If Vampire is losing 20% Damage Mitigation they should be buffed in other aspects to compensate.

Good_VS_Evil

As if the skill-line/players werent welcome enough, this is the final nail in the coffin.

From 30% to 10%, there is now no real reason to want to play as a Vampire aside from Lore Lovers/Die Hard Fans of Vampires.

I could understand this nerf if SOMETHING was added/given in return but as it stands now this is just a NET NEGATIVE for Vampire Players. Atleast give something unique to Vampirism Stage 4, atleast MAKE wanting to be Stage 4 special in some regard due to the nature of the effects...As it stands now, its like the skill-line has 0 identity and reasoning for being in the game other than "oh well vampires are in the other games so here ya go".

This change does nothing but HURT what little vampire players there are for seemingly no reason at all.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

We need something for stage 3 now most of all, that is an OCD triggering problem.

Least they could do is remove the stupid increased ability cost.

Zyaneth_Bal

Unfortunately, the skill line consists of a questionable mobility too, the least reliable cc in the game, situational ulti gen (tank tool), buff for gankers (unnecessary and excessive), another ganking tool and ganking is op even without those.
Same situation with passives. Situational invisibility, controversial damage reduction, and yet another ganking buff.
In it’s current state vampire isn’t just dead and obsolete but it’s harming the game by doing nothing but provide absolutely unnecessary and excessive buffs to an already unfair playstyle.

Urzigurumash

You can practically find PhD theses on this forum about how and why Undeath was imbalancing PvP.

Part of it, if you have any regard for Vampires within lore, was that the war for Cyrodiil, the battle for IC, and the sport of BGs was participated in by Vampires and only Vampires, with two or three Werewolves in the mix. Humans were literally not present in these avenues of play.

So perhaps you're unfamiliar with PvP and where it's played, but rest assured: that's the reason.

Good_VS_Evil

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You can practically find PhD theses on this forum about how and why Undeath was imbalancing PvP.

Part of it, if you have any regard for Vampires within lore, was that the war for Cyrodiil, the battle for IC, and the sport of BGs was participated in by Vampires and only Vampires, with two or three Werewolves in the mix. Humans were literally not present in these avenues of play.

So perhaps you're unfamiliar with PvP and where it's played, but rest assured: that's the reason.

Heavens forbid that Vampires are hard to kill...

But on a more serious and technical note, Vampires are also just as hindered in PvP from taking increased to potentially double fire damage, penalties to skill costs for casting outside the skill-line and massive drawbacks on health recovery FORCING them to play a certain way or not be able to be viable in PvP scenarios to begin with. Not to mention the fighters guild skill-line passives that are FREE TO ALL PLAYERS also helps defeat Vampire players even faster.

Snatching 20% of their damage mitigation and giving them NOTHING in return is not a good solution.

MEBengalsFan2001

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

As if the skill-line/players werent welcome enough, this is the final nail in the coffin.

From 30% to 10%, there is now no real reason to want to play as a Vampire aside from Lore Lovers/Die Hard Fans of Vampires.

I could understand this nerf if SOMETHING was added/given in return but as it stands now this is just a NET NEGATIVE for Vampire Players. Atleast give something unique to Vampirism Stage 4, atleast MAKE wanting to be Stage 4 special in some regard due to the nature of the effects...As it stands now, its like the skill-line has 0 identity and reasoning for being in the game other than "oh well vampires are in the other games so here ya go".

This change does nothing but HURT what little vampire players there are for seemingly no reason at all.

Vampire all stages get the damage reduction so no more needing to get stage three. Simply stay stage 1.

gronoxvx

People actually use vamp in pvp for more than just this passive? Didnt know that.

Good_VS_Evil

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

As if the skill-line/players werent welcome enough, this is the final nail in the coffin.

From 30% to 10%, there is now no real reason to want to play as a Vampire aside from Lore Lovers/Die Hard Fans of Vampires.

