Vampire still needs to be reworked

fenn1539

personally i firmly stand in the camp that the increased regular ability cost and the complete loss of health regen needs to be removed and changed with personally here a basic concept for something i feel would suit the vampire race better and make vampire something people would ACTUALLY wanna play. firstly, i would fully change the stages passive to completely new pros and cons with firstly, the ability cost increase for regular abilites would be removed with the decrease in cost from vampire abilites would be kept. secondly, i would say that the fire weakness should be removed and instead changed to elongate the effects of dmg over time effects OR increase the effect (this is to partially offset the strength i would give vamps making them need to either play necro builds to reduce the dot dmg or to be warry of any dot dmg they come across.) of all dot dmg to reflect the notion that against a creature who regenerates, using attacks that leave a lingering damage over time to constatly eat away at their healed health is a standard to defeat them. third, the health regen nerf is going to be removed all together and replaced with a ramping flat weapon and spell dmg nerf to all non vampire abilites with lastly, i would also add a ramping boost to health regen which will make sense with the one ability i would desperately want changed.

now as for the changes to the primary ability i think should become a vamp mainstay but also another quasi nerf if they dont play smart with it being that the frenzy skill would become the first skill you earn as a vampire and would be changed from a ramping health cost in exchange for a flat weapon and spell dmg boost to granting a flat percentage dmg buff of perhaps something like 10% AND boosting the duration of all buffs and debuffs applied by specifically your abilites (regular and vampire) by 5 seconds with the cost would be that all abilites would now have a health cost as well equal to perhaps something from 25% to maybe even 75% of the abilites total cost on top of its normal cost which of course means you can lower this negative by lowering the abilties cost which with all normal abilites no longer having their cost inflated and in fact, the vampire abilites including this new frenzy rework all getting a decrease the higher you vampire stage means that you would be learning to channel your blood magic better to also increase the strength and longevity of your magics by enhancing it with the power of your own blood getting around a vampire normally being weak actually in normal magic (kinda spinning something similar to vampire the masquerades tremere but with normal magic still being a thing you can use by saying that vampires loose their connection the magicka of the world around them but gain the ability to more readily draw on the power within their own blood and take advantage of their bodies increased regenerative ability to ignore the cost of using their own lifeforce so recklessly)

all in all, this would push people to perhaps decide playing on the riskier side and having a health cost on all abilites or perhaps even maybe changing it so it makes ALL abilties costs require health AND perhaps to coutner balance this, while frenzy is active, all your weapon and spell damage scales with your hp at a perhaps 10% weaker rate than with magicka and stamina so its not a flat increase but also lets you max out your health and truly give into the blood mage theme and add some even better fun to the concept of playing such a risk reward way with perhaps one last effect of frenzy would be to grant all sources of lifesteal a 25% boost to help ensure you can still actually regain more health than you spend to cast abilites like repeating strikes or hungry scythe for example.

fedouva

Then vampires will be played even less))))))))))))))))) If and remake the vampire, then probably completely as a class, and as written earlier on the forum, hybrids are completely unplayable and will not be

fenn1539

fedouva wrote: »

Then vampires will be played even less))))))))))))))))) If and remake the vampire, then probably completely as a class, and as written earlier on the forum, hybrids are completely unplayable and will not be

uhhh mind maybe editing your comment to be somewhat more understandable? not to throw stones from glass houses as my own writing sucks and i literally failed english 11 and 12 but yea i only can kinda understand that you think my rework concept is bad and that if a rework ever happened, making vampire and maybe werewolf and any future similar hybrid/monster races would be better to be done as a class fully removing the old vamp and making it into a class pehraps still earned i would say through the getting bitten thing and going to the altar with it serving as a temporary class change until you go to a priest of arkay to cleanse yourself.

Wildberryjack

Vampires in legend get stronger when they feed, in this game they get weaker. Make it make sense. I'm not finding any advantage to being a vampire anymore so I'll be curing it on all my guys but my RPer.

LittlePinkDot

Wildberryjack wrote: »

Vampires in legend get stronger when they feed, in this game they get weaker. Make it make sense. I'm not finding any advantage to being a vampire anymore so I'll be curing it on all my guys but my RPer.

