Tarnished Nightmare and ranged burst proc stacking need to go

xylena_lazarow

Durham wrote: »

Tarnished will receive a Nerf, but you must wait for another cycle or 2. They are extremely slow at balance in this game. Even when they know there is imbalance they are in no hurry to fix it. I also do not see them ever addressing ball groups. I do believe they think ball grouping is a PVP feature in Cyrodill.

They'll hit Tarnished and Hardened Ward eventually like they hit everything else eventually. Annoying to have to deal with it for months on end. The ball groups are a more complicated issue because a lot of their power comes from the power creep inherent to endgame PvE raiding. Always seemed silly that they need to inflict ultra-mega-Defiles on raid tanks to balance healing numbers that are clearly too big for both PvE and PvP, instead of rebalancing healing numbers.

FoJul

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Tarnished will receive a Nerf, but you must wait for another cycle or 2. They are extremely slow at balance in this game. Even when they know there is imbalance they are in no hurry to fix it. I also do not see them ever addressing ball groups. I do believe they think ball grouping is a PVP feature in Cyrodill.

They'll hit Tarnished and Hardened Ward eventually like they hit everything else eventually. Annoying to have to deal with it for months on end. The ball groups are a more complicated issue because a lot of their power comes from the power creep inherent to endgame PvE raiding. Always seemed silly that they need to inflict ultra-mega-Defiles on raid tanks to balance healing numbers that are clearly too big for both PvE and PvP, instead of rebalancing healing numbers.

I mean, you don't HAVE too. There other game expansions and new games to try out constantly.

katorga

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Cyro...all about the ball group

It's only a tiny fraction of PvPers that play in ball groups, but of course when you allow groups to become nigh unkillable, it will seem as if there are far more of them, when it's really one group crashing every fight and never dying (also abusing procs). If you go outside where the ball group is, expect to be hit by invisible Tarnished procs every few seconds.

May be so, but no arguing that is the Most Effective way to play in Cyro. If there were anyone actually in IC it would be the Most Effective way to play there as well.

Since the population caps in Cyro are so low, 1-2 full ball groups per faction represents a hefty percentage of the population.

xylena_lazarow

FoJul wrote: »

I mean, you don't HAVE too. There other game expansions and new games to try out constantly.

I took years long breaks after the 30% buff 60% nerf dot debacle of 2019, and the horrific mutilation of this game they called U35. But despite all these awful design mistakes, I still enjoy this game, and they still add things that are fun like Scribing, and I'm really looking forward to U43 just for the death of Undeath.

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I mean, you don't HAVE too. There other game expansions and new games to try out constantly.

I took years long breaks after the 30% buff 60% nerf dot debacle of 2019, and the horrific mutilation of this game they called U35. But despite all these awful design mistakes, I still enjoy this game, and they still add things that are fun like Scribing, and I'm really looking forward to U43 just for the death of Undeath.

This game has some of the best action based real time PvP combat system that I've played.

The only one that has topped the actual combat is Black Desert Online. But in my opinion the access to fun PvP was very limited (you could defend your grind spot, you could fight other guilds at bosses, and you had Node Wars but there was no influence to separate combat so you had ball zergs and it made individual player contribution feel insignificant).

So alas 10 years later this still feels the best PvP combat wise.

Skjaldbjorn

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The ball groups are a more complicated issue because a lot of their power comes from the power creep inherent to endgame PvE raiding. Always seemed silly that they need to inflict ultra-mega-Defiles on raid tanks to balance healing numbers that are clearly too big for both PvE and PvP, instead of rebalancing healing numbers.

AoE Healing in ESO is an issue, I won't lie. You could negate mechanics that were intended to be brutal for your tank, like Navi HM's tank debuff, by just stepping into group. Ground-based hots have always been absurdly strong in ESO, but heal caps do deter that to some extent. But with two healers pumping AoE hots, yeah, it's a lot.