I could understand this nerf if SOMETHING was added/given in return but as it stands now this is just a NET NEGATIVE for Vampire Players. Atleast give something unique to Vampirism Stage 4, atleast MAKE wanting to be Stage 4 special in some regard due to the nature of the effects...As it stands now, its like the skill-line has 0 identity and reasoning for being in the game other than "oh well vampires are in the other games so here ya go".

This change does nothing but HURT what little vampire players there are for seemingly no reason at all.

Vampire all stages get the damage reduction so no more needing to get stage three. Simply stay stage 1.

Thats not the issue, the issue is that the damage reduction you get is now MAX 10% instead of MAX 30%...they have taken away 20% of the passives damage mitigation. Losing 20% is ALOT.

Urzigurumash

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You can practically find PhD theses on this forum about how and why Undeath was imbalancing PvP.

Part of it, if you have any regard for Vampires within lore, was that the war for Cyrodiil, the battle for IC, and the sport of BGs was participated in by Vampires and only Vampires, with two or three Werewolves in the mix. Humans were literally not present in these avenues of play.

So perhaps you're unfamiliar with PvP and where it's played, but rest assured: that's the reason.

Heavens forbid that Vampires are hard to kill...

But on a more serious and technical note, Vampires are also just as hindered in PvP from taking increased to potentially double fire damage, penalties to skill costs for casting outside the skill-line and massive drawbacks on health recovery FORCING them to play a certain way or not be able to be viable in PvP scenarios to begin with. Not to mention the fighters guild skill-line passives that are FREE TO ALL PLAYERS also helps defeat Vampire players even faster.

Snatching 20% of their damage mitigation and giving them NOTHING in return is not a good solution.

I see you've read not one of these theses. Mortals took even more Flame Damage than Vampires. If there were 100 players in Cyro at any one time, there were 99 Vampires.

Does that fit your idea of Vampire RP in TES?

Good_VS_Evil

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You can practically find PhD theses on this forum about how and why Undeath was imbalancing PvP.

Part of it, if you have any regard for Vampires within lore, was that the war for Cyrodiil, the battle for IC, and the sport of BGs was participated in by Vampires and only Vampires, with two or three Werewolves in the mix. Humans were literally not present in these avenues of play.

So perhaps you're unfamiliar with PvP and where it's played, but rest assured: that's the reason.

Heavens forbid that Vampires are hard to kill...

But on a more serious and technical note, Vampires are also just as hindered in PvP from taking increased to potentially double fire damage, penalties to skill costs for casting outside the skill-line and massive drawbacks on health recovery FORCING them to play a certain way or not be able to be viable in PvP scenarios to begin with. Not to mention the fighters guild skill-line passives that are FREE TO ALL PLAYERS also helps defeat Vampire players even faster.

Snatching 20% of their damage mitigation and giving them NOTHING in return is not a good solution.

I see you've read not one of these theses. Mortals took even more Flame Damage than Vampires. If there were 100 players in Cyro at any one time, there were 99 Vampires.

Does that fit your idea of Vampire RP in TES?

If you have a point you have yet to state it, just sharing your PERSONAL experiences isnt saying much. The issue at hand is Vampire players losing 20% of their Damage Mitigation and receiving nothing in return. I could care less about RP nonsense we are talking about NUMBERS and STATS.

West93

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You can practically find PhD theses on this forum about how and why Undeath was imbalancing PvP.

Part of it, if you have any regard for Vampires within lore, was that the war for Cyrodiil, the battle for IC, and the sport of BGs was participated in by Vampires and only Vampires, with two or three Werewolves in the mix. Humans were literally not present in these avenues of play.

So perhaps you're unfamiliar with PvP and where it's played, but rest assured: that's the reason.

Heavens forbid that Vampires are hard to kill...

But on a more serious and technical note, Vampires are also just as hindered in PvP from taking increased to potentially double fire damage, penalties to skill costs for casting outside the skill-line and massive drawbacks on health recovery FORCING them to play a certain way or not be able to be viable in PvP scenarios to begin with. Not to mention the fighters guild skill-line passives that are FREE TO ALL PLAYERS also helps defeat Vampire players even faster.

