Hardened Ward is OP In PvP

ketsparrowhawk · June 2

Hello!

Sorcs have the best ranged offense in the game and supreme mobility. It's a bit too much that they can also just faceroll any and all damage by spamming one button. Not even DK's have as easy of a time in a mele brawl as a RANGED magsorc does. Sorcs were only ever asking for a reliable class burst heal which they got with Vibrant Shroud. Adding a heal to the Ward was unnecessary.

Thanks,

Ket

olsborg · June 2

They could take the heal away, but then give shields/wards the ability to crit, like healing does.

CameraBeardThePirate · June 2

People were already (rightfully) complaining about impervious runeward, and ZOS decided to give a straight upgrade of that ability to a class with far more offensive power and mobility. Absolutely wild decision making.

IncultaWolf · June 2

Yeah, most pvp streamers will agree with you, ward is very overtuned at the moment.

NyassaV · June 2

Literally just need to reduce the healing it does. Easy fix. It should function as a supplemental heal, something to keep you up while you hit dark deal or vigor. But instead it's so good you don't need to worry about other healing.

ZhuJiuyin · June 3

Considering that Scribing in the new patch has the ability to eliminate target wards, it is also easy to obtain debuffs such as Defile. So maybe sorc's ward doesn't need to be adjusted. Let them bake a little longer.

ketsparrowhawk · June 3

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Considering that Scribing in the new patch has the ability to eliminate target wards, it is also easy to obtain debuffs such as Defile. So maybe sorc's ward doesn't need to be adjusted. Let them bake a little longer.

It definitely doesn't need to bake longer. Scribing will only make shielding stronger. Everyone is permanently defiled in pvp anyway so that is already factored in

StaticWave · June 3

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Considering that Scribing in the new patch has the ability to eliminate target wards, it is also easy to obtain debuffs such as Defile. So maybe sorc's ward doesn't need to be adjusted. Let them bake a little longer.

I've fought a full defile build and Ward is the strongest defense against it without needing to cleanse. There is no need to bake anything longer. Good sorc mains have pointed out that this would be broken way before the change went live.

IncultaWolf · June 3

StaticWave wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Considering that Scribing in the new patch has the ability to eliminate target wards, it is also easy to obtain debuffs such as Defile. So maybe sorc's ward doesn't need to be adjusted. Let them bake a little longer.

I've fought a full defile build and Ward is the strongest defense against it without needing to cleanse. There is no need to bake anything longer. Good sorc mains have pointed out that this would be broken way before the change went live.

Yup, I've fought sorcerers with ward on my necromancer with blighted blastbones (100% major + minor defile uptime) and it made ZERO difference.

Hasenpfote · June 3

If you face a tank sorc, then he has prepared to be tanked. So you may have to prepare youself to defeat him aswell, ... or just ignore him.

I often see DPS that do 15k damage with one button aswell.

ketsparrowhawk · June 3

Hasenpfote wrote: »

If you face a tank sorc, then he has prepared to be tanked. So you may have to prepare youself to defeat him aswell, ... or just ignore him.

I often see DPS that do 15k damage with one button aswell.

But they're not tanks. They're full damage builds. If you ignore them they will kill you.

ViggyBoi · June 4

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Hello!

Sorcs have the best ranged offense in the game and supreme mobility.

Ket

The entire ranged sorc burst combo is completely countered by one roll dodge, this has been an issue even before the ward buffs and still holds true, its just that their lack of healing is no longer exploitable and can have multiple attempts to go for it now. Vibrant Shroud also is not a good burst heal. Its around the same cost as combat prayer with not as good secondary effects. Nice niche skill for pve support, but not at all on par with breath of life/healthy offering/etc.

Urzigurumash · June 4

Yep it's literally impossible to overbuff Sorc because of roll dodge. This was established as fact years ago

Jsmalls · June 4

ViggyBoi wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Hello!

Sorcs have the best ranged offense in the game and supreme mobility.

Ket

The entire ranged sorc burst combo is completely countered by one roll dodge, this has been an issue even before the ward buffs and still holds true, its just that their lack of healing is no longer exploitable and can have multiple attempts to go for it now. Vibrant Shroud also is not a good burst heal. Its around the same cost as combat prayer with not as good secondary effects. Nice niche skill for pve support, but not at all on par with breath of life/healthy offering/etc.

