Why does ESO favor magicka specs so much?

xylena_lazarow

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Magicka Warden and Magicka Nightblade

While most of the skills cost mag, there's no resource based distinction in playstyle on anything but Sorc.

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Magicka Warden and Magicka Nightblade

While most of the skills cost mag, there's no resource based distinction in playstyle on anything but Sorc.

I'd argue. I don't do 64 HP on all characters, I often do have pretty high resource bars just because I can afford to push damage higher and have longer uptime on esoterical greaves.

Although I wish resource bars had more impact, outside of going for extremes to be able to cast wards.
5k resources compete with 6k health, but 500 wd scales much better and buffs proc sets, while healing sets are mostly useless and will not offset your lack of HP.

Durham

It's not magicka vs stamina currently. It's that Range is so much easier to parse with than Melee. This is especially true in PVP. Melee has been regulated to tower humping and fighting around rocks. Destro is overperforming because of the status effect changes and 30000000000-sec debuff that procs status effects and costs you nothing! The damage difference between melee and range is unbalanced currently

Remember melee is an ability that can only do damage within 7m. In PVP and PVE you have ranged abilities that do slightly less damage. Keep in mind with proc sets range does it better. Also keep in mind that range can hit you for over 30m+!

This is why you see more magicka right now!

Bushido2513

ToRelax wrote: »

Why complain about magicka vs stamina options with no magicka or stamina builds?

Because we have skills and themes around stamina that require a stamina pool. The reason you listed is why we have the complaint.

So if all skills could use either resource for their cost that would be one thing. As it stands if I want to use all stam skills I have to balance for better magic skills that I'll still want to use on that same build.

Recovery right now is in almost too good of a place but even still you're going to have trouble spamming a skill that isn't in using your main pool

So the complaint would be why have stam skills as an option if they aren't going to collectively be as good as mag options. I played stamsorc for a long time so I can very much relate to sub par stam weapon skills and even worse stam class skills.

It's about competitive build diversity options.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

StaticWave wrote: »

notReclaimer wrote: »

Have you tried playing something other than sorcerer

have you tried playing something other than warden?

Actually I have. In ten years I've played both a stamina and magic version of every class. Most magic using classes are good to great depending on the exact build. Most stamina versions are tanks of varying degree, except the bow/dual weld NB or Sorc. Those can still be fun to play in PvE. My conclusion is that the ESO devs like magic more.

Bushido2513

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

notReclaimer wrote: »

Have you tried playing something other than sorcerer

have you tried playing something other than warden?

Actually I have. In ten years I've played both a stamina and magic version of every class. Most magic using classes are good to great depending on the exact build. Most stamina versions are tanks of varying degree, except the bow/dual weld NB or Sorc. Those can still be fun to play in PvE. My conclusion is that the ESO devs like magic more.

Magic is easier to sell and more relatable for a game like this. Sure weapon skills are great but thematically you really think of casting things or using magic to do XYZ . I could see not working on stamina versions of things other than weapon skills because what does that even mean?

Does a warden cast stam birds or shalks because he's just strong enough to?

divnyi

Bushido2513 wrote: »

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

notReclaimer wrote: »

Have you tried playing something other than sorcerer

have you tried playing something other than warden?

Actually I have. In ten years I've played both a stamina and magic version of every class. Most magic using classes are good to great depending on the exact build. Most stamina versions are tanks of varying degree, except the bow/dual weld NB or Sorc. Those can still be fun to play in PvE. My conclusion is that the ESO devs like magic more.

Magic is easier to sell and more relatable for a game like this. Sure weapon skills are great but thematically you really think of casting things or using magic to do XYZ . I could see not working on stamina versions of things other than weapon skills because what does that even mean?

Does a warden cast stam birds or shalks because he's just strong enough to?

And I see that as a design problem of this game.
If you think that pure fighter builds aren't desired by the players, then explain STR UNGA BUNGA builds obsession in Elden Ring.

Building pure non-magical character in ESO is not possible, unless you gimp yourself immeasurably.

Bushido2513

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

notReclaimer wrote: »

Have you tried playing something other than sorcerer

have you tried playing something other than warden?