Snatching 20% of their damage mitigation and giving them NOTHING in return is not a good solution.

I see you've read not one of these theses. Mortals took even more Flame Damage than Vampires. If there were 100 players in Cyro at any one time, there were 99 Vampires.

Does that fit your idea of Vampire RP in TES?

And it will still be 99 vamps out of 100 just stage 1.

michiganteacher_ESO

Really silly. Your game is so far out of balance that a 20% damage nerf to the majority of PVP players is needed? That's a pretty damning indictment of your ability to manage the game.

Wow. Seems amateurish, frankly.

Urzigurumash

West93 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You can practically find PhD theses on this forum about how and why Undeath was imbalancing PvP.

Part of it, if you have any regard for Vampires within lore, was that the war for Cyrodiil, the battle for IC, and the sport of BGs was participated in by Vampires and only Vampires, with two or three Werewolves in the mix. Humans were literally not present in these avenues of play.

So perhaps you're unfamiliar with PvP and where it's played, but rest assured: that's the reason.

Heavens forbid that Vampires are hard to kill...

But on a more serious and technical note, Vampires are also just as hindered in PvP from taking increased to potentially double fire damage, penalties to skill costs for casting outside the skill-line and massive drawbacks on health recovery FORCING them to play a certain way or not be able to be viable in PvP scenarios to begin with. Not to mention the fighters guild skill-line passives that are FREE TO ALL PLAYERS also helps defeat Vampire players even faster.

Snatching 20% of their damage mitigation and giving them NOTHING in return is not a good solution.

I see you've read not one of these theses. Mortals took even more Flame Damage than Vampires. If there were 100 players in Cyro at any one time, there were 99 Vampires.

Does that fit your idea of Vampire RP in TES?

And it will still be 99 vamps out of 100 just stage 1.

Possibly yes, but look at it this way, now the Cost Penalty vs Undeath numbers are perfectly equivalent to Battlefield Acrobat and Buffer of the Swift. Now the average Vampire will take more Damage from Dawnbreaker than a Mortal more often than not - opposed to less often than not, as it was with Undeath at 30%.

The game element appears to have been brought into line. If you need some other reason to play Vampire think of some and recommend them, but the reasons why this variable was changed are clear and logical.

Urzigurumash

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

You can practically find PhD theses on this forum about how and why Undeath was imbalancing PvP.

Part of it, if you have any regard for Vampires within lore, was that the war for Cyrodiil, the battle for IC, and the sport of BGs was participated in by Vampires and only Vampires, with two or three Werewolves in the mix. Humans were literally not present in these avenues of play.

So perhaps you're unfamiliar with PvP and where it's played, but rest assured: that's the reason.

Heavens forbid that Vampires are hard to kill...

But on a more serious and technical note, Vampires are also just as hindered in PvP from taking increased to potentially double fire damage, penalties to skill costs for casting outside the skill-line and massive drawbacks on health recovery FORCING them to play a certain way or not be able to be viable in PvP scenarios to begin with. Not to mention the fighters guild skill-line passives that are FREE TO ALL PLAYERS also helps defeat Vampire players even faster.

Snatching 20% of their damage mitigation and giving them NOTHING in return is not a good solution.

I see you've read not one of these theses. Mortals took even more Flame Damage than Vampires. If there were 100 players in Cyro at any one time, there were 99 Vampires.

Does that fit your idea of Vampire RP in TES?

If you have a point you have yet to state it, just sharing your PERSONAL experiences isnt saying much. The issue at hand is Vampire players losing 20% of their Damage Mitigation and receiving nothing in return. I could care less about RP nonsense we are talking about NUMBERS and STATS.

It's not my personal experience. Why don't you search this forum for Undeath and read some of the many things written about this.

Urzigurumash

@Good_VS_Evil Start with this graph from nearly 3 years ago. We were still talking about it on this forum the morning of the nerf.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7452535/#Comment_7452535

Good_VS_Evil

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Good_VS_Evil Start with this graph from nearly 3 years ago. We were still talking about it on this forum the morning of the nerf.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7452535/#Comment_7452535

Your data only factors players who PvP and who are Vampire Stage 3+...

