Ranged burst proc stacking

xylena_lazarow

Tarnished, Anthelmir's Construct, Scavenging Demise, etc... even as a dot and proc enjoyer, I'm gonna say these should all be restricted to melee range, and/or not allowed to proc off dots. When people talk about damage procs being "set and forget" or "playing the game for you" this sort of thing is what they mean, because you can deal absurd amounts of stacked burst proc damage every 8 seconds from absolute safety (range + stealth + behind zerg) with nothing but a heavy attack and a poison arrow. It also flies in the face of previous design decisions, like all that work they did adding a one second cooldown to a curated burst proc list that they seem to have forgotten about.

Bushido2513

But on the other side you have tons of proc heals and self heals. Depending on group composition all of the above can hit a player and they won't even really feel it.

There's also a good amount of players that obviously enjoy the ranged damage they can deal that allows them to enjoy some level of combat without as much risk. It's a careful interesting balance situation.

JustLovely

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tarnished, Anthelmir's Construct, Scavenging Demise, etc... even as a dot and proc enjoyer, I'm gonna say these should all be restricted to melee range, and/or not allowed to proc off dots. When people talk about damage procs being "set and forget" or "playing the game for you" this sort of thing is what they mean, because you can deal absurd amounts of stacked burst proc damage every 8 seconds from absolute safety (range + stealth + behind zerg) with nothing but a heavy attack and a poison arrow. It also flies in the face of previous design decisions, like all that work they did adding a one second cooldown to a curated burst proc list that they seem to have forgotten about.

Couldn't agree more.

It doesn't help that many if not most of the players using these gear combo's are NB's attacking from stealth and from range.

JustLovely

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But on the other side you have tons of proc heals and self heals. Depending on group composition all of the above can hit a player and they won't even really feel it.

There's also a good amount of players that obviously enjoy the ranged damage they can deal that allows them to enjoy some level of combat without as much risk. It's a careful interesting balance situation.

Not everyone in Cyrodiil runs in a group.

Players enjoy the range proc (usually from stealth) because it's too effective. They get kills without having to even engage in a fight. They enjoy the risk free ganking, not actually engaging in fights.

Theignson

Ganking used to be high risk, high reward; you'd have to stealth right up to someone, and if your gank failed, you were dead (before the huge Healthy Offerings buff made NB so tanky).

With this ranged ganking plus stealth, its low risk, high reward.

Just another example of how PvP has gotten out of balance. Sorc is another example of this, with Hardened Ward Sorc is very effective at ranged fighting. Since U41 I've only played my Mag Sorc, it is simply way too strong. Mag Sorc used to take some skill, now it is easy mode

ZeroAxis

I personally prefer melee ganking as the damage output is much higher than at range. In a lot of cases, though, even ranged burst ganking is high risk. Once you unload, you are going to get targeted with detect pots and sentry (which are great counter plays that need to be in the game). As a ganker, I try to minimize reinforcements to zergs and/or ball groups (which, in my opinion, are also totally fine. Organized groups are fun and require a lot of work, too). I agree that some of the tools need to be toned down, though. The issue is, with healing where it is at, it’s hard to say what will and won’t work. Some folks can go from 5% health to 100% instantly. Truly a pickle regardless of what side of the fence you are on.

xylena_lazarow

ZeroAxis wrote: »

I personally prefer melee ganking as the damage output is much higher than at range

The scariest individual gankers are the good melee ones, but melee ganking is also fair because it requires high risk on the ganker's part. The problem with the range gankers is the sheer number of them running around, and the lack of risk involved. It's never just one guy shooting you from absolute safety with 20k proc stack bursts.

Bushido2513

JustLovely wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But on the other side you have tons of proc heals and self heals. Depending on group composition all of the above can hit a player and they won't even really feel it.

There's also a good amount of players that obviously enjoy the ranged damage they can deal that allows them to enjoy some level of combat without as much risk. It's a careful interesting balance situation.

Not everyone in Cyrodiil runs in a group.

Players enjoy the range proc (usually from stealth) because it's too effective. They get kills without having to even engage in a fight. They enjoy the risk free ganking, not actually engaging in fights.

I've long been saying that the game encourages grouping up and yes if you run solo or even too small of a group you're going to have to deal with a harder fight, ranged or not.

Durham

ZeroAxis wrote: »

I personally prefer melee ganking as the damage output is much higher than at range. In a lot of cases, though, even ranged burst ganking is high risk. Once you unload, you are going to get targeted with detect pots and sentry (which are great counter plays that need to be in the game). As a ganker, I try to minimize reinforcements to zergs and/or ball groups (which, in my opinion, are also totally fine. Organized groups are fun and require a lot of work, too). I agree that some of the tools need to be toned down, though. The issue is, with healing where it is at, it’s hard to say what will and won’t work. Some folks can go from 5% health to 100% instantly. Truly a pickle regardless of what side of the fence you are on.