Actually I have. In ten years I've played both a stamina and magic version of every class. Most magic using classes are good to great depending on the exact build. Most stamina versions are tanks of varying degree, except the bow/dual weld NB or Sorc. Those can still be fun to play in PvE. My conclusion is that the ESO devs like magic more.

Magic is easier to sell and more relatable for a game like this. Sure weapon skills are great but thematically you really think of casting things or using magic to do XYZ . I could see not working on stamina versions of things other than weapon skills because what does that even mean?

Does a warden cast stam birds or shalks because he's just strong enough to?

And I see that as a design problem of this game.
If you think that pure fighter builds aren't desired by the players, then explain STR UNGA BUNGA builds obsession in Elden Ring.

Building pure non-magical character in ESO is not possible, unless you gimp yourself immeasurably.

Design problems, goals, limitations, etc. I mean the game could have martial arts and samurai in it if they wanted but there's only so many developments dollars and what works in pvp has to work in pve and be fun at the same time.

I don't think ESO hates stam, I think magic is just easier to develop for and sell to the majority.

StaticWave

These are actually decent stamina skills for each class:

Warden: None
NB: Powered Extraction, Surprised Attack
DK: Venom Claw
Sorc: Hurricane, Crystal Weapon, Bound Armaments
Plar: Biting Jabs, PoTL, Rune Focus, Javelin
Arcanist: Tentacles
Necro: Blighted Blastbones

Warden practically has no decent stamina skills. Almost all of its kit is magicka based, and if you play stam Warden you’re gonna need to use weapon skills.

DK has Molten Whip, Fossilize, and FoO, which are magicka skills. Stam DK is pretty much non existent at this point.

Stam Sorc does have some decent stamina skills, but bar space issue doesn’t let it have an efficient setup.

NB is basically 90% mag now. Surprised Attack can’t really match Concealed in terms of raw damage, and Merciless Resolve costs mag and deals Magic damage.

Stam Plar has some decent stam skills, but what it lacks is survivability like mag Plar

Stam Arc is basically just slotting 4 procs lol.

Stam Cro has the same issue as Warden. It either slots 4 procs or uses Dizzying Swing. Other playstyles don’t work unfortunately.

With hybridization, stamina specs benefited from going more mag. That speaks a lot lol. As a hybrid spec you’re basically leaning more towards mag than stam. Like for example on my hybrid Sorc, the only 3 stam skills I have are Vigor, Hurricane, and a spammable. Everything else is mag. On hybrid Warden only Vigor is stam. Everything else is mag. On hybrid NB only Drain Power and Vigor are stam. On hybrid DK only Vigor is stam. You get the point.

So is it stamina benefitting, or is it magicka being so good that they don’t really need much?

LittlePinkDot

StaticWave wrote: »

The majority of the best skills in the game all cost magicka. Even the best scribing skills, Contingency and Wield Soul, all cost magicka. Every class I build, even if hybrid, feels like I have to spec more towards mag than stam.

Can ZOS do something about this?

My Sundering soul wield costs stamina. You just have to scribe the right damage type to it.

I'm using it on my altmer stamsorc. And the new Hardened ward has helped immensely now that I put more points into HP.
You can still use defensive Magicka skills on a stamina character.

Pair sundering soul wield with whirling blades or crystal weapon with Diamonds Victory set and it's like NMA without the penalty.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

With hybridization, stamina specs benefited from going more mag.

All the stam playstyles absorbed the mag burst heals, shields, nukes, and utilities. All the mag playstyles absorbed Vigor, med armor, roll spam, and wep executes. Builds end up running more total mag skills and those skills are more expensive, so they usually lean into the blue pool, but playstyles have congealed into hybrids for everything but Sorcs.

LittlePinkDot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

With hybridization, stamina specs benefited from going more mag.

All the stam playstyles absorbed the mag burst heals, shields, nukes, and utilities. All the mag playstyles absorbed Vigor, med armor, roll spam, and wep executes. Builds end up running more total mag skills and those skills are more expensive, so they usually lean into the blue pool, but playstyles have congealed into hybrids for everything but Sorcs.

Why do you think not sorcs?

xylena_lazarow

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Why do you think not sorcs?

