Why am I so tired of our guild trading system? I love eso, so not a bash of this amazing game

Recent

Please note: " I know that trader bids cost millions, it's not a secret anymore". My annoyance with eso trading guilds are as follow: Most are run by irl stock brokers and bankers yes real life investors and finances. This is a fantasy game right? Then why is real life invading our fantasy world?
What bothers me the most about the trading guild system, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, is that there is NO transparency as to what money is coming into the guilds we trade. I see sellers sell in the millions and also donate in the millions BUT most are part of the officers that run the guild.
I hate our trading guild system cos of the lack of transparency. For all we know they may be making personal profits in the millions and still crying for our donations.
This is not real life so why does it feel like it? What I mean is that real life scammers and greedy people are exploiting us.
There is money laundering happening and all sorts and yet most put up with it.
There are some scams going on and some players are waking up to it.
Why Zos allow this is beyond me. I have a lot of respect for our zos devs BUT ...what is going on when you have to stop crown store gifting to stop scamming? There's more going on and a game should not feel unsafe and exploitative.

Thanks for reading

hiyde

That's a broad brush you are painting with with a lot of assumptions tossed in.

There are plenty of VERY transparent guilds out there who are very up front & public about exactly what every member contributes while giving a solid info on what 1/500th of expenses is.

In my experience/observations, the last way to "get rich" in this game is to operate a trade guild that has to come up with a winning bid every week. Sales taxes contribute ~20% of the bid in popular cities with the other 80% coming from fundraising that includes raffles, auctions, farming runs, other activities to keep members engaged and more. All of these things, while labors of love, are extremely time consuming.

Trade guild GMs/Officers are typically unpaid volunteers who enjoy helping others get the most out of this aspect of the game. In fact, they tend to be amongst the biggest contributors to their guilds. This narrative some folks endlessly push that trade guild managers are greedy fat cats getting rich on the backs of their members is tiring and disingenous. Try running a long-time successful trade guild and get back to us.

If you feel your trade guild management is not being honest or transparent about what it takes to fund the kiosk, there are plenty out there you can join that do. Sure, there are bad actors in any scenario, but they are a tiny minority.

P.S. Can you provide some backup that "most" Trade Guild GM's are working in finance IRL? That's quite the claim.

xilfxlegion

odd statements.

i am presently in 12 trading guilds. none are run by bankers or stock brokers. i have been in at least 50 of them since the game came out --- none were run by bankers or stock brokers.

that being said -- none of the guilds i am in beg for donations.

as far as transparency goes -- the traders i am in get a good location every week and they all have fully loaded guild houses - i dont see what more transparency is needed. you pay whatever your dues are each week and you sell your stuff.

now - you brought up real life.

if you pay rent and the things in your house or apartment are maintained - do you seriously ask the landlord what he does with the money he makes from you ?

not to mention -- you can play this game and buy and sell stuff without ever once being involved in a trading guild - it is your choice. you also mention money laundering and scams and being exploited but offer zero proof of any of it.

i get that some people dont like guilds -- but to throw out ridiculous statements like this is just silly.

DragonRacer

I run one of the last few 100% independent donation-based trading guilds on PS5 NA. Seems most everyone else has hooked up into one alliance or another. I refuse to for a variety of reasons.

My IRL job is ad order entry for a media business. I don't even control my own stocks, my 401K is left in the hands of Fidelity to figure out for me. LOL

I make zero profit off of running my guild aside from what items I sell through our guild trader. I don't BEG for donations, but I do remind folks that we are 100% donation based so every donation helps. The sales tax made off sales is not huge, so we (and all trading guilds) have to supplement with in-guild auctions, raffles, and straight up donations.

You do need to have a decent bank balance if you want to place more than one bid each week because even though only ONE bid can win, you have to have the gold in the guild bank up front to place up to 10 bids so that if your primary bid doesn't win, you have some backup bids in play. Once trader flip happens, if one of your bids won, that gold disappears into the void and any other backup bids you placed are refunded to the guild bank. You are now out whatever X amount that won was and your goal this week is to make that money back (so it isn't a net loss) or, hopefully, make more back so you can grow your nest egg and try to place maybe higher bids in bigger cities sometimes. Most guilds where I can see the finances just do well to break even each week. I see nobody making millions and sitting around in their virtual house twirling their moustache.