People PvP as Werewolves, Normal, Stage 1/2, the variables are there. I am for a 20% loss of Damage Mitigation if Vampire is buffed in other areas. As it stands this is just a hard nerf to Vampire with 0 upsides. As a Vampire player, I dont like this.

Urzigurumash

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Good_VS_Evil Start with this graph from nearly 3 years ago. We were still talking about it on this forum the morning of the nerf.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7452535/#Comment_7452535

Your data only factors players who PvP and who are Vampire Stage 3+...

People PvP as Werewolves, Normal, Stage 1/2, the variables are there. I am for a 20% loss of Damage Mitigation if Vampire is buffed in other areas. As it stands this is just a hard nerf to Vampire with 0 upsides. As a Vampire player, I dont like this.

Did, people did PvP as Non Stage 3 Vampire. Back before the Undeath passive was revised in 2020, I think, maybe 2021.

But not after, Undeath was too strong.

I guess altogether PvPers outnumber dedicated Vampires in PvE.

Otherwise I get what you're saying totally. Something else - more than one thing else probably - should be given to Vampires. But this change is really welcome in PvP, we've been in almost unanimous agreement for 3 years, Undeath was the number one problem in PvP.

We'll see if we were right.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

To make up for it Vampires should beable to bite people in PvP again like they used to instantly killing them.

Udrath

Current undeath is almost like having two sets of pariah on, or look at it as having the potential to have between 0-19800 armor depending on your missing health. It needed to be nerfed. Vampire still offers a strong spammable and a good ultimate.

Arcanasx

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

To make up for it Vampires should beable to bite people in PvP again like they used to instantly killing them.

Claims undeath is necessary against gankers, while asking for vampires to have the ability to instantly kill, while all the gankers are also vampires themselves...

Muizer

I think a high damage skill (e.g. FG ult) that works specifically against vampires when cast by mortals would have been a more interesting approach for PvP. It's clear, though, ZoS doesn't like abilities that could be used to target specific groups of players. Probably why they took out the knock down from silver shards. Players might think it 'unfair' and complain about being hampered in their freedom to 'play as they want'.

CameraBeardThePirate

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

As if the skill-line/players werent welcome enough, this is the final nail in the coffin.

From 30% to 10%, there is now no real reason to want to play as a Vampire aside from Lore Lovers/Die Hard Fans of Vampires.

I could understand this nerf if SOMETHING was added/given in return but as it stands now this is just a NET NEGATIVE for Vampire Players. Atleast give something unique to Vampirism Stage 4, atleast MAKE wanting to be Stage 4 special in some regard due to the nature of the effects...As it stands now, its like the skill-line has 0 identity and reasoning for being in the game other than "oh well vampires are in the other games so here ya go".

This change does nothing but HURT what little vampire players there are for seemingly no reason at all.

Vampire all stages get the damage reduction so no more needing to get stage three. Simply stay stage 1.

Thats not the issue, the issue is that the damage reduction you get is now MAX 10% instead of MAX 30%...they have taken away 20% of the passives damage mitigation. Losing 20% is ALOT.

Exactly. You should be losing a lot of mitigation, 30% is way too much.

tsaescishoeshiner

I think they should buff the abilities. That rewards vampires for active play, and rewards higher stages by making the abilities cheaper.

On-and-off, the main recurring issue with vampires has been people only using the passives. And I guess Mist Form.

Toanis

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Exactly. You should be losing a lot of mitigation, 30% is way too much.

It' a counter to the 300% execute damage some players know how to get. Not a lot, but every bit helps, sure.

It's only 30%, when the vampire is down to 1k health, though. I don't think that the average health of actively participating players in PVP (as in neither dead nor hiding) is anywhere near down to 50% (=15% mitigation, soon 5%).

Unless you're the kind of player who likes joining a group chasing one tanky player around the keep while his buddies cap it, I doubt you run into many situations where Undeath has that much of an impact, and even then, Invisibility on Sprint is 100% mitigation...

