Hardened Ward is OP In PvP

ketsparrowhawk · July 15

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Hardened Ward is pretty much the only thing that is making Sorc Tank viable in PvE, and now that Necro tank has been getting worse and worse each patch, Sorc has pretty much taken it's place. Which I honestly prefer, because of how long Necro was the only class worth using as an OT.

I don't play PvP, so I don't know what exactly makes skills strong and whatnot, but removing the heal from the skill would pretty much make the whole thing useless.

Wonder what would be a good change that wouldn't completely kill Sorc in PvE, but would nerf it in PvP?

Sorc tanks have been viable for most of the history of this game. Not every class has to be competitive in every role. DK's have limited ranged offensive options and for good reason.. their defensive kit would make that overpowered.

Having your only burst heal be tied to either not being able to block while doing it, or using two slots to get the dinosaur dude was not viable. Sure you could clear veteran content with that but nothing past that.

While I agree that not every class should be able to do every role equally well, being forced to run necromancer off tank for 5 years in a row was getting extremely boring.

I'm just saying that there is quite a lot of people who do not play PvP and are really happy about the state of Hardened Ward right now. That's why I was trying to get people who play both game modes to come up with ideas on actually fixing the skill instead of just complaining. Though complaining is much much easier.

I play both PVE and PVP extensively. Sorcs were able to tank before hardened ward was buffed. You said yourself they can clear vet content and not every class needs to be equally good at everything. So there you have it.Trial bosses can't complain about classes being ridiculously overpowered so ofc PVE mains are happy about being able to faceroll everything with little effort.

That's one way to say you haven't tanked any difficult content on a sorc. Sorc is in no way the safest or the most durable tank to go with right now. Arc and DK are just way more better at sustaining damage than Sorc is, and that's why you mainly see it as an off tank.

And you saying that sorcs were able to tank before makes me think that we have two completely different definitions on the word 'viable'. Sure you could do it, you just had no reason to. Sorc being a useable tank right now it so much more healthier for the tanking scene.

Me saying that not every class needs to be equally good at all roles does not mean that it's fine that necro is the only class that is viable as an off tank. It mostly just means that I'm not going to go cry for ZoS to buff NB mitigation and sustain alongside with templar, or that DK needs much better heals etc.

There will always be one single "best" at any role. To me "viable" means that it can be done. Sorc is a ranged dps class that "can" tank and that has been the case for years. Hardened ward may make it easier but it was already viable. There doesn't need to be a "good" reason to bring a sorc tank other than that they can do it.. and they can. Just like we don't need a good reason to bring a ranged DK dps.

At any rate this is a pvp discussion and this is derailing.

With that logic everything is viable everywhere and no changes are needed anywhere. I wouldn't really call necro to be viable in PvP even though you can play it.

Until ZoS separates PvE and PvP there is no reason to separate PvE and PvP discussion. As much as it annoys me, a change in one is a change in the another. So discussing balance on a vital skill while only thinking of one side is just useless. Sure you can complain as much as you want, but I wouldn't be surprised if the nerf you so desperately want might not be coming, because a lot of people are really happy with the state of the skill right now.

That's why I asked previously if people actually have some ideas which would be considered a nerf that is large enough to matter, while not destroying the skill in PvE.

But if you feel like just complaining without actually seeking a solution then you do you. Maybe I should start making post on NB needing double the damage they currently have to be better than a companion in PvE.

You'd be wrong. Necro is in fact very viable in PvP. They just have much more limited build options than other classes but that isn't to say you can't make an extremely powerful necro.. you def can.

All classes are in fact viable in all PVE roles currently, to varying degrees. The only need for balance changes is for the sake of "changing things up" not to achieve actual balance. We're more or less already there. Again sorcs should not be as capable of a tank as necro while still maintaining their ranged offensive kit and extreme mobility. Not gonna change any pvpers mind on that.

I offered the solution. Delete the heal from hardened ward. You'll still be able to tank I promise. Maybe zos can implement some other tool to help sorc tanking but that is not within the scope of this discussion.

ketsparrowhawk · July 15

ViggyBoi wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Hello!

