Permabanned for defending myself AGAINST hate speech

xylena_lazarow

Hi, my account was locked on 7/29 @ 6:57pm EST for 72 hours, which means it should have been unlocked on 8/1 @ 6:57pm. I am still locked out at 80+ hours now, please refer to ticket 240729-003929 for the original suspension (and appeal), and ticket 240802-001030 for the request to address the problem. I fully intended to follow policy, thank you for your time.

Update: I have been informed that the original 72-hour suspension was made in error, that it was supposed to be permanent. I apologize for pushing my satire over the edge, but I would like to make it clear that I was defending myself and other gay people against an individual who was dropping f-slurs in zone chat then doubling down. The temp ban I can accept, but a permaban for this is unjust. I have only ever stood against hate speech.

ZOS_CouchTato

@xylena_lazarow I just sent you a forum message regarding your tickets.

reazea

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Hi, my account was locked on 7/29 @ 6:57pm EST for 72 hours, which means it should have been unlocked on 8/1 @ 6:57pm. I am still locked out at 80+ hours now, please refer to ticket 240729-003929 for the original suspension (and appeal), and ticket 240802-001030 for the request to address the problem. I fully intended to follow policy, thank you for your time.

I've seen Xylena take a ton of grief in Cyrodiil, and on many more than a few occasions. Without getting into too much detail, some people really don't like being bested by someone they feel is inferior for, lets just say, highly inappropriate reasons. And they lash out as a result.

Loosing Xy will be a loss to the PvP community, and I'd ask ZOS to please review the chat logs in their entirety. I'm sure what the other players did was equally offensive and most likely much more offensive than anything Xy did.

RomanRex

Hate/Offensive speech violations go in both directions.

If someone says something offensive (to you) it’s best to say nothing and just report them.

Responding in kind will justifiably get both parties permanently banned.

RomanRex

i’m gay too. if someone is throwing the f word around in chat i report and ignore them. no skin off my back and they will be banned.

getting defensive or emotional just gives them what they wanted. (and gets you banned too)

xylena_lazarow

@RomanRex I'll obviously stay out of anything remotely political in the future.

I reflected at that person the hatred that has been shown to me throughout my life. I have grown tired of treating people like this with kid gloves, but of course this video game is not the time nor place. I apologize for my inappropriate comments and accept a temp ban, but a permaban is unjust.

Amottica

I feel for the OP for having to deal with toxic behavior.

However, I recommend that when dealing with toxicity and hate in the game, it is best to record and report. Responding can lead to behavior that is just as toxic and not permitted in the game and can be treated in the same manner. I am not suggesting this is what occurred in this instance, but just providing some caution for when we experience such discourse ourselves.

Araneae6537

Of course it is best to report and ignore, but we are all human, and sometimes it gets too much and we respond to things that we shouldn’t. The OP has admitted they made a mistake, but a permaban is really too much and not a just action for 1) a one time offense and 2) not being the instigator of toxicity.

RomanRex

I feel for OP, but also appreciate rules actually being enforced.

A public response to a troll can be just as offensive to someone else in the chat.

xylena_lazarow

RomanRex wrote: »

A public response to a troll can be just an offensive to someone else in the chat.

Enforcement does not seem consistent nor transparent. I have no prior bans.

derkaiserliche

Its often pretty sad and understandable that there are limits before someone start insulting back.

I called out a guy in area chat for scamming new players in a horrible way and it got me a temp ban just because i used a "bad word" when calling him out. I bet he didnt got any punishment for scamming people.

So as a result, i keep out of anything now that could get me triggered, even if it means not helping new guys getting scammed or whatever. At the end you would always risk a ban even for light arguments with a player.

xylena_lazarow

derkaiserliche wrote: »

I called out a guy in area chat for scamming new players in a horrible way and it got me a temp ban just because i used a "bad word" when calling him out. I bet he didnt got any punishment for scamming people

It's a microcosm of a larger cultural problem, where decades of "both sides" rhetoric has people seriously believing that the person striking back against hate, is just as "bad" as the person spewing hate in the first place, who inevitably uses excuses like "it's just words" or "I didn't mean it that way" to justify what they said, while the person fighting back is branded as "easily offended" by someone who is inside is very upset that slurs aren't as cool and funny as they think.

