Not only ward is the problem here

VinnyGambini · July 7

1 of the streamers showed what sorecerer is capable of:

Summary of ESO classes pvp wise:

Best dmg - sorcerer (yes, nb is worse)
Best mobility - sorcerer
Best survivability - sorcerer (aka OP ward)

Very nice

divnyi · July 7

What am I looking at on the screenshot? What's wrong here?

xylena_lazarow · July 7

divnyi wrote: »

What am I looking at on the screenshot? What's wrong here?

That level of damage near 8k dps is what minmaxed dueling builds put out, max 13k Curse and a 16k Frag. This is not a glass cannon, it is the tankiest DD spec in the game right now with its spammable 16k shield, and also the most mobile DD in the game with the best spammable teleport. The whole class was banned from a dueling tournament.

LittlePinkDot · July 7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

What am I looking at on the screenshot? What's wrong here?

That level of damage near 8k dps is what minmaxed dueling builds put out, max 13k Curse and a 16k Frag. This is not a glass cannon, it is the tankiest DD spec in the game right now with its spammable 16k shield, and also the most mobile DD in the game with the best spammable teleport. The whole class was banned from a dueling tournament.

Not defending mag sorc but look at how many skills of all classes that tournament has banned! What a lame tournament....

xylena_lazarow · July 7

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Not defending mag sorc but look at how many skills of all classes that tournament has banned! What a lame tournament....

You know what's lame? Endless stalemates via endlessly resetting the duel. That's what the rules are for.

divnyi · July 7

This game should be balanced via battle spirit to make 1v1 stalemates mathematically impossible.
Sadly, it's not the case.

LittlePinkDot · July 8

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Not defending mag sorc but look at how many skills of all classes that tournament has banned! What a lame tournament....

You know what's lame? Endless stalemates via endlessly resetting the duel. That's what the rules are for.

Come on over to PS5, there's plenty of people who dont know how to block half the time. 😆 And no add ons. "Ignorance is bliss."

As for me I'm somebody who needs to finish a fight quickly before I run out of resources. I'm either going to win in 30-40 seconds or I'm going to die in 30-40 seconds.

Alchimiste1 · July 8

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

What am I looking at on the screenshot? What's wrong here?

That level of damage near 8k dps is what minmaxed dueling builds put out, max 13k Curse and a 16k Frag. This is not a glass cannon, it is the tankiest DD spec in the game right now with its spammable 16k shield, and also the most mobile DD in the game with the best spammable teleport. The whole class was banned from a dueling tournament.

To be more precise a very strong min/maxed 1v1 setup will do 5-6k dps on a class with a lot of pressure. If you are doing more than that its basically impossible for the other person to survive unless they are a sorc with ward.

TechMaybeHic · July 8

I'm sure there will be some balancing this patch. Like buff NB and buff necros in a way that makes them worse to play.

VinnyGambini · July 8

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

What am I looking at on the screenshot? What's wrong here?

That level of damage near 8k dps is what minmaxed dueling builds put out, max 13k Curse and a 16k Frag. This is not a glass cannon, it is the tankiest DD spec in the game right now with its spammable 16k shield, and also the most mobile DD in the game with the best spammable teleport. The whole class was banned from a dueling tournament.

Says it all.

I love those sorc player responds - sorc is FINALLY VIABLE AGAIN. No, sorc was viable, and s-tier before buffs and now it needs to be banned from tournaments.

I see 2 solutions here:

1. Nerf sorc dmg AND survivability (a lot, aka nerf to the ground)

OR

2. Delete sorcerer.

Bushido2513 · July 8

VinnyGambini wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

What am I looking at on the screenshot? What's wrong here?

That level of damage near 8k dps is what minmaxed dueling builds put out, max 13k Curse and a 16k Frag. This is not a glass cannon, it is the tankiest DD spec in the game right now with its spammable 16k shield, and also the most mobile DD in the game with the best spammable teleport. The whole class was banned from a dueling tournament.

Says it all.

I love those sorc player responds - sorc is FINALLY VIABLE AGAIN. No, sorc was viable, and s-tier before buffs and now it needs to be banned from tournaments.

I see 2 solutions here:

1. Nerf sorc dmg AND survivability (a lot, aka nerf to the ground)

OR

2. Delete sorcerer.

Sorc was viable before the change if you were willing or able to really dig in and make it work. For some that didn't or couldn't make that leap I could see them saying it's viable now. Though I get that some feel it's maybe too viable now.

