Highest level PVP in ESO…?

Theignson · June 4

One of the attractions of PvP is that there are many different ways to play. And you can be very good at some and not good at others. As others have mentioned:
1) 1v1 . Duelers. Not so much a thing in open world but some players are really good 1v1
2) 1 v X. This is a dying breed. But some of them are amazing. Some of them, like React, can 1vX a dozen opponents or more. Others I admire because they are so hard to kill but can take you out if you let your guard down. They dance around with 5-10 players chasing them and rarely die. That is pretty hard actually.
3) Zone generals. Over the last 7 years on EP, I've seen only 4-5 players who can manage a whole faction. This definitely takes skill. Xylena herself was very good at this, for example.
4) Group leaders. This is much harder and more annoying than it looks. Running an efficient, effective , fast, fun group is a rare skill. I will only group with 1 or 2 players anymore since it is so rare.
5) Ball group leaders. Over the years I've occasionally run with some ball groups. The best ones assign a build and a role. The best ball groups, I think of Dracarys, were legendary. It is very hard to to this at a top level. I think of Izanerys, he could really run a ball group. This is also by no means easy.
6) Keep defense. A good, hour long , succesful keep defense is one of my favorite things in ESO. No other game come close to this. But, a weak keep defense is pathetic. Its not so easy to organize a keep defense.
7) Bombers. A good bomber is annoying as heck (why can't I just rep the door in peace?) but you have to admire this niche skill.
8) Gankers. Gankers are a little out of favor in the current meta, but a good gank is not so easy, especially in this age of 40k+ tanks. Especially the "personal" gank, ie melee at close range. The cloak/heavy attack/range/cloak gankers I don't think so highly of. I've tried ganking a fair amount on my NB and for me its the thing that gets the pulse punding more than anything else, its very much high risk/high reward.
9) Siegers. A good sieger, especially defensive siege, is not as common as you might think.
10) Tower humpers. These are usually a group of 2-4 who lure people into towers, run around until they have ultimate, then blast them to smithereens. Usually snowtreader equipper, 3x swift, hard to kill. Not a style of play I enjoy, but some of them are really good at it.
11) PvDoor-ers. There are some amazingly efficient PvDoor groups. Almost as soon as it flags, they flip the keeps. This as opposed to many hoardes of players who, 20 of them stand or jump around while 5 are sieging.
12) Healers. These are really under praised in PvP. But some of them can keep you alive indefinitely.
13) Battle rezzers. There are some players who can rez you in the most improbable of circumstances.
14) Open field batllers. Open field, large scale battles are my favorite. 40 v 40 or more plus a couple groups from another faction thrown in. This requires a different skill set to avoid over committing ; an ebb abd flow style of play.

PvP is great fun with so many roles that most people can become good at something

SandandStars · June 14

theres a few very good players on xbox na bgs

but really there are only 2 categories that count

players who enjoy a skilled fight against challenging opponents

players who are opportunistic parasites

i wonder if it carries over into rl…

kurbbie_s · June 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

in place of skill, you can also simply declare on the forums that you're a Real MagSorc

i bet you play NB main. NB hands down easiest class this game has ever had. Always the meta, always the top.

kurbbie_s · June 26

buzzclops wrote: »

It’s definitely “high mmr” bgs. But even then it’s rare you get the games with the 40-50 players that play at the highest lvl. The “known names” in the bgs community. When you get 12 of these players in a lobby it doesn’t get any higher/sweaty than this. It’s a really small community. Most of these players know each other and are in 2-3 guilds that spam bgs all days. There was even a bg tournament today. I say it’s the highest lvl mostly because sometimes it will only take 1 or 2 of these players to completely decimate a regular high mmr bg lobby.

I think there’s too many variables to cyrodiil to call it high lvl PvP.

You could argue duels but again it’s hard to say because it can be a bit rock paper scissors depending on matchups

Edit: talking about pc-na and ps4 na

"high level pvp" died when morrowind released. Anyone else left is just riding on insane items that carry them.

SandandStars · June 26

kurbbie_s wrote: »

"high level pvp" died when morrowind released. Anyone else left is just riding on insane items that carry them.

^^This in a nutshell

It’s 99% gear and class. Try pvp on a necro with vanilla gear and see what happens.

xylena_lazarow · June 26

SandandStars wrote: »

"high level pvp" died when morrowind released. Anyone else left is just riding on insane items that carry them." It’s 99% gear and class. Try pvp on a necro with vanilla gear and see what happens.