Considering we are not allied with other guilds and you never know who could be a silent member in your guild spying for one of said alliances, there is no sane reason to share guild bank amount or bid amount. Trading guilds compete against each other every week in a blind bid system; as soon as someone knows what money you're working with, they can plan to outbid you and push you out of desired cities. Non-transparency is for guild survival, not to pull the wool over members' eyes. It is INCREDIBLY competitive out there in trading guild GM land and, sometimes, extremely nasty.

The only folks I'd suspect of making money in the fashion you proclaim are anyone running farming bots to feed massive public auctions or other type actions. That is a major problem that PC doesn't appear to have anymore, from what I've heard, but console is plagued with them.

colossalvoids

Personally I was always "pro" this system, I still am. But crown trading made it less appealing especially knowing exactly how some of the guilds operating and destroying their more "free to play" competitors. Both systems are good when separated, but whole deal sours it in a way. Still remember my two main guilds choke because of this change and how they were driven off from the game basically in the end despite throwing out a fight previously.

Recent

hiyde wrote: »

That's a broad brush you are painting with with a lot of assumptions tossed in.

There are plenty of VERY transparent guilds out there who are very up front & public about exactly what every member contributes while giving a solid info on what 1/500th of expenses is.

In my experience/observations, the last way to "get rich" in this game is to operate a trade guild that has to come up with a winning bid every week. Sales taxes contribute ~20% of the bid in popular cities with the other 80% coming from fundraising that includes raffles, auctions, farming runs, other activities to keep members engaged and more. All of these things, while labors of love, are extremely time consuming.

Trade guild GMs/Officers are typically unpaid volunteers who enjoy helping others get the most out of this aspect of the game. In fact, they tend to be amongst the biggest contributors to their guilds. This narrative some folks endlessly push that trade guild managers are greedy fat cats getting rich on the backs of their members is tiring and disingenous. Try running a long-time successful trade guild and get back to us.

If you feel your trade guild management is not being honest or transparent about what it takes to fund the kiosk, there are plenty out there you can join that do. Sure, there are bad actors in any scenario, but they are a tiny minority.

P.S. Can you provide some backup that "most" Trade Guild GM's are working in finance IRL? That's quite the claim.

They actually tell us they work in those fields

bmnoble

So lets say you tell all your members there is X amount of gold in the guild bank, that we bid X amount on each trader location, then some of those members blab to someone in their potential 4 other guilds, then someone in those guilds does the same, so that when one of those guilds is struggling to get a trader they bid just enough to swipe some or all of the traders your guild usually bids on, thus having no trader for your members that week.

A trade guild that can't regularly secure a trading location is going to haemorrhage members if it carries on for over a month.

I am glad there are people prepared to run these guilds, got zero desire to be an officer of guild master myself, the few I know dedicate a significant amount of their own playtime and resources towards making their guilds successful.

TaSheen

Recent wrote: »

hiyde wrote: »

That's a broad brush you are painting with with a lot of assumptions tossed in.

There are plenty of VERY transparent guilds out there who are very up front & public about exactly what every member contributes while giving a solid info on what 1/500th of expenses is.

In my experience/observations, the last way to "get rich" in this game is to operate a trade guild that has to come up with a winning bid every week. Sales taxes contribute ~20% of the bid in popular cities with the other 80% coming from fundraising that includes raffles, auctions, farming runs, other activities to keep members engaged and more. All of these things, while labors of love, are extremely time consuming.

Trade guild GMs/Officers are typically unpaid volunteers who enjoy helping others get the most out of this aspect of the game. In fact, they tend to be amongst the biggest contributors to their guilds. This narrative some folks endlessly push that trade guild managers are greedy fat cats getting rich on the backs of their members is tiring and disingenous. Try running a long-time successful trade guild and get back to us.

If you feel your trade guild management is not being honest or transparent about what it takes to fund the kiosk, there are plenty out there you can join that do. Sure, there are bad actors in any scenario, but they are a tiny minority.

P.S. Can you provide some backup that "most" Trade Guild GM's are working in finance IRL? That's quite the claim.

They actually tell us they work in those fields

Uh. It's generally not logical to believe anything anyone says about what they do IRL in a game like this....