What I find a lazy and uneducated take is tank healing as far as personal healing in ESO. I've been playing MMOs for 25+ years, I've played nearly every MMO that's come out, and to be perfectly honest, outside of tab targeting in ESO being the absolute effing worst any MMO has ever seen, ESO's tanking design/dynamic is brilliant. The agency tanks are given is so interesting and engaging.

I go back to Cloudrest before the DPS power creep. Being alone on an island while your group kills minis and having to self-sustain was so fun and engaging for me. I'd never experienced anything like it. And then portal? Especially if you have to run orbs in a duo portal setup, ***-ly, some of the most fun I've ever had in ESO. Nerfing tank healing would completely strip tanks of that agency and force a top-down redesign of how fights work, or at least how players approach them.

As far as tanks healing themselves in PVP, I think perhaps having Battle Spirit scale the heal debuff depending on your health would be an effective method to resolve some of the issues there, instead of a flat heal cut. Perhaps it starts at ~40% heal cut and for every ~5k HP over 25k it tacks on another ~5% or whatever. Eventually people could be super tanky but nearly unable to heal themselves in PVP. I can't speak to a "perfect" solution, but gutting tank healing isn't really it.

The fundamental issue I think is it's already astoundingly hard to find tanks in ESO. The burnout is real. Once people find out you're a decent tank, it's damn near all you're ever going to do moving forward. Nerfing tank healing would push the few tank players further, because the role would become infinitely less engaging and interesting.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

I mean, you don't HAVE too. There other game expansions and new games to try out constantly.

I took years long breaks after the 30% buff 60% nerf dot debacle of 2019, and the horrific mutilation of this game they called U35. But despite all these awful design mistakes, I still enjoy this game, and they still add things that are fun like Scribing, and I'm really looking forward to U43 just for the death of Undeath.

Yeah they totally have me in to see what happens after undeath isn't such a big deal!

BananaBender

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The ball groups are a more complicated issue because a lot of their power comes from the power creep inherent to endgame PvE raiding. Always seemed silly that they need to inflict ultra-mega-Defiles on raid tanks to balance healing numbers that are clearly too big for both PvE and PvP, instead of rebalancing healing numbers.

AoE Healing in ESO is an issue, I won't lie. You could negate mechanics that were intended to be brutal for your tank, like Navi HM's tank debuff, by just stepping into group. Ground-based hots have always been absurdly strong in ESO, but heal caps do deter that to some extent. But with two healers pumping AoE hots, yeah, it's a lot.

What I find a lazy and uneducated take is tank healing as far as personal healing in ESO. I've been playing MMOs for 25+ years, I've played nearly every MMO that's come out, and to be perfectly honest, outside of tab targeting in ESO being the absolute effing worst any MMO has ever seen, ESO's tanking design/dynamic is brilliant. The agency tanks are given is so interesting and engaging.

I go back to Cloudrest before the DPS power creep. Being alone on an island while your group kills minis and having to self-sustain was so fun and engaging for me. I'd never experienced anything like it. And then portal? Especially if you have to run orbs in a duo portal setup, ***-ly, some of the most fun I've ever had in ESO. Nerfing tank healing would completely strip tanks of that agency and force a top-down redesign of how fights work, or at least how players approach them.

As far as tanks healing themselves in PVP, I think perhaps having Battle Spirit scale the heal debuff depending on your health would be an effective method to resolve some of the issues there, instead of a flat heal cut. Perhaps it starts at ~40% heal cut and for every ~5k HP over 25k it tacks on another ~5% or whatever. Eventually people could be super tanky but nearly unable to heal themselves in PVP. I can't speak to a "perfect" solution, but gutting tank healing isn't really it.

The fundamental issue I think is it's already astoundingly hard to find tanks in ESO. The burnout is real. Once people find out you're a decent tank, it's damn near all you're ever going to do moving forward. Nerfing tank healing would push the few tank players further, because the role would become infinitely less engaging and interesting.

As Skjaldbjorn already said here, tanks and tank mechanics are designed with them being able to sustain themselves mostly alone and that's what makes tanking enjoyable.