Hardened Ward scaling huge with max mag ends up uniquely defining the MagSorc playstyle. Any 64stam to 64hp Sorc is going to lean more into StamSorc style Vigor, roll spam, dot powered Surge hots, and movement speed.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

With hybridization, stamina specs benefited from going more mag.

All the stam playstyles absorbed the mag burst heals, shields, nukes, and utilities. All the mag playstyles absorbed Vigor, med armor, roll spam, and wep executes. Builds end up running more total mag skills and those skills are more expensive, so they usually lean into the blue pool, but playstyles have congealed into hybrids for everything but Sorcs.

The biggest issue I have right now is you can be a 100% magicka build and you will still do better than a 100% stamina build due to this hybridization of stats.

For example, a hybrid DK can drop Vigor and slot Rapid Regen and still do better than a stamDK. Rally can't compete with Coag in terms of healing power, and Dizzy + Venom Claw + Noxious can't really compete with FoO + Molten + Fossilize.

Stam Warden will have to spend 1 extra bar slot because the stam morph of Deep Fissure doesn't apply Major + Minor Breach, and the stam burst heal spammable is not as good as Polar Wind or Artic Blast.

I can go on and on but that's basically what happens right now. You cannot play a pure stam build anymore in this meta, but you can 100% play a pure mag build and still be competitive vs hybrid builds. This is all because there aren't as many good stamina skills as there are magicka skills. Why does Rally require 10 seconds of build up to have the same tooltip as Healthy Offering? Why are the majority of class skills mag based? I don't get it lol

Turtle_Bot

It is purely down to issues with Hybridizing what was originally designed to be a non-hybrid game.

Simple as that.

Pots (and the minor crit chance on NB/sorc) have been the obvious sore spots for this issue for ages now, but everything else has had issues because of this too, just more subtle.

Arcanist has been a good step forward for this, showing that it can be done (with skills scaling on the higher/lower max resource) and as such, it would be nice to see something similar done for all classes/abilities.

But this has also highlighted the other issue with hybridizing everything, that being things like design philosophies when creating skills, due to things like core combat mechanics (dodge/sprint/block) that still only costs stam (outside of 1 mythic and ice staff).

That issue being the built in reduced cost and raw increased base damage of stamina skills to make up for their "lack of utility". By giving stamina skills the same utility as the magicka skills without removing that reduced cost/increased damage, they simply outperform their mag equivalents. We see this with Arcanist where (for PvE) stamarc is just objectively stronger and easier to play than magarc because stamarc gets all the utility of the mag skills while keeping the higher raw dps and reduced cost of the skills being stamina.

There's no real way to fix this issue without a game-wide overhaul to generically have everything (including core combat functions) scale off the max stat of the players choosing. Even then, every single ability in the game would have to be completely rebalanced/redesigned because players would be able to select stamina cost for crushing shock and have it get stams reduced cost and increased damage while keeping the utility that ability provides due to being originally designed as a magicka ability.

Scribing is going some way to fixing this I guess, but the issue is that ZOS was caught between a rock and a hard place with scribing. If they make the skills too strong, the chapter becomes "pay to win" since it was technically part of the chapter and not base game, if they make the skills too weak, they're not worth using at all. ZOS would basically have to do the "scibing parse" over every single skill, gear set and even core combat mechanics in the game to balance skills properly for a hybridized game and that is something I just don't see happening, at least not within 1-2 patches, since it would basically be a complete rewrite/redesign of the code.

Bushido2513

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

It is purely down to issues with Hybridizing what was originally designed to be a non-hybrid game.

Simple as that.

Pots (and the minor crit chance on NB/sorc) have been the obvious sore spots for this issue for ages now, but everything else has had issues because of this too, just more subtle.

Arcanist has been a good step forward for this, showing that it can be done (with skills scaling on the higher/lower max resource) and as such, it would be nice to see something similar done for all classes/abilities.

But this has also highlighted the other issue with hybridizing everything, that being things like design philosophies when creating skills, due to things like core combat mechanics (dodge/sprint/block) that still only costs stam (outside of 1 mythic and ice staff).