Sorcs have the best ranged offense in the game and supreme mobility.

Ket

The entire ranged sorc burst combo is completely countered by one roll dodge, this has been an issue even before the ward buffs and still holds true, its just that their lack of healing is no longer exploitable and can have multiple attempts to go for it now. Vibrant Shroud also is not a good burst heal. Its around the same cost as combat prayer with not as good secondary effects. Nice niche skill for pve support, but not at all on par with breath of life/healthy offering/etc.

NB's entire offense is countered by one roll dodge. Sorcs can just keep spamming their combo forever and ever until it all hits. And vibrant shroud is quite viable. Once you factor in the blood magic passive it's on par with the likes of Breath of Life for the caster. I'd argue the secondary effects are superior. Major Maim + Minor Vitality (two rare buffs) vs Minor Resolve + Minor Berserk (2 common buffs).. and again for the caster it's a stronger heal due to the blood magic passive. I've been using it on my sorc in BG's and it performs perfectly great. If hardened ward had never gotten it's buff sorcs would be happy with Vibrant Shroud I'd wager.

BananaBender · July 15

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Hardened Ward is pretty much the only thing that is making Sorc Tank viable in PvE, and now that Necro tank has been getting worse and worse each patch, Sorc has pretty much taken it's place. Which I honestly prefer, because of how long Necro was the only class worth using as an OT.

I don't play PvP, so I don't know what exactly makes skills strong and whatnot, but removing the heal from the skill would pretty much make the whole thing useless.

Wonder what would be a good change that wouldn't completely kill Sorc in PvE, but would nerf it in PvP?

Sorc tanks have been viable for most of the history of this game. Not every class has to be competitive in every role. DK's have limited ranged offensive options and for good reason.. their defensive kit would make that overpowered.

Having your only burst heal be tied to either not being able to block while doing it, or using two slots to get the dinosaur dude was not viable. Sure you could clear veteran content with that but nothing past that.

While I agree that not every class should be able to do every role equally well, being forced to run necromancer off tank for 5 years in a row was getting extremely boring.

I'm just saying that there is quite a lot of people who do not play PvP and are really happy about the state of Hardened Ward right now. That's why I was trying to get people who play both game modes to come up with ideas on actually fixing the skill instead of just complaining. Though complaining is much much easier.

I play both PVE and PVP extensively. Sorcs were able to tank before hardened ward was buffed. You said yourself they can clear vet content and not every class needs to be equally good at everything. So there you have it.Trial bosses can't complain about classes being ridiculously overpowered so ofc PVE mains are happy about being able to faceroll everything with little effort.

That's one way to say you haven't tanked any difficult content on a sorc. Sorc is in no way the safest or the most durable tank to go with right now. Arc and DK are just way more better at sustaining damage than Sorc is, and that's why you mainly see it as an off tank.

And you saying that sorcs were able to tank before makes me think that we have two completely different definitions on the word 'viable'. Sure you could do it, you just had no reason to. Sorc being a useable tank right now it so much more healthier for the tanking scene.

Me saying that not every class needs to be equally good at all roles does not mean that it's fine that necro is the only class that is viable as an off tank. It mostly just means that I'm not going to go cry for ZoS to buff NB mitigation and sustain alongside with templar, or that DK needs much better heals etc.

There will always be one single "best" at any role. To me "viable" means that it can be done. Sorc is a ranged dps class that "can" tank and that has been the case for years. Hardened ward may make it easier but it was already viable. There doesn't need to be a "good" reason to bring a sorc tank other than that they can do it.. and they can. Just like we don't need a good reason to bring a ranged DK dps.

At any rate this is a pvp discussion and this is derailing.

With that logic everything is viable everywhere and no changes are needed anywhere. I wouldn't really call necro to be viable in PvP even though you can play it.