Look on the bright side. They'll all be less ugly now.

BixenteN7Akantor

I'm keeping vamp on my PvP char only because of the removal of sneak speed penalty passive, and very rarely use mist form to unstuck myself from Cyrodiil's Geometry. I still see quite a lot of people using all 6 vamp skills though. The passives are the problem imo.
PS: I tend to babysit fellow werewolves with heals and buffs when I see them, It's already hard as it is for them :d

CameraBeardThePirate

Wildberryjack wrote: »

Vampires in legend get stronger when they feed, in this game they get weaker. Make it make sense. I'm not finding any advantage to being a vampire anymore so I'll be curing it on all my guys but my RPer.

Actually in most Elder Scrolls games, you are stronger when blood starved. The specifics vary a little game to game, but in both Oblivion and Skyrim, you were stronger when blood starved but had more severe weaknesses to fire, while in Morrowind, there was no stage mechanic at all, and you only fed to regain health.

KaironBlackbard

I think they should update or alter 2 or 3 passives.
A) Undeath: If it remains stage 3, then add the effect of the old version when they reach Stage 4 to help with their non existent health regen.
B: Swap Undeath and Unnatural Movement, making UM stage 3 and Ud stage 4. Preferably with the previous version of Undeath.
C) Reduce the health recovery penalties of vampirism. Skyrim's stages were 15% per stage capping at 60% at stage 4. If they want to have it remain as is for the most part, then stage 4 shouldn't reduce past 90%. Especially now that undeath has no effect whatsoever. Not like it ever had any effect in the first place.
They nerfed undeath because about 5 players were unkillable due to some exploit no one else can find.
Honestly they should have patched the exploit or banned those exploiters instead of nerfing this useless ability.

Recap
A) Undeath as stage 3, when hit stage 4 use the old version, double potency of the effect.
B: Swap stage requirements of Unnatural Movement and Undeath, and bring back its old potency.
C) Reduce stage 4 health recovery penalty.

malistorr

I think they should have lessened the penalties to being vamp since they reduced the benefit of stage 3.

KaironBlackbard

Unnatural Movement Rework
Rather than time based, what about stacks based?
As a stage 4 (stage 3 if swapped with undeath), sprint cost is cheaper (R1 25%, R2 50%). While sprinting, gain a stack of unnatural movement each second. When not sprinting, lose one stack per second. At max stacks, you turn invisible. Rank 1 max stacks 6, rank 2 max stacks 3.
Makes it easier to re-enter invis if you had a hiccup, such as stubbed your toe on a rock or something, or fell down the stairs.

Extra benefit: Other sources of invisibility also grant max stacks of unnatural movement.
Invis potions, sithis set, NB cloak, Shadowstrike CP, etc.

Revealing Effects might remove and prevent the gain of stacks of unnatural movement while revealed.

playnox

Changes for Undead completely removes the need of Vamp in PVP. with all the debuffs only up to 7% damage mitigation is a joke... going to remove it from most of my chars.
And again it proves - how Combat team (or that one guy who makes these changes) don't give a flying about his job or anything honestly.

StarOfElyon

I'll throw my ideas out there.

These are suggestions to improve Vampirism. The changes are in italics:

Rather than revert the changes to the Undeath passive, I believe it would be better to increase the power of Vampires (while being careful not to passively boost the power of the Nightblade class).

PASSIVES:
Strike from the Shadows: When you leave Mist Form or activate Unnatural Movement your Weapon and Spell Damage is increased by 300 for 6 seconds.

SKILLS:
Vampiric Drain: Siphon away your enemies' vitality, dealing 870 Magic Damage and healing you for 25% of your missing Health every 1 second for 3 seconds. Activating this ability grants you Major Protection and Major Berserk for 10 seconds.

Mesmerize: Subdue enemies in front of you with your baleful gaze, stunning them for 5 seconds if they are facing your direction. This stun cannot be blocked.
- Hypnosis: Subdue enemies around you with your baleful gaze, stunning them for 5 seconds. This stun cannot be blocked. Enemies are no longer required to be facing your direction.

