Wretched Vitality Needs a Nerf

Duke_Falcon · June 27

This sets recoveries out preform all other sets, because you can shuffle your stats around in so many different ways in the game with enchants, armor weights, traits, and even skills, having this much recovery anywhere in your build allows you to add extra resources, resistances, or damage in other ways, making this set highly out preforming all other sets in the game in a pvp combat scenario.

Firstmep · June 27

No thanks. There some classes that dont have built infinite sustain so until everyone plays at an equal playing field, wretched is very much needed.

I wouldn't run this set on my arcanist for example..

Arizona_Steve · June 27

Rather than suggesting what needs to be nerfed, can we suggest skills/sets that need to be buffed?

DrNukenstein · June 27

Or you could just use jewels of misrule and use sets that give you more damage (or survivability) than you would get by shuffling around some points. Wretched is a hard investment in THIS much sustain when sustain is basically free for more than half of the classes.

fred4 · June 28

It's a very good set, but even though the proc condition looks trivially easy and it's back-barrable, it doesn't play in such a way that you have 100% uptime. The set only activates in combat, thus it typically won't be ready from pre-buffing, only in prolonged combat. Even then, while the 15s uptime is good and very useable, typical skills that fully proc the set, such as Hurricane, last longer at 20s. Depending on your build that leaves you with a choice to, for example, let Hurricane run out for maximum damage, or to overcast it for Vitality uptime. In other words, Vitality has an opportunity cost. It is quite small, but it does factor into how I weigh up using it in my builds.

TDVM · June 28

No

Theist_VII · June 28

Sustain is too casual in today’s game.

I wouldn’t nerf Wretched Vitality, I would be more in favor of buffing resource draining sets, and an overhaul of what should or shouldn’t be purgeable, because there is nothing worse than fighting a class with a cleanse while using a proc designed to counter Wretched with a 10+ second cooldown.

LittlePinkDot · June 28

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Sustain is too casual in today’s game.

I wouldn’t nerf Wretched Vitality, I would be more in favor of buffing resource draining sets, and an overhaul of what should or shouldn’t be purgeable, because there is nothing worse than fighting a class with a cleanse while using a proc designed to counter Wretched with a 10+ second cooldown.

I'm somebody who is always hard on my resources.

I hate any suggestion of nerfing sustain because it's just anti-fun.
Being prevented from using my skills as much as I would like is anti-fun. This goes for both PvP and PvE.

Hasenpfote · June 28

Wretched is fine, but there are other sets that do similar stuff.

Magicka: https://eso-sets.com/set/armor-of-the-seducer
Stamina: https://eso-sets.com/set/jailbreaker
Unique 18% resource regeneration: https://eso-sets.com/set/willows-path
Group 30% regeneration buff: https://eso-sets.com/set/apocryphal-inspiration
Stamina: https://eso-sets.com/set/battlefield-acrobat

Cost reduction is often stronger than resource regeneration.
For example if you have a basecost of 4000 Magicka, 10% means you save 400 Magicka, meaning if you use this ability once per second, it is equivalent to 800 Magicka Regenration. At a rate of every 2 seconds, that are 400 Magicka Regeenration.

Theist_VII · June 28

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Sustain is too casual in today’s game.

I wouldn’t nerf Wretched Vitality, I would be more in favor of buffing resource draining sets, and an overhaul of what should or shouldn’t be purgeable, because there is nothing worse than fighting a class with a cleanse while using a proc designed to counter Wretched with a 10+ second cooldown.

I'm somebody who is always hard on my resources.

I hate any suggestion of nerfing sustain because it's just anti-fun.
Being prevented from using my skills as much as I would like is anti-fun. This goes for both PvP and PvE.

While I agree stalling out sucks, resource management is a staple of the gameplay in ESO.

When there are no counters readily available to sets like Wretched Vitality, players casually spam their highest cost skills rather than when they are most meaningful.

Joy_Division · June 28

Telos_Tim wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Sustain is too casual in today’s game.

I wouldn’t nerf Wretched Vitality, I would be more in favor of buffing resource draining sets, and an overhaul of what should or shouldn’t be purgeable, because there is nothing worse than fighting a class with a cleanse while using a proc designed to counter Wretched with a 10+ second cooldown.

