Player Skill level

bmnoble

I play on satellite internet, all those just a few second to react one hit mechanics in DLC dungeons especially on vet, don't work well with high latency, my ping is usually between 700 - 999+ so if you get killed by me in PVP I assure you, it was not just a fluke but more akin to a miracle.

Heck even in overland sometimes I move well and truly out of the red area of an attack of some overland mobs but the server still says I am in the path and get hit anyway.

Unhallowed grave and the one that released with it were the last DLC dungeons I did on normal, since then I don't bother with them. Managed most of the base game dungeons on vet over the years, only DLC ones I did on vet were the two imperial city ones and fang lair.

EnerG

1 tank and 3 dps (no healer) are standard for very skilled players running achievements and trifectas in dungeons. Only a fraction of players will be knowledgeable enough In their role with the skills to use that knowledge in this way. Most players require the standard 1 tank 1 healer 2 dps.

Unless you're running a base game hard modes 4 dps just isn't the play, we always use some form of tank so the dps can spank.

TaSheen

bmnoble wrote: »

I play on satellite internet, all those just a few second to react one hit mechanics in DLC dungeons especially on vet, don't work well with high latency, my ping is usually between 700 - 999+ so if you get killed by me in PVP I assure you, it was not just a fluke but more akin to a miracle.

Heck even in overland sometimes I move well and truly out of the red area of an attack of some overland mobs but the server still says I am in the path and get hit anyway.

Unhallowed grave and the one that released with it were the last DLC dungeons I did on normal, since then I don't bother with them. Managed most of the base game dungeons on vet over the years, only DLC ones I did on vet were the two imperial city ones and fang lair.

Yeah. Sat lag will kill you even if you think you're okay.... I know how that works!

Nharimlur_Finor

edited

minnowfaun

No. We can't. We're a 3 man team. If you count Isabel, then yes.

LunaFlora

in my experience you need a tank and healer for a lot of dlc hardmodes.

Have you done every hardmode with a 4dd group?

Ardriel

Depends on the dungeon... ICP hm can be done with 4 dds without problems. But what kind of question is that anyway? Are you saying that only players who manage vet DLC without a tank are good players? That's ridiculous. Sure, there are some who can do it and there are even players who can do it solo. But that is by no means standard. Players who can do a vet dlc without hm in a group with all roles without major problems are already good enough to play this game.

alpha_synuclein

Since when ignoring the fact that support roles exist is a measure of skill?...

Orbital78

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Since when ignoring the fact that support roles exist is a measure of skill?...

Good tanks are treasures not to be let loose. especially in newer trials. Experienced supports usually make a vastly smoother run. Also the ability to go 3 dd.

zaria

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

Completely agree. Most people seem to be afraid of veteran dungeons and it confuses me as I see them as a natural progression of the game- many people who play really are casual in their approach

The basegame dungeons are done HM as default, had drama then after 6-7 wipe I say we did not do HM.
Vet DLC is another story, DLC HM you are in an guild group or stupid. I say your guild is not keeping or requiting players.
Now done some vet dlc with pugs and we agree to try HM and it worked.
Not tried the new group finder for other than trials.

heng14rwb17_ESO

Weird, got many people seem to think it is not doable with 4DD.
How about 4 arcanist ?
Or if it too difficult.
One of the DD can be DK.

Sarannah

My skilllevel is at running from those scary mudcrabs I encounter everywhere. So no to the OP's question!

Orbital78

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Weird, got many people seem to think it is not doable with 4DD.
How about 4 arcanist ?
Or if it too difficult.
One of the DD can be DK.

I've basically ended up soloing ICP hm cuz they all died at like 50%. I would like to see 4dd do ERE hm. I don't think I could, or even want to try.

sarahthes

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Weird, got many people seem to think it is not doable with 4DD.
How about 4 arcanist ?
Or if it too difficult.
One of the DD can be DK.

