New PvP balance idea

Afterip

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

So hyperbole to change the subject from the point of Dizzy being outclassed when looking beyond just the direct numbers in a single GCD? Got it

Dizzy = damage+Off Balance or snare.
Crushing = 27% less dmg + probably you could add statuss effect and/or you could stunn enemy if he cast spell.

And dizzy boy will add status effects too by using Elemental Susceptibility from back frost bar.

P.s. If you think I'm playing sorc, you're mistaken. My main and only one pvp character is magcro. And yes, I played stamcro using dizzy swing.

TechMaybeHic

Afterip wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

So hyperbole to change the subject from the point of Dizzy being outclassed when looking beyond just the direct numbers in a single GCD? Got it

Dizzy = damage+Off Balance or snare.
Crushing = 27% less dmg + probably you could add statuss effect and/or you could stunn enemy if he cast spell.

And dizzy boy will add status effects too by using Elemental Susceptibility from back frost bar.

P.s. If you think I'm playing sorc, you're mistaken. My main and only one pvp character is magcro. And yes, I played stamcro using dizzy swing.

When did you last play stamcro and what spammable are you using now if dizzy is so great? Why stop?

Afterip

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I'm playing eso, but it looks like you're playing some kind of shooter with guns and knifes. [snip]
My full message was: IF melee skills so weak, why most of strong pvp players running with 2h/duals front bar and frost staff back bar?

As i see many pvp wardens and nb prefer 2h. yesterday i meet with 2h plar and after long fight he killed me.

And special for you:

20k max stat, 5k max power

Bloodthirst 4 = (0.0297 MaxStat + 0.31184 MaxPower)x4 = 8 612, 8

Crushing Shock 4 = (0.03099 MaxStat + 0.325395 MaxPower)x3 = 6 740, 325

And again melee skill 27% more stronger than range.

idk skill coefficients of new scribing skills but i think it will be same.

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Becouse have only 1 50lvl character and I opened and lvluped all skills and there upgrades(exept scribing). so for swap build i need just change some skill upgrades and swap magica to stamina or keep hp. Right now im trying to play as magcro in pvp. And what can i say, when i used 2h or duals, i have better chance to kill enemy then now when i use destro stuff. So in my opinion melee is not so bad plays as some players said.

[edited for trolling]

Major_Toughness

At least use two abilities with cast times so they are comparable. All cast time abilities have slightly higher scaling than non-cast time abilities.

Are you are being disingenuous on purpose to try prove your point?
You had already looking up the coefficients so could see the difference.

Same stats:
Lethal Arrow: 7751.35
Dizzying Swing: 8612.62

Dizzy Swing is 11.11% higher tooltip.


As others have mentioned that also comes with Off-balance which is access to a off-GCD stun and extra damage via CP or Armour sets should you choose. Yes Lethal Arrow has it's own bonuses with doing disease damage and sets that buff disease damage.

I can't find a coefficient for the guaranteed disease damage however that would make Lethal Arrow even closer to Dizzy Swing.

Then take into account melee vs ranged and suddenly you can see why ranged damage is so obnoxiously strong.

Afterip

Major_Toughness wrote: »

I didnt pick lethal arrow becous its specific class weapon such as sword and board arc weapon now. for this month i didnt see any bowmen exept nb and bash users exept arcanists. obviousle sneaky nb with lethal arrow and equiped proc sets could easy kill his target from safe place. but its not mean that ALL ranged skills are so deadly and deserve to be nerfed, mb magsorc's overload has same threat.

in fight between range and melee, range has 1-2 sec advantage before melee will gasp close to him. After that range cant escape from melee to safe place and nuke him (except sorcs), even nb can be catched when they try to escape. So fight between melee and range will be in small zone where both can punch each other. and at this point melee will feel all his advantages of his stronger abilities.