@ViggyBoi

I agree that the combo is avoidable, but the same can be said for nightblades merciless. But yes an aggressive roll dodger will mostly shutdown even a great range Sorc.

Curse, streak, dawnbreaker, and heavy attack lighting Crystal weapons is your friend here. Also the new Soul Burst with class mastery is close to the same damage as a spammable. It's expensive but could aid in roll frustration.

I don't agree with your statement on Vibrant Shroud.

Maybe you need to look at the new blood magic passive this update but this ability is now comparable to most in class burst heals, offers AoE healing for the group, offers minor vitality and Major Maim. It's now a very competitive ability.

ViggyBoi · June 4

@Jsmalls

Oh you're right there I actually completely forgot about the change they made to that passive. There is an argument to be made that the way ward is now is a bit much given the sorc population spike, I'd just prefer it be addressed in a way that doesn't put mag sorc back to its pre 41 days of mediocrity.

AvidNecro · June 4

My biggest issue is that the buff was so good that it made mediocre players S-tier, just by playing the class. Skill has been untethered for quite some time now with these idiotic buffs, and yet necro still has to RNG for a major sorcery buff every patch notes.

Luna_the_Rat · June 10

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

People were already (rightfully) complaining about impervious runeward, and ZOS decided to give a straight upgrade of that ability to a class with far more offensive power and mobility. Absolutely wild decision making.

Correct, Ward and Runeward need to be touched with Nerfs. One button tanking on a ranged mage reminds me of Mara's Balm one button immortality meta. Just very unhealthy for the game, Mages should have to stick with their team before using their superior target access to finish foes on their own, and not eternal sustain 1vX with the best mobility of any class including a stun, nuclear damage, rapid healing, *AND* an 80k + Damage shield. Meaningfully nerfing wards would put Arc and Sorc on notice that they cannot play 1v11 or zergsurf irrespective of their teammates with eternal sustain and infinite damage, and actually succeed, like they are currently doing.

TLDR: Sorc has access to every mechanic in the game. Having one class with Infinite DPS Mobility Tank and Sustain is supremely unhealthy for eso PVP, wherever you participate, full stop.

StaticWave · June 11

I am glad more people are seeing Ward for how it is post-buff. With the recent changes to Blood Magic and Expert Summoner passive, in addition to the Scribing update, there is no need for Sorc to retain Ward's burst heal mechanic. It should either be converted into a HoT or reduced in tooltip potency.

ketsparrowhawk · July 13

Typical PvP experience:

- Attack sorc. Sorc jumps up and down while spamming shields, laughing at me.
- I give up and try to attack someone else.
- The sorc activates overload and starts blasting me from range.
- I try to attack the sorc again, they resume jumping up and down and spamming shields, laughing at me.

I'd like to repeat that Vibrant Shroud is all Sorcs were ever asking for. You gave that to them.. wonderful! The hardened ward buff was unnecessary and is creating a maddening gameplay experience. With their lethal ranged offense and superior mobility, sorcs should be at a disadvantage in mele range. Instead they faceroll as well as any arcanist, warden, etc. Just delete the heal from hardened ward please and thank you.

BananaBender · July 14

Hardened Ward is pretty much the only thing that is making Sorc Tank viable in PvE, and now that Necro tank has been getting worse and worse each patch, Sorc has pretty much taken it's place. Which I honestly prefer, because of how long Necro was the only class worth using as an OT.

I don't play PvP, so I don't know what exactly makes skills strong and whatnot, but removing the heal from the skill would pretty much make the whole thing useless.

Wonder what would be a good change that wouldn't completely kill Sorc in PvE, but would nerf it in PvP?

Yudo · July 14

Sorc kit was strong already before, with some weaknesses, it just has received a lot more attention now.
The sorc buff was two fold:

Shields now also heal
+10% magicka increase via passive

These buffs however allow Sorc kit to do more damage, shielding and now even healing with one and the same resource, and even one and the same skill, gapping the weaknesses.

valenwood_vegan · July 14

Another great example of how they need to put more effort into balancing pvp and pve separately.

xylena_lazarow · July 14

Luna_the_Rat wrote: »

Correct, Ward and Runeward need to be touched with Nerfs.

Hardened Ward is an unconditional 16k shield that lasts a full 6 seconds

Impervious Runeward is a conditional 16k shield that lasts only 1 second before shrinking in half.

Hardened Ward has an unconditional spammable burst heal.

Impervious Runeward has a conditional burst heal that is single use and burns all your Crux.