Careful what you wish for, that slippery vampire might soon be just Stage 1 and can sustain much more self healing-

davelbier

its a bad change to me -

it should stay at tier 3. the damage mitigation is too high, but it SHOULD have a downside like resource cost at stage 3. You shouldnt get 10% for almost nothing. 30% in pvp was crazy. I dont pve much these days, but i dont know why PVE toons need the 30% mitigation. I assume for tanking? Sorry thats just out of my realm these days.

at tier 1 NBs come out way ahead on the current PTS revision for PVP:

1. a ton of things that de-cloaked them are 'fixed' which is just crap, god forbid they arent always invisible.
2. they moved skills to magicka, and can stay a tier 1 vamp with some decent damage mitigation [10% is still a lot imo], but without the resource headaches of running NB at stage 3 - sort of makes me expect max-mag gankers.
3. now they can more easily gank others because that undeath passive was one of the key ways to keep from getting one-shot.

Zyaneth_Bal

davelbier wrote: »

its a bad change to me -

it should stay at tier 3. the damage mitigation is too high, but it SHOULD have a downside like resource cost at stage 3. You shouldnt get 10% for almost nothing. 30% in pvp was crazy. I dont pve much these days, but i dont know why PVE toons need the 30% mitigation. I assume for tanking? Sorry thats just out of my realm these days.

at tier 1 NBs come out way ahead on the current PTS revision for PVP:

1. a ton of things that de-cloaked them are 'fixed' which is just crap, god forbid they arent always invisible.
2. they moved skills to magicka, and can stay a tier 1 vamp with some decent damage mitigation [10% is still a lot imo], but without the resource headaches of running NB at stage 3 - sort of makes me expect max-mag gankers.
3. now they can more easily gank others because that undeath passive was one of the key ways to keep from getting one-shot.

Firstly, if you get to 10% mitigation you are dead. Secondly, due to how mitigations works even then it will actually be significantly lower than 10%.

Also, in my opinion it might be a good idea to reverse undeath’s effect and make it apply at high health and reduce in potency as health gets lower. This should help deal with 100-0 bursts while actually making it easier to execute targets.

M1SHAAN

davelbier wrote: »

now they can more easily gank others because that undeath passive was one of the key ways to keep from getting one-shot.

Is that true? My understanding is, if it's a true one-shot then undeath isn't doing anything for you because you're getting hit at 100% health. I thought undeath was more useful for extended fights, so if you make a mistake and let your health get low you have a better chance of getting in a heal before your opponent(s) finish you off. But I am terrible at PvP so I might be completely wrong.

Anyways, in case ZOS needs help coming up with a new stage 3 passive, here are some ideas:

• Decreased disease, poison, and/or frost damage (like in Skyrim)
• Increased pickpocket chance
• Decreased stealth detection radius
• Increased movement speed
• Any of the above, but only during in-game night
• "Darkvision"- increased detection range (to detect others) at night

CameraBeardThePirate

M1SHAAN wrote: »

davelbier wrote: »

now they can more easily gank others because that undeath passive was one of the key ways to keep from getting one-shot.

Is that true? My understanding is, if it's a true one-shot then undeath isn't doing anything for you because you're getting hit at 100% health. I thought undeath was more useful for extended fights, so if you make a mistake and let your health get low you have a better chance of getting in a heal before your opponent(s) finish you off. But I am terrible at PvP so I might be completely wrong.

Anyways, in case ZOS needs help coming up with a new stage 3 passive, here are some ideas:

• Decreased disease, poison, and/or frost damage (like in Skyrim)
• Increased pickpocket chance
• Decreased stealth detection radius
• Increased movement speed
• Any of the above, but only during in-game night
• "Darkvision"- increased detection range (to detect others) at night

There are no true one-shots (outside of weirdness with Tri-Focus in IC), only true globals (i.e., a gank that kills within 1 second). Even the best ganks have multiple instances of damage, and Undeath did help to prevent those from killing you.