That issue being the built in reduced cost and raw increased base damage of stamina skills to make up for their "lack of utility". By giving stamina skills the same utility as the magicka skills without removing that reduced cost/increased damage, they simply outperform their mag equivalents. We see this with Arcanist where (for PvE) stamarc is just objectively stronger and easier to play than magarc because stamarc gets all the utility of the mag skills while keeping the higher raw dps and reduced cost of the skills being stamina.

There's no real way to fix this issue without a game-wide overhaul to generically have everything (including core combat functions) scale off the max stat of the players choosing. Even then, every single ability in the game would have to be completely rebalanced/redesigned because players would be able to select stamina cost for crushing shock and have it get stams reduced cost and increased damage while keeping the utility that ability provides due to being originally designed as a magicka ability.

Scribing is going some way to fixing this I guess, but the issue is that ZOS was caught between a rock and a hard place with scribing. If they make the skills too strong, the chapter becomes "pay to win" since it was technically part of the chapter and not base game, if they make the skills too weak, they're not worth using at all. ZOS would basically have to do the "scibing parse" over every single skill, gear set and even core combat mechanics in the game to balance skills properly for a hybridized game and that is something I just don't see happening, at least not within 1-2 patches, since it would basically be a complete rewrite/redesign of the code.

A rewrite is needed in more ways then one that's for sure but yeah I think we're just so far beyond fixing this unless they for some odd reason stop spending so much time selling the game vs fixing the game. I mean they do small updates on old things but at this rate we'd be years away from anything significant.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

You cannot play a pure stam build anymore... Why are the majority of class skills mag based? I don't get it lol

The mag leaning hybrid meta we have now is much closer to the game's original design. The mag/stam split was artificially forced in order to fit the CP system when that launched, shockingly they never got around to polishing the stam specs, and now the green or blue color doesn't even make a difference. My recent builds for melee DK, NB, and Warden all play like stam melee with Vigor and med armor dodge spam, but probably spend more mag and use more mag skills.

ToRelax

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Why complain about magicka vs stamina options with no magicka or stamina builds?

Because we have skills and themes around stamina that require a stamina pool. The reason you listed is why we have the complaint.

So if all skills could use either resource for their cost that would be one thing. As it stands if I want to use all stam skills I have to balance for better magic skills that I'll still want to use on that same build.

Recovery right now is in almost too good of a place but even still you're going to have trouble spamming a skill that isn't in using your main pool

So the complaint would be why have stam skills as an option if they aren't going to collectively be as good as mag options. I played stamsorc for a long time so I can very much relate to sub par stam weapon skills and even worse stam class skills.

It's about competitive build diversity options.

I intentionally use stamina spammables because most of my skills cost magicka. What does it matter whether the projectiles I shoot with my magic staff use the green or blue resource? There's no difference anymore.
Stam and magicka in their current state are meaningless legacy. If someone insists on using just one or the other, that's them shooting themself in the foot without defining their character theme any better.

xylena_lazarow

ToRelax wrote: »

What does it matter whether the projectiles I shoot with my magic staff use the green or blue resource? There's no difference anymore. Stam and magicka in their current state are meaningless legacy. If someone insists on using just one or the other, that's them shooting themself in the foot without defining their character theme any better.

Right? Ah yes I'll have you know my Arcanist totally uses brute physical strength to fire lasers from a book.

MEBengalsFan2001

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Best class right now = Magicka Sorcerer (back on its throne after a couple of years hiatus)

The next best two are Magicka Warden and Magicka Nightblade. They can be put either way around based on your biases.
Stamina Warden isn't too far away from Magicka in fairness but the spammable difference between Blood For Blood (BfB) and Dizzy Swing is night and day. BfB hits harder, has no cast time, guaranteed haemorrhaging and no primary resource cost.
Stamden pretty much has to rely on a sustain set. Also you would have to drop execute to fit in contingency. Which means you rely on sucky Dizzy Swing even more.

Stamina Nightblade is not miles away from Magicka either. But the spammable is 10-20% weaker, and the class has a passive 8% Magicka bonus which means based purely on stats, going max Magicka will always be more damage even with Surprise Attack.

DK is basically always hybrid. Sure you can change between Noxious and Engulfing but Noxious doesn't matter in Corrosive which is the classest strongest ultimate whereas Engulfing would buff your Flames of Oblivion, Whip and burning Procs further.

