Should ZOS introduce another campaign with new rules to combat ball group play?

Deimus

It's been years and all the new sets/game mechanics introduced just seems to have proliferated the amount of ball groups to where I can't tell if zos want to limit it or not. So should they just introduce a new campaign tailored to discouraging/penalizing ball groups and give those who find that style of gameplay toxic a place to play while leaving ball groups the other campaigns to play in?

adirondack

It is possible there are similar threads elsewhere in the forums.

Deimus

Add a new campaign with no stacking HoTs and damage shields placed on other players are reduced by an additional 30% added to Battle Spirit

adirondack wrote: »

It is possible there are similar threads elsewhere in the forums.

True, but changes in PvP are few and far between. This update they are planning to add proc sets to the no-cp no proc standard campaign, with the following update adding a new PvP focused feature. 2 PvP related things they are working on in back to back updates.

If there was any time to get zos to turn their eyes to the condition and concerns of PvP players this is it.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Without defining those rules its kinda pointless to vote yes or no.

For example, I don't think a solo only campaign would be popular so Its not worth it in general.

aetherix8

Other (comment your suggestion)

I don't think stacking HoTs and shields is the biggest problem. On no-CP, no-proc campaign we have plenty of "ballgroups" that spam heals and shields, and yet it is possible to defeat them pretty much every time. So I believe proc sets are the core problem. I think it would be worth testing whether disabling all procs with cooldown would weaken ballgroups: there would be still plenty of sets left (no-procs + procs without cooldown) for an efficient group play, and ballgroups would be stronger than what they are right now on RW, but perhaps they would not be impossible to defeat.

Desiato

Cyrodiil isn't popular enough for niche game modes.

Furthermore, there is no easy, simple rule change outside of team damage that would discourage ball groups without unintended consequences.

There are certain things they benefit from disproportionately like hot stacking, but even if they were removed, groups would adapt and a new meta would emerge.

Ball groups are the logical consequence of the fundamental combat design in this game. Only team damage or the removal of all AE abilities (a fundamental design change) would eliminate them.

SaffronCitrusflower

Add a new campaign with no stacking HoTs and damage shields placed on other players are reduced by an additional 30% added to Battle Spirit

Desiato wrote: »

Cyrodiil isn't popular enough for niche game modes.

Furthermore, there is no easy, simple rule change outside of team damage that would discourage ball groups without unintended consequences.

There are certain things they benefit from disproportionately like hot stacking, but even if they were removed, groups would adapt and a new meta would emerge.

Ball groups are the logical consequence of the fundamental combat design in this game. Only team damage or the removal of all AE abilities (a fundamental design change) would eliminate them.

Except Cyrodiil is very popular. That's why you see pop lock at 09:00 EST on weekdays for some factions and sometimes all factions.

Those of us who play for the PvP in Cyodiil have been calling for ZOS to limit heal stacking for years and ZOS has never even experimented with the concept. ZOS should at least give it a try and see how the change impacts performance.

Desiato

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Except Cyrodiil is very popular. That's why you see pop lock at 09:00 EST on weekdays for some factions and sometimes all factions.

Those of us who play for the PvP in Cyodiil have been calling for ZOS to limit heal stacking for years and ZOS has never even experimented with the concept. ZOS should at least give it a try and see how the change impacts performance.

No, it's not. It is a fringe game mode. Total server populations are estimated to be between 180-300 players. Pop locking a single 300 player server [per platform/region] is not a trait of a popular game.

if it were popular, the other servers would also pop lock, resulting in the need for more servers.

Popular pvp games have tens of thousands of active players at any given time. Cyrodiil pvp is not one of them. If a standalone commercial game had so few players, it would have to end operations.

SaffronCitrusflower

Add a new campaign with no stacking HoTs and damage shields placed on other players are reduced by an additional 30% added to Battle Spirit

Desiato wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Except Cyrodiil is very popular. That's why you see pop lock at 09:00 EST on weekdays for some factions and sometimes all factions.

Those of us who play for the PvP in Cyodiil have been calling for ZOS to limit heal stacking for years and ZOS has never even experimented with the concept. ZOS should at least give it a try and see how the change impacts performance.