Elsonso

If you can appeal and convince ZOS that you were wrong, learned your lesson, and will never do it again… you might win the appeal. Depending on what you said to get banned, of course. Don’t give up quite yet.

Celas_Dranacea

Damn Xylena I’m very sorry the hate speech pushed you over the edge. It sounds like you made a mistake, but it’s understandable given that someone was attacking your identity. I have appreciated the presence that you add to the ESO community and hope your appeal is considered.

xylena_lazarow

Elsonso wrote: »

If you can appeal and convince ZOS that you were wrong, learned your lesson, and will never do it again… you might win the appeal. Depending on what you said to get banned, of course. Don’t give up quite yet.

It was the sort of mean satire along the lines of something like Always Sunny, a show that itself has banned episodes, even though they were clearly mocking bigotry, not indulging in it. But while I stand by my right to defend myself against bigots, I should be using the intended report system, not taking it into my own hands in zone chat, so I apologize for that. I will continue to stand against hate speech, but do so through the proper channels, and avoid political engagement.

Gabriyl

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Hi, my account was locked on 7/29 @ 6:57pm EST for 72 hours, which means it should have been unlocked on 8/1 @ 6:57pm. I am still locked out at 80+ hours now, please refer to ticket 240729-003929 for the original suspension (and appeal), and ticket 240802-001030 for the request to address the problem. I fully intended to follow policy, thank you for your time.

Update: I have been informed that the original 72-hour suspension was made in error, that it was supposed to be permanent. I apologize for pushing my satire over the edge, but I would like to make it clear that I was defending myself and other gay people against an individual who was dropping f-slurs in zone chat then doubling down. The temp ban I can accept, but a permaban for this is unjust. I have only ever stood against hate speech.

For what it's worth, I have seen this individual play the game.

I have seen this individual diffuse toxic communication in zone.

Xylene, you can play with me anytime and you have an open spot in GNC available to you at anytime.

Agrippa_Invisus

Punishing the victim for defending themselves against hate speech is the same as when a Principal suspends a student for punching their bully. You're just enabling even worse behavior and making it to where your game is unsafe for minority groups to be open about themselves.

This is disgusting and Xylena should be immediately unbanned.

TechMaybeHic

Hopefully there can be a reasonable review of what happened and past conduct considered. Xylena is an active, contributing member to the PvP community.

Sassyuke

A permanent ban for what was obviously a sardonic reply to hate speech is excessive. The reporter in question most certainly did not provide an objective context or their earlier posts. You can bet that the pvp community will be watching zone chat for subsequent vitriol of the reporter.

Ignoring and hoping it goes away feels like being complicit in the act. In my opinion it only enables the behaviour to continue as there are no consequences for their actions towards others. Nobody should be subject to hate speech in a video game, period as there are tools at your disposal to automatically action those infractions. The burden of proof should not be on Xylena in this case, either. This issue is important enough to justify the time spent combing through the chat logs.

Please reverse the ban. Xylena is a valued member of our community.

RomanRex

Discussing disciplinary actions is a violation in and of itself? At least I thought it was.

Appeal it and move on. Many people here agree with the ban while others don’t.

Copy @ZOS_CouchTato or @ZOS_Kevin to re-escalate it and then just live with the decision, good or bad.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

It's always fascinating when it comes to ZOS in game banning decisions there's never any context considered.
I've had friends warned for replying once to a stream of hate whispers (the player warned asked the hate whisperer to leave them alone), banned for tbagging once after being bagged multiple times by the player that reported them the same night (provable with VoDs), banned for quoting someone's chat message despite the original poster of said message not being banned.

I would say don't worry perma bans are almost never perma in ESO but it seems that they only ever get upheld for the players undeserving of them. Gl

BlackRaidho

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

It's always fascinating when it comes to ZOS in game banning decisions there's never any context considered.
I've had friends warned for replying once to a stream of hate whispers (the player warned asked the hate whisperer to leave them alone), banned for tbagging once after being bagged multiple times by the player that reported them the same night (provable with VoDs), banned for quoting someone's chat message despite the original poster of said message not being banned.

I would say don't worry perma bans are almost never perma in ESO but it seems that they only ever get upheld for the players undeserving of them. Gl

Weak with the strong strong with the weak.

Every single time.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

RomanRex wrote: »

Discussing disciplinary actions is a violation in and of itself? At least I thought it was.