I'm somebody who is always hard on my resources.

I hate any suggestion of nerfing sustain because it's just anti-fun.
Being prevented from using my skills as much as I would like is anti-fun. This goes for both PvP and PvE.

While I agree stalling out sucks, resource management is a staple of the gameplay in ESO.

When there are no counters readily available to sets like Wretched Vitality, players casually spam their highest cost skills rather than when they are most meaningful.

We had this. It was called the Morrowind Patch. When a mass of players quit because ZOS thought it was best for players to just light and heavy attack. They also introduced poisons that increase cost of skills by 30%. Terrible.

As others have pointed out, Wretched Vitality is not even the most efficient means of resource management. It's just the easiest.

CameraBeardThePirate · June 28

Hasenpfote wrote: »

Wretched is fine, but there are other sets that do similar stuff.

Magicka: https://eso-sets.com/set/armor-of-the-seducer
Stamina: https://eso-sets.com/set/jailbreaker
Unique 18% resource regeneration: https://eso-sets.com/set/willows-path
Group 30% regeneration buff: https://eso-sets.com/set/apocryphal-inspiration
Stamina: https://eso-sets.com/set/battlefield-acrobat

Cost reduction is often stronger than resource regeneration.
For example if you have a basecost of 4000 Magicka, 10% means you save 400 Magicka, meaning if you use this ability once per second, it is equivalent to 800 Magicka Regenration. At a rate of every 2 seconds, that are 400 Magicka Regeenration.

None of those are anywhere close to Wretched.

CameraBeardThePirate · June 28

fred4 wrote: »

It's a very good set, but even though the proc condition looks trivially easy and it's back-barrable, it doesn't play in such a way that you have 100% uptime. The set only activates in combat, thus it typically won't be ready from pre-buffing, only in prolonged combat. Even then, while the 15s uptime is good and very useable, typical skills that fully proc the set, such as Hurricane, last longer at 20s. Depending on your build that leaves you with a choice to, for example, let Hurricane run out for maximum damage, or to overcast it for Vitality uptime. In other words, Vitality has an opportunity cost. It is quite small, but it does factor into how I weigh up using it in my builds.

If you don't have 100% uptime on Wretched, you're doing something wrong.

LittlePinkDot · June 28

Telos_Tim wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Sustain is too casual in today’s game.

I wouldn’t nerf Wretched Vitality, I would be more in favor of buffing resource draining sets, and an overhaul of what should or shouldn’t be purgeable, because there is nothing worse than fighting a class with a cleanse while using a proc designed to counter Wretched with a 10+ second cooldown.

I'm somebody who is always hard on my resources.

I hate any suggestion of nerfing sustain because it's just anti-fun.
Being prevented from using my skills as much as I would like is anti-fun. This goes for both PvP and PvE.

While I agree stalling out sucks, resource management is a staple of the gameplay in ESO.

When there are no counters readily available to sets like Wretched Vitality, players casually spam their highest cost skills rather than when they are most meaningful.

But doesn't that mean everyone can spam their highest cost skills? That would make it an even playing field for everyone regardless.

And if your highest skill isn't as good as another's highest skill, that means your skill needs a buff. It doesn't mean you ruin sustain for everyone in all content.

Sustain already sucks for new players. Nothing is worse or more boring than starting your first character and you can hardly do anything.

Theist_VII · June 30

Joy_Division wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Sustain is too casual in today’s game.

I wouldn’t nerf Wretched Vitality, I would be more in favor of buffing resource draining sets, and an overhaul of what should or shouldn’t be purgeable, because there is nothing worse than fighting a class with a cleanse while using a proc designed to counter Wretched with a 10+ second cooldown.

I'm somebody who is always hard on my resources.

I hate any suggestion of nerfing sustain because it's just anti-fun.
Being prevented from using my skills as much as I would like is anti-fun. This goes for both PvP and PvE.

While I agree stalling out sucks, resource management is a staple of the gameplay in ESO.

When there are no counters readily available to sets like Wretched Vitality, players casually spam their highest cost skills rather than when they are most meaningful.