No, it's not. It is a fringe game mode. Total server populations are estimated to be between 180-300 players. Pop locking a single 300 player server [per platform/region] is not a trait of a popular game.

if it were popular, the other servers would also pop lock, resulting in the need for more servers.

Popular pvp games have tens of thousands of active players at any given time. Cyrodiil pvp is not one of them. If a standalone commercial game had so few players, it would have to end operations.

Cyrodiil absolutely is not a "fringe game mode". Cyrodiil PvP is a staple of ESO as a game. That's why for years now people have been begging for the pop cap to be increased, and that was even before the latest pop cap reduction was made in January of this year.

Just because you don't like Cyrodiil PvP doesn't mean a lot of other people share your view. Cyrodiil PvP is extremely popular. That's why so many PvP players have stuck around through so many years of poor treatment from ZOS.

You've got it backwards. The cap isn't low due to low demand to play in the zone. The cap is low because ZOS isn't doing their part to support the very popular game mode.

Desiato

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Cyrodiil absolutely is not a "fringe game mode". Cyrodiil PvP is a staple of ESO as a game. That's why for years now people have been begging for the pop cap to be increased, and that was even before the latest pop cap reduction was made in January of this year.

Just because you don't like Cyrodiil PvP doesn't mean a lot of other people share your view. Cyrodiil PvP is extremely popular. That's why so many PvP players have stuck around through so many years of poor treatment from ZOS.

I love Cyrodiil. This isn't about my personal preference. It is clear it is not played by many players. 300-500 players prime time per server/region does not constitute a popular game mode.

Deimus

Add a new campaign with no stacking HoTs and damage shields placed on other players are reduced by an additional 30% added to Battle Spirit

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Without defining those rules its kinda pointless to vote yes or no.

For example, I don't think a solo only campaign would be popular so Its not worth it in general.

That's why there's an other option for people to explain their positions as I didn't think the others would encompass every player.

I don't think this would result in a solo only campaign and I'm not advocating for one either, but for a campaign without players stacking and exploiting how HoTs and Shields work to faceroll coldfires, meatbags, and bombs without their hp bar even budging. Groups that utilize strategy in how they take points on the map or build to compliment each other in combat are fine and take skill and effort to pull off successfully, but you only see those in small groups of usually 3-5 players now.

Deimus

Add a new campaign with no stacking HoTs and damage shields placed on other players are reduced by an additional 30% added to Battle Spirit

Desiato wrote: »

Cyrodiil isn't popular enough for niche game modes.

A Cyrodiil without ball groups wouldn't be a niche mode since most players don't play in ball groups.

Desiato wrote: »

Furthermore, there is no easy, simple rule change outside of team damage that would discourage ball groups without unintended consequences.

There are certain things they benefit from disproportionately like hot stacking, but even if they were removed, groups would adapt and a new meta would emerge.

Why would they adapt when every other campaign would allow them to continue playing the way they always do?

This new one wouldn't be for them and if they do come and try to adapt as long as their safety net of HoTs and Shields doesn't insulate them from actual PvP and siege/bombs reliably disrupts their formation I don't see those players sticking around too long as they enjoy farming easy kills without having to put in the work or risk death. Just stay in any other campaign with the other ball groups and run around a keep brushing elbows with them for an hour.

Desiato wrote: »

Ball groups are the logical consequence of the fundamental combat design in this game. Only team damage or the removal of all AE abilities (a fundamental design change) would eliminate them.

They are a result of the game's combat, but more so the lack of attention PvP game modes receive. There has to be PvP specific adjustments like Battle Spirit to correct the behavior without changing combat design. If removing HoT stacking and reducing potency of shields cast on other players isn't enough we should have learned that years ago via testing.

Desiato

Deimus wrote: »

A Cyrodiil without ball groups wouldn't be a niche mode since most players don't play in ball groups.

Deimus wrote: »

Why would they adapt when every other campaign would allow them to continue playing the way they always do?

I agree that most players aren't ball group players. What we have in Cyrodiil is a diverse ecosystem of players with a variety of goals and play styles. The relationships tend to be multidimensional and asymmetrical.

For example, players tend to demonize the opposition ball groups that are farming them, yet will happily surf friendly ball groups and call for their help. They celebrate when the ball group shows up to zerg down the small group that's been farming them in a tower for the last hour, when they defeat opposition ball groups, and when they spearhead things like map movement and scroll runs.