Mist Form: Disperse into a dark mist, causing the next 3 projectiles to deal no damage to you for 1 second while you dash forward and reappear at your target location after a short duration. Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka. Activating the skill removes snares and immobilizations.

I think that will make Vampirism worth it for those who actually want to play as a Vampire.

Vaqual

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I'll throw my ideas out there.

These are suggestions to improve Vampirism. The changes are in italics:

Rather than revert the changes to the Undeath passive, I believe it would be better to increase the power of Vampires (while being careful not to passively boost the power of the Nightblade class).

PASSIVES:
Strike from the Shadows: When you leave Mist Form or activate Unnatural Movement your Weapon and Spell Damage is increased by 300 for 6 seconds.

SKILLS:
Vampiric Drain: Siphon away your enemies' vitality, dealing 870 Magic Damage and healing you for 25% of your missing Health every 1 second for 3 seconds. Activating this ability grants you Major Protection and Major Berserk for 10 seconds.

Mesmerize: Subdue enemies in front of you with your baleful gaze, stunning them for 5 seconds if they are facing your direction. This stun cannot be blocked.
- Hypnosis: Subdue enemies around you with your baleful gaze, stunning them for 5 seconds. This stun cannot be blocked. Enemies are no longer required to be facing your direction.

Mist Form: Disperse into a dark mist, causing the next 3 projectiles to deal no damage to you for 1 second while you dash forward and reappear at your target location after a short duration. Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka. Activating the skill removes snares and immobilizations.

I think that will make Vampirism worth it for those who actually want to play as a Vampire.

Damn, I would love it if Mist Form did that.

YandereGirlfriend

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I'll throw my ideas out there.

These are suggestions to improve Vampirism. The changes are in italics:

Rather than revert the changes to the Undeath passive, I believe it would be better to increase the power of Vampires (while being careful not to passively boost the power of the Nightblade class).

PASSIVES:
Strike from the Shadows: When you leave Mist Form or activate Unnatural Movement your Weapon and Spell Damage is increased by 300 for 6 seconds.

SKILLS:
Vampiric Drain: Siphon away your enemies' vitality, dealing 870 Magic Damage and healing you for 25% of your missing Health every 1 second for 3 seconds. Activating this ability grants you Major Protection and Major Berserk for 10 seconds.

Mesmerize: Subdue enemies in front of you with your baleful gaze, stunning them for 5 seconds if they are facing your direction. This stun cannot be blocked.
- Hypnosis: Subdue enemies around you with your baleful gaze, stunning them for 5 seconds. This stun cannot be blocked. Enemies are no longer required to be facing your direction.

Mist Form: Disperse into a dark mist, causing the next 3 projectiles to deal no damage to you for 1 second while you dash forward and reappear at your target location after a short duration. Casting again within 4 seconds costs 33% more Magicka. Activating the skill removes snares and immobilizations.

I think that will make Vampirism worth it for those who actually want to play as a Vampire.

These are great.

I think that people who make vampires generally want to do vampire-like things and adding some of that lost power back into the actual class abilities is very good compensation and overall a satisfying solution to the problem.

Vampire suffered for way too long under OP passives that everyone took simply to min/max effectively.

Erickson9610

Since Charm is an easy-to-source effect now, I think it's thematically appropriate to replace the stun of one of Mesmerize's morphs (Hypnosis or Stupefy) with it. That'd be a pain to deal with in PvP, but it's pretty much exactly what all Wardens with their Class Mastery script are doing right now.

Also, isn't it a bit strange that all of Vampire's abilities deal Magic Damage? I know Overcharged (the Magic Damage status effect) afflicts enemies with Minor Magickasteal, but how would people feel if Vampire could source the Minor Lifesteal debuff and also have some Bleed Damage attacks to be thematic?

I'm not super familiar with the Vampire PvE/PvP playstyles, but I'd assume that being able to source Charm, Lifesteal, and Bleed from the skill line would make it more appealing.