The heal stacking is very unlikely to go anywhere either, since in the two latest trials (Sanity's Edge and Lucent Citadel) the difficulty is coming from the sheer amount of damage to the whole group. For those who are unaware, on vSE HM last boss groups are forced to run a third healer because the damage incoming to the whole group is too high. In vLC HM the last boss has a mechanic where DDs are forced to run shields if you want to survive it. Second boss in there is pure pain unless you are an arcanist. Taleria on HM requires around 100k HPS (~300k raw healing) at times to the entire group.

My theory is that they don't want healers to fall into irrelevancy so they keep slapping every new fight with an intense heal check. It's not completely unreasonable way to think either. Most dungeons are easier without a healer if all DDs deal good damage since you can skip most if not all mechanics. Older trials like Sunspire are often run with only one healer and tank. In groups where the people are not standing in stupid and taking unnecessary damage, healers are pretty much only there to buff the group.

Unless they revisit the latest trials and rework all of the hard fights there, I'm not seeing how they are ever removing heal stacking.

xylena_lazarow

BananaBender wrote: »

Unless they revisit the latest trials and rework all of the hard fights there, I'm not seeing how they are ever removing heal stacking.

How many heals do PvE raids stack? You have PvP raids with 12 Echoing Vigors going.

BananaBender

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Unless they revisit the latest trials and rework all of the hard fights there, I'm not seeing how they are ever removing heal stacking.

How many heals do PvE raids stack? You have PvP raids with 12 Echoing Vigors going.

Last patch vSE top score had 7 Echoing Vigors, less organized groups will run more. I don't think 12 vigors would be unreasonable to have.

Skjaldbjorn

BananaBender wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Unless they revisit the latest trials and rework all of the hard fights there, I'm not seeing how they are ever removing heal stacking.

How many heals do PvE raids stack? You have PvP raids with 12 Echoing Vigors going.

Last patch vSE top score had 7 Echoing Vigors, less organized groups will run more. I don't think 12 vigors would be unreasonable to have.

7 Echoing Vigors likely just from the DDs, with 3 heals on top for the final boss lmao. And most of those heals aren't even for the tanks.

Joy_Division

BananaBender wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The ball groups are a more complicated issue because a lot of their power comes from the power creep inherent to endgame PvE raiding. Always seemed silly that they need to inflict ultra-mega-Defiles on raid tanks to balance healing numbers that are clearly too big for both PvE and PvP, instead of rebalancing healing numbers.

AoE Healing in ESO is an issue, I won't lie. You could negate mechanics that were intended to be brutal for your tank, like Navi HM's tank debuff, by just stepping into group. Ground-based hots have always been absurdly strong in ESO, but heal caps do deter that to some extent. But with two healers pumping AoE hots, yeah, it's a lot.

What I find a lazy and uneducated take is tank healing as far as personal healing in ESO. I've been playing MMOs for 25+ years, I've played nearly every MMO that's come out, and to be perfectly honest, outside of tab targeting in ESO being the absolute effing worst any MMO has ever seen, ESO's tanking design/dynamic is brilliant. The agency tanks are given is so interesting and engaging.

I go back to Cloudrest before the DPS power creep. Being alone on an island while your group kills minis and having to self-sustain was so fun and engaging for me. I'd never experienced anything like it. And then portal? Especially if you have to run orbs in a duo portal setup, ***-ly, some of the most fun I've ever had in ESO. Nerfing tank healing would completely strip tanks of that agency and force a top-down redesign of how fights work, or at least how players approach them.

As far as tanks healing themselves in PVP, I think perhaps having Battle Spirit scale the heal debuff depending on your health would be an effective method to resolve some of the issues there, instead of a flat heal cut. Perhaps it starts at ~40% heal cut and for every ~5k HP over 25k it tacks on another ~5% or whatever. Eventually people could be super tanky but nearly unable to heal themselves in PVP. I can't speak to a "perfect" solution, but gutting tank healing isn't really it.

The fundamental issue I think is it's already astoundingly hard to find tanks in ESO. The burnout is real. Once people find out you're a decent tank, it's damn near all you're ever going to do moving forward. Nerfing tank healing would push the few tank players further, because the role would become infinitely less engaging and interesting.