This is a common (wrong) sentiment from frustrated casuals, because if it were that easy, you'd run the same broken sets and do all the same things those mega tryhards do. It's not "honor" though it's skill, whether people admit it or not, even the broken classes like MagSorc (which only runs stats not procs) still take some skill.

The only "no skill" argument you can make right now is ranged burst proc ganking, because it's zero risk all reward.

kurbbie_s · June 26

SandandStars wrote: »

kurbbie_s wrote: »

"high level pvp" died when morrowind released. Anyone else left is just riding on insane items that carry them.

^^This in a nutshell

It’s 99% gear and class. Try pvp on a necro with vanilla gear and see what happens.

try pvp on a necro period. The only viable classes are NB, DK, and templar for heals. Everything else sucks in comparison. This games pvp has become a joke.

kurbbie_s · June 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

"high level pvp" died when morrowind released. Anyone else left is just riding on insane items that carry them." It’s 99% gear and class. Try pvp on a necro with vanilla gear and see what happens.

This is a common (wrong) sentiment from frustrated casuals, because if it were that easy, you'd run the same broken sets and do all the same things those mega tryhards do. It's not "honor" though it's skill, whether people admit it or not, even the broken classes like MagSorc (which only runs stats not procs) still take some skill.

The only "no skill" argument you can make right now is ranged burst proc ganking, because it's zero risk all reward.

no. it doesnt, then you claiming im a "casual" to try to dissmiss anything I say is elitism and you can shove it up your ass. Ive been playing since ESO released on xbox.
Like I said, youre a NB main and have no idea what actual pvp is.

xylena_lazarow · June 26

kurbbie_s wrote: »

The only viable classes are NB, DK, and templar for heals. Everything else sucks in comparison. This games pvp has become a joke.

This has to be a troll, right? Right?

reazea · June 26

kurbbie_s wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

kurbbie_s wrote: »

"high level pvp" died when morrowind released. Anyone else left is just riding on insane items that carry them.

^^This in a nutshell

It’s 99% gear and class. Try pvp on a necro with vanilla gear and see what happens.

try pvp on a necro period. The only viable classes are NB, DK, and templar for heals. Everything else sucks in comparison. This games pvp has become a joke.

Sorc and NB are S-tier in PvP right now. Followed by DK and templar. Necro is the weakest dps for sure, but they can be unkillable tanks.

kurbbie_s · June 26

dude really thinks that walking around pressing 1 button while all your procs pop and your items/skills give you massive buffs that no other class has access too is somehow skill.

But here he is, a NB main, complaining about a sorcs shield. You have a 1 button cancel ALL projectiles. 1 button. Thats not skill.

kurbbie_s · June 26

Theignson wrote: »

One of the attractions of PvP is that there are many different ways to play. And you can be very good at some and not good at others. As others have mentioned:
1) 1v1 . Duelers. Not so much a thing in open world but some players are really good 1v1
2) 1 v X. This is a dying breed. But some of them are amazing. Some of them, like React, can 1vX a dozen opponents or more. Others I admire because they are so hard to kill but can take you out if you let your guard down. They dance around with 5-10 players chasing them and rarely die. That is pretty hard actually.
3) Zone generals. Over the last 7 years on EP, I've seen only 4-5 players who can manage a whole faction. This definitely takes skill. Xylena herself was very good at this, for example.
4) Group leaders. This is much harder and more annoying than it looks. Running an efficient, effective , fast, fun group is a rare skill. I will only group with 1 or 2 players anymore since it is so rare.
5) Ball group leaders. Over the years I've occasionally run with some ball groups. The best ones assign a build and a role. The best ball groups, I think of Dracarys, were legendary. It is very hard to to this at a top level. I think of Izanerys, he could really run a ball group. This is also by no means easy.
6) Keep defense. A good, hour long , succesful keep defense is one of my favorite things in ESO. No other game come close to this. But, a weak keep defense is pathetic. Its not so easy to organize a keep defense.
7) Bombers. A good bomber is annoying as heck (why can't I just rep the door in peace?) but you have to admire this niche skill.
8) Gankers. Gankers are a little out of favor in the current meta, but a good gank is not so easy, especially in this age of 40k+ tanks. Especially the "personal" gank, ie melee at close range. The cloak/heavy attack/range/cloak gankers I don't think so highly of. I've tried ganking a fair amount on my NB and for me its the thing that gets the pulse punding more than anything else, its very much high risk/high reward.
9) Siegers. A good sieger, especially defensive siege, is not as common as you might think.
10) Tower humpers. These are usually a group of 2-4 who lure people into towers, run around until they have ultimate, then blast them to smithereens. Usually snowtreader equipper, 3x swift, hard to kill. Not a style of play I enjoy, but some of them are really good at it.
11) PvDoor-ers. There are some amazingly efficient PvDoor groups. Almost as soon as it flags, they flip the keeps. This as opposed to many hoardes of players who, 20 of them stand or jump around while 5 are sieging.
12) Healers. These are really under praised in PvP. But some of them can keep you alive indefinitely.
13) Battle rezzers. There are some players who can rez you in the most improbable of circumstances.
14) Open field batllers. Open field, large scale battles are my favorite. 40 v 40 or more plus a couple groups from another faction thrown in. This requires a different skill set to avoid over committing ; an ebb abd flow style of play.