If your first point is correct and the majority of players go to the new server, ball groups will follow, just like a predator will follow its source of food as it migrates.

Even if ball groups didn't follow, a new alpha predator would emerge just as annoying to the average player as the ones being replaced. A different kind of group would dominate without ball groups, something like the large EP streamer groups with single target builds we sometimes see. This would be great for groups like them to sit at the top uncontested, but the average player may find they preferred the original paradigm as it was more accessible to them. Especially if combat is significantly different.

Ultimately though, I wouldn't expect most players to go to an alternate rule server. Most players in Cyrodiil are part of the herd. They aren't movers and shakers. They don't spearhead initiatives. They go with the flow. This is why they are unwilling to branch out to a new server until it has a flow to join. Many are pve players who go through the motions to get alts enough AP for T1 rewards; they are there for geodes, not pvp. So many players in Cyro are such easy kills because they're just there for the ticks and don't really care.

Deimus wrote: »

They are a result of the game's combat, but more so the lack of attention PvP game modes receive. There has to be PvP specific adjustments like Battle Spirit to correct the behavior without changing combat design. If removing HoT stacking and reducing potency of shields cast on other players isn't enough we should have learned that years ago via testing.

ESO combat is based around AE heals, damage and buffs. This is why all kinds of groups benefit from balling up. Getting rid of ball groups isn't as simple as removing stacking HoTs. Comprehensive changes would be required. Combat would need to be redesigned from the ground up. This isn't likely to happen.

I think there's a lot that ZOS can do to improve gameplay in Cyrodiil, but it all starts with a willingness to allocate the resources. Like dedicated pvp game designers and a willingness to decouple PVE and PVP combat because they are so disparate. Unfortunately, the last time ZOS made a serious investment in AvA was in 2015 with the introduction of IC.

And without a a proper investment and a willingness to see the process through, an alternate rules server will be doomed to fail as we saw with the no proc initiative.

reazea

Add a new campaign with no stacking HoTs and damage shields placed on other players are reduced by an additional 30% added to Battle Spirit

Desiato wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Cyrodiil absolutely is not a "fringe game mode". Cyrodiil PvP is a staple of ESO as a game. That's why for years now people have been begging for the pop cap to be increased, and that was even before the latest pop cap reduction was made in January of this year.

Just because you don't like Cyrodiil PvP doesn't mean a lot of other people share your view. Cyrodiil PvP is extremely popular. That's why so many PvP players have stuck around through so many years of poor treatment from ZOS.

I love Cyrodiil. This isn't about my personal preference. It is clear it is not played by many players. 300-500 players prime time per server/region does not constitute a popular game mode.

The pop cap in Cyrodiil is 180-240 total between all three factions combined.

The population cap is the single most notable factor limiting participation in Cyrodiil. Far more people want to get into Cyrodiil than can get in with pop caps this low.

reazea

Add a new campaign with no stacking HoTs and damage shields placed on other players are reduced by an additional 30% added to Battle Spirit

Desiato wrote: »

Deimus wrote: »

A Cyrodiil without ball groups wouldn't be a niche mode since most players don't play in ball groups.

Deimus wrote: »

Why would they adapt when every other campaign would allow them to continue playing the way they always do?

I agree that most players aren't ball group players. What we have in Cyrodiil is a diverse ecosystem of players with a variety of goals and play styles. The relationships tend to be multidimensional and asymmetrical.

For example, players tend to demonize the opposition ball groups that are farming them, yet will happily surf friendly ball groups and call for their help. They celebrate when the ball group shows up to zerg down the small group that's been farming them in a tower for the last hour, when they defeat opposition ball groups, and when they spearhead things like map movement and scroll runs.

If your first point is correct and the majority of players go to the new server, ball groups will follow, just like a predator will follow its source of food as it migrates.

Even if ball groups didn't follow, a new alpha predator would emerge just as annoying to the average player as the ones being replaced. A different kind of group would dominate without ball groups, something like the large EP streamer groups with single target builds we sometimes see. This would be great for groups like them to sit at the top uncontested, but the average player may find they preferred the original paradigm as it was more accessible to them. Especially if combat is significantly different.