Until ZoS separates PvE and PvP there is no reason to separate PvE and PvP discussion. As much as it annoys me, a change in one is a change in the another. So discussing balance on a vital skill while only thinking of one side is just useless. Sure you can complain as much as you want, but I wouldn't be surprised if the nerf you so desperately want might not be coming, because a lot of people are really happy with the state of the skill right now.

That's why I asked previously if people actually have some ideas which would be considered a nerf that is large enough to matter, while not destroying the skill in PvE.

But if you feel like just complaining without actually seeking a solution then you do you. Maybe I should start making post on NB needing double the damage they currently have to be better than a companion in PvE.

You'd be wrong. Necro is in fact very viable in PvP. They just have much more limited build options than other classes but that isn't to say you can't make an extremely powerful necro.. you def can.

All classes are in fact viable in all PVE roles currently, to varying degrees. The only need for balance changes is for the sake of "changing things up" not to achieve actual balance. We're more or less already there. Again sorcs should not be as capable of a tank as necro while still maintaining their ranged offensive kit and extreme mobility. Not gonna change any pvpers mind on that.

I offered the solution. Delete the heal from hardened ward. You'll still be able to tank I promise. Maybe zos can implement some other tool to help sorc tanking but that is not within the scope of this discussion.

I do disagree on your definition of a class being viable, but that can be a topic for another time.

As you yourself just stated, changes are made to keep things interesting. Having a class that isn't necromancer as an off tank is that highly needed and long overdue change that has been missing.

I have not, and I will not try to change any PvPers mind on sorc, it might as well be the most obnoxious and annoying class and playstyle, dont know, don't care. What I am just saying is that removing the heal would be a horrible change and I really hope they don't listen to the PvP community on this.

What strikes me as weird is that even spending only a weekend on the forums, it feels like everyone is complaining about healing and shielding in PvP (and gankers). Instead of nuking the individual skills, wouldn't it be better to just nerf stacked healing and shielding in general when Battle Spirit is active? I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this complex plan, but to me that seems to be the most obvious course of action.

xylena_lazarow · July 15

Iriidius wrote: »

arcanist can create crux pretty fast getting 1 crux per 5 seconds

If this is pretty fast, we're playing different games, and you don't wanna know what a Sorc does in 5 seconds.

ketsparrowhawk · July 15

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Hardened Ward is pretty much the only thing that is making Sorc Tank viable in PvE, and now that Necro tank has been getting worse and worse each patch, Sorc has pretty much taken it's place. Which I honestly prefer, because of how long Necro was the only class worth using as an OT.

I don't play PvP, so I don't know what exactly makes skills strong and whatnot, but removing the heal from the skill would pretty much make the whole thing useless.

Wonder what would be a good change that wouldn't completely kill Sorc in PvE, but would nerf it in PvP?

Sorc tanks have been viable for most of the history of this game. Not every class has to be competitive in every role. DK's have limited ranged offensive options and for good reason.. their defensive kit would make that overpowered.

Having your only burst heal be tied to either not being able to block while doing it, or using two slots to get the dinosaur dude was not viable. Sure you could clear veteran content with that but nothing past that.

While I agree that not every class should be able to do every role equally well, being forced to run necromancer off tank for 5 years in a row was getting extremely boring.

I'm just saying that there is quite a lot of people who do not play PvP and are really happy about the state of Hardened Ward right now. That's why I was trying to get people who play both game modes to come up with ideas on actually fixing the skill instead of just complaining. Though complaining is much much easier.

I play both PVE and PVP extensively. Sorcs were able to tank before hardened ward was buffed. You said yourself they can clear vet content and not every class needs to be equally good at everything. So there you have it.Trial bosses can't complain about classes being ridiculously overpowered so ofc PVE mains are happy about being able to faceroll everything with little effort.

That's one way to say you haven't tanked any difficult content on a sorc. Sorc is in no way the safest or the most durable tank to go with right now. Arc and DK are just way more better at sustaining damage than Sorc is, and that's why you mainly see it as an off tank.