PvP is great fun with so many roles that most people can become good at something

ball groups are nothing more than addon watchers. Thats it. If youve ran with ball groups then youd know their entire screen is filled with addons telling them, when and what to do. Its not skill.

xylena_lazarow · June 26

kurbbie_s wrote: »

dude really thinks that walking around pressing 1 button
...
sorcs shield.. 1 button cancel... 1 button. Thats not skill.

FTFY

adirondack · June 26

I’m enjoying my popcorn.

React · June 26

Consistent, solo outnumbered PVP is the hardest thing to do today. Not just hunting the most inexperienced players for highlight reels, but consistently surviving and securing kills while outnumbered against players of varying skill levels without using some pure tank build that can only kill inept players. In my personal opinion, today's ESO is the hardest it's ever been to be consistently successful while solo outnumbered.

The next hardest thing is probably 2v2/3v3 between skilled players, as at those numbers coordination is extremely important, but you typically can't afford to run a full healer who can drastically carry your survivability like you can at 4+. Therefore the skill and performance of the players is much more crucial than it is in scenarios where a healer is present.

Everything after that is debatable, but I don't have any doubts these are the top two hardest formats of PVP to be consistently successful at right now.

Theignson · June 26

kurbbie_s wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

"high level pvp" died when morrowind released. Anyone else left is just riding on insane items that carry them." It’s 99% gear and class. Try pvp on a necro with vanilla gear and see what happens.

This is a common (wrong) sentiment from frustrated casuals, because if it were that easy, you'd run the same broken sets and do all the same things those mega tryhards do. It's not "honor" though it's skill, whether people admit it or not, even the broken classes like MagSorc (which only runs stats not procs) still take some skill.

The only "no skill" argument you can make right now is ranged burst proc ganking, because it's zero risk all reward.

no. it doesnt, then you claiming im a "casual" to try to dissmiss anything I say is elitism and you can shove it up your ass. Ive been playing since ESO released on xbox.
Like I said, youre a NB main and have no idea what actual pvp is.

Must be a troll.
In the old days, 7-8 years ago, Xylena was a DK. I think she has played some Arcanist recently also. I don't think you were ever a NB, right Xy? Or maybe you have played all classes at some point like many of us old timers.

xylena_lazarow · June 26

Theignson wrote: »

In the old days, 7-8 years ago, Xylena was a DK. I think she has played some Arcanist recently also. I don't think you were ever a NB, right Xy? Or maybe you have played all classes at some point like many of us old timers.

All of them, currently Warden thanks to scribbles.

I'm still leaning towards strict ruleset dueling being the hardest. Open world lets me get away with a lot of mistakes that would get me killed when my only opponent is a top level player, and there's no LoS option.

SandandStars · June 26

Seriously Xylena, put your warden in a full set of Shattered Fate, no vamp, and go up against experienced players who ride the current meta.

Not being salty or trolling, but would genuinely be interested to test my statement that eso is meta gear/proc/class carry more than skill.

Stridig · June 26

kurbbie_s wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

"high level pvp" died when morrowind released. Anyone else left is just riding on insane items that carry them." It’s 99% gear and class. Try pvp on a necro with vanilla gear and see what happens.

This is a common (wrong) sentiment from frustrated casuals, because if it were that easy, you'd run the same broken sets and do all the same things those mega tryhards do. It's not "honor" though it's skill, whether people admit it or not, even the broken classes like MagSorc (which only runs stats not procs) still take some skill.

The only "no skill" argument you can make right now is ranged burst proc ganking, because it's zero risk all reward.

no. it doesnt, then you claiming im a "casual" to try to dissmiss anything I say is elitism and you can shove it up your ass. Ive been playing since ESO released on xbox.
Like I said, youre a NB main and have no idea what actual pvp is.