Only on Nightblades is this true, because they have cloak. Melee for the other classes is now limited to building fights so they can use LOS. They simply can't compete with the amount of range damage out there.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ZeroAxis wrote: »

I personally prefer melee ganking as the damage output is much higher than at range

The scariest individual gankers are the good melee ones, but melee ganking is also fair because it requires high risk on the ganker's part. The problem with the range gankers is the sheer number of them running around, and the lack of risk involved. It's never just one guy shooting you from absolute safety with 20k proc stack bursts.

This is true though a bit more notified l nullified when you also have a group.

Durham

Destruction staff debuff that lasts for 16 years and procs damage at no cost is to good and pushed destruction staff above all melee damage atm.

-Duel wield has a great AOE execution. That's about it.
-Two handers you have Dizzy that is heavily affected by lag. It's very easily avoided. The execution is strong only at very-low health but misses often.
- Sword and Shield < Ice staff.

There has been a damage creep over the past few years with ranged abilities with no drawbacks while Melee has a huge drawback it's only 6 to 7 meters!

The game is turning into a first-person shooter and ball groups.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

This is true though a bit more notified l nullified when you also have a group.

I usually run in 3-4 player smallscale groups with cross healing. There's just that much range spam, because players figure out they can launch 20k+ ranged proc stack bursts from absolute safety every 8 seconds with 2 buttons. You aren't nullifying this until you run full ball group, which is a ridiculous demand just to counter 2 button ranged proc stacks.

xylena_lazarow

Durham wrote: »

The game is turning into a first-person shooter and ball groups.

Right? Melee gets nerfs and cast times, and you still gotta aim. Range gets instant attacks, buffs, and auto aim.

Absolutely insane they nerf MDW just to replace it with this load of guar dung.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

This is true though a bit more notified l nullified when you also have a group.

I usually run in 3-4 player smallscale groups with cross healing. There's just that much range spam, because players figure out they can launch 20k+ ranged proc stack bursts from absolute safety every 8 seconds with 2 buttons. You aren't nullifying this until you run full ball group, which is a ridiculous demand just to counter 2 button ranged proc stacks.

The problem is that no matter what you do in this game players and take the path of least resistance. If you want to survive in a smaller group you will still have to figure out ways to deal with groups of players that are going for the easiest kill.

You'll have to stay close to groups of your faction, keeps, los, build tankier, etc. I'm not saying the game should be built that way just that the direction of the game has been going this way for quite some time now.

Jsmalls

Yeah Tarnished and Anthelmirs are definitely an issue. Proc conditions can be guaranteed with little to no effort.

Then if you survive the burst and try to focus them they disappear into their group. It's pretty frustrating and feels like there is limited counterplay to it.

I second the whole giving a delay (which they seem to be forgetting their own rule) on instant damage procs. Selene has a delay, scavenging maw has a delay, etc etc.

It really just feels like these new procs are purposefully unbalanced to push sales of new content. Which is beyond scummy.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

This is true though a bit more notified l nullified when you also have a group.

I usually run in 3-4 player smallscale groups with cross healing. There's just that much range spam, because players figure out they can launch 20k+ ranged proc stack bursts from absolute safety every 8 seconds with 2 buttons. You aren't nullifying this until you run full ball group, which is a ridiculous demand just to counter 2 button ranged proc stacks.

The problem is that no matter what you do in this game players and take the path of least resistance. If you want to survive in a smaller group you will still have to figure out ways to deal with groups of players that are going for the easiest kill.

You'll have to stay close to groups of your faction, keeps, los, build tankier, etc. I'm not saying the game should be built that way just that the direction of the game has been going this way for quite some time now.

Then they also complain about cross-healing lol. There's nothing satisfying people unfortunately.

TechMaybeHic

Really getting ridiculous how often I hear something is balalanced if you have higher numbers to counter it.

Range damage is just too close to melee damage and that just should not be if you intend to have a game that has melee used at all

BetterAtChess

A few years ago ZOS did a pass over ranged damage, nerfing very hard hitting skills like shock clench, flame reach and force pulse. The changes seemed reasonably fair at the time, given that ranged damage had less risk than melee.

Unfortunately, unchecked power creep has made ranged damage OP again, especially when you throw proc cheese into the mix. Just about every fight I get into, my eardrums are assaulted by the sound of many tarnished procs from tryhard nbs hoping to shoot me in the back...from a safe distance of course, and then straight back into stealth.

PVP is so bad right now.

TybaltKaine

I get the point of this thread, but I have a counter-point and a bit of an observation.

If over performing proc sets are the problem for PVP, play in a No Proc campaign.

"No Proc is dead"

Because everyone wants to have their cake (proc sets) but doesn't want anyone else to have any.

If the proc set META is such a huge issue, go to the No Proc side for a while, get some folks to tag along and now you have a viable, pain free alternative to enjoy PVP until the over performing sets get wrangled.

Just my 2 cents.

Firstmep

I think the problem is that a nb wearing 3 procsets will still incap you for 13-15k thru 30k res and rallying cry up.
These procs op mentioned are strong but theres a reason you dont see templars or dks rocking tarnished anthelmir.

xylena_lazarow

Firstmep wrote: »

I think the problem is that a nb wearing 3 procsets will still incap you for 13-15k thru 30k res and rallying cry up.
These procs op mentioned are strong but theres a reason you dont see templars or dks rocking tarnished anthelmir.