Templar, ranged is superior and typically see Magicka versions with Crushing Shock/Elemental Weapon. If you go melee imo Stamina is better.

Funny thing is that Templar skills used as the meta is available to everyone rather easily too. NB, Sorc, Arcanist all use class skills. Warden it’s 50/50. Lately I even gave up breath of life/honor the dead for the Templar as scribing skills overall are better. I have three Templars skills. Ruin, extended rituals and living dark. Depending upon my build I may use explosive charge and puncture sweep but usually I am using weapon and scribing skills.

I tried my old deadly and war maiden build and its damage even with 13k pen, 7k dmg, and 30% crit was worse than what I get just using frag on the sorc that has lower stats.

Bushido2513

ToRelax wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Why complain about magicka vs stamina options with no magicka or stamina builds?

Because we have skills and themes around stamina that require a stamina pool. The reason you listed is why we have the complaint.

So if all skills could use either resource for their cost that would be one thing. As it stands if I want to use all stam skills I have to balance for better magic skills that I'll still want to use on that same build.

Recovery right now is in almost too good of a place but even still you're going to have trouble spamming a skill that isn't in using your main pool

So the complaint would be why have stam skills as an option if they aren't going to collectively be as good as mag options. I played stamsorc for a long time so I can very much relate to sub par stam weapon skills and even worse stam class skills.

It's about competitive build diversity options.

I intentionally use stamina spammables because most of my skills cost magicka. What does it matter whether the projectiles I shoot with my magic staff use the green or blue resource? There's no difference anymore.
Stam and magicka in their current state are meaningless legacy. If someone insists on using just one or the other, that's them shooting themself in the foot without defining their character theme any better.

There's playable and there's immersion. Years ago I read vigor because I was curious how you could use strength to heal and I was like ok well at least they wrote it in a way that sounds like you're doing that thing where you yell and summon inner strength.

Now we just do stuff with stam for whatever reason and the only difference is usually physical damage.

I mean it seems like just weapon skills and core combat should use stam and everything else should just be some magical thing you've learned.

And magic should have the upper hand at range and physical should be more durable and hit harder up close.

This is all general lore but I'm just saying the current stam skills including weapons just don't have a balanced approach when it comes to immersion.

Stafford197

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Why complain about magicka vs stamina options with no magicka or stamina builds?

Because we have skills and themes around stamina that require a stamina pool. The reason you listed is why we have the complaint.

So if all skills could use either resource for their cost that would be one thing. As it stands if I want to use all stam skills I have to balance for better magic skills that I'll still want to use on that same build.

Recovery right now is in almost too good of a place but even still you're going to have trouble spamming a skill that isn't in using your main pool

So the complaint would be why have stam skills as an option if they aren't going to collectively be as good as mag options. I played stamsorc for a long time so I can very much relate to sub par stam weapon skills and even worse stam class skills.

It's about competitive build diversity options.

I intentionally use stamina spammables because most of my skills cost magicka. What does it matter whether the projectiles I shoot with my magic staff use the green or blue resource? There's no difference anymore.
Stam and magicka in their current state are meaningless legacy. If someone insists on using just one or the other, that's them shooting themself in the foot without defining their character theme any better.

There's playable and there's immersion. Years ago I read vigor because I was curious how you could use strength to heal and I was like ok well at least they wrote it in a way that sounds like you're doing that thing where you yell and summon inner strength.

Now we just do stuff with stam for whatever reason and the only difference is usually physical damage.

I mean it seems like just weapon skills and core combat should use stam and everything else should just be some magical thing you've learned.

And magic should have the upper hand at range and physical should be more durable and hit harder up close.

This is all general lore but I'm just saying the current stam skills including weapons just don't have a balanced approach when it comes to immersion.

Totally agree!

ESO has had many Combat Leads take the reins overtime, each with differing visions for combat.

This is why we have gone through so many drastic changes.
• Dynamic Ultimate Gen removal
• Spellcrafting never launching
• AoE Caps
• Proc Set meta introduction
• 0.5 second immobilization on target when you gap close onto them
• 20 second DoTs
• Greatly shifting damage/healing values for many abilities
• Shields inheriting resistances but taking crit damage, to function exactly like normal Health
• Stam morphs being added to Magical Abilities
• Focus on Mag vs Stam specs, and then a Focus into Hybrids but not really since Magical abilities can cost Stamina
• Cast time on Ultimates

……to name a few.

