What is happening with sorcs?

Major_Toughness

Urzigurumash

Yeah great post Static, really good explanations there.

It accords well with what I've always said about tank classes in PvP, an argument probably familiar to all who know my name,

They're not supposed to have escape tools, they're supposed to facetank not kite, their burst is supposed to be secondary to their pressure.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Sorc > NB > Warden > Plar > Arc > DK > Necro

99% agree, though I'd consider Plar/Arc/DK close enough to be on the same tier.

I considered it, but I ended up putting Plar over Arc and DK. My reasoning for that is Plar's burst combo is still better than both Arc and DK. While DK does have potential burst with Fossilize + Whip, it doesn't have execute power like a Plar. A Plar with Javelin + Crescent (which is a really cheap and hard hitting AoE ult with a strong AoE DoT) + Jesus beam will have more kill potential than a DK.

I put Arc over DK because survivability is more important than damage in Cyrodiil. The majority of players you run into in Cyrodiil aren't really good at staying alive, but they can still overwhelm and kill you. A class that has average damage but exceptional survivability generally will do better than a class that has better damage but average survivability.

Urzigurumash

StaticWave wrote: »

A class that has average damage but exceptional survivability generally will do better than a class that has better damage but average survivability.

Doesn't work out so well for Necro. Do you think Necro still has the best survivability these days?

A year or so ago you told me that you'd run nothing but Corrosive if you had it on Sorc.

Where you think you'd put DK if Corrosive didn't disable Ult Gen as they decided was the fix?

Major_Toughness

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

A class that has average damage but exceptional survivability generally will do better than a class that has better damage but average survivability.

Doesn't work out so well for Necro. Do you think Necro still has the best survivability these days?

A year or so ago you told me that you'd run nothing but Corrosive if you had it on Sorc.

Where you think you'd put DK if Corrosive didn't disable Ult Gen as they decided was the fix?

Probably second, behind Sorc still.

Tommy_The_Gun

What is happening with sorcs ?

Well, long story short: Sorc mains were crying out to nerf NB, so ZOS was like: hold my beer.

...and buffed Sorcs to the point in which they no longer cry to nerf stuff but they keep quite hoping they themselves won't get nerfed...

At least this is what I have observed lol

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

I put Arc over DK because survivability is more important than damage in Cyrodiil.

I'd say survival separates mid players from bad, but damage separates good players from mid.

DK's strong 1v1 damage makes them more threatening to me than Arc or Plar at equal skill, but yeah DK has less survival and utility. Plar has better burst than Arc, Arc has better pressure than Plar. Do you find more granularity on tier lists more helpful for understanding the metagame? I usually lean towards less granularity when so many variables are involved.

Luna_the_Rat

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

4-6k frags procs is really nothing special at all. That's a 3k hard cast frags at best which is barely above what my pure tank sorc build puts out for frags against other brawler builds...

As for this screenshot, it really is not a good example, you had 3 different sorcs on you at the same time (possibly even more than just those 3 with IC being crowded lately to farm scripts), probably all casting much more that lead to this death than what is shown here.
3v1 will always put out significant damage that is very hard to survive against (especially if the 3 are even remotely competent on somewhat decent builds).

While I agree that ward is very strong right now and that healing in general needs addressing, what is shown here is really nothing special or even worth mentioning.

The same build on a NB using merc resolve against squishy players "with no armor" will be easily put out at minimum 20k+ (more likely 25k+) and 35k+ if merc resolve crits. NB also has its own 1 button heal (that has existed for 2 years at this point with zero signs of it ever getting balanced) that takes it from 0 to 100 instantly.

"While I agree that ward is very strong right now and that healing in general needs addressing."

This is the main agree for me. I would argue healing in general should be made worse in PVP Battle Spirit once more, tone it down an other notch. Talented Nightblades do feel hard to fight, but it is only the talented ones I have fought that are threatening.

"NB are currently able to put out 8-10k merc resolves on tanks, especially when running a build that "dies to the first light attack"."

I would argue that is balanced because the NB is circumnavigating a weakness to deal good damage. 64 Attribute HP Sorc can still do decent damage, are certainly unkillable without far too high of a DPS Check, and best mobility + stun. Id submit that the other classes besides Sorc/Arc feel like they have strengths and weaknesses, whereas any living person irrespective of skill or talent can see results with a Sorc on this patch. There isnt a class as raw imbalanced / overtuned as Sorc / Arc atm.

xylena_lazarow

Luna_the_Rat wrote: »

There isnt a class as raw imbalanced / overtuned as Sorc / Arc atm.

Sorc yeah but only because of Hardened Ward.

Arcs are tanky but have a bad PvP damage kit with slow skills that struggle to hit moving targets, and bring little to the PvP table in general outside their group shield niche (and the annoying stun).