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Wow. I'm sorry you have such trust issues.
First off, No. The GM's in this game, speaking for NAPC, is not run by all stock brokers and bankers as you assert.
I have played since 2013 and have known or had interactions with a LOT of the GM and what you say is just untrue.
I myself am a GM of a social guild that maintains a trader each week. I am a retired chef. We do not 'Beg" for donations nor do we charge dues. All transactions are available and transparent to any guildie who wishes them, which is the norm for every guild I know of.
Just FYI, running a guild is almost like a real job and takes a lot of work and time. And we don't make anything monetarily from the guild, and just so you know, I donate millions a week of my own gold. If you doubt what I or others here say, try running a trading guild yourself and see what it's really like.

If you are in a guild and you suspect it of any of the things you mentioned, just ask your GM for transparency. If they refuse or you think you are being scammed,(yes there are a small amount of that accruing), then quit and find a respectable guild. The majority of guilds are trustworthy and respectable.
Good luck to you.

katanagirl1

Yes, the GM of my donation-based guild often puts up additional finds to get us a capital city trader, and only asks for us to sell as much as we can and donate what we can.

LaintalAy

Recent wrote: »

Please note: " I know that trader bids cost millions, it's not a secret anymore". My annoyance with eso trading guilds are as follow:
What bothers me the most about the trading guild system, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, is that there is NO transparency as to what money is coming into the guilds we trade. I see sellers sell in the millions and also donate in the millions BUT most are part of the officers that run the guild.
I hate our trading guild system cos of the lack of transparency. For all we know they may be making personal profits in the millions and still crying for our donations.
This is not real life so why does it feel like it? What I mean is that real life scammers and greedy people are exploiting us.
There is money laundering happening and all sorts and yet most put up with it.
There are some scams going on and some players are waking up to it.
Why Zos allow this is beyond me. I have a lot of respect for our zos devs BUT ...what is going on when you have to stop crown store gifting to stop scamming? There's more going on and a game should not feel unsafe and exploitative.

Thanks for reading

Most are run by irl stock brokers and bankers yes real life investors and finances. This is a fantasy game right? Then why is real life invading our fantasy world?

I can't agree with your first comment. But yeah, this is a game and it should be 'fun'.

What bothers me the most about the trading guild system, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, is that there is NO transparency as to what money is coming into the guilds we trade. I see sellers sell in the millions and also donate in the millions BUT most are part of the officers that run the guild.

This is how I think where ever a guild advertises 'Tax back for Top Traders'. Mostly, the top traders are the same players every week, selling outrageous volumes for huge totals and leaving the 'tax' burden to everyone else in the guild.
Look here for one cause of our current woes.

I hate our trading guild system cos of the lack of transparency. For all we know they may be making personal profits in the millions and still crying for our donations

Maybe. Most players will doubt the 'personal profits' part.
'Crying for donations', otherwise known as 'blackmail' is real enough.
It can't be a 'donation' if it's 'mandatory'. That's a fee.

This is not real life so why does it feel like it? What I mean is that real life scammers and greedy people are exploiting us.

Theoretically, there are 24 million of us spending some money here; that's not insignificant. There are scams everywhere now, wherever there is online spending. *** remember this when you give your personals details to an offshore third-party. This is the main reason that I won't ever use TTC. They may be OK, but I wont take the risk.

Why Zos allow this is beyond me. I have a lot of respect for our zos devs BUT ...what is going on when you have to stop crown store gifting to stop scamming? There's more going on and a game should not feel unsafe and exploitative.

They aren't allowing it. They've actually been pretty frank on that subject, if you read the stickied post. They inconvenienced a section of the player community to ensure that the rest of us weren't involved in some of these scams.

LikiLoki

Everything is transparent in my guild. Anyone sees the gold of the guild, anyone sees all the contributions of other people and he sees how much the head of the guild or officers takes from the bank.
Most guild leaders don't earn anything from it. Only a small part of large alliances use crown exchanges to support their status

katanagirl1

Tax back for top traders? You know every listing has a fee associated with it, so the more you sell, the more gold goes to the guild, not the other way around.

LaintalAy

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Tax back for top traders? You know every listing has a fee associated with it, so the more you sell, the more gold goes to the guild, not the other way around.