CameraBeardThePirate · July 8

I'm not saying Sorc isn't OP right now (it is), but using duel tournament rules as a barometer is not a good idea.

The game isn't balanced for duels. Every single patch there are banned classes, playstyles, sets, or abilities because the game isn't designed for balanced 1v1s.

TechMaybeHic · July 8

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I'm not saying Sorc isn't OP right now (it is), but using duel tournament rules as a barometer is not a good idea.

The game isn't balanced for duels. Every single patch there are banned classes, playstyles, sets, or abilities because the game isn't designed for balanced 1v1s.

But its usually just some abilities. An entire class is an indicator of something beyond just not balanced for 1v1

CameraBeardThePirate · July 8

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I'm not saying Sorc isn't OP right now (it is), but using duel tournament rules as a barometer is not a good idea.

The game isn't balanced for duels. Every single patch there are banned classes, playstyles, sets, or abilities because the game isn't designed for balanced 1v1s.

But its usually just some abilities. An entire class is an indicator of something beyond just not balanced for 1v1

It's the entire class because sorc is worthless without Ward. Ward is the issue, but banning Ward is essentially the same thing as banning the class, because the class is poo without Ward.

xylena_lazarow · July 8

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I'm not saying Sorc isn't OP right now (it is), but using duel tournament rules as a barometer is not a good idea

Not on its own, but there's clearly mountains of Cyro and BGs evidence being shown as well, and it's highly unusual for an entire class to be banned from tournaments. And as has been previously discussed, 1v1 happens a lot more than many players think, especially in 1vX situations that reduce to a series of fast 1v1s. This doesn't just affect 1vX tryhards, but also the unfortunate casuals in the X who are being annihilated by an unkillable teleporting battlecruiser.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

To be more precise a very strong min/maxed 1v1 setup will do 5-6k dps on a class with a lot of pressure. If you are doing more than that its basically impossible for the other person to survive unless they are a sorc with ward.

And for further context, 5-6k dps is what open world builds generally top out at, you're killing most everything on the field at that point, 5-6k dps open world 1v1 is enough to get incoming hate tells calling you a hacking cheater in Cyro or BGs.

Bushido2513 · July 8

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I'm not saying Sorc isn't OP right now (it is), but using duel tournament rules as a barometer is not a good idea.

The game isn't balanced for duels. Every single patch there are banned classes, playstyles, sets, or abilities because the game isn't designed for balanced 1v1s.

But its usually just some abilities. An entire class is an indicator of something beyond just not balanced for 1v1

It's the entire class because sorc is worthless without Ward. Ward is the issue, but banning Ward is essentially the same thing as banning the class, because the class is poo without Ward.

Still for context this was some person or a few persons that were holding a tournament where they felt there was no way to balance sorc to be allowed in their tournament. This somewhat speaks to their perceived thoughts on the power level of ward but it also just says that they couldn't or decided not to devise a ruleset that could make using ward possible.

I'm not sure what testing they did to come to this conclusion but I'd take it with a grain of salt before just saying this class using ward is so unruly it just can't be made to work in a fair way.

xylena_lazarow · July 8

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm not sure what testing they did to come to this conclusion

Literally what the OP shows. Unmatched damage, range, and mobility even without Ward.

Bushido2513 · July 8

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm not sure what testing they did to come to this conclusion

Literally what the OP shows. Unmatched damage, range, and mobility even without Ward.

I meant testing to say that there was no way to make a rule that would allow players to use ward and still compete. Like did they try saying you had to get your mag pool to x and your health to x? That's my point but I guess what I'm saying is perhaps there was a ruleset that could have been given specifically to sorc instead of just saying they aren't allowed.

VinnyGambini · July 8

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'm not sure what testing they did to come to this conclusion

Literally what the OP shows. Unmatched damage, range, and mobility even without Ward.

Sorcerer literally looks like nightblade and dragonknight combined, only invisibility was changed to mobility tool - streak.

And I fully agree:

sorc with ward and without streak > any class
sorc with streak and without ward > any class

moo_2021 · July 8

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

What am I looking at on the screenshot? What's wrong here?