Major_Toughness

Afterip wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

I didnt pick lethal arrow becous its specific class weapon such as sword and board arc weapon now. for this month i didnt see any bowmen exept nb and bash users exept arcanists. obviousle sneaky nb with lethal arrow and equiped proc sets could easy kill his target from safe place. but its not mean that ALL ranged skills are so deadly and deserve to be nerfed, mb magsorc's overload has same threat.

in fight between range and melee, range has 1-2 sec advantage before melee will gasp close to him. After that range cant escape from melee to safe place and nuke him (except sorcs), even nb can be catched when they try to escape. So fight between melee and range will be in small zone where both can punch each other. and at this point melee will feel all his advantages of his stronger abilities.

Surprise Attack is 11% stronger than Swallow Soul.
Concealed is 22% stronger but that got a 10% buff in U41 and is the strongest spammable in the game. Even that is less of a power difference than your original claim.
Swallow Soul isn't weak either in terms of damage, it's the same as Crushing Shock, a global spammable used by Magsorcs, Magdens, Magcros, even Magplars.
At least if they're not using new Wield Soul yet.

All a ranged player has to do is get 8 meters away. Then melee does no damage at all. Even if they close the gap within 1 second, they still did no damage for that second and you did all of yours.

Even if the the big bad supercharged melee played gets their spammable off half the number of times as ranged, the ranged build is going to do almost twice as much damage.

Afterip

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Concealed is 22% stronger but that got a 10% buff in U41 and is the strongest spammable in the game. Even that is less of a power difference than your original claim.

Concealed Weapon = 0.11363 x 20000+ 1.19311x5000 = 8238.15
but with 10% buff its deal 8238.15x1.1= 9061.965 A bit stronger than dswing or bloodthirst.

Oh, I'm so tired, so let's do this. I agree with all the guys on this topic that melee suck and range OP. So ZOS should buff all melee skills like add 30% dmg or ncreased range to 10m or even 15m and make them instant.

Now I'm going to leave defeated.

Major_Toughness

Afterip wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Concealed is 22% stronger but that got a 10% buff in U41 and is the strongest spammable in the game. Even that is less of a power difference than your original claim.

Concealed Weapon = 0.11363 x 20000+ 1.19311x5000 = 8238.15
but with 10% buff its deal 8238.15x1.1= 9061.965 A bit stronger than dswing or bloodthirst.

Oh, I'm so tired, so let's do this. I agree with all the guys on this topic that melee suck and range OP. So ZOS should buff all melee skills like add 30% dmg or ncreased range to 10m or even 15m and make them instant.

Now I'm going to leave defeated.

The values you used for Concealed Weapon are values for it in its buffed state.

Now it does also have a unique 10% buff which would take it to your value.

However that skill is an outlier and too strong. Should also not be used to say melee is OP when it's the only melee spammable that does that amount of damage.

Durham

Afterip wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

...

https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php

IF we have 5k max power and 20k max stat, then:

Dizzying Swing 4 = 0.118795 MaxStat + 1.24735 MaxPower= 8 612, 65

Crushing Shock 4 = (0.03099 MaxStat + 0.325395 MaxPower)x3= 6 740, 325

As you see dizzing ~27,7% stronger than crushing.

LOL Dizzy is on a timer! Its misses and wiffs, it also in on 7 meters !!!!! 7 meters!!! So you think something that allows you hit from 28 meters and instant damage should hit the same? You can spam crushing 3 times to 2 dizzy's and 1 will probably miss on dizzy.

Durham

Afterip wrote: »

IF melee skills so weak, why most of strong pvp players running with 2h/duals front bar and frost staff back bar?

For the weapon damage dude not using the actual abilities maybe the duel wield, two-hander executes.

All DKs Hybrids and use whips
I would say 80% Sorcs are magicka or Hybrid most do not use Dizzy there are a few but its a much harder play style.
I would say 70% Wardens are magicka you see a few Dizzy stam wardens on at night.
I would say 90% of Templars are Magicka

xylena_lazarow

Dunno what to tell the "2h is meta" guy because 2h is terrible. Those Dizzy Wardens are doing it out of nostalgia.

Major_Toughness

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dunno what to tell the "2h is meta" guy because 2h is terrible. Those Dizzy Wardens are doing it out of nostalgia.

Magicka Warden on top.