They have it in their MOTD

1st 100% tax back
2nd 50% tax back
3rd 25% tax back.

Or a similar arrangement. The figure is refunded by mail, in gold afaik.

Regardless of the semantics involved, it ends up being that the rest of the players contribute to the tax pool and are then expected to meet the 'sales and donations' targets as well.

I don't know from actual experience, because I never joined these guilds.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Just to clarify, a guild only makes 3.5% tax off of guild sales.
The listing fee does not go to the guild but is a gold sink.
This is why donations are sorely needed to keep a guild trader.

katanagirl1

LaintalAy wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Tax back for top traders? You know every listing has a fee associated with it, so the more you sell, the more gold goes to the guild, not the other way around.

They have it in their MOTD

1st 100% tax back
2nd 50% tax back
3rd 25% tax back.

Or a similar arrangement. The figure is refunded by mail, in gold afaik.

Regardless of the semantics involved, it ends up being that the rest of the players contribute to the tax pool and are then expected to meet the 'sales and donations' targets as well.

I don't know from actual experience, because I never joined these guilds.

So you haven’t actually seen this, but heard it from someone. Correct?

Ph1p

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Tax back for top traders? You know every listing has a fee associated with it, so the more you sell, the more gold goes to the guild, not the other way around.

There are indeed trading guilds offering tax refunds on a regular basis. Here is one advertising on this forum right now. The guilds I’m in don't do this, but occasionally hold sales events with gold prizes. Either way, the idea is to introduce a competitive element, incentivizing all members to sell more, which helps the guild overall. However, our prizes are often sponsored by individual members, not the guild bank.

EDIT: Just saw your signature. I'm fairly certain this is only a thing on PC servers, since we have add-ons that can easily determine everybody's sales and tax volume.

DragonRacer

Ph1p wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Tax back for top traders? You know every listing has a fee associated with it, so the more you sell, the more gold goes to the guild, not the other way around.

There are indeed trading guilds offering tax refunds on a regular basis. Here is one advertising on this forum right now. My guilds don't do this, but occasionally hold sales events with gold prizes. Either way, the idea is to introduce a competitive element, incentivizing all members to sell more, which helps the guild overall. However, our prizes are often sponsored by individual members, not the guild bank.

EDIT: Just saw your signature. I'm fairly certain this is only a thing on PC servers, since we have add-ons that can easily determine everybody's sales and tax volume.

Definitely only a thing on PC servers because your add-ons can provide a wealth of trader guild info that GMs on console cannot access.

LaintalAy

katanagirl1 wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Tax back for top traders? You know every listing has a fee associated with it, so the more you sell, the more gold goes to the guild, not the other way around.

They have it in their MOTD

1st 100% tax back
2nd 50% tax back
3rd 25% tax back.

Or a similar arrangement. The figure is refunded by mail, in gold afaik.

Regardless of the semantics involved, it ends up being that the rest of the players contribute to the tax pool and are then expected to meet the 'sales and donations' targets as well.

I don't know from actual experience, because I never joined these guilds.

So you haven’t actually seen this, but heard it from someone. Correct?

Incorrect,

I have never received Tax back from anyone.
That doesn't change what's written in the MOTD.

Believe it not.

VvwvenomwvV

I run Gods "R" Us on PSN NA. We are a donation based guild that provides a quality guild trader, trial runs, and help with dungeon skins, titles, personalities, and achievements.

I can not speak for any other guilds, but I can say that I go in the hole by millions of gold every week. We've been doing this for years. Why you ask? Because we have good people who enjoys helping others.

I would like to see an update to guild trading structure.

16BitForestCat

I can't wait for things in ESO trading to even out, if only so there aren't so many posts of conspiracy theories of cartels and shouting about how the sky is falling.

My primary trading guild that's been around since launch (no dues or sales requirements) just announced they can no longer try to get a trader spot every week because sales have plummeted until they're not keeping up with bidding costs. So the officers are just going to try to save up and get a trader maybe once every month or two, or if they're lucky enough to find a trader with no bids they can just snap up for that week. When they tried lowering their bids recently, we'd always lose out on getting a trader at all, so the bid cost has not gone down along with the decreased sales and sale prices, not for this guild at least. We never had traders in "prime" spots, always looking for cheaper locations that wouldn't strain the guild's coffers. But we did have a trader almost every week from the time of their introduction until the past few months. Change is inevitable, especially in a game like this, and we're just going to have to adapt to this one if the guild is going to last on the trading end.