Ultimately though, I wouldn't expect most players to go to an alternate rule server. Most players in Cyrodiil are part of the herd. They aren't movers and shakers. They don't spearhead initiatives. They go with the flow. This is why they are unwilling to branch out to a new server until it has a flow to join. Many are pve players who go through the motions to get alts enough AP for T1 rewards; they are there for geodes, not pvp. So many players in Cyro are such easy kills because they're just there for the ticks and don't really care.

Deimus wrote: »

They are a result of the game's combat, but more so the lack of attention PvP game modes receive. There has to be PvP specific adjustments like Battle Spirit to correct the behavior without changing combat design. If removing HoT stacking and reducing potency of shields cast on other players isn't enough we should have learned that years ago via testing.

ESO combat is based around AE heals, damage and buffs. This is why all kinds of groups benefit from balling up. Getting rid of ball groups isn't as simple as removing stacking HoTs. Comprehensive changes would be required. Combat would need to be redesigned from the ground up. This isn't likely to happen.

I think there's a lot that ZOS can do to improve gameplay in Cyrodiil, but it all starts with a willingness to allocate the resources. Like dedicated pvp game designers and a willingness to decouple PVE and PVP combat because they are so disparate. Unfortunately, the last time ZOS made a serious investment in AvA was in 2015 with the introduction of IC.

And without a a proper investment and a willingness to see the process through, an alternate rules server will be doomed to fail as we saw with the no proc initiative.

Combat would not have to be completely redesigned to remove heal and shield stacking. It would be a pretty easy change to make. Just tie it to "when battle spirit is active". Easy.

Given that so many of us PvP regulars have requested that heal stacking be limited, it might very likely turn out to be a more popular game mode without the out of control heal and shield stacking going on today.

darvaria

Other (comment your suggestion)

Just give us a time limited capture fort type event (WSG & AB have endured for 20 years now). Use a portal like Runescape does and just don't have any groups. I'm sick of 3 sides. At least try something different.

The ball groups sort of ruin it for the average player. However, for some reason, they are not as much of a problem now since my return to game 3 or 4 months ago. Maybe it's my 45K health perma block build?

The same goes for tower humpers. ZOS removed the doors from towers. NOW it's time to remove towers from resources. We don't enough players in Cyro now with only 60-80 per alliance for such nonsense.

darvaria

Other (comment your suggestion)

There is ONE easy fix for ball groups. An exploding ability like VD that absolutely detonates players in your group. And it ONLY affects players in the same group and has a multiplying effect. Have it bounce to all players in the group increasing 10K for each hit. The same multiplying effect for siege on group ONLY players would help too.

Deimus

Add a new campaign with no stacking HoTs and damage shields placed on other players are reduced by an additional 30% added to Battle Spirit

Desiato wrote: »

For example, players tend to demonize the opposition ball groups that are farming them, yet will happily surf friendly ball groups and call for their help. They celebrate when the ball group shows up to zerg down the small group that's been farming them in a tower for the last hour, when they defeat opposition ball groups, and when they spearhead things like map movement and scroll runs.

I dislike them equally rather they are on my faction or not. They cause more performance issues than zergs and often times they prioritize griefing the other factions rather than helping us defend or get our scrolls they'll head to the enemy faction's gate keeps and run around there farming players for half an hour. With the lowered pop cap that means up to 20% of our manpower is wasted being toxic rather than assisting the faction. They aren't even keeping them busy, because when most players realize they don't want to take the keep they just want to farm they leave and go do constructive things. I think they are bad for the game regardless of faction.

Desiato wrote: »

If your first point is correct and the majority of players go to the new server, ball groups will follow, just like a predator will follow its source of food as it migrates.

Even if ball groups didn't follow, a new alpha predator would emerge just as annoying to the average player as the ones being replaced. A different kind of group would dominate without ball groups, something like the large EP streamer groups with single target builds we sometimes see. This would be great for groups like them to sit at the top uncontested, but the average player may find they preferred the original paradigm as it was more accessible to them. Especially if combat is significantly different.