We had this. It was called the Morrowind Patch. When a mass of players quit because ZOS thought it was best for players to just light and heavy attack. They also introduced poisons that increase cost of skills by 30%. Terrible.

As others have pointed out, Wretched Vitality is not even the most efficient means of resource management. It's just the easiest.

I was there for Morrowind.

While people like to hyper focus on the CP changes of that patch, there were several extremely unpopular things that happened.

First of which was that Battlegrounds released as no-cp, an extremely unpopular variant that players absolutely hated. The base classes were stripped of utility to afford Wardens, which were blatantly pay-to-win. Gameplay performance was horrid, with constant crashing and disconnects, you couldn’t even visit Vivec City on console without crashing, let alone trying to quest over there.

While sustain was a problem for us that update, it was the least of them, and that’s coming from someone who played a Magicka Templar back then, one of the hardest classes to sustain with back in 2017.

Duke_Falcon · July 1

I run Wretched, I've run it on every class I've played. I do get the hate of nerfing strong sets that everyone loves. So perhaps ZoS should buff other resource sustaining sets to be more in line with Wretched then. Lich, Magicka Furnace and a whole slueth of others not mentioned and some we have. Wretched provides 780 recoveries on a 5th piece bonus that's really easy to keep up 100% of the time in the hybrid meta the game has been turned into is an incredible amount of recoveries. No other set comes close.

TechMaybeHic · July 2

Different ways to skin a cat. As mentioned; you can run jewels of misrule then use a set for more resources to get similar numbers. The new mythic that replaces all other set bonuses, also gets you up there.

Outside of that, I feel procs are still more prevalent than Stat sets so I'm not really in favor of making it harder to run stat builds and I think wretched makes that easier

danko355 · July 2

No, it doesn’t

olsborg · July 2

/signed.
Also, sustain on most classes atm is a breeze.

Duke_Falcon · July 2

olsborg wrote: »

/signed.
Also, sustain on most classes atm is a breeze.

Not on mag sorc, umless you run wretched, its pretty much the only way to sustain on mag sorc because its almost 100% a stat build.

xylena_lazarow · July 3

nah nerf Necro instead

xylena_lazarow · July 3

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

This sets recoveries out preform all other sets

Strong, but never mandatory, and Roksa makes a strong argument for being more efficient, as it is both more compact and more dense. There's also niche options like Torc of Tonal Constancy, and utility double regen line sets like Dragon's Appetite or Phoenix Moth Theurge. Absolutely zero reason to nerf Wretched Vitality.

MEBengalsFan2001 · July 3

The mythical that provides 15% dmg reduction, 1300 dmg and 500 recovery is imo way more powerful than wretched. And it isn’t as broken compared to how imbalanced classes are. NB, DK, Wardens, Arcanist, and Sorc are all over performing if Templar and Necro are considered in a good balance spot. LMAO…

Game is so broken when it comes to class balance in pvp and even pve.

Duke_Falcon · July 3

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

This sets recoveries out preform all other sets

Strong, but never mandatory, and Roksa makes a strong argument for being more efficient, as it is both more compact and more dense. There's also niche options like Torc of Tonal Constancy, and utility double regen line sets like Dragon's Appetite or Phoenix Moth Theurge. Absolutely zero reason to nerf Wretched Vitality.

The only one of those sets that comes close to preforming as well as Wretched is Roksa. You can test it, actions are louder than words. Stop using Wretched for 2 weeks and substitute in one of those other sets. You'll find out pretty quickly how strong Wretched is.

Like I said earlier, in hindsight its probably better to buff all the other recovery sets to put them more in line with Wretched than nerf a well beloved set.

Joy_Division · July 3

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

This sets recoveries out preform all other sets

Strong, but never mandatory, and Roksa makes a strong argument for being more efficient, as it is both more compact and more dense. There's also niche options like Torc of Tonal Constancy, and utility double regen line sets like Dragon's Appetite or Phoenix Moth Theurge. Absolutely zero reason to nerf Wretched Vitality.

The only one of those sets that comes close to preforming as well as Wretched is Roksa. You can test it, actions are louder than words. Stop using Wretched for 2 weeks and substitute in one of those other sets. You'll find out pretty quickly how strong Wretched is.