Zyaneth_Bal

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

M1SHAAN wrote: »

davelbier wrote: »

now they can more easily gank others because that undeath passive was one of the key ways to keep from getting one-shot.

Is that true? My understanding is, if it's a true one-shot then undeath isn't doing anything for you because you're getting hit at 100% health. I thought undeath was more useful for extended fights, so if you make a mistake and let your health get low you have a better chance of getting in a heal before your opponent(s) finish you off. But I am terrible at PvP so I might be completely wrong.

Anyways, in case ZOS needs help coming up with a new stage 3 passive, here are some ideas:

• Decreased disease, poison, and/or frost damage (like in Skyrim)
• Increased pickpocket chance
• Decreased stealth detection radius
• Increased movement speed
• Any of the above, but only during in-game night
• "Darkvision"- increased detection range (to detect others) at night

There are no true one-shots (outside of weirdness with Tri-Focus in IC), only true globals (i.e., a gank that kills within 1 second). Even the best ganks have multiple instances of damage, and Undeath did help to prevent those from killing you.

Well true one hits technically are possible and onslaught is able to one hit actually decent pvp builds although provided they are damage focused and thus not tanky.
And undeath alone isn’t nearly enough to survive a proper gank build anyway. Not to mention it’s even more effective against sustained damage builds that have already lost actuality. Undeath needs to go but full health bursts do need to be addressed still.

Good_VS_Evil

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

As if the skill-line/players werent welcome enough, this is the final nail in the coffin.

From 30% to 10%, there is now no real reason to want to play as a Vampire aside from Lore Lovers/Die Hard Fans of Vampires.

I could understand this nerf if SOMETHING was added/given in return but as it stands now this is just a NET NEGATIVE for Vampire Players. Atleast give something unique to Vampirism Stage 4, atleast MAKE wanting to be Stage 4 special in some regard due to the nature of the effects...As it stands now, its like the skill-line has 0 identity and reasoning for being in the game other than "oh well vampires are in the other games so here ya go".

This change does nothing but HURT what little vampire players there are for seemingly no reason at all.

Vampire all stages get the damage reduction so no more needing to get stage three. Simply stay stage 1.

Thats not the issue, the issue is that the damage reduction you get is now MAX 10% instead of MAX 30%...they have taken away 20% of the passives damage mitigation. Losing 20% is ALOT.

Exactly. You should be losing a lot of mitigation, 30% is way too much.

Which is why I said I am fine with it as long as Vampire could be buffed in other areas, as it stands now this nerf only hurts all vampire players even though its sole purpose is directed towards PvP Vampires.

Which is weird when they could have just made the skill numbers max out lower in PvP settings.

CameraBeardThePirate

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Good_VS_Evil wrote: »

As if the skill-line/players werent welcome enough, this is the final nail in the coffin.

From 30% to 10%, there is now no real reason to want to play as a Vampire aside from Lore Lovers/Die Hard Fans of Vampires.

I could understand this nerf if SOMETHING was added/given in return but as it stands now this is just a NET NEGATIVE for Vampire Players. Atleast give something unique to Vampirism Stage 4, atleast MAKE wanting to be Stage 4 special in some regard due to the nature of the effects...As it stands now, its like the skill-line has 0 identity and reasoning for being in the game other than "oh well vampires are in the other games so here ya go".

This change does nothing but HURT what little vampire players there are for seemingly no reason at all.

Vampire all stages get the damage reduction so no more needing to get stage three. Simply stay stage 1.

Thats not the issue, the issue is that the damage reduction you get is now MAX 10% instead of MAX 30%...they have taken away 20% of the passives damage mitigation. Losing 20% is ALOT.

Exactly. You should be losing a lot of mitigation, 30% is way too much.

Which is why I said I am fine with it as long as Vampire could be buffed in other areas, as it stands now this nerf only hurts all vampire players even though its sole purpose is directed towards PvP Vampires.

Which is weird when they could have just made the skill numbers max out lower in PvP settings.

Will you stop commenting that this is only for PvPers in every thread?

Up to 30% mitigation is ridiculous to have on a passive in any content. PvE or PvP.