That level of damage near 8k dps is what minmaxed dueling builds put out, max 13k Curse and a 16k Frag. This is not a glass cannon, it is the tankiest DD spec in the game right now with its spammable 16k shield, and also the most mobile DD in the game with the best spammable teleport. The whole class was banned from a dueling tournament.

Why does the stat window list 22k pen with 45% over-pen?

TechMaybeHic · July 8

I realize Warden was doing it with health but feels like sorc could use something to unmarry damage and survivability. Lower the percentage of health limit in Cyrodiil or flat value mag increases or something that still works for middling sorcs that don't know to stack super high mag, or just not skilled enough to actively survive like that.

Tommy_The_Gun · July 8

Honestly ? Seeing what was happening on forums in recent months I am not surprised.

xylena_lazarow · July 8

moo_2021 wrote: »

Why does the stat window list 22k pen with 45% over-pen?

I don't think the overpen stat works properly in PvP, it often shows very strange values.

moo_2021 · July 8

Why did sorcs feel the need for buff in the first place? Can't they just use the previous ward plus vigor in pve?

Araneae6537 · July 8

Maybe ward was buffed too much but I feel like people are going to complain that sorc is OP as long as streak exists and that NB is OP as long as invisibility exists, nevermind that there are gap closers and reveal potions…

I think sorc had been mid tier for a while (since U35?) so I’m glad for some adjustments, although the heals on ward are probably too much. Still, too many sorc abilities remain fairly useless — I keep waiting for lightning abilities to be made viable!

SkaraMinoc · July 8

It's funny - I pointed out that Sorcs are tossing around 15k frags in PvP and I got shutdown saying it's never that high.

SkaraMinoc · July 8

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Best survivability - sorcerer (aka OP ward)

A good Templar is still more difficult to kill in 1v1 I think. You can catch a Mag Sorc with a stun and chonk their health to 30% pretty easily.

Tinkerhorn · July 9

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Best survivability - sorcerer (aka OP ward)

A good Templar is still more difficult to kill in 1v1 I think. You can catch a Mag Sorc with a stun and chonk their health to 30% pretty easily.

In a duel a templar will always be strong due to the proximity. As such you can build a templar exclusively for dueling but it would be a nightmare to drag around Cyro. Even then it'll still struggle with a sorc due to the amount of damage needed to output and sustain required. Further a Sorcs defenses just require less gcd's. When it comes to cyro as far as I can see you can build Templar for damage, or for survivability (Defense and sustain) and try fish kills with javelin and oppression. In no situation can I think of templar being beneficial over sorc in cyro apart from forming a well rounded group.
Even then most groups just now consist of mostly sorcs with the odd super tank/healer - typically warden and/or arcanist, and some NBs for good measure. Many groups are exclusively sorcs.
Sorcs are just extremely well rounded, excelling in pretty much all fronts at the moment. I'm unsure as to what their downside is compared to other classes outside of being super tanky healers or turning invisible.
At least they're very good practice to fight against as they can test a build on most fronts.

CompM4s · July 9

I personally think the torc mythic is perfect for dueling tournaments. They should make it easier to get. Every one wears torc in torney, and no worries about sets having a edge.

master_vanargand · July 10

Basically, Duel will never end battle.
Unless special rules are created, Duel tournaments of user event will never end, even after 1000 years.

MEBengalsFan2001 · July 10

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Not defending mag sorc but look at how many skills of all classes that tournament has banned! What a lame tournament....

You know what's lame? Endless stalemates via endlessly resetting the duel. That's what the rules are for.

Come on over to PS5, there's plenty of people who dont know how to block half the time. 😆 And no add ons. "Ignorance is bliss."

As for me I'm somebody who needs to finish a fight quickly before I run out of resources. I'm either going to win in 30-40 seconds or I'm going to die in 30-40 seconds.

Usually I try to build tanky character with high resource pool. However lately it doesn’t matter if I can use obstacles, blocking, dodge roll, healing etc… the burst potential of NB, Sorc, DK, Arcanist, and some Warden make it hard to enjoy pvp because they are also usually really hard to kill either due to high defensive or great mobility. Playing a high damage and tanky Templar isn’t really a thing anymore. What I don’t get is that devs adjusted Templar to get rid of the high damage and high defense only passing these features over to other classes. If the devs would have never touched the Templar after the next update all classes would be closer in damage potential and defensive potential.