And you saying that sorcs were able to tank before makes me think that we have two completely different definitions on the word 'viable'. Sure you could do it, you just had no reason to. Sorc being a useable tank right now it so much more healthier for the tanking scene.

Me saying that not every class needs to be equally good at all roles does not mean that it's fine that necro is the only class that is viable as an off tank. It mostly just means that I'm not going to go cry for ZoS to buff NB mitigation and sustain alongside with templar, or that DK needs much better heals etc.

There will always be one single "best" at any role. To me "viable" means that it can be done. Sorc is a ranged dps class that "can" tank and that has been the case for years. Hardened ward may make it easier but it was already viable. There doesn't need to be a "good" reason to bring a sorc tank other than that they can do it.. and they can. Just like we don't need a good reason to bring a ranged DK dps.

At any rate this is a pvp discussion and this is derailing.

With that logic everything is viable everywhere and no changes are needed anywhere. I wouldn't really call necro to be viable in PvP even though you can play it.

Until ZoS separates PvE and PvP there is no reason to separate PvE and PvP discussion. As much as it annoys me, a change in one is a change in the another. So discussing balance on a vital skill while only thinking of one side is just useless. Sure you can complain as much as you want, but I wouldn't be surprised if the nerf you so desperately want might not be coming, because a lot of people are really happy with the state of the skill right now.

That's why I asked previously if people actually have some ideas which would be considered a nerf that is large enough to matter, while not destroying the skill in PvE.

But if you feel like just complaining without actually seeking a solution then you do you. Maybe I should start making post on NB needing double the damage they currently have to be better than a companion in PvE.

You'd be wrong. Necro is in fact very viable in PvP. They just have much more limited build options than other classes but that isn't to say you can't make an extremely powerful necro.. you def can.

All classes are in fact viable in all PVE roles currently, to varying degrees. The only need for balance changes is for the sake of "changing things up" not to achieve actual balance. We're more or less already there. Again sorcs should not be as capable of a tank as necro while still maintaining their ranged offensive kit and extreme mobility. Not gonna change any pvpers mind on that.

I offered the solution. Delete the heal from hardened ward. You'll still be able to tank I promise. Maybe zos can implement some other tool to help sorc tanking but that is not within the scope of this discussion.

I do disagree on your definition of a class being viable, but that can be a topic for another time.

As you yourself just stated, changes are made to keep things interesting. Having a class that isn't necromancer as an off tank is that highly needed and long overdue change that has been missing.

I have not, and I will not try to change any PvPers mind on sorc, it might as well be the most obnoxious and annoying class and playstyle, dont know, don't care. What I am just saying is that removing the heal would be a horrible change and I really hope they don't listen to the PvP community on this.

What strikes me as weird is that even spending only a weekend on the forums, it feels like everyone is complaining about healing and shielding in PvP (and gankers). Instead of nuking the individual skills, wouldn't it be better to just nerf stacked healing and shielding in general when Battle Spirit is active? I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this complex plan, but to me that seems to be the most obvious course of action.

Not nuking. I was using hardened ward with great success before this buff. I stopped using it after the buff because it's not fun playing with no challenge.

Viable: "capable of working successfully; feasible." which definition are you using?

BananaBender · July 15

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Hardened Ward is pretty much the only thing that is making Sorc Tank viable in PvE, and now that Necro tank has been getting worse and worse each patch, Sorc has pretty much taken it's place. Which I honestly prefer, because of how long Necro was the only class worth using as an OT.

I don't play PvP, so I don't know what exactly makes skills strong and whatnot, but removing the heal from the skill would pretty much make the whole thing useless.

Wonder what would be a good change that wouldn't completely kill Sorc in PvE, but would nerf it in PvP?

Sorc tanks have been viable for most of the history of this game. Not every class has to be competitive in every role. DK's have limited ranged offensive options and for good reason.. their defensive kit would make that overpowered.

Having your only burst heal be tied to either not being able to block while doing it, or using two slots to get the dinosaur dude was not viable. Sure you could clear veteran content with that but nothing past that.