They play melee but Blood For Blood/Arterial Burst.

master_vanargand

With Battle Spirit's range exceeding 28m, Melee builds are suicidal in Battlegrounds and Cyrodiil and IC.
Most PvP melee builds are only effective indoors, in towers, tree and rock, or in Duel.

Durham

master_vanargand wrote: »

With Battle Spirit's range exceeding 28m, Melee builds are suicidal in Battlegrounds and Cyrodiil and IC.
Most PvP melee builds are only effective indoors, in towers, tree and rock, or in Duel.

Exactly there has been a power creep in ranged damage. Which Im surprised ZoS has allowed such a huge imbalance on something that affects all aspects of the game including role play. This goes beyond classes but some classes excel at range more than others which leads us right back to the Sorc lol.

xylena_lazarow

Durham wrote: »

Which Im surprised ZoS has allowed such a huge imbalance on something that affects all aspects of the game including role play. This goes beyond classes but some classes excel at range more than others which leads us right back to the Sorc lol.

I'm surprised too after they made such a big deal over restricting Savage Werewolf to melee range, as well as the idiotic MDW nerf. The current crop of ranged burst procs like Tarnished are more braindead set-and-forget than ever. I'd love to see proc damage restricted to melee range across the board. No "free" damage unless you take the risk.

Sporigudinai

Yes, i think it´s clear that Ranged builds are more OP right now. You need to spend lots of resources to avoid get killed before you can catch a ranged player while you are melee. Or you need to have a really good resist. More then before.
I´m a casual PvP player and i always played with melee builds, and it´s geting hard for me.

About Necro, i tried a stancro with scribing giving me stun and brut/sorc in the same skill, and it felt nice to play like that. With 2H.

Casul

How to fix

Damage skills scales off WD/SD
Healing skills scales off Stamina/Magicka
Health based skill heals cap out at 30K HP

My 2c

Shadowbinder7

Casul wrote: »

How to fix

Damage skills scales off WD/SD
Healing skills scales off Stamina/Magicka
Health based skill heals cap out at 30K HP

My 2c

Interesting suggestion. You know I have been theory crafting all classes pve and more pvp lately for years and gotta say it seems to me the worst thing that blocks your proposal or any other balance changes is….

ZOS seem to not be able to make ENTIRELY separate rules for PVE and PVP. Maybe it’s too cost ineffective for the game.

Sad truth is BGs IC and Cyro get quite samey. Same can be said for PVE but there’s a new pair of dungeons every month, a new trial every year.

PvP in eso has its exiting aspects, but it seems that while all these continuous set, scaling, class passives etc changes are made since they all affect BOTH PVE and PVP it just results in imbalance in both. Loads of stam arcs or medium armour melee dds in PVE,
Meanwhile pvp is swarmed by high health/healing bots

PvP desperately needs its own set of rules for all classes all armours, as well as sets (like dmg to monsters/damage from players bonuses). Battle spirit isn’t enough. For all I know so many of the previous year nerfs to classes like necro and nightblade in PVE, which I LOVED playing, were due to power surges (or for NB utter dominance) in PVP.

Revamping the rules and dynamics of pvp in a super quality of life update would actually benefit all PVE players as well as PVP, cos finally they could allow all classes, mag or stam, to be valued and needed even, in endgame content.

As it is now… it just seems like lots of crazy effort changing, planning, fixing updating, tweaking for little gain. Both for the developers and the players.

I really hope ZOS_Kevin or one of the others can read this and pass it on. Honestly I say all this purely out of love for ESO, not simply to criticise and whine. I truly believe these focused changes (instead of another mini rushed story dlc) would expand and keep ESO boomin for years to come.

And mayyyybe… a new PVP zone wouldn’t be a bad idea? New kinda PVP games?

Fantalior

Let's wait and see, maybe the upcoming change to vampire level 3 or undead will bring something and minimize the high efficiency of the permanent tanks

Fantalior

Furthermore, we also have a solution for the healing problem with the scribing system. The script makes trauma (e.g. trample) more effective by adding damage of the same amount in addition to the healing absorption.