If enough players move that they feel the need folllow to the new campaign then that's a clear sign to zos that the playerbase doesn't want ball groups and maybe they should expand the changes to other campaigns. If the limitations are successful and they follow then they won't be an issue. When their exploit is gone they will engage with PvP legitimately like the rest of us, go back to the other campaigns, or hang it up and go back to PvE. If something else takes their place as long as it requires skill and isn't exploiting design flaws to faceroll then good. They worked hard and that's the result. If it is another unintended exploit then I hope zos addresses it at a much faster pace.

Desiato wrote: »

Ultimately though, I wouldn't expect most players to go to an alternate rule server. Most players in Cyrodiil are part of the herd. They aren't movers and shakers. They don't spearhead initiatives. They go with the flow. This is why they are unwilling to branch out to a new server until it has a flow to join. Many are pve players who go through the motions to get alts enough AP for T1 rewards; they are there for geodes, not pvp. So many players in Cyro are such easy kills because they're just there for the ticks and don't really care.

Many players queue for GH and play in BR while they wait. They will try out the other campaigns because pop cap is so low and many players don't have time to wait 30+ mins to play the game so they'll go where they can play if they are PvPers. PvEers don't factor into this at all, because if they are doing endeavors, T1, or a quest they are going to pick the least populated server get in and get out. Also if possible they'll do it when nobody is on during working hours or late night/early morning and they'll never go to GH.

Desiato wrote: »

I think there's a lot that ZOS can do to improve gameplay in Cyrodiil, but it all starts with a willingness to allocate the resources. Like dedicated pvp game designers and a willingness to decouple PVE and PVP combat because they are so disparate. Unfortunately, the last time ZOS made a serious investment in AvA was in 2015 with the introduction of IC.

And without a a proper investment and a willingness to see the process through, an alternate rules server will be doomed to fail as we saw with the no proc initiative.

I agree that a lot could be done and I'd love to see them reallocate more resources towards PvP there are a lot of small QoL things they could do that I'm surprised haven't been implemented or fixed yet. So assuming they see this thread and decide to move that manpower to tackle the issue what do you think should be done if removing HoT stacking and limiting shields placed on other players is inefficient, what actions would you suggest they take?

Deimus

Add a new campaign with no stacking HoTs and damage shields placed on other players are reduced by an additional 30% added to Battle Spirit

darvaria wrote: »

Just give us a time limited capture fort type event (WSG & AB have endured for 20 years now). Use a portal like Runescape does and just don't have any groups. I'm sick of 3 sides. At least try something different.

The ball groups sort of ruin it for the average player. However, for some reason, they are not as much of a problem now since my return to game 3 or 4 months ago. Maybe it's my 45K health perma block build?

The same goes for tower humpers. ZOS removed the doors from towers. NOW it's time to remove towers from resources. We don't enough players in Cyro now with only 60-80 per alliance for such nonsense.

I'd love larger 2 team battlegrounds like WSG or AB. 3 sides are fun but better for modes like Deathmatch. When it comes to more objective based games 1 team usually just ignores objective and goes for kills.

45k hp is the future of Cyrodiil if they don't get more involved. It will be all ball groups, tanks, and nbs as nothing else will be worth it.

darvaria wrote: »

There is ONE easy fix for ball groups. An exploding ability like VD that absolutely detonates players in your group. And it ONLY affects players in the same group and has a multiplying effect. Have it bounce to all players in the group increasing 10K for each hit. The same multiplying effect for siege on group ONLY players would help too.

Siege that scales in damage based off of stacking could be a solution. Not dealing a lot of damage to 2 or 3 players in a group, but if it hit 7+ stacked on each other dealing exponentially more damage. The group condition might have to be removed or they'd just put a marker over the head of the NB with RoA and clump together not in a group. Set based fixes have always backfired so far, but without their HoTs and shields could work as intended.

xylena_lazarow

Other (comment your suggestion)

None of your poll options make sense. That won't do anything to nerf ball groups, which also aren't mandatory, neither to join nor fight against. It does suck when you're a random and it seems like ball groups are crashing every fight, but it's also not like you're going to be fired from your faction for avoiding engaging them.

Stafford197

Other (comment your suggestion)

You don’t understand what’s happened here and it has nothing to do with “ballgroups”.