While I agree that not every class should be able to do every role equally well, being forced to run necromancer off tank for 5 years in a row was getting extremely boring.

I'm just saying that there is quite a lot of people who do not play PvP and are really happy about the state of Hardened Ward right now. That's why I was trying to get people who play both game modes to come up with ideas on actually fixing the skill instead of just complaining. Though complaining is much much easier.

I play both PVE and PVP extensively. Sorcs were able to tank before hardened ward was buffed. You said yourself they can clear vet content and not every class needs to be equally good at everything. So there you have it.Trial bosses can't complain about classes being ridiculously overpowered so ofc PVE mains are happy about being able to faceroll everything with little effort.

That's one way to say you haven't tanked any difficult content on a sorc. Sorc is in no way the safest or the most durable tank to go with right now. Arc and DK are just way more better at sustaining damage than Sorc is, and that's why you mainly see it as an off tank.

And you saying that sorcs were able to tank before makes me think that we have two completely different definitions on the word 'viable'. Sure you could do it, you just had no reason to. Sorc being a useable tank right now it so much more healthier for the tanking scene.

Me saying that not every class needs to be equally good at all roles does not mean that it's fine that necro is the only class that is viable as an off tank. It mostly just means that I'm not going to go cry for ZoS to buff NB mitigation and sustain alongside with templar, or that DK needs much better heals etc.

There will always be one single "best" at any role. To me "viable" means that it can be done. Sorc is a ranged dps class that "can" tank and that has been the case for years. Hardened ward may make it easier but it was already viable. There doesn't need to be a "good" reason to bring a sorc tank other than that they can do it.. and they can. Just like we don't need a good reason to bring a ranged DK dps.

At any rate this is a pvp discussion and this is derailing.

With that logic everything is viable everywhere and no changes are needed anywhere. I wouldn't really call necro to be viable in PvP even though you can play it.

Until ZoS separates PvE and PvP there is no reason to separate PvE and PvP discussion. As much as it annoys me, a change in one is a change in the another. So discussing balance on a vital skill while only thinking of one side is just useless. Sure you can complain as much as you want, but I wouldn't be surprised if the nerf you so desperately want might not be coming, because a lot of people are really happy with the state of the skill right now.

That's why I asked previously if people actually have some ideas which would be considered a nerf that is large enough to matter, while not destroying the skill in PvE.

But if you feel like just complaining without actually seeking a solution then you do you. Maybe I should start making post on NB needing double the damage they currently have to be better than a companion in PvE.

You'd be wrong. Necro is in fact very viable in PvP. They just have much more limited build options than other classes but that isn't to say you can't make an extremely powerful necro.. you def can.

All classes are in fact viable in all PVE roles currently, to varying degrees. The only need for balance changes is for the sake of "changing things up" not to achieve actual balance. We're more or less already there. Again sorcs should not be as capable of a tank as necro while still maintaining their ranged offensive kit and extreme mobility. Not gonna change any pvpers mind on that.

I offered the solution. Delete the heal from hardened ward. You'll still be able to tank I promise. Maybe zos can implement some other tool to help sorc tanking but that is not within the scope of this discussion.

I do disagree on your definition of a class being viable, but that can be a topic for another time.

As you yourself just stated, changes are made to keep things interesting. Having a class that isn't necromancer as an off tank is that highly needed and long overdue change that has been missing.

I have not, and I will not try to change any PvPers mind on sorc, it might as well be the most obnoxious and annoying class and playstyle, dont know, don't care. What I am just saying is that removing the heal would be a horrible change and I really hope they don't listen to the PvP community on this.

What strikes me as weird is that even spending only a weekend on the forums, it feels like everyone is complaining about healing and shielding in PvP (and gankers). Instead of nuking the individual skills, wouldn't it be better to just nerf stacked healing and shielding in general when Battle Spirit is active? I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this complex plan, but to me that seems to be the most obvious course of action.

Not nuking. I was using hardened ward with great success before this buff. I stopped using it after the buff because it's not fun playing with no challenge.