As Skjaldbjorn already said here, tanks and tank mechanics are designed with them being able to sustain themselves mostly alone and that's what makes tanking enjoyable.

The heal stacking is very unlikely to go anywhere either, since in the two latest trials (Sanity's Edge and Lucent Citadel) the difficulty is coming from the sheer amount of damage to the whole group. For those who are unaware, on vSE HM last boss groups are forced to run a third healer because the damage incoming to the whole group is too high. In vLC HM the last boss has a mechanic where DDs are forced to run shields if you want to survive it. Second boss in there is pure pain unless you are an arcanist. Taleria on HM requires around 100k HPS (~300k raw healing) at times to the entire group.

My theory is that they don't want healers to fall into irrelevancy so they keep slapping every new fight with an intense heal check. It's not completely unreasonable way to think either. Most dungeons are easier without a healer if all DDs deal good damage since you can skip most if not all mechanics. Older trials like Sunspire are often run with only one healer and tank. In groups where the people are not standing in stupid and taking unnecessary damage, healers are pretty much only there to buff the group.

Unless they revisit the latest trials and rework all of the hard fights there, I'm not seeing how they are ever removing heal stacking.

I agree. But what does this have to do with PvP ranged proc damage?

bladenick

Range proc need adjust incorporating with undeath, or the range proc ganker will dominating BG next patch

Bushido2513

bladenick wrote: »

Range proc need adjust incorporating with undeath, or the range proc ganker will dominating BG next patch

Yeah it's going to be sooooo much fun running from proc to proc with bonus 15 percent more damage but also your damage is increasing by 15 so balance?

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Yeah it's going to be sooooo much fun running from proc to proc with bonus 15 percent more damage but also your damage is increasing by 15 so balance?

Undeath never really saved you from massive burst in the first place, it saved you when you're being pressured down, you've probably seen someone spamming their burst heal 10 times in a row at 10% hp while eating dot stacks and ults and executes to the face, that's the kind of nonsense the Undeath nerf is gonna finally put a righteous end to.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Yeah it's going to be sooooo much fun running from proc to proc with bonus 15 percent more damage but also your damage is increasing by 15 so balance?

Undeath never really saved you from massive burst in the first place, it saved you when you're being pressured down, you've probably seen someone spamming their burst heal 10 times in a row at 10% hp while eating dot stacks and ults and executes to the face, that's the kind of nonsense the Undeath nerf is gonna finally put a righteous end to.

I'm sure it's saved be from burst damage when I'm down to 5k hp and don't get hit as hard but yeah if the burst is just enough to kill my even with undeath I'd just die. I haven't ever seen a calculation of how undeath works with an attack where the attack at the same time puts you into undeath as it hits.

Jaraal

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

others have said it, but I will say it again because I agree. Tarnished should only work in melee range.

Yes! It would be awesome if you could pre-load an Ulfsild's Contingency AoE nuke, especially with the no-pet sorc added damage, to fire at the same time as Tarnished! Oh, wait.... you can already do that! Stampede in with Rush of Agony, grab everybody, proc everything, escape with Streak! Profit!

Ranged Tarnished is the least of your worries.

xylena_lazarow

Jaraal wrote: »

Ranged Tarnished is the least of your worries.

Ranged burst damage from multiple Tarnished gankers is literally the most of my worries, the biggest threat to my survival in any smallscale or zerg fight. Sure I'll occasionally die to a random RoA pull across the screen, but I rarely engage ball groups, while the ranged Tarnished proc stacks from multiples are constant everywhere. Not a good PvP experience.

Solariken

Oh don't worry they will nerf Tarnished into uselessness, 1 patch before something even more OP gets released.

Pelanora

Nobody cloaked can use a bow?

Too obvious? Too much?

Tinkerhorn

Extend the proc time to 12 seconds, make it an AoE around the caster.

xylena_lazarow

Pelanora wrote: »

Nobody cloaked can use a bow? Too obvious? Too much?