These two skills aren't even in the same league anymore. Hardened Ward is incomparably overpowered, not to mention the fact that Sorc's offensive toolkit and mobility blast the slow clumsy Arcanist out of the water.

ketsparrowhawk · July 14

BananaBender wrote: »

Hardened Ward is pretty much the only thing that is making Sorc Tank viable in PvE, and now that Necro tank has been getting worse and worse each patch, Sorc has pretty much taken it's place. Which I honestly prefer, because of how long Necro was the only class worth using as an OT.

I don't play PvP, so I don't know what exactly makes skills strong and whatnot, but removing the heal from the skill would pretty much make the whole thing useless.

Wonder what would be a good change that wouldn't completely kill Sorc in PvE, but would nerf it in PvP?

Sorc tanks have been viable for most of the history of this game. Not every class has to be competitive in every role. DK's have limited ranged offensive options and for good reason.. their defensive kit would make that overpowered.

xylena_lazarow · July 15

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Sorc tanks have been viable for most of the history of this game. Not every class has to be competitive in every role. DK's have limited ranged offensive options and for good reason.. their defensive kit would make that overpowered.

Sorc can keep its spammable Coagulating Ward if DK can have a spammable Streak Leap.

BananaBender · July 15

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Hardened Ward is pretty much the only thing that is making Sorc Tank viable in PvE, and now that Necro tank has been getting worse and worse each patch, Sorc has pretty much taken it's place. Which I honestly prefer, because of how long Necro was the only class worth using as an OT.

I don't play PvP, so I don't know what exactly makes skills strong and whatnot, but removing the heal from the skill would pretty much make the whole thing useless.

Wonder what would be a good change that wouldn't completely kill Sorc in PvE, but would nerf it in PvP?

Sorc tanks have been viable for most of the history of this game. Not every class has to be competitive in every role. DK's have limited ranged offensive options and for good reason.. their defensive kit would make that overpowered.

Having your only burst heal be tied to either not being able to block while doing it, or using two slots to get the dinosaur dude was not viable. Sure you could clear veteran content with that but nothing past that.

While I agree that not every class should be able to do every role equally well, being forced to run necromancer off tank for 5 years in a row was getting extremely boring.

I'm just saying that there is quite a lot of people who do not play PvP and are really happy about the state of Hardened Ward right now. That's why I was trying to get people who play both game modes to come up with ideas on actually fixing the skill instead of just complaining. Though complaining is much much easier.

ketsparrowhawk · July 15

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Hardened Ward is pretty much the only thing that is making Sorc Tank viable in PvE, and now that Necro tank has been getting worse and worse each patch, Sorc has pretty much taken it's place. Which I honestly prefer, because of how long Necro was the only class worth using as an OT.

I don't play PvP, so I don't know what exactly makes skills strong and whatnot, but removing the heal from the skill would pretty much make the whole thing useless.

Wonder what would be a good change that wouldn't completely kill Sorc in PvE, but would nerf it in PvP?

Sorc tanks have been viable for most of the history of this game. Not every class has to be competitive in every role. DK's have limited ranged offensive options and for good reason.. their defensive kit would make that overpowered.

Having your only burst heal be tied to either not being able to block while doing it, or using two slots to get the dinosaur dude was not viable. Sure you could clear veteran content with that but nothing past that.

While I agree that not every class should be able to do every role equally well, being forced to run necromancer off tank for 5 years in a row was getting extremely boring.

I'm just saying that there is quite a lot of people who do not play PvP and are really happy about the state of Hardened Ward right now. That's why I was trying to get people who play both game modes to come up with ideas on actually fixing the skill instead of just complaining. Though complaining is much much easier.

I play both PVE and PVP extensively. Sorcs were able to tank before hardened ward was buffed. You said yourself they can clear vet content and not every class needs to be equally good at everything. So there you have it. Trial bosses can't complain about classes being ridiculously overpowered so ofc PVE mains are happy about being able to faceroll everything with little effort.

BananaBender · July 15

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Hardened Ward is pretty much the only thing that is making Sorc Tank viable in PvE, and now that Necro tank has been getting worse and worse each patch, Sorc has pretty much taken it's place. Which I honestly prefer, because of how long Necro was the only class worth using as an OT.

I don't play PvP, so I don't know what exactly makes skills strong and whatnot, but removing the heal from the skill would pretty much make the whole thing useless.