Edit 14 August: now the guild's probably going to disband by the end of the week (or not? It's still not decided.) It's pretty unsettling how many guilds are faltering in the wake of these changes, ones that were never even major trading guilds. Ah, well, what I said earlier about inevitable change and all that. I was losing interest in the trading game anyways. Now to go laugh at some mods on chat, uninstall TTC and whatnot....


EDIT:

Uh. It's generally not logical to believe anything anyone says about what they do IRL in a game like this....

*Snerk*

"On the Internet, no one knows you're a cat...."

LaintalAy

16BitForestCat wrote: »

My primary trading guild that's been around since launch (no dues or sales requirements) just announced they can no longer try to get a trader spot every week because sales have plummeted until they're not keeping up with bidding costs. So the officers are just going to try to save up and get a trader maybe once every month or two, or if they're lucky enough to find a trader with no bids they can just snap up for that week.

snip

This is how it Guild Trading was originally intended.

katanagirl1

LaintalAy wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Tax back for top traders? You know every listing has a fee associated with it, so the more you sell, the more gold goes to the guild, not the other way around.

They have it in their MOTD

1st 100% tax back
2nd 50% tax back
3rd 25% tax back.

Or a similar arrangement. The figure is refunded by mail, in gold afaik.

Regardless of the semantics involved, it ends up being that the rest of the players contribute to the tax pool and are then expected to meet the 'sales and donations' targets as well.

I don't know from actual experience, because I never joined these guilds.

So you haven’t actually seen this, but heard it from someone. Correct?

Incorrect,

I have never received Tax back from anyone.
That doesn't change what's written in the MOTD.

Believe it not.

I think you misunderstood me. I was asking about the MoTD - if you aren’t in any guilds, how would you know about it other than rumor?

katanagirl1

Ph1p wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Tax back for top traders? You know every listing has a fee associated with it, so the more you sell, the more gold goes to the guild, not the other way around.

There are indeed trading guilds offering tax refunds on a regular basis. Here is one advertising on this forum right now. The guilds I’m in don't do this, but occasionally hold sales events with gold prizes. Either way, the idea is to introduce a competitive element, incentivizing all members to sell more, which helps the guild overall. However, our prizes are often sponsored by individual members, not the guild bank.

EDIT: Just saw your signature. I'm fairly certain this is only a thing on PC servers, since we have add-ons that can easily determine everybody's sales and tax volume.

Yes, I am on console.

So it is a thing, huh. Well, in a big trading guild the people selling stuff are the ones paying for the trader, not the ones who aren’t. I could see where that would be a nice incentive to participate at the highest level. I would also expect that to be suspended in the current circumstances.

My guild is donation based and I am sure that 5% of the members are paying 100% for the trader.

Recent

VvwvenomwvV wrote: »

I run Gods "R" Us on PSN NA. We are a donation based guild that provides a quality guild trader, trial runs, and help with dungeon skins, titles, personalities, and achievements.

I can not speak for any other guilds, but I can say that I go in the hole by millions of gold every week. We've been doing this for years. Why you ask? Because we have good people who enjoys helping others.

I would like to see an update to guild trading structure.

I appreciate your reply

Recent

LaintalAy wrote: »

16BitForestCat wrote: »

My primary trading guild that's been around since launch (no dues or sales requirements) just announced they can no longer try to get a trader spot every week because sales have plummeted until they're not keeping up with bidding costs. So the officers are just going to try to save up and get a trader maybe once every month or two, or if they're lucky enough to find a trader with no bids they can just snap up for that week.

snip

This is how it Guild Trading was originally intended.

And this is a good system? See my point? Not all players have many millions stored away and everything has got so expensive, yea cost of living crisis in Tamriel. So when players without so much gold join trading guilds they feel pressured to donate gold to help keep the trader but many players are just trying to make gold to keep up with the cost of items such as grimoires for example oof how expensive are they?

When trading guilds are struggling that much to keep their weekly trader and players are not selling much but spending more then we have a collapsing economy...sounds like real life aye. Is this a fantasy game or what?