The problem is stacked proc sets, which also work on staves, not specifically bows or stealth.

TechMaybeHic

I feel like this topic is falling off and it really shouldn't. Ran into at least a pair doing this. when out and turtled up with hots and hit a detect pot right when they tried. Saw them at the end of my range and as soon as they realized I had prepared and was heading their way, just cloaked and high tailed it knowing that they have the range advantage. Its the safest and easiest way to kill players there is. No risk and brain dead easy.

bladenick

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I feel like this topic is falling off and it really shouldn't. Ran into at least a pair doing this. when out and turtled up with hots and hit a detect pot right when they tried. Saw them at the end of my range and as soon as they realized I had prepared and was heading their way, just cloaked and high tailed it knowing that they have the range advantage. Its the safest and easiest way to kill players there is. No risk and brain dead easy.

yes, it most powerfull and cheapest ganker play style, but as Night Blade, try not play this way, it ruin the "Blade" and also ruin the game

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I feel like this topic is falling off and it really shouldn't. Ran into at least a pair doing this. when out and turtled up with hots and hit a detect pot right when they tried. Saw them at the end of my range and as soon as they realized I had prepared and was heading their way, just cloaked and high tailed it knowing that they have the range advantage. Its the safest and easiest way to kill players there is. No risk and brain dead easy.

The most obnoxious part to me is how easy it is for them to fail, and almost immediately just try again, not just because they're far away and invisible, but also because when you have 10k-20k damage guaranteed from a one button proc stack on a short cooldown, you don't even need to spend your ult. Melee gankers can burst upwards of 40k, yet feel infinitely more fair to fight against, since they need to land their Incap ult on top of the risk of getting in close.

Major_Mangle

The biggest issue I´ve with PvP right now (outside of the very overtuned survivability of hardened ward sorcs and arcanists) is the huge disparity between melee and ranged damage. Range is simply better in 9/10 scenarios and comes with very little trade-off, if any.

OP of the thread talks about proc-stacking as an issue, which I do agree with is a problem in some cases. But the core issue has to do with ranged damage in combination with the ability to stack an obscene amount of instances of damage within very small time frames. I´m not referring to a properly lined up damage combo like a sorc timing frag/curse with an overload and/or Dawnbreaker for example. I´m more referring to the fact that you can land so many small instances of damage (where each instance itself is almost laughable in terms of damage) to the point where counterplay becomes almost zero. Status effects are the main offender here and ZOS should seriously reconsider reducing the damage of them, since they´re just free damage at the end of the day.

The ability to do this is way easier on ranged setup compared to melee due the "delayed nature" of ranged attacks. If ranged damage was lower in general it would be alright, but with how easy and free it is to get good stats these days the damage difference doesn´t exist.

On topic however:
I´d like to see a lot of these procs only being usable in melee range as a start. Tarnished is for sure one of those sets that should get the same treatment as ZOS gave Savage Werewolf (aka it only procs in melee). If they still want it to be usable on ranged builds the set should have a small delay in order to offer better counterplay.

Turtle_Bot

finally giving in and farming tarnished for myself (might as well now that there's no risk of getting banned for using a bugged set like on release).

what's one more shattering glass sound among the already thousands all over cyro.

As a side note, the dungeon on normal seems to be easy/short enough and the little square puzzles are actually pretty fun for such a simple concept (especially since they can be different each time you do them, which is a nice detail for replayability).

Turtle_Bot

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I´ve with PvP right now (outside of the very overtuned survivability of hardened ward sorcs and arcanists) is the huge disparity between melee and ranged damage. Range is simply better in 9/10 scenarios and comes with very little trade-off, if any.

OP of the thread talks about proc-stacking as an issue, which I do agree with is a problem in some cases. But the core issue has to do with ranged damage in combination with the ability to stack an obscene amount of instances of damage within very small time frames. I´m not referring to a properly lined up damage combo like a sorc timing frag/curse with an overload and/or Dawnbreaker for example. I´m more referring to the fact that you can land so many small instances of damage (where each instance itself is almost laughable in terms of damage) to the point where counterplay becomes almost zero. Status effects are the main offender here and ZOS should seriously reconsider reducing the damage of them, since they´re just free damage at the end of the day.