Back before Morrowind launched, PS4 NA had 4 poplocked campaigns in primetime and even the extra campaigns had some population.
- Servers held more players
- AP gains were lower
- AP itself was less valuable
- Rewards of the Worthy had zero value
- Transmutation Crystals didn’t exist
- Potions were far pricier to craft
- Sorc and NB were OP, Temp was mid, DK was trash, there was no Warden/Necro/Arc yet

There was almost zero incentive to PvP, yet there was one key factor about it which was more important than everything else.
It was fun. And that’s all people really want - a fun game. Otherwise they leave.

Ballgroups were possible back then and yet ESO PvP was booming. You should be advocating for ZOS to fix server lag and many other issues within PvP. Ofc they will never fix it, but you should push that instead of trying to get rid of even more playstyles or to make random ruleset campaigns no one will care about.

Desiato

Deimus wrote: »

I dislike them equally rather they are on my faction or not. They cause more performance issues than zergs and often times they prioritize griefing the other factions rather than helping us defend or get our scrolls they'll head to the enemy faction's gate keeps and run around there farming players for half an hour. With the lowered pop cap that means up to 20% of our manpower is wasted being toxic rather than assisting the faction. They aren't even keeping them busy, because when most players realize they don't want to take the keep they just want to farm they leave and go do constructive things. I think they are bad for the game regardless of faction.

Much of this applies to all play styles. If ball groups didn't exist, there would still be OP 12 player groups farming players and trolling scrolls without a care for the map.

Like every play style, ball groups have a range of characteristics. There are those who operate like you describe, and there others who play the map and try to do positive things for their factions -- and others in between.

Selfish players and groups come in all shapes and sizes.

Deimus wrote: »

Many players queue for GH and play in BR while they wait. They will try out the other campaigns because pop cap is so low and many players don't have time to wait 30+ mins to play the game so they'll go where they can play if they are PvPers. PvEers don't factor into this at all, because if they are doing endeavors, T1, or a quest they are going to pick the least populated server get in and get out. Also if possible they'll do it when nobody is on during working hours or late night/early morning and they'll never go to GH.

Most PVE players in Cyrodiil aren't there to quest. They are PVE enthusiasts who are hungry for transmutes. They want to be on the most active campaign possible so they can follow the herd and collect ticks on their alts without making pvp builds and/or learning to pvp on them.

Even most Cyrodiil regulars aren't necessarily highly skilled independent players that can find their own action. IMO, most players will wait until their faction is at 2-3 bars before they'll consider joining. There are even times a faction is poplocked with no movers and shakers, so they'll all be hemmed in at fare/arrius/glade waiting for something to happen elsewhere on the map. They won't be new server pioneers.

Deimus wrote: »

I agree that a lot could be done and I'd love to see them reallocate more resources towards PvP there are a lot of small QoL things they could do that I'm surprised haven't been implemented or fixed yet. So assuming they see this thread and decide to move that manpower to tackle the issue what do you think should be done if removing HoT stacking and limiting shields placed on other players is inefficient, what actions would you suggest they take?

No offence, but there's nothing in this thread that wasn't said in 2014 when ball groups first emerged. Brian Wheeler has a good understanding of all of these things. There has probably been an active thread about ball groups for the past 10 years. I think it's pretty clear they don't have a problem with ball groups conceptually. I accepted this in 2015.

I think modern low skill, yet highly survivable ball groups are a macrocosm of bad game design that affects every style of play from solo to large scale.

It's largely the result of the ZOS agenda for PVE combat design to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". ESO is first and foremost a game for Skyrim fans, most of whom are extremely casual. So their priority is to make PVE content as accessible to them as possible, PVP balance and high skill caps be damned.

Fixing what's broken isn't as simple as changing one or two things. It requires serious game design with spreadsheets, algorithms, modelling and testing. I can't credibly say I have any specific answers in my back pocket and I don't think anyone can.

The first step to fixing PVP gameplay would need to be a strong desire from ZOS corporate leadership to do so resulting in the financial investment necessary and a willingness to decouple PVE and PVP gameplay which are incompatible. That's what has been missing since they changed course with their plans for ESO 8-9 years ago.