LaintalAy

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I think you misunderstood me. I was asking about the MoTD - if you aren’t in any guilds, how would you know about it other than rumor?

Yes, it looks that way.

I know because i am the proverbial Guild Hopper.
I have joined every Guild on EU that has ever had a presence in Belkarth, Mournhold, Vivic and Grahtwood. As well as those in Malabal Tor, Hollow city and RawlKa.

I shop regularly at Sentinel, Skywatch, Windhelm (used to) as well as the smaller locations of three traders. I pay attention to who is where and review their membership when I join. I regularly see when big guilds get their 'second best' bid. Noticable because all their prices are 20% higher than the locals in that area.

My Guild hopping started when Guilds would declare "we have a spot in Wayrest". I don't know why that is important; I have historically never done well at any Wayrest trader. So I'd find something else.

As a result, I read a LOT of MOTD's when applying.

One guild leader has a name that refers to a soccer team. I challenged him on the idea of donations when they first started and his response was "lol! meh... " i have avoided his guilds ever since. He has gone on to be 'rolling' in gold.

I have never been rejected from applying to a major guild; nor have I been dumped. All respectable guilds appear to know that I am a no-nonsense trader that will generate normal sales income and not cause any problems.

My firm belief is that Guilds need me, more than I need them. That attitude has never let me down.

The guild trader system alarm started ringing when 'The Alchemist's Emporium' closed.

I hope that resolves your concerns.

LaintalAy

katanagirl1 wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Tax back for top traders? You know every listing has a fee associated with it, so the more you sell, the more gold goes to the guild, not the other way around.

They have it in their MOTD

1st 100% tax back
2nd 50% tax back
3rd 25% tax back.

Or a similar arrangement. The figure is refunded by mail, in gold afaik.

Regardless of the semantics involved, it ends up being that the rest of the players contribute to the tax pool and are then expected to meet the 'sales and donations' targets as well.

I don't know from actual experience, because I never joined these guilds.

So you haven’t actually seen this, but heard it from someone. Correct?

Arictheana

I've hated the guild trading system from the beginning. It's so stupid running around the world to look at traders

Heren

16BitForestCat wrote: »

I can't wait for things in ESO trading to even out, if only so there aren't so many posts of conspiracy theories of cartels and shouting about how the sky is falling.

My primary trading guild that's been around since launch (no dues or sales requirements) just announced they can no longer try to get a trader spot every week because sales have plummeted until they're not keeping up with bidding costs. So the officers are just going to try to save up and get a trader maybe once every month or two, or if they're lucky enough to find a trader with no bids they can just snap up for that week. When they tried lowering their bids recently, we'd always lose out on getting a trader at all, so the bid cost has not gone down along with the decreased sales and sale prices, not for this guild at least. We never had traders in "prime" spots, always looking for cheaper locations that wouldn't strain the guild's coffers. But we did have a trader almost every week from the time of their introduction until the past few months. Change is inevitable, especially in a game like this, and we're just going to have to adapt to this one if the guild is going to last on the trading end.

That's what I really love in all these economics threads : there are very vocal people shouting out how the economy is in shamble, price are plumeting to the ground, no one is buying, no one is selling, trading guilds are running on their banked gold to get traders, and that the population is declining.

And on the other hand, there are humble trading guilds that can no longer afford renting a trader every week, not one of these top location trader but any trader, even one located in the depth of glenumbra forest, because almost every trader in the world are getting bidden on, and apparently with quite substantial amount of gold ?

Ok, maybe this is another PC vs console thing, but still. People are so quick to jump at things and spout non-sense everywhere, it's, I don't know, funny and sad at the same time.

tincanman

Guilds can multibid on different traders and often do. The larger guilds are probably trying to find the sweet spot for their bids for their 'main' trader by lowering their bids over time but can probably still afford, even with reductions, to put ridiculously high bids on their secondary trader(s) bids. I expect it is this being experienced by smaller trade and/or social guilds that maintain traders - the cascade effect of trade guilds trying to maintain their preferred location but hedging their bets and in so doing outbidding those lower in the trade hierarchy who are likewise trying to adjust to sales slumps.

In short, larger trade guilds have deeper pockets so can arguably weather the downward adjustment of trader bids for longer and with more flexibility. At the expense of more casual traders, in the short term anyway.