The ability to do this is way easier on ranged setup compared to melee due the "delayed nature" of ranged attacks. If ranged damage was lower in general it would be alright, but with how easy and free it is to get good stats these days the damage difference doesn´t exist.

On topic however:
I´d like to see a lot of these procs only being usable in melee range as a start. Tarnished is for sure one of those sets that should get the same treatment as ZOS gave Savage Werewolf (aka it only procs in melee). If they still want it to be usable on ranged builds the set should have a small delay in order to offer better counterplay.

yeah, even if they don't do a delay, but make it so that proc sets that inflict their proc on an enemy more than 15m away deal 10% less damage (the same reduction ZOS gave to ranged abilities compared to their melee equivalents) that would at least be a start.

Edit: maybe also have it so that every 15m range doubles the reduction to its damage done (so 15m = 10% reduction, 30m = 20% reduction, 45m = 40% reduction, 60m = 80% reduction), so it basically those "gankers" that throw a random poison arrow at you then runs to the next keep and waits for their free AP to tick from the free repeated gank they got to do thanks to the procs triggering from the long duration DoT will have their procs deal no damage.

TechMaybeHic

Major_Mangle wrote: »

The biggest issue I´ve with PvP right now (outside of the very overtuned survivability of hardened ward sorcs and arcanists) is the huge disparity between melee and ranged damage. Range is simply better in 9/10 scenarios and comes with very little trade-off, if any.

OP of the thread talks about proc-stacking as an issue, which I do agree with is a problem in some cases. But the core issue has to do with ranged damage in combination with the ability to stack an obscene amount of instances of damage within very small time frames. I´m not referring to a properly lined up damage combo like a sorc timing frag/curse with an overload and/or Dawnbreaker for example. I´m more referring to the fact that you can land so many small instances of damage (where each instance itself is almost laughable in terms of damage) to the point where counterplay becomes almost zero. Status effects are the main offender here and ZOS should seriously reconsider reducing the damage of them, since they´re just free damage at the end of the day.

The ability to do this is way easier on ranged setup compared to melee due the "delayed nature" of ranged attacks. If ranged damage was lower in general it would be alright, but with how easy and free it is to get good stats these days the damage difference doesn´t exist.

On topic however:
I´d like to see a lot of these procs only being usable in melee range as a start. Tarnished is for sure one of those sets that should get the same treatment as ZOS gave Savage Werewolf (aka it only procs in melee). If they still want it to be usable on ranged builds the set should have a small delay in order to offer better counterplay.

Yeah I on a whim, made a "classic" templar melee build. You actually can get some damage but you need a gap close to not get kited by anyone with a pulse, some speed to keep landing melee, and ironically; to get that kind of melee plar to work, you need to get your spell damage as high as possible to get the heals up and be able to do any damage.

It's easier to do damage with procs, but by the time you go that route, you might as well go ranged. It's so much safer than gap closing in to be a focus target of everything in the radius if 41m around you. It's so uneven right now, and procs assist a lot of it

xylena_lazarow

Major_Mangle wrote: »

I´m more referring to the fact that you can land so many small instances of damage (where each instance itself is almost laughable in terms of damage) to the point where counterplay becomes almost zero. Status effects are the main offender here and ZOS should seriously reconsider reducing the damage of them, since they´re just free damage at the end of the day.

I won't disagree that range vs melee is a huge problem, but the driving force in open world is massive instant free burst damage from proc sets, not the status effects they buffed to make up for the nerfs to dot skills. Builds that need 3-6 gcds to melt you are inherently fair, as you have 3-6 gcds to do something about it. Crushing Shock gankers occasionally run Draugrkin with Asylum Destro or similar, but that's far less significant than Tarnished Anthelmir.

As far as busted ranged pressure builds, give Relequen the "against monsters" treatment and we're fine. Might as well do "against monsters" for Tarnished and Anthelmir too...