Deimus

Add a new campaign with no stacking HoTs and damage shields placed on other players are reduced by an additional 30% added to Battle Spirit

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

None of your poll options make sense. That won't do anything to nerf ball groups, which also aren't mandatory, neither to join nor fight against. It does suck when you're a random and it seems like ball groups are crashing every fight, but it's also not like you're going to be fired from your faction for avoiding engaging them.

So your suggestion is it sucks to play against them and they'll crash fights when you ignore them, but nothing zos should do because it's a game and not a job? To me that sounds like you've already given up and want Cyrodiil to continue to slowly die off.

If my options make no sense how would you fix it?

Deimus

Add a new campaign with no stacking HoTs and damage shields placed on other players are reduced by an additional 30% added to Battle Spirit

Stafford197 wrote: »

You don’t understand what’s happened here and it has nothing to do with “ballgroups”.

Back before Morrowind launched, PS4 NA had 4 poplocked campaigns in primetime and even the extra campaigns had some population.
- Servers held more players
- AP gains were lower
- AP itself was less valuable
- Rewards of the Worthy had zero value
- Transmutation Crystals didn’t exist
- Potions were far pricier to craft
- Sorc and NB were OP, Temp was mid, DK was trash, there was no Warden/Necro/Arc yet

There was almost zero incentive to PvP, yet there was one key factor about it which was more important than everything else.
It was fun. And that’s all people really want - a fun game. Otherwise they leave.

Ballgroups were possible back then and yet ESO PvP was booming. You should be advocating for ZOS to fix server lag and many other issues within PvP. Ofc they will never fix it, but you should push that instead of trying to get rid of even more playstyles or to make random ruleset campaigns no one will care about.

I've been playing on and off since beta and know just how much fun and potential lies in Cyrodiil and how disappointing it is that they've chosen to neglect PvP instead of growing it with the rest of the game. It could be the best PvP in an mmo if it received the proper attention. The server lag, combat bug, gradual slashing of the population cap are all things that shouldn't exist at the 10 year anniversary mark, but ball groups contribute to making each of those things worse. They drop all players performance more than a zerg of the same size would, they get you stuck in the combat bug if you engage them, and instead of addressing any of these performance issues they lower population making ball groups a higher percentage of your faction.

I never cared about the rewards much and I feel most PvPer are the same. I agree making sure it's fun is the main thing and believe the players should be capable of advocating for multiple issues to be fixed that make the general experience worse. To me ball groups are one of those issues that also happens to exasperate other long standing issues.

xylena_lazarow

Other (comment your suggestion)

Deimus wrote: »

If my options make no sense how would you fix it?

There's not gonna be a silver bullet nerf, the things I see as outliers are Snow Treaders turning off counterplay, and Echoing Vigor being stacked 12x with extremely low opportunity cost. Better than nerfing the ball would be to buff the tools available for randoms, better siege engines, more skills like Repelling Explosion from Scribing that disrupt their stacking.

Stafford197

Other (comment your suggestion)

Deimus wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

You don’t understand what’s happened here and it has nothing to do with “ballgroups”.

Back before Morrowind launched, PS4 NA had 4 poplocked campaigns in primetime and even the extra campaigns had some population.
- Servers held more players
- AP gains were lower
- AP itself was less valuable
- Rewards of the Worthy had zero value
- Transmutation Crystals didn’t exist
- Potions were far pricier to craft
- Sorc and NB were OP, Temp was mid, DK was trash, there was no Warden/Necro/Arc yet

There was almost zero incentive to PvP, yet there was one key factor about it which was more important than everything else.
It was fun. And that’s all people really want - a fun game. Otherwise they leave.

Ballgroups were possible back then and yet ESO PvP was booming. You should be advocating for ZOS to fix server lag and many other issues within PvP. Ofc they will never fix it, but you should push that instead of trying to get rid of even more playstyles or to make random ruleset campaigns no one will care about.

I've been playing on and off since beta and know just how much fun and potential lies in Cyrodiil and how disappointing it is that they've chosen to neglect PvP instead of growing it with the rest of the game. It could be the best PvP in an mmo if it received the proper attention. The server lag, combat bug, gradual slashing of the population cap are all things that shouldn't exist at the 10 year anniversary mark, but ball groups contribute to making each of those things worse. They drop all players performance more than a zerg of the same size would, they get you stuck in the combat bug if you engage them, and instead of addressing any of these performance issues they lower population making ball groups a higher percentage of your faction.