All I know is the fastest known clear of coral aerie trifecta, considered the most difficult dungeon, used a tank and 3 dds.

So perhaps it's not an issue of whether it's possible, and more one of whether it's the most effective strategy.

purple-magicb16_ESO

If by skill you mean hitting keyboard keys, there is no skill in this game,. It's all about builds. If you have a current meta build and even remotely know how to play it properly then you will do very well. I got off that build treadmill a long time ago, so my answer is no, I have all old (nerfed) builds so I can't do HM dungeons anymore.

CatoUnchained

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I have a feeling that the skill of players have been dropping a lot.
Are you able to complete a vet DLC dungeon HM with 4 DD?
Reply yes if u can or no if cannot.

Yes, the overall skill level of the player base has declined noticeably since U35. U35 was really bad and practically begged the veteran player base to stop playing. Things have only gotten worse since then. ZOS has gone full casual mode with no focus on end game PvE or PvP.

heng14rwb17_ESO

Any idea on how to upgrade the player base skill level ?

Orbital78

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Any idea on how to upgrade the player base skill level ?

Buy crowns, get a dozen armory slots and tank?

Soarora

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Any idea on how to upgrade the player base skill level ?

You don’t. People who don’t want to improve won’t. People who do want to improve will. Still wondering what dungeon you’re thinking of that the standard should be 4DPSing the HM. Even SCP full burn “4dps” trifecta has a tank-dps hybrid.

MEBengalsFan2001

Soarora wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

1T, 3D yes, but 4D? I know SCP can be done that way, so I could probably do that, but I’m not sure what other dlc HMs can be 4 DPS’d. Maybe MHK?
Skill levels aren’t really dropping, unless you consider being an arcanist dps main a skill drop since its harder to go back to a regular DPS rotation. The problem is ZOS trying to raise the floor without giving people the tools to become better at the game. Hard to get people to improve when they don’t want to, and going from “any build works in overland” to “your build doesn’t work for this content” is a shock to people.

Other mmo simply have gear that improve stats whereas eso what gear you use, food/drink consumed, stat allocation and skills used, and rotation all determine a player ability to produce in this game. This goes for pve and pvp. It goes by role as well. It’s quite different compared to other mmo that simply offer better gear with better stats based on the role played and than it about skill used and rotation. Adding so many more elements is where eso is complex. But the reality is you have deadly strike and req and off you go to max out your damage.

Yes. I really think it’d go a long way if ZOS would either give better build suggestions or have in-game links to content creators who are known for having good builds that are well explained. Most sets are useless and should be buffed, but that doesn’t fix the overwhelm of so many options, few working. Once you know the basics, its far less overwhelming. But ZOS doesn’t teach the basics. ZOS also needs to clarify “play how you want” because it does not mean what many people think it means.

To fix sets to be more useful devs first need to separate pve from pvp sets. Making deadly a pvp only set since it comes from pvp area would change what gear to use in pve for damage dealer. If varnished for instance was pve only it would remove it from being an over tuned set in pvp. Devs can use battle spirit to make gear work or not in pvp.

SeaUnicorn

Scrivener's Hall and Coral Aerie 4DD sound like a great idea (:

LittlePinkDot

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I have a feeling that the skill of players have been dropping a lot.
Are you able to complete a vet DLC dungeon HM with 4 DD?
Reply yes if u can or no if cannot.

Never played a HM dungeon in my life. Only reason I would do regular Vet is for a monster helmet. But If I can get it from the Golden Vendor that's even better.

FriedEggSandwich

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

Completely agree. Most people seem to be afraid of veteran dungeons and it confuses me as I see them as a natural progression of the game- many people who play really are casual in their approach

I feel like this is mostly due to shyness around, or lack of trust in randoms. If you put me on discord with people I know and trust I will do any content. There's no way I would queue for a random vet dlc dungeon, knowing full well that the hm would defo be activated without discussion.

zaria

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I have a feeling that the skill of players have been dropping a lot.
Are you able to complete a vet DLC dungeon HM with 4 DD?
Reply yes if u can or no if cannot.