Nope. Incap is fair because the NB has to take a big risk, so there should be a big reward. These ranged stealth guys are taking absolutely zero risk, no you don't see DKs doing it but you definitely see Sorcs doing it. If there's no risk, there should be no reward, that's why rooftop light attack spam is such a meme (and should be).

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

I think the problem is that a nb wearing 3 procsets will still incap you for 13-15k thru 30k res and rallying cry up.
These procs op mentioned are strong but theres a reason you dont see templars or dks rocking tarnished anthelmir.

Nope. Incap is fair because the NB has to take a big risk, so there should be a big reward. These ranged stealth guys are taking absolutely zero risk, no you don't see DKs doing it but you definitely see Sorcs doing it. If there's no risk, there should be no reward, that's why rooftop light attack spam is such a meme (and should be).

Im assuming he meant the bow proc and not incap, but I could be wrong

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Im assuming he meant the bow proc and not incap, but I could be wrong

There's a really heinous play pattern I've noticed with the spectral bow lately. NB charges it up with ranged light attacks from absolute safety, goes invis, then dumps a stealth spectral bow combo on a player on the other side of the field who the NB never even had to risk engaging. Still somehow feels more fair than ranged burst proc stacking.

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Im assuming he meant the bow proc and not incap, but I could be wrong

There's a really heinous play pattern I've noticed with the spectral bow lately. NB charges it up with ranged light attacks from absolute safety, goes invis, then dumps a stealth spectral bow combo on a player on the other side of the field who the NB never even had to risk engaging. Still somehow feels more fair than ranged burst proc stacking.

Well, if they want that 20% buff to it from their ultimate, they have to get in close. I think that is the last bastion for melee over ranged. While Meteor is OK; the DOT can be walked out of making Dawnbreaker still better. But with mobility, its not hard to just zip in for the ulti. Probably going to for meteor anyway to kill the chance to block

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Well, if they want that 20% buff to it from their ultimate, they have to get in close.

Yeah that's why I said it still feels more fair than ranged burst proc stacking. Between having to actually aim your attacks and dealing with idiotic cast times, huge burst damage seems justified for melee. Meanwhile, ranged players get auto aim and instant cast. Aren't the CASTers supposed to be the ones with CAST times because range makes it safe to CAST? While melee fighters are supposed to be fast, strong, and dextrous, the opposite of these clumsy slow melee cast animations?

reiverx

At this point in time pvp is like being in a bottle factory that just exploded.

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Really getting ridiculous how often I hear something is balalanced if you have higher numbers to counter it.

Range damage is just too close to melee damage and that just should not be if you intend to have a game that has melee used at all

Just really depends on what the game designers are balancing for. I'd say right now you need equal or near equal numbers to have a decent encounter if you're not geared towards solo.

I play solo primarily so I just work around the difficulties that come with that in this game with the understanding of that the developers seem to be encouraging

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just really depends on what the game designers are balancing for.

Q4 PvP update: new weapon class: Assault Rifle

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just really depends on what the game designers are balancing for.

Q4 PvP update: new weapon class: Assault Rifle

Sometimes I put on silver shards just to feel like I'm shooting a gun lol. I guess that's more of a really weak shotgun though.

Just_Attivi

I tend to rotate which character I 'main' each campaign, and this campaign it is NB. As someone who is enjoying the above described sets on my NB this campaign, I can 100% agree there is a problem (as hilarious as it is from my POV to gank a player and the horse they rode in on, its.... pretty busted).

I don't think Anthelmirs construct is a problem per say, as the axe is in fact dodgeable after a heavy attack hits you, assuming the latency gods arent angry with you. so there is viable counterplay, as difficult as it may be (which I think is why it doesnt follow the 1 second proc timer rule thingie we had awhile back... it /has counterplay/ as impossible as it may be).

I dont think Tarnished by itself is a problem either, though it is definitely a very loaded set. but it is an unavoidable proc.

The issue comes into play that both can proc off of the same attack, causing all of the damage to pretty much happen *right now* (enter whispers calling you a cheater using 5 skills at once etc etc).

I think Anthelmirs Proc'ing the axe needs to trigger the 1 second cooldown on offensive proc sets, forcing tarnished to happen or be available 1 second later on a skill (id argue against anthelmirs getting the 1 second delay as it requires a lengthy full heavy to proc, that would be miserable to use in any double proc set up if your heavy doesnt proc it due to millisecond timing errors). But I do recall there being a thing about unavoidable proc's getting a 1 second delay between activations, and these do seem to bypass that.

HOWEVER, counterpoint: with so many groups of sorcs and arcanists with 20k+ shield stacks, and 50k HP polar wind spamming wardens running around.... it is really nice to have a tool to handle that without being a massive zerg.

silky_soft

Removing the free 8m range from battlespirit would be a good start.