I never cared about the rewards much and I feel most PvPer are the same. I agree making sure it's fun is the main thing and believe the players should be capable of advocating for multiple issues to be fixed that make the general experience worse. To me ball groups are one of those issues that also happens to exasperate other long standing issues.

Hey I totally agree about the potential ESO had. I also totally wish they would have capitalized on it, but after so long I gave up on the idea of them improving PvP.

And I do understand why ball groups are frustrating as well but I just don’t think there is a real solution to this. Making it so numerous versions of the same HoT can’t be stacked would be a solid start, but besides that…. It would take actual good balancing to fix this and I have no faith in ZOS to ever do this. And judging by how few players are still around in Cyro, I suspect many are in the same boat as me.

I just think trying to create more campaigns will never work out in a beneficial way. Because at the end of the day ball groups are just a group of organized players, which if we’re being realistic is not something that should be punished. It’s just poor balancing which has allowed things to be out of control.

Tsuriel

Playing in groups should not be discouraged but ballgroup gameplay specifically is a disease that should be fought and removed on all fronts, one campaign discouraging ballgroup gameplay won't do it. Just take Guild Wars 2, it's PvP is ruined due to Anet's vocal support to such gameplay, ESO is heading in the same direction and in EU it went as far as people leaving Grayhost altogether.

At least now one can join the same faction as the ballgroup(s) until they choose to leave.

edward_frigidhands

No change you want ball group play to be mandatory for all campaigns

No one will play it. A handful keep asking for this while the majority have no interest in it.

Players aren't interested in PVP modes with a bunch of restrictions or stuff disabled.

This is why Ravenwatch sits empty while Gray Host has a 1hr+ que.

EDIT: Great poll language btw. Nothing says you're open to discussion like insulting and disrespecting the people that disagree with you.

Tsuriel

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

This is why Ravenwatch sits empty while Gray Host has a 1hr+ que.

GH is dead in EU

Veinblood1965

I don't like running into ball groups either however are we going to penalise players who study their builds and build around being in a group? That's not really fair IMO. There are ways to counter them however you've ALSO got to be in a GROUP and spamming negates and things also. Besides how exactly are we going to stop it even if we wanted to without causing problems in other areas?

It's one thing to say hey let's limit ball groups however it's another skeever entirely to actually find a way to do it without affecting something else. There will ALWAYS be people who are just better than others in PVP in any game. Just like there are elite guilds for PVE there are elite groups for PVP. Is it a pain to have to spend twenty minutes dealing with them? Yes but it's also quite fun IMO as it challenges the other factions to get their stuff together and figure out how. I love it when my guild get together to kill them and once we get it timed right every one of them dies at the same time. BAM!

Leave it alone or we will have another Ravenwatch. There's a reason why it and NO CP IC are empty.

CatoUnchained

Add a new campaign with no stacking HoTs and damage shields placed on other players are reduced by an additional 30% added to Battle Spirit

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

I don't like running into ball groups either however are we going to penalise players who study their builds and build around being in a group? That's not really fair IMO. There are ways to counter them however you've ALSO got to be in a GROUP and spamming negates and things also. Besides how exactly are we going to stop it even if we wanted to without causing problems in other areas?

It's one thing to say hey let's limit ball groups however it's another skeever entirely to actually find a way to do it without affecting something else. There will ALWAYS be people who are just better than others in PVP in any game. Just like there are elite guilds for PVE there are elite groups for PVP. Is it a pain to have to spend twenty minutes dealing with them? Yes but it's also quite fun IMO as it challenges the other factions to get their stuff together and figure out how. I love it when my guild get together to kill them and once we get it timed right every one of them dies at the same time. BAM!

Leave it alone or we will have another Ravenwatch. There's a reason why it and NO CP IC are empty.

Limiting heal and shield stacking would be the most effective way to even the playing field with ball groups. That ZOS hasn't even tried this after years of the hardcore PvP community asking for it is, well, a pretty good indicator of how ZOS prioritizes customer feedback. (i.e.- ZOS only listens to feedback that supports what they've already decided to do)