In the end, things have gotten really messy. But most importantly as you mentioned, it’s not immersive at all. It’s not appealing in a lot of ways and has turned Magicka vs Stamina into two resource bars which can do all the same things. In the past people used to joke about this happening whenever bad changes occurred.

Alchimiste1

notReclaimer wrote: »

Have you tried playing something other than sorcerer

Lenny, have you even played something stamina ?

ClowdyAllDay

I have a number of healers using 2h and dw. Much more fun and interesting to play. Sure I have the stave builds too but it as fun.

Bushido2513

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

I have a number of healers using 2h and dw. Much more fun and interesting to play. Sure I have the stave builds too but it as fun.

If I didn't know this was possibly a real thing I'd say quit joking no fantasy game should work like this yet here we are.

Bushido2513

I know this isn't a 1 to 1 thing but take a sorc and put on two max mag sets then take a sorc and put on two max stam sets, the two I think that are even available then see how playable they are. Spoiler alert the max stam build is highly underwhelming.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I know this isn't a 1 to 1 thing but take a sorc and put on two max mag sets then take a sorc and put on two max stam sets, the two I think that are even available then see how playable they are. Spoiler alert the max stam build is highly underwhelming.

Hardened Ward scaling with max mag is the only significant max stat pool payoff. There's no good payoff for stacking max mag or stam anywhere else. Resource pool still doesn't really determine playstyle though. You can stack max stam on a Sorc, slot double lightning staves with ranged stam cost spammables, and it'll play similar to MagSorc.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I know this isn't a 1 to 1 thing but take a sorc and put on two max mag sets then take a sorc and put on two max stam sets, the two I think that are even available then see how playable they are. Spoiler alert the max stam build is highly underwhelming.

Hardened Ward scaling with max mag is the only significant max stat pool payoff. There's no good payoff for stacking max mag or stam anywhere else. Resource pool still doesn't really determine playstyle though. You can stack max stam on a Sorc, slot double lightning staves with ranged stam cost spammables, and it'll play similar to MagSorc.

So I'm just guessing here / sort of remembering so I admit I could be wrong but your max mag spamable tooltip is close to your stam melee spamable tooltip. I can't get on build editor at the moment.

This may be also that I'm better on magsorc currently but even without the shield I'll just have the advantage over a max stam build because my skills are more suited for a combo and the tooltips for a max stam build are lackluster.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You cannot play a pure stam build anymore... Why are the majority of class skills mag based? I don't get it lol

The mag leaning hybrid meta we have now is much closer to the game's original design. The mag/stam split was artificially forced in order to fit the CP system when that launched, shockingly they never got around to polishing the stam specs, and now the green or blue color doesn't even make a difference. My recent builds for melee DK, NB, and Warden all play like stam melee with Vigor and med armor dodge spam, but probably spend more mag and use more mag skills.

Which makes the game pretty boring. Hybrid was supposed to create a new path for theory-crafting, not become the obvious option. They should have done hybrid like how they did scribing - optional and fun for new builds, but not too strong that it becomes mandatory to slot scribe abilities over original ones.

divnyi

StaticWave wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

You cannot play a pure stam build anymore... Why are the majority of class skills mag based? I don't get it lol

The mag leaning hybrid meta we have now is much closer to the game's original design. The mag/stam split was artificially forced in order to fit the CP system when that launched, shockingly they never got around to polishing the stam specs, and now the green or blue color doesn't even make a difference. My recent builds for melee DK, NB, and Warden all play like stam melee with Vigor and med armor dodge spam, but probably spend more mag and use more mag skills.

Which makes the game pretty boring. Hybrid was supposed to create a new path for theory-crafting, not become the obvious option. They should have done hybrid like how they did scribing - optional and fun for new builds, but not too strong that it becomes mandatory to slot scribe abilities over original ones.

Tbh scribing IS too good and borderline mandatory if you want to have a bleeding edge in PvP.
It packs some hard-to-obtain buffs into skills that also do something else.