Durham

Fantalior wrote: »

Let's wait and see, maybe the upcoming change to vampire level 3 or undead will bring something and minimize the high efficiency of the permanent tanks

Nah you need to eliminate the use of (block) jewelry cost reduction. There will still be block tanks until you do something about block cost.

xylena_lazarow

Durham wrote: »

Nah you need to eliminate the use of (block) jewelry cost reduction. There will still be block tanks until you do something about block cost.

The righteous Undeath nerf should open the door to melting the blocky blocks with dots, like you could do back in the 30% Defile days, when things were more balanced. This is the best thing they've done for pressure builds in a while.

MEBengalsFan2001

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Actual meta encourages people to put attribute points into health, not stamina/magicka even if they want to build dd build, not typical tank. So what you think about simple solution - bonuses and penalties for using every point in specific attribute? For every point of health you will be have damage reduced per X% in PvP (only PvP, it can't touch PvE), for every point of stamina/magicka you will have damage increased.

I know that people can still take all magicka/stamina and then put all defense sets instead one defense and one damage. But we can go further with giving some more penalties for having too much armor/health in general. Idea is simple - if you want be really tanky tank - you can, but your damage will be pitty not matter what you will use.

We can go even further - some damage reduction while you are healed. Not too big of course and only when you received too much health per second, so too much healing will be crippling people.

There must be this choice - damage or survability. More damage = less survability. More survability = less damage.

Roles should matter. They could easily put into the game caps on stats in pvp by role selected.

NyassaV

I'd just tie proc damage to max stats rather then weapon and spell damage. That way people who want to use procs in PvP would have to use a fundamentally different build and hopefully it would reduce the amount of players who just sit there and try to microwave you while heavy attacking.

huskandhunger

Either make healing scale off max stats potentially, instead of weapon or spell dmg, or increase battle spirit passive heal reduction to 80%. Or buff major / minor defiles to add counterplay.

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Nah you need to eliminate the use of (block) jewelry cost reduction. There will still be block tanks until you do something about block cost.

The righteous Undeath nerf should open the door to melting the blocky blocks with dots, like you could do back in the 30% Defile days, when things were more balanced. This is the best thing they've done for pressure builds in a while.

It will not. DoT nerf was like x2 nerf on everything. Undeath change won't do anything to return that meta.
Or do you mean pre-proc scaling? I don't want that meta back ever.

TechMaybeHic

PvP balance idea: Anything at all

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

It will not. DoT nerf was like x2 nerf on everything. Undeath change won't do anything to return that meta. Or do you mean pre-proc scaling? I don't want that meta back ever.

It means that if you want the Stage 3 effect back, you adapt by wearing Pariah. Because players won't be degenerately tanky anymore, you'll be able to run heavy armor brawler builds with both tank and damage sets to both survive and close kills, like back when the meta was more balanced, not this "Stage 3 tank with 3 damage sets" degeneracy.

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

It will not. DoT nerf was like x2 nerf on everything. Undeath change won't do anything to return that meta. Or do you mean pre-proc scaling? I don't want that meta back ever.

It means that if you want the Stage 3 effect back, you adapt by wearing Pariah. Because players won't be degenerately tanky anymore, you'll be able to run heavy armor brawler builds with both tank and damage sets to both survive and close kills, like back when the meta was more balanced, not this "Stage 3 tank with 3 damage sets" degeneracy.

I agree that it will help, I disagree with DoT meta.
DoTs are being balanced against PvE, thus they can't allow them to be good, or else they might start doing more than 2 spammable damage over 20 seconds!

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

DoTs are being balanced against PvE, thus they can't allow them to be good, or else they might start doing more than 2 spammable damage over 20 seconds!

Not sure what you mean, but it's better PvP to have a chance to fight back against pressure brawlers, than to be instantly deleted by stacks of proc sets from some invisible jerks 41m away who are long gone before you can pop a detect. Morrowind was an underrated PvP meta, midrange bleed pressure builds were prevalent, but there were plenty of two gcd burst combo glass cannons, and heavy Defile attrition brawlers, a nice balanced triangle meta.