Wonder what would be a good change that wouldn't completely kill Sorc in PvE, but would nerf it in PvP?

Sorc tanks have been viable for most of the history of this game. Not every class has to be competitive in every role. DK's have limited ranged offensive options and for good reason.. their defensive kit would make that overpowered.

Having your only burst heal be tied to either not being able to block while doing it, or using two slots to get the dinosaur dude was not viable. Sure you could clear veteran content with that but nothing past that.

While I agree that not every class should be able to do every role equally well, being forced to run necromancer off tank for 5 years in a row was getting extremely boring.

I'm just saying that there is quite a lot of people who do not play PvP and are really happy about the state of Hardened Ward right now. That's why I was trying to get people who play both game modes to come up with ideas on actually fixing the skill instead of just complaining. Though complaining is much much easier.

I play both PVE and PVP extensively. Sorcs were able to tank before hardened ward was buffed. You said yourself they can clear vet content and not every class needs to be equally good at everything. So there you have it.Trial bosses can't complain about classes being ridiculously overpowered so ofc PVE mains are happy about being able to faceroll everything with little effort.

That's one way to say you haven't tanked any difficult content on a sorc. Sorc is in no way the safest or the most durable tank to go with right now. Arc and DK are just way more better at sustaining damage than Sorc is, and that's why you mainly see it as an off tank.

And you saying that sorcs were able to tank before makes me think that we have two completely different definitions on the word 'viable'. Sure you could do it, you just had no reason to. Sorc being a useable tank right now it so much more healthier for the tanking scene.

Me saying that not every class needs to be equally good at all roles does not mean that it's fine that necro is the only class that is viable as an off tank. It mostly just means that I'm not going to go cry for ZoS to buff NB mitigation and sustain alongside with templar, or that DK needs much better heals etc.

ketsparrowhawk · July 15

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Hardened Ward is pretty much the only thing that is making Sorc Tank viable in PvE, and now that Necro tank has been getting worse and worse each patch, Sorc has pretty much taken it's place. Which I honestly prefer, because of how long Necro was the only class worth using as an OT.

I don't play PvP, so I don't know what exactly makes skills strong and whatnot, but removing the heal from the skill would pretty much make the whole thing useless.

Wonder what would be a good change that wouldn't completely kill Sorc in PvE, but would nerf it in PvP?

Sorc tanks have been viable for most of the history of this game. Not every class has to be competitive in every role. DK's have limited ranged offensive options and for good reason.. their defensive kit would make that overpowered.

Having your only burst heal be tied to either not being able to block while doing it, or using two slots to get the dinosaur dude was not viable. Sure you could clear veteran content with that but nothing past that.

While I agree that not every class should be able to do every role equally well, being forced to run necromancer off tank for 5 years in a row was getting extremely boring.

I'm just saying that there is quite a lot of people who do not play PvP and are really happy about the state of Hardened Ward right now. That's why I was trying to get people who play both game modes to come up with ideas on actually fixing the skill instead of just complaining. Though complaining is much much easier.

I play both PVE and PVP extensively. Sorcs were able to tank before hardened ward was buffed. You said yourself they can clear vet content and not every class needs to be equally good at everything. So there you have it.Trial bosses can't complain about classes being ridiculously overpowered so ofc PVE mains are happy about being able to faceroll everything with little effort.

That's one way to say you haven't tanked any difficult content on a sorc. Sorc is in no way the safest or the most durable tank to go with right now. Arc and DK are just way more better at sustaining damage than Sorc is, and that's why you mainly see it as an off tank.

And you saying that sorcs were able to tank before makes me think that we have two completely different definitions on the word 'viable'. Sure you could do it, you just had no reason to. Sorc being a useable tank right now it so much more healthier for the tanking scene.

Me saying that not every class needs to be equally good at all roles does not mean that it's fine that necro is the only class that is viable as an off tank. It mostly just means that I'm not going to go cry for ZoS to buff NB mitigation and sustain alongside with templar, or that DK needs much better heals etc.

There will always be one single "best" at any role. To me "viable" means that it can be done. Sorc is a ranged dps class that "can" tank and that has been the case for years. Hardened ward may make it easier but it was already viable. There doesn't need to be a "good" reason to bring a sorc tank other than that they can do it.. and they can. Just like we don't need a good reason to bring a ranged DK dps.

At any rate this is a pvp discussion and this is derailing.