Never played a HM dungeon in my life. Only reason I would do regular Vet is for a monster helmet. But If I can get it from the Golden Vendor that's even better.

For the old base game dungeons HM is assumed in pug runs. Think I done vet on an half of dlc dungeons but only HM some of the earlier one.

Soarora

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

Completely agree. Most people seem to be afraid of veteran dungeons and it confuses me as I see them as a natural progression of the game- many people who play really are casual in their approach

I feel like this is mostly due to shyness around, or lack of trust in randoms. If you put me on discord with people I know and trust I will do any content. There's no way I would queue for a random vet dlc dungeon, knowing full well that the hm would defo be activated without discussion.

HM activation in random DLC doesn’t really happen. I’ve had it happen for MHK and CT but not really anywhere else. Even if someone does do HM, usually its a couple pulls then non-HM. Or if you’re a tank and you know things will go badly you can pull before someone activates HM.

FriedEggSandwich

Soarora wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

Completely agree. Most people seem to be afraid of veteran dungeons and it confuses me as I see them as a natural progression of the game- many people who play really are casual in their approach

I feel like this is mostly due to shyness around, or lack of trust in randoms. If you put me on discord with people I know and trust I will do any content. There's no way I would queue for a random vet dlc dungeon, knowing full well that the hm would defo be activated without discussion.

HM activation in random DLC doesn’t really happen. I’ve had it happen for MHK and CT but not really anywhere else. Even if someone does do HM, usually its a couple pulls then non-HM. Or if you’re a tank and you know things will go badly you can pull before someone activates HM.

Good to know, I assumed people would be greedy for keys. I've had it happen to me in the past. Possibly the real reason for my fear of doing vet pugs is my lack of knowledge of dlc dungeon mechanics. I would most likely need to be carried by randoms. I've done vet falkreath with guildies about 4 times in the past, and still don't really know what's going on. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

bmnoble

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

Completely agree. Most people seem to be afraid of veteran dungeons and it confuses me as I see them as a natural progression of the game- many people who play really are casual in their approach

I feel like this is mostly due to shyness around, or lack of trust in randoms. If you put me on discord with people I know and trust I will do any content. There's no way I would queue for a random vet dlc dungeon, knowing full well that the hm would defo be activated without discussion.

HM activation in random DLC doesn’t really happen. I’ve had it happen for MHK and CT but not really anywhere else. Even if someone does do HM, usually its a couple pulls then non-HM. Or if you’re a tank and you know things will go badly you can pull before someone activates HM.

Good to know, I assumed people would be greedy for keys. I've had it happen to me in the past. Possibly the real reason for my fear of doing vet pugs is my lack of knowledge of dlc dungeon mechanics. I would most likely need to be carried by randoms. I've done vet falkreath with guildies about 4 times in the past, and still don't really know what's going on. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Yep had that happen, few years ago queued for Ruins of Mazzatun on normal for a pledge, due to a bug got put in the vet version along with two of the others in the PUG group in the same situation and one who queued for vet, well we gave it a go, struggled through the boss fights, cleared them, till we got to the final fight, due to how we struggled I suggested we not do HM, was overruled "what was the point of vet without the extra keys" we tried failed multiple times in a row and when the one that queued vet realised we were not going to manage the HM, rather than do it without the HM, they were the first to leave, eventually the rest of us gave up.

Soarora

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Icy_Waffles wrote: »

Completely agree. Most people seem to be afraid of veteran dungeons and it confuses me as I see them as a natural progression of the game- many people who play really are casual in their approach

I feel like this is mostly due to shyness around, or lack of trust in randoms. If you put me on discord with people I know and trust I will do any content. There's no way I would queue for a random vet dlc dungeon, knowing full well that the hm would defo be activated without discussion.