Appeal it and move on. Many people here agree with the ban while others don’t.

Copy @ZOS_CouchTato or @ZOS_Kevin to re-escalate it and then just live with the decision, good or bad.

I believe that's only for forum bans as the ban system is independent of in game? I'm sure a mod can clarify.

RomanRex

“Discussing Disciplinary Actions: If you ever have questions or concerns about a disciplinary action or decision we have made on the ESO forums, or wish to appeal a forum warning or infraction you’ve received, we ask that you please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to do so (please specify that you are contacting about a forum-related inquiry or appeal). We are happy to discuss and review specific moderation-related actions with you, but we do not allow discussion of any moderation actions or decisions on our forums. If you have questions or concerns about an in-game disciplinary action, please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to ask about a suspension or ban, and any other support-related feedback. We cannot assist with in-game violations on the forums.”

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

RomanRex wrote: »

“Discussing Disciplinary Actions: If you ever have questions or concerns about a disciplinary action or decision we have made on the ESO forums, or wish to appeal a forum warning or infraction you’ve received, we ask that you please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to do so (please specify that you are contacting about a forum-related inquiry or appeal). We are happy to discuss and review specific moderation-related actions with you, but we do not allow discussion of any moderation actions or decisions on our forums. If you have questions or concerns about an in-game disciplinary action, please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to ask about a suspension or ban, and any other support-related feedback. We cannot assist with in-game violations on the forums.”

Yes so looks to me that its fine to discuss in game moderation here but they just cannot assist with them (which is to be expected). But not ok to discuss forum moderation.

Elsonso

Sassyuke wrote: »

A permanent ban for what was obviously a sardonic reply to hate speech is excessive. [snip]

Ignoring and hoping it goes away feels like being complicit in the act. In my opinion it only enables the behaviour to continue as there are no consequences for their actions towards others. Nobody should be subject to hate speech in a video game, period as there are tools at your disposal to automatically action those infractions.

Avoiding the discussion of this specific incident, we cannot know what someone did to get any disciplinary action based solely on forum admissions. We cannot know whether the “other party” was banned, warned, or no action taken based on anecdotal evidence, even if that party says what happened to them. People can say what they want in social media. Some of it is true, some false, and some in between.

I assume all in-game disciplinary actions are based on the facts and that the player deserves it, based on what they did.

However, everyone makes mistakes, ZOS included, so I also think that appeals can be successful in those cases. This is why I think that the player who just had a “moment” and made a mistake should get a review.

xylena_lazarow

@RomanRex I was informed that the policy is not to discuss specifics, the rest of this thread is fine, so I would like to continue to engage. In a real legal system, there are lawyers, courts, degrees of offenses, sentencing guidelines for judges, stand-your-ground self defense laws, etc. In this absence, rules need to be clear, consistent, and transparent. I do not feel this is the case right now.

Thank you all for the support. I hope we can all continue to work together for a more fair ban enforcement system.

Akinos

#FREEXYLENA

silentxthreat

Ive known xy for a long time and have never seen them do anything crazy or say anything crazy that would result in a ban. I have however seen the account in question never get actioned for extreme hate. wishing death, calling people the r or r word in zone chat. no amount of reports ever gets anything done. Something is really fishy here. can @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno please looking into this? We are missing someone who normally makes the game a better place to be to get away from life.

Araneae6537

RomanRex wrote: »

[snip]

I do not know Xylena, but support their reinstatement because I don’t think a permaban is fair, especially for a single instance where they were not the instigator. As they said, a temporary might be reasonable, but a permaban should be for repeated offenses or other actions that show bad intent and not a person who has made a mistake. Yes, that might allow some actually toxic people to stick around longer, but it sounds like they are anyway, perhaps because they know how to “weaponize” the report system, Idk, and better to give an undeserving person an extra chance than to permanently ban someone who just made a mistake. This would be my stance regardless of the person in question.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

Agreed 100%.

[edited to remove quote]

ClowdyAllDay

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

as i wasnt witness to what was said to whom and how i can only rely on this maxim, violence begets violence. You chose to behave as badly as those you complain about so therefor you are no better than them. If they get a permaban fronm zos then so do you. There's an appropriate way to report them without behaving as badly as the people you complain about. You chose to stoop to their level and received the same punishment as them presumably.

nothing to see here.

[edited to remove quote]