Xylena most certainly knows what actual PvP is.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · June 26

kurbbie_s wrote: »

Theignson wrote: »

One of the attractions of PvP is that there are many different ways to play. And you can be very good at some and not good at others. As others have mentioned:
1) 1v1 . Duelers. Not so much a thing in open world but some players are really good 1v1
2) 1 v X. This is a dying breed. But some of them are amazing. Some of them, like React, can 1vX a dozen opponents or more. Others I admire because they are so hard to kill but can take you out if you let your guard down. They dance around with 5-10 players chasing them and rarely die. That is pretty hard actually.
3) Zone generals. Over the last 7 years on EP, I've seen only 4-5 players who can manage a whole faction. This definitely takes skill. Xylena herself was very good at this, for example.
4) Group leaders. This is much harder and more annoying than it looks. Running an efficient, effective , fast, fun group is a rare skill. I will only group with 1 or 2 players anymore since it is so rare.
5) Ball group leaders. Over the years I've occasionally run with some ball groups. The best ones assign a build and a role. The best ball groups, I think of Dracarys, were legendary. It is very hard to to this at a top level. I think of Izanerys, he could really run a ball group. This is also by no means easy.
6) Keep defense. A good, hour long , succesful keep defense is one of my favorite things in ESO. No other game come close to this. But, a weak keep defense is pathetic. Its not so easy to organize a keep defense.
7) Bombers. A good bomber is annoying as heck (why can't I just rep the door in peace?) but you have to admire this niche skill.
8) Gankers. Gankers are a little out of favor in the current meta, but a good gank is not so easy, especially in this age of 40k+ tanks. Especially the "personal" gank, ie melee at close range. The cloak/heavy attack/range/cloak gankers I don't think so highly of. I've tried ganking a fair amount on my NB and for me its the thing that gets the pulse punding more than anything else, its very much high risk/high reward.
9) Siegers. A good sieger, especially defensive siege, is not as common as you might think.
10) Tower humpers. These are usually a group of 2-4 who lure people into towers, run around until they have ultimate, then blast them to smithereens. Usually snowtreader equipper, 3x swift, hard to kill. Not a style of play I enjoy, but some of them are really good at it.
11) PvDoor-ers. There are some amazingly efficient PvDoor groups. Almost as soon as it flags, they flip the keeps. This as opposed to many hoardes of players who, 20 of them stand or jump around while 5 are sieging.
12) Healers. These are really under praised in PvP. But some of them can keep you alive indefinitely.
13) Battle rezzers. There are some players who can rez you in the most improbable of circumstances.
14) Open field batllers. Open field, large scale battles are my favorite. 40 v 40 or more plus a couple groups from another faction thrown in. This requires a different skill set to avoid over committing ; an ebb abd flow style of play.

PvP is great fun with so many roles that most people can become good at something

ball groups are nothing more than addon watchers. Thats it. If youve ran with ball groups then youd know their entire screen is filled with addons telling them, when and what to do. Its not skill.

Just saying ball groups existed long before addons were made to assist with ultimate coordination and synergy uptime. Tbh most people have this stuff on their screen but they don't really know why or how to effectively use it. It's only really useful for the lead to see so much info to know whether to push or not. In a lot of situations it would be better if people in group saw none of it and verbally communicated instead (outside of just seeing the buff/synergy uptimes of things they provide).

In general I think the level of pvp play kind of revolves a lot around the meta and state of PVP. For example if you look at purely 'ball groups' I would say there have been much harder times to be a ball group in general but also to be one of the best groups is also fairly difficult. Its kind of hard to compare different types of pvp with each other, I would lean more to React's comment, I think in the current game state purely solo gameplay that can take on a range of enemies at the same time, not just bad players is some of the hardest gameplay left in the game. I also have a lot of respect for the 5-6m groups doing the same but at a larger scale.

A lot of fights these days tend to just be equal number or groups practically outnumbering their enemies (certainly when it comes to most ball group vs pug fights this is often the case). I miss the days of 12-16 vs 30-60m groups that we used to have.

Also thanks Theignson it's kind of you to say that.

xylena_lazarow · June 26

SandandStars wrote: »

Not being salty or trolling, but would genuinely be interested to test my statement that eso is meta gear/proc/class carry more than skill.

Two good players run the same meta build. Now what?

SandandStars · June 26

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Not being salty or trolling, but would genuinely be interested to test my statement that eso is meta gear/proc/class carry more than skill.