KaironBlackbard

Minor Lifesteal:
Undertaker set (Elsweyr)
Restoration Staff ability
Blood Fount (Undaunted)
It's already universally easy to source.

Vaqual

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

Minor Lifesteal:
Undertaker set (Elsweyr)
Restoration Staff ability
Blood Fount (Undaunted)
It's already universally easy to source.

The opportunity cost for each of those is huge tho (set lock/weapon lock/pure support ability). It makes sense, since minor lifesteal is a potent group buff, while for solo it would be quite balanced. It is a bit of a pickle in terms of balancing, since it would be devaluing the existing sources to make it available on any of the current vamp abilities. Thematically it is nice to have, but I am a bit on the fence about it.

YandereGirlfriend

Vaqual wrote: »

KaironBlackbard wrote: »

Minor Lifesteal:
Undertaker set (Elsweyr)
Restoration Staff ability
Blood Fount (Undaunted)
It's already universally easy to source.

The opportunity cost for each of those is huge tho (set lock/weapon lock/pure support ability). It makes sense, since minor lifesteal is a potent group buff, while for solo it would be quite balanced. It is a bit of a pickle in terms of balancing, since it would be devaluing the existing sources to make it available on any of the current vamp abilities. Thematically it is nice to have, but I am a bit on the fence about it.

Blood Fountain will always have a strong use case in PvP, so no need to worry about.

I think that Undertaker is simply a weak set no matter how you slice it. Same with the Resto Staff ability.

KaironBlackbard

I used to main undertaker. Still do on some builds. It's most powerful on DoT and Area builds. Builds where you are constantly damaging everyone to apply the 7 seconds of Minor Lifesteal from Undertaker.
Undertaker+Werewolf can be powerful. Also gives WW another source of healing just for damaging enemies. Pair that with infectious claws and everything is now your healing source.
Also turns Caltrops and similar abilities into massive puddles of healing capability, damaging everyone, applying minor lifesteal to them all, and then further damaging every second heals you. Or does caltrops hit once every 2 seconds? Then once every 2 seconds you heal for 600*number of enemies in caltrops.
It can be powerful when paired with certain skill sets or abilities.

Although, for non-WW, I do think the fount is more powerful. I traded undertaker for the fount on my tank, more reliably applying lifesteal. He's not very good at damage uptime, so the fount is better for him.
WW can't access fount or resto, so their only access is Undertaker.
Although, another less powerful set is Hist Whisperer, healing 300 on light attacks and double on fully charged heavy attacks, also granting stam and mag. Vs Undertaker's 600 per second per enemy.
Lest someone else has the fount.

Undertaker: any source of damage applies 7 seconds of Minor Lifesteal
Fount: As long as they are within the radius, they are afflicted with minor lifesteal
Resto: Free To Cast ability that applies 30 seconds of Minor Lifesteal. Morph A gives allies Minor Expedition for hitting afflicted targets (useless for Nightblades (Concealed Weapon) or Jailbreaker users), Morph B afflicts 30 seconds of Minor Magickasteal.

I honestly wouldn't mind a bleed ability that applies minor lifesteal within the Vampire kit.
Or better yet, no we already said they suffer from absurd passives... I was gonna suggest a passive similar to NB's Siphoning Strikes, healing them when they deal damage, similar to as if every enemy is afflicted with minor lifesteal.
Hmm.... Perhaps their abilities could automatically consider all enemies as under minor lifesteal, healing them when they deal damage with vampire abilities? That way it's specifically within the vampire kit and not universally usable for all their abilities.

LikaShade

I think vampire is perfect as is.

In fact, if they change anything, it should be made even more miserable during the day, but they were generous so we don't really take constant sunlight damage. Lack of regen is a fair tradeoff.

Powers are also fine. You don't want them to be OP or meta, because you don't want everyone being a vampire. Should be slightly niche for roleplaying purposes - as it is.

KaironBlackbard

Skyrim's was better. The regen penalty was less potent, but applied to all resources, not just health. 15% per stage, capping at 60% at stage 4. And only took effect in daylight. While inside a building or cave, or out at night, there was no penalty.
I'd say we have it rougher in ESO.