improvement and help ZOS ever gave trading guilds. We’re in a much healthier place now.

Pevey · August 19

People pay absolutely insane amounts of gold on trader bids, and of course it's stressful for GMs to try to keep up. Week after week. There's nothing ZOS can do about it, except perhaps scrap the whole system because insane bids is actually the expected result of this system, where access to the market is locked behind a finite number of traders. The demand for those traders will ALWAYS be higher than the supply, because lots of people like the idea of running a guild that has a trader. They're willing to pay a lot in gold and time and stress for it.

Meanwhile, members of the guilds are in 5 different trade guilds, all bidding against each other, raising the cost for themselves. More gold to the weekly gold sink. It's absurd and kind of funny when you step back and look at it objectively.

Sync01 · August 19

I think some players are missing that it's the system for guild traders itself that's causing the stress.
It's not just that the cost of a trader is incredibly high, it's that you don't know what other guilds are bidding which creates a constant worry that your bid won't be high enough.

Highwayman · August 19

DragonRacer wrote: »

But I’m also not sure what folks are expecting ZOS to do. I understand PC is going through some things right now with their massive inflation dropping. Things have dipped a lot on console as well, but not nearly as bad (but we also did not have the insane inflation that PC had).

It seems to be turning around on psna. I had been picking up mats really cheap with a little shopping around and everything is up from that about 20-25% now. It's almost like we just had a ton of gold dumped into the system.

Pelanora · August 20

Sync01 wrote: »

I think some players are missing that it's the system for guild traders itself that's causing the stress.
It's not just that the cost of a trader is incredibly high, it's that you don't know what other guilds are bidding which creates a constant worry that your bid won't be high enough.

Well there's an obvious fix. It should be an actual auction.

Ph1p · August 20

Pelanora wrote: »

Sync01 wrote: »

I think some players are missing that it's the system for guild traders itself that's causing the stress.
It's not just that the cost of a trader is incredibly high, it's that you don't know what other guilds are bidding which creates a constant worry that your bid won't be high enough.

Well there's an obvious fix. It should be an actual auction.

The current system is an actual auction, namely a first-price sealed-bid or blind auction. What other kind would you have in mind?

Sync01 wrote: »

I think some players are missing that it's the system for guild traders itself that's causing the stress.
It's not just that the cost of a trader is incredibly high, it's that you don't know what other guilds are bidding which creates a constant worry that your bid won't be high enough.

If you know other people's bids, then they also know yours and what they need to do to outbid you. How does that alleviate any worries?

ShadowPaladin · August 20

I do have a great solution for this kind of situation (GM's being stressed out, because of bidding wars for Trader spots in certain places)

!!!

Just make it so that not only each spot a guild can bid on and wins, can't be bid on by the same guild for at least 30 days, starting the moment the 7 days of being able to use the spot ended! But, make it also so that the surrounding trade spots in close proximity (the ones a few meters away) can't be bid on for 30 days too!!!

This way guilds would be forced to circle through different spots, in different areas and the *GREED* for certain places, as well as the *stress of forcing oneself* to get a spot in those places, may be reduced.

Ph1p · August 20

ShadowPaladin wrote: »

I do have a great solution for this kind of situation (GM's being stressed out, because of bidding wars for Trader spots in certain places) !!!

Just make it so that not only each spot a guild can bid on and wins, can't be bid on by the same guild for at least 30 days, starting the moment the 7 days of being able to use the spot ended! But, make it also so that the surrounding trade spots in close proximity (the ones a few meters away) can't be bid on for 30 days too!!!

This way guilds would be forced to circle through different spots, in different areas and the *GREED* for certain places, as well as the *stress of forcing oneself* to get a spot in those places, may be reduced.

Great idea! I run a food truck and I would love being forced to move to a new city every week. And my customers would absolutely adore the fact that they can't easily find me any more. Making everything less predictable and more chaotic would definitely reduce my stress levels.

wolfie1.0. · August 20

ShadowPaladin wrote: »

I do have a great solution for this kind of situation (GM's being stressed out, because of bidding wars for Trader spots in certain places) !!!

Just make it so that not only each spot a guild can bid on and wins, can't be bid on by the same guild for at least 30 days, starting the moment the 7 days of being able to use the spot ended! But, make it also so that the surrounding trade spots in close proximity (the ones a few meters away) can't be bid on for 30 days too!!!

This way guilds would be forced to circle through different spots, in different areas and the *GREED* for certain places, as well as the *stress of forcing oneself* to get a spot in those places, may be reduced.

That would actually make things worse. Both in stress and competition.

Elsonso · August 20

ShadowPaladin wrote: »

I do have a great solution for this kind of situation (GM's being stressed out, because of bidding wars for Trader spots in certain places) !!!

Just make it so that not only each spot a guild can bid on and wins, can't be bid on by the same guild for at least 30 days, starting the moment the 7 days of being able to use the spot ended! But, make it also so that the surrounding trade spots in close proximity (the ones a few meters away) can't be bid on for 30 days too!!!

This way guilds would be forced to circle through different spots, in different areas and the *GREED* for certain places, as well as the *stress of forcing oneself* to get a spot in those places, may be reduced.

This reduces stress by making the bidder run around and find a trader that they have not used in the last 30 days?

darvaria · August 20

I 100% support OP. Trade guilds are essential and the 14 listing may have made things harder. Please listen to their proposals and offer some help.