Viable: "capable of working successfully; feasible." which definition are you using?

My definition is pretty much the same, but just mostly focused on newer trifectas/score pushing context.

Sorc tank still offers a great challenge if you go look for it. Challenge is based on your experience and skill as a player, if you don't look for a challenge in ESO you aren't gonna get one. Tanking normal random dungeons sure doesn't provide any challenge on any class, build or setup, but saying that sorc tanking doesn't offer a challenge while you are not looking to challenge yourself is just plain and simply idiotic. It's like me saying that PvP in ESO doesn't offer any challenge what so ever, because I played a BG against players who I assume didn't have their monitor on and dominated the match.

ketsparrowhawk · July 15

I was talking about pvp. Little challenge to be found as a sorc using hardened ward.

ketsparrowhawk · July 15

In this context viable means capable of completing the content. Sorc tank pushing scores is a novel idea but certainly not worth ruining the PvP experience when sorcs were perfectly viable as PVE tanks before. The word you're looking for is "competitive" and we do indeed disagree there.

BananaBender · July 15

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

In this context viable means capable of completing the content. Sorc tank pushing scores is a novel idea but certainly not worth ruining the PvP experience when sorcs were perfectly viable as PVE tanks before. The word you're looking for is "competitive" and we do indeed disagree there.

In that case I correct my statement; I'm happy that Sorc tank is finally competitive.

Instead of crying, I tried to come up with a fix for the skill. The problem with sorc tank previously had was the lack of good healing. The only solid burst heal was with the Clanfear, while it's a solid heal, it takes two slots to use. Slots which are extremely important, especially on a tank. So instead of overloading Hardened Ward with the heal, they could buff the Clanfear to be actually worth the two slots it takes.

Let's say, it gives you a sizeable shield, a burst heal and grants you Major Resolve (they can move it to this skill from Hurricane, because it feels so out of place there). This way they could remove the healing from Hardened Ward without ruining sorc tank in PvE. Don't know what they would do with Hardened Ward in this scenario since the skill would be useless, but still. That would at least be a start.

ketsparrowhawk · July 15

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

In this context viable means capable of completing the content. Sorc tank pushing scores is a novel idea but certainly not worth ruining the PvP experience when sorcs were perfectly viable as PVE tanks before. The word you're looking for is "competitive" and we do indeed disagree there.

In that case I correct my statement; I'm happy that Sorc tank is finally competitive.

Instead of crying, I tried to come up with a fix for the skill. The problem with sorc tank previously had was the lack of good healing. The only solid burst heal was with the Clanfear, while it's a solid heal, it takes two slots to use. Slots which are extremely important, especially on a tank. So instead of overloading Hardened Ward with the heal, they could buff the Clanfear to be actually worth the two slots it takes.

Let's say, it gives you a sizeable shield, a burst heal and grants you Major Resolve (they can move it to this skill from Hurricane, because it feels so out of place there). This way they could remove the healing from Hardened Ward without ruining sorc tank in PvE. Don't know what they would do with Hardened Ward in this scenario since the skill would be useless, but still. That would at least be a start.

In pvp the matriarch has been worth slotting for a long time. Sorc tanking is a topic for another thread. The rude "crying" remarks are unnecessary.

BananaBender · July 15

Alright, I'll leave this thread to be exclusive to complaining about the skill, sure that will do a whole lot of good. Thankfully for me in this case, devs don't listen to feedback so the skill will hopefully stay as it is.

ketsparrowhawk · July 16

If you want to debate about whether or not hardened ward is OP in pvp then this is the thread for it. And yes making a complaint was the whole point of the thread lol

DrNukenstein · July 16

ViggyBoi wrote: »

The entire ranged sorc burst combo is completely countered by one roll dodge, this has been an issue

What if I told you that a big part of PvP is stressing your opponents resources harder than they stress yours... Unless you're 3rd partying, or ganking, or laying back and rolling up like 5 skills into a GCD ball and throwing it down town all day until someone decides to deal with you.