Like I said earlier, in hindsight its probably better to buff all the other recovery sets to put them more in line with Wretched than nerf a well beloved set.

Already tested. We had this discussion two years ago. This is a fair synopsis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9clYlfPATQE&t=1047s

Duke_Falcon · July 3

Well God for bid, but maybe Sorc Sustain needs buffed. lol Because unless you camp on Dark Conversion all the time you will run out of resources really fast. I spend more time spamming Dark Conversion sometimes than fighting if I'm not wearing Wretched. The only reason I can camp on my Dark Conversion skill now is because the damage shields will keep me alive while I do it. I think all the other classes sustain pretty well on their own, with out spamming a skill for it, primarily because by design they don't have to. Its just annoying as hell to have to hit it 5 times in a row to sustain on the class. I'd rather it was not a burst sustain skill and a more consistent over time. I've looked really hard for other recovery sets to run and nothing comes close.

Joy_Division · July 3

That's part of the issue. Dark Exchange is not meant to be spammed because a good chunk of it' benefit derives over 20 seconds. Each class has a similar resource over time mechanic they can't circumvent. Templars will always get 480 from Rune no matter what, DK Combustion procs every 3 seconds, etc.

So most people find themselves having to run a sustain set or use food that sacrifices resource pools for sustain (e.g., Smoked Bear's Haunch). Wretched is easiest in that it requires practically zero effort which is why it's the best option for many players. But Roksa only takes up two slot and combined with sustain food will provide enough resources for any class provided efficient and disciplined gameplay (i.e,, it's harder than Wretched, but the payoff is potentially better). This is what I think Wretched is ideally balanced: it's good enough that I feel sufficiently powerful using the set, but if I played more efficiently and did some theorycrafting, I would get more value from other options.

For sorcs, Wretched is a more natural fit because Chudan frees up bar space and they really would like max stat food instead of sustain for max magicka. My sorcerer uses it. So I would continue wearing it. It doesn;t make the set OP, rather the set just happens to fit the peculiarities of the sorcerer class. My DK, for instance, does not use Wretched as there are more efficient options.

TechMaybeHic · July 3

I'm surprised to hear sorc as having a sustain issue TBH. Maybe it's because I don't play mine that often, but it would seem that should mean I have a harder time with it due to inexperience, but I have found it incredibly manageable as mag with ranged heavy attacks, kiteability, and deal/exchange. Only time I've noticed it is if I've been too liberal with my off pool from big pressure and probably dealed too much

Dagoth_Rac · July 3

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I'm surprised to hear sorc as having a sustain issue TBH. Maybe it's because I don't play mine that often, but it would seem that should mean I have a harder time with it due to inexperience, but I have found it incredibly manageable as mag with ranged heavy attacks, kiteability, and deal/exchange. Only time I've noticed it is if I've been too liberal with my off pool from big pressure and probably dealed too much

Heavy attacks are bad for DPS in harder endgame content. So the problem with mag sorc is that to sustain in endgame, you have to give up too much DPS compared to other classes. So mag sorc can do good but not great DPS easier than other classes/builds, but really struggle with top tier DPS numbers.

TechMaybeHic · July 3

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I'm surprised to hear sorc as having a sustain issue TBH. Maybe it's because I don't play mine that often, but it would seem that should mean I have a harder time with it due to inexperience, but I have found it incredibly manageable as mag with ranged heavy attacks, kiteability, and deal/exchange. Only time I've noticed it is if I've been too liberal with my off pool from big pressure and probably dealed too much

Heavy attacks are bad for DPS in harder endgame content. So the problem with mag sorc is that to sustain in endgame, you have to give up too much DPS compared to other classes. So mag sorc can do good but not great DPS easier than other classes/builds, but really struggle with top tier DPS numbers.

Oh. I've been told so much that things are only nerfed for PvP complaints so I wasnt even thinking PvE in this nerf thread

xylena_lazarow · July 3

Duke_Falcon wrote: »

The only one of those sets that comes close to preforming as well as Wretched is Roksa

Roksa is what I use. It lets me run a lot more damage, with more build layouts possible. Wretched absolutely should be the strongest sustain set because an entire 5pc is a much larger investment and opportunity cost.