Two good players run the same meta build. Now what?

that’s not the point, the point is the current meta cheese proc chasers have an inordinate advantage over anyone trying to use skill rather than meta procs. the gear & build outweigh skill

does that make sense?

xylena_lazarow · June 27

SandandStars wrote: »

that’s not the point, the point is the current meta cheese proc chasers have an inordinate advantage over anyone trying to use skill rather than meta procs. the gear & build outweigh skill

Good players don't gimp themselves with bad gear just to prove a point. Running good builds is part of the skill demanded. Minmaxing is more than just choosing proc sets. MagSorc is more broken on stat builds than proc builds. If you don't want ARPG minmaxing to be part of the skill being tested, there's fighters like Smash, shooters like Fortnite, etc.

My Warden has been running a mix of stat sets and proc sets. Do you think the Order's Wrath stat version takes more skill than the Winterborn proc version where I'm ideally lining up the proc with my Shalks combo? I've found the stat version superior and also much easier to play, I don't need to think about my 5pc at all, and the crits make me heal a lot more.

SandandStars · June 27

hah. gimped with bad sets wasnt what i was trying to convey

you mention shalks, lining them up & timing them

this is a great example of a skill that requires a bit of… skill to use effectively

compare this to tarnished nightmare, way of fire, or the skill flames of oblivion

with the latter, the proc gear or autopilot skill is doing the damage for you, with little to no thought or effort

one more example, with hopes of clarifying the distinction

how many people do you see spamming radiant oppression vs fatecarver in pvp?

and i dont mean spamming colorless pool til you freeze someone for eternity, i mean actually aiming fatecarver at a moving target

you see very few. yet tanky shield blocking radiant spamming plars are fairly popular, because, it requires less skill to do well on the build

the game design incentivizes meta gear & classes over ability

SandandStars · June 27

and by the way, what are you running with Orders Wrath on your warden? i’m genuinely curious. OW complements wardens crit dmg & strong heals, would love to know what else youre running with it.

xylena_lazarow · June 27

SandandStars wrote: »

and by the way, what are you running with Orders Wrath on your warden? i’m genuinely curious. OW complements wardens crit dmg & strong heals, would love to know what else youre running with it.

Still iterating as I relearn the class. I'm curious if you consider this a stat build or proc build, and how difficult you think this build would be to pilot. The rotations are much more dynamic than that of the Arc I last mained.

SandandStars · June 27

Thanks- really appreciate you sharing. This build looks solid, taking advantage of masters ice staff chilled n brittle crit bonuses etc. I would consider this much more of a stat build, requiring good/dynamic piloting, with only masters dw axes a little op/free dmg but i think they tuned it down recently? i was away from the game for awhile.

Haven’t used the saint n the seducer, Looks great for pvp (i usually go markyn on warden).

I have one question that is really splitting hairs, but again, I’m curious to know from somebody whos got good knowledge of the game: Wouldn’t it make sense to use two trainee pieces and make up the health difference with attribute points? or, I guess youre just building full hi health/min magicka, which makes sense on warden?

again, thanks for sharing the build.

theres a guy on xbox na who leans heavy into crit damage on his khajit warden, combining frost reach brittle with arterial burst. His crit damage must be maxed out, because even with rallying cry up, he can still shred you.

xylena_lazarow · June 27

SandandStars wrote: »

Wouldn’t it make sense to use two trainee pieces and make up the health difference with attribute points? or, I guess youre just building full hi health/min magicka, which makes sense on warden?

theres a guy on xbox na who leans heavy into crit damage on his khajit warden, combining frost reach brittle with arterial burst. His crit damage must be maxed out, because even with rallying cry up, he can still shred you.

Already at 64 hp, the second Trainee would bring me to 16.9k max mag which isn't really doing much here. Max hp is the only defensive stat I'm investing in. You could probably do some sort of race minmax but I only play Orc. When S&S rolls Major Force, I'm at 2.21x cd (just below the cap) with Brittle further pushing crits.

Firstmep · June 27

Chiming in. I dont think procsets are no skill carry, but we are unfortunately once again at the point where you can run multiple proc sets and still be pretty tanky.
When procs were changed to scale with offensive stats I dont think zos envisioned being able to sport 6-7 wpd/spd on top while still having 2k plus double recoveries.
On my templar I can rock 2 dot procs with subpar minor bonuses and still push 7k spell damage and 2k plus recoveries. How is a player not making use of the best meta sets supposed to compete with that.
And than we have all the hp scaling defenses that were added/buffed to enable all classes to tank in pve.
And finally, undeath, the worst best passive for pvp atm, the level of tankiness between players running it or not is just insane.

divnyi · June 27

@xylena_lazarow nice to see crit sets being used by someone else, I've been rolling Sul-Xan's Torment for quite a while on different characters. How do you deal with sustain? Those numbers look way too low for me, maybe that's BG perspective as cyro is more initial impact oriented.