BananaBender · July 15

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Hardened Ward is pretty much the only thing that is making Sorc Tank viable in PvE, and now that Necro tank has been getting worse and worse each patch, Sorc has pretty much taken it's place. Which I honestly prefer, because of how long Necro was the only class worth using as an OT.

I don't play PvP, so I don't know what exactly makes skills strong and whatnot, but removing the heal from the skill would pretty much make the whole thing useless.

Wonder what would be a good change that wouldn't completely kill Sorc in PvE, but would nerf it in PvP?

Sorc tanks have been viable for most of the history of this game. Not every class has to be competitive in every role. DK's have limited ranged offensive options and for good reason.. their defensive kit would make that overpowered.

Having your only burst heal be tied to either not being able to block while doing it, or using two slots to get the dinosaur dude was not viable. Sure you could clear veteran content with that but nothing past that.

While I agree that not every class should be able to do every role equally well, being forced to run necromancer off tank for 5 years in a row was getting extremely boring.

I'm just saying that there is quite a lot of people who do not play PvP and are really happy about the state of Hardened Ward right now. That's why I was trying to get people who play both game modes to come up with ideas on actually fixing the skill instead of just complaining. Though complaining is much much easier.

I play both PVE and PVP extensively. Sorcs were able to tank before hardened ward was buffed. You said yourself they can clear vet content and not every class needs to be equally good at everything. So there you have it.Trial bosses can't complain about classes being ridiculously overpowered so ofc PVE mains are happy about being able to faceroll everything with little effort.

That's one way to say you haven't tanked any difficult content on a sorc. Sorc is in no way the safest or the most durable tank to go with right now. Arc and DK are just way more better at sustaining damage than Sorc is, and that's why you mainly see it as an off tank.

And you saying that sorcs were able to tank before makes me think that we have two completely different definitions on the word 'viable'. Sure you could do it, you just had no reason to. Sorc being a useable tank right now it so much more healthier for the tanking scene.

Me saying that not every class needs to be equally good at all roles does not mean that it's fine that necro is the only class that is viable as an off tank. It mostly just means that I'm not going to go cry for ZoS to buff NB mitigation and sustain alongside with templar, or that DK needs much better heals etc.

There will always be one single "best" at any role. To me "viable" means that it can be done. Sorc is a ranged dps class that "can" tank and that has been the case for years. Hardened ward may make it easier but it was already viable. There doesn't need to be a "good" reason to bring a sorc tank other than that they can do it.. and they can. Just like we don't need a good reason to bring a ranged DK dps.

At any rate this is a pvp discussion and this is derailing.

With that logic everything is viable everywhere and no changes are needed anywhere. I wouldn't really call necro to be viable in PvP even though you can play it.

Until ZoS separates PvE and PvP there is no reason to separate PvE and PvP discussion. As much as it annoys me, a change in one is a change in the another. So discussing balance on a vital skill while only thinking of one side is just useless. Sure you can complain as much as you want, but I wouldn't be surprised if the nerf you so desperately want might not be coming, because a lot of people are really happy with the state of the skill right now.

That's why I asked previously if people actually have some ideas which would be considered a nerf that is large enough to matter, while not destroying the skill in PvE.

But if you feel like just complaining without actually seeking a solution then you do you. Maybe I should start making post on NB needing double the damage they currently have to be better than a companion in PvE.

Iriidius · July 15

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Luna_the_Rat wrote: »

Correct, Ward and Runeward need to be touched with Nerfs.

Hardened Ward is an unconditional 16k shield that lasts a full 6 seconds

Impervious Runeward is a conditional 16k shield that lasts only 1 second before shrinking in half.

Hardened Ward has an unconditional spammable burst heal.

Impervious Runeward has a conditional burst heal that is single use and burns all your Crux.

These two skills aren't even in the same league anymore. Hardened Ward is incomparably overpowered, not to mention the fact that Sorc's offensive toolkit and mobility blast the slow clumsy Arcanist out of the water.

Except that you can take 15.9k dmg on Impervious Runeward and still receive the second shield with full strength for together 16+8=24k shield size and that Impervious Runeward healing with 3 crux is twice as much as hardened ward healing before scaling and that arcanist can create crux pretty fast getting 1 crux per 5 seconds each from Resolve and Brutality buffskill and another for each use of flail or runeblades.
Overall runeward should be same strength as hardened ward. Hardened Ward is about half way between 0 crux 0+8k shield Runeward and 3 crux 15+8k runeward, same as average Runeward.