HM activation in random DLC doesn’t really happen. I’ve had it happen for MHK and CT but not really anywhere else. Even if someone does do HM, usually its a couple pulls then non-HM. Or if you’re a tank and you know things will go badly you can pull before someone activates HM.

Good to know, I assumed people would be greedy for keys. I've had it happen to me in the past. Possibly the real reason for my fear of doing vet pugs is my lack of knowledge of dlc dungeon mechanics. I would most likely need to be carried by randoms. I've done vet falkreath with guildies about 4 times in the past, and still don't really know what's going on. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

I think if you say you don't really understand the mechanics, sometimes people will explain them to you. Sometimes people will leave, but not everyone will. If you can perform your role well and especially if you've done the dungeon on normal first, I think it'll be fine. I haven't seen very many toxic puggers. They are out there, but I feel the majority of my dungeon pugs are people who also don't understand what's going on and/or people who are not peak of their role. I remember when I was newer and honestly, I think I had the most fun in dungeons when it was me and 3 pugs who were trying to work out how to complete the dungeon.

LaintalAy wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Any idea on how to upgrade the player base skill level ?

I'm working on the theory that you are really saying that there isn't enough players around to run the content that you would prefer to run. It's hard to tell from what you've posted so far.
Sure. Ask experienced players in Normal level 1 & 2 dungeons to stop speeding running and to take the time to allow newer and inexperienced players to learn:

• Mechanics
• Their own build effectiveness
• How to play their chosen role correctly
• Confidence

That way these new and inexperienced players can then move onto Veteran Level dungeons where all these skill and abilities can be fine-tuned, with the help and assistance of other more experienced team players.

HM versions and Trials can follow from that. Progressive thinking, no?

No doubt an unpopular suggestion, but who really cares?

I feel like normal dungeons are for first getting your toes wet with dungeons and vet dungeons are for actually learning mechanics. A good DPS will burn a normal dungeon to the point you're missing mechanics anyways and a lot of mechanics aren't as catastrophic as vet. When I was learning as a tank, I did vet non-dlc dungeons going up in difficulty until I felt ready to work through dlc dungeons in increasing difficulty. I didn't do dlc dungeons on normal. When I first started dungeons, I think I did normal fang lair repeatedly until I did vet fang lair repeatedly and then I quit and swapped to healer because I had terrible DPS and would get kicked from groups. The problem wasn't that I didn't understand fang lair but that my DPS was bad, and this is a consequence of ZOS not explaining how to build a DPS very well. I didn't notice the thing that tells you what skills to use, I didn't understand that I needed to put all my attributes in my damaging resource, I didn't understand wearing heavy armor as a DPS was a bad idea... no player is going to sit down in a pug dungeon run and explain the basics of how to build to me. I explain mechanics to people, sometimes offer build advice, and have carried people through vet dungeon pugs, but I'm also not going to randomly tell everyone about the basics of how to build.

alpha_synuclein

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Weird, got many people seem to think it is not doable with 4DD.
How about 4 arcanist ?
Or if it too difficult.
One of the DD can be DK.

Doable - in most cases yes.
Pleasant and effective - in most cases no.

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Any idea on how to upgrade the player base skill level ?

By focusing more on group play and learning how to play roles efficiently instead of insisting on 4DDs runs in places where it makes very little sense...

Desiato

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Any idea on how to upgrade the player base skill level ?

I find that when I queue into vet dlc pledges on weekends, I often encounter new and/or inexperienced players who need mentoring and are receptive to it. That's one way. It can be a bit of a pain to prog a dungeon when you just want keys, but it can be rewarding in other ways.

However, it's not even a drop in the bucket. Skill is irrelevant to most ESO players. That's why overland and normal content is trivially easy. It's mainly an ultra-casual game which is designed so that players don't have to learn mechanics if they don't want to. Anyone is basically guaranteed to have success in most content by "playing how they want." This kind of player generally has a completely different philosophy about gaming than those who play vet dlc dungeons, arenas and trials.