Sync01 · August 20

Ph1p wrote: »

Sync01 wrote: »

I think some players are missing that it's the system for guild traders itself that's causing the stress.
It's not just that the cost of a trader is incredibly high, it's that you don't know what other guilds are bidding which creates a constant worry that your bid won't be high enough.

If you know other people's bids, then they also know yours and what they need to do to outbid you. How does that alleviate any worries?

I haven't said anything about how knowing other's bids would be better, just pointing out that it's not just the gold itself that's causing stress. I think the entire system is flawed and unsustainable and should be changed to an auction house system in line with what most other mmo's use.

xclassgaming · August 20

Yes, ZOS REVERT THE MARKET CHANGES ASAP PLEASE! THEY ARE KILLING THE MARKET!

ragnarok6644b14_ESO · August 20

As someone who wants to afford food (in-game) I am glad the market is lowering its prices.

I do feel bad for the guilds that don't adapt though - funny how little they struggle to *raise* prices when they go up though. How odd.

Elvenheart · August 20

Pevey wrote: »

People pay absolutely insane amounts of gold on trader bids, and of course it's stressful for GMs to try to keep up. Week after week. There's nothing ZOS can do about it, except perhaps scrap the whole system because insane bids is actually the expected result of this system, where access to the market is locked behind a finite number of traders. The demand for those traders will ALWAYS be higher than the supply, because lots of people like the idea of running a guild that has a trader. They're willing to pay a lot in gold and time and stress for it.

Meanwhile, members of the guilds are in 5 different trade guilds, all bidding against each other, raising the cost for themselves. More gold to the weekly gold sink. It's absurd and kind of funny when you step back and look at it objectively.

Personally, I think ZOS should put a reasonable cap on how much a guild can bid for a trader, and if everyone bids the same amount for the same trader select the winner randomly from the bidders, or else let it be first come first serve with the guild who got their bid in first being the winner.

Ph1p · August 20

OP please correct me, but I don't think this thread is about the recent price decreases or the amount that guild traders cost. It's about the fact that guild leaders have to deal with tons of admin, annoying/toxic players, misconceptions, and unwarranted accusations, while providing an in-game community and lots of services for free.

It would help if ZOS could provide some quality-of-life features to make this easier and encourage more people to take active roles in guild management. For example:

Allow a very limited number of guild-wide mails (e.g., 1 or 2 per week) and make it possible to select specific guild ranks as recipients. Guilds sometimes need to communicate with all their members without having to rely on add-ons, risk a social ban, or do excessive manual work.
Add a basic sales tracking feature to the game. The most common question every trading guild lead has to answer is "How do I track my sales?" and it baffles me that console players have no practicable option to do that.
Improve the functionality of the guild info page. The text windows are tiny and annoying to read with just a few lines of text visible, so almost nobody does. There should also be a tool-tip explaining customization options, like adding colored text and images.
Include more guild features, like a simple event calendar.

ComboBreaker88 · August 20

Ph1p wrote: »

OP please correct me, but I don't think this thread is about the recent price decreases or the amount that guild traders cost. It's about the fact that guild leaders have to deal with tons of admin, annoying/toxic players, misconceptions, and unwarranted accusations, while providing an in-game community and lots of services for free.

It would help if ZOS could provide some quality-of-life features to make this easier and encourage more people to take active roles in guild management. For example:
Allow a very limited number of guild-wide mails (e.g., 1 or 2 per week) and make it possible to select specific guild ranks as recipients. Guilds sometimes need to communicate with all their members without having to rely on add-ons, risk a social ban, or do excessive manual work.

Add a basic sales tracking feature to the game. The most common question every trading guild lead has to answer is "How do I track my sales?" and it baffles me that console players have no practicable option to do that.

Improve the functionality of the guild info page. The text windows are tiny and annoying to read with just a few lines of text visible, so almost nobody does. There should also be a tool-tip explaining customization options, like adding colored text and images.

Include more guild features, like a simple event calendar.

I asked for these back in 2016.. 8 years ago. They don't care.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/263520/feedback-guild-management-utilities/p1

Celticmagick · August 21

sshogrin wrote: »

LamiaCritter wrote: »

... These are merchants in a computer game, my guy. What do these trader guilds 'work hard for' aside from making an occasional key click to say 'Yes, I bid for this trader'?

Trading guilds are useful.
But they're not exactly these 'foundational pillars vital to the existence of the game itself' that it sounds like you're implying.

"Stress" and "workload". On a mere video game shop-guild? Forgive me if I find that this beggars belief.

The reality is there are too many guilds that want traders, which has driven the cost of traders way up. You really don't want to know how much a "cheap" guild trader costs per week, let alone a guild trader in a high traffic area. It's really pretty insane, especially if you've been in the game a long time and know what it used to cost for a trader and what the same trader costs now.
I personally think they need to go to a Guild Trader board that guilds can buy listing space or have listing fees per week associated.

Yeah, I was thinking about this the other day. What if they allowed 3 guilds on one trader? Like the top 3 bids. Also, for those that only sell occasionally there could be a neutral trader (no guild required) but would have a handicap on the amount of sale slots per per account per week. This way it wouldn't cut into the need of a guild for those that sell regularly.