Fix Swallow soul and/or the Ranged version of Nightblade.

Theist_VII · May 27

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Gotta agree with @FoJul on this one.

To me it honestly sounds like you’ve never used the set, because your “experience” with it is contrary to the experiences we’ve had, players that have quite literally built into it, and tried it.

The set very clearly does not work with Siphoning Strikes, neither does it give the healing of Swallow Soul an additional 18%.

If your claim is that they are multiplying each other, than provide proof of it so we can rest the case in regards to the set’s functionality, instead of throwing out some claim that our experience is “complete fiction.”

Been using it for months on my pvp setup, it is absolutely working for swallow soul and offering, only thing it isn't working for is the new siphoning attacks.

Out of combat tooltips for SS and offering, only buff is minor mending:

In combat tooltips, for the same, with soulcleaver 5p active:

43% * 1.18 = 50.7%. The damage goes up, and the healing ratio goes up, netting a total increase to the healing of about 36%.
15344 * 1.18 = 18106 so oh look that lines up too and yes, my healing taken numbers match.

So you’re showing an adjusted tooltip, but does it actually translate in-game? We’ve seen several times where they don’t.

Essentially what FoJul and I are saying is that our skill does not feel as though it is healing as much as that. My Swallow Soul should be healing for a 4th of the damage pre-Battle Spirit based on the changes made to skills that heal off of damage made patches ago, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Maybe it’s getting destroyed by the Battle Spirit healing reduction when it shouldn’t, double dipping like Puncturing Sweeps on Templar.

Also want to add, that although it was mentioned that the set isn’t working with Healthy Offering, I have never felt that problem, where I have explicitly felt a lack of interaction with Swallow Soul’s heal.

ArctosCethlenn · May 27

Telos_Tim wrote: »

So you’re showing an adjusted tooltip, but does it actually translate in-game? We’ve seen several times where they don’t.

Essentially what FoJul and I are saying is that our skill does not feel as though it is healing as much as that. My Swallow Soul should be healing for a 4th of the damage pre-Battle Spirit based on the changes made to skills that heal off of damage made patches ago, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Maybe it’s getting destroyed by the Battle Spirit healing reduction when it shouldn’t, double dipping like Puncturing Sweeps on Templar.

Also want to add, that although it was mentioned that the set isn’t working with Healthy Offering, I have never felt that problem, where I have explicitly felt a lack of interaction with Swallow Soul’s heal.

It's math though, your feelings don't matter.
and yes, it does translate in game. I checked before arguing; the tooltips on SS and offering did match the actual healing I took from the skills, and I also had removed any items or CP which gave % increases to healing taken, to make the check easier.

It also isn't double dipping on battle spirit or anything like that, though the numbers are always going to be fuzzier in pvp since there're so many sources of mitigation; if someone blocks your swallow soul it'll only heal for x% of that blocked damage, which could easily translate to a hot for less than 400 per tick, or you tag some squishy dude for 13k and the hot is significantly larger.

If you really wanna adjust swallow soul/siphoning in general, right now if a skill does damage and heals for a portion of the damage done, when the damage is absorbed by hardened ward, barrier, impervious runeward, or any shield skill: swallow soul, tether, merciless resolve and the like will all treat that as doing zero damage. Which means they do zero healing because any percent of 0 is 0. It makes all those shield-spammy classes more of a hard counter to siphoner magblade, because their absorption skills remove so much healing from us.

ArctosCethlenn · May 27

Oh, and not siphoning specific: fix structured entropy already, it shouldn't break stealth and cloak every time it ticks, no other sticky dot functions that way

Turtle_Bot · May 27

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Maybe it’s getting destroyed by the Battle Spirit healing reduction when it shouldn’t, double dipping like Puncturing Sweeps on Templar.

Honestly, this is likely the case. The heal from swallow soul has always felt non-existent in PvP, and it's not like this would be the first time battle spirit is double dipping into things it shouldn't be double dipping into.

Turtle_Bot · May 27

FoJul wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Probably should have brought this topic back up at the beginning of this PTS cycle, it might be too late for any meaningful changes this update.
Ranged Nightblade is in a weird spot, while I agree it needs to be buffed, I don’t know how buffing Swallow Soul would interact with Soulcleaver.

Currently, my Magicka Nightblade is tool-tipping higher than Uppercut with that set equipped and is devastating against melee users… that being said, I feel as though the set is bugged. Swallow Soul should be double dipping into it for the healing but that doesn’t seem to be the case as any amount of pressure from ranged out-right flattens the build because the healing-over-time can’t keep up.

The healing is based on damage done, it deliberately does not double dip if I remember correctly. If it did, it would be even worse than you can imagine because it would be effected by battlespirit twice. Damage done AND healing received reduction.

They talked about this in a patch a long time ago, but I can't remember which one.

No, the set gives 18% damage done, and 18% increased healing, so in theory, you should be getting ~36 efficiency from the skill.

Obviously you get back a smaller percentage on the heal compared to the damage, but that value should be increased by 36% not 18% like what I feel is currently happening.

A ranged Siphon-Blade should have heal-over-times that match a Templar outside of their rune with Bubble, but it’s not even remotely close.

The 18% more dmg from soul cleaver is what makes Swallow soul's healing more. The 18% healing increase does not affect it. Further more it doesn't effect healthy offering either. The only time the 18% more healing bonus comes into play is with Siphoning Attacks

Then it has to be bugged, because there is no logical reasoning why both of those shouldn’t be working.

Swallow Soul does damage, and then heals, if the game was registering it properly, it would increase the damage, making the 35% heal off the larger number, then that new number should be affected by the healing increase.

The fact that it doesn’t, is the sole reason why MagBlade can’t survive in that set, regardless of the bugged lack of interaction with Healthy Offering.

They really need to fix these Infinite Archive sets… almost all of them are not working as intended.

I actually, made a forum about that, and people said it's working as intended. Even though I have done extensive practicing with the set, and never really felt the full benefits...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/646519/class-set-bug#latest

nothing was ever done, and no dev comment either.

Seems to be a trend with the class sets, even on their release patch, the vast majority of the feedback was completely ignored (especially for the sorc set that to this day is still not even worth farming for, due to how bad it is, even for role play, to the point that even base game sets such as overwhelming surge/Illambris, are just objectively better than it)...
Necro - Unusable (bugged)

DK - Barely usable, but not really (bugged)

Sorc - why does this even exist (so badly designed from the start that it was not usable (even for roleplay) from the get-go)

Plar - mediocre (downside is still too harsh, even after the adjustments)

Arcanist - mediocre (doesn't really add anything unique or fun)

Warden - mediocre (see Arcanist)

NB - mediocre (bugged)

It also seems like they have just put aside the concept of class sets entirely for the other skill lines too. We've had zero communication regarding any fixes for the existing sets (despite months of feedback and data being provided about bugs/design flaws/etc.) or announcements for sets for the other lines.

@ZOS_Kevin some acknowledgement on this issue would be appreciated. Half the sets are still bugged, and the other half are so badly designed that they aren't even worth farming, let alone using, even for roleplay, and we have had no word on if these sets (which were touted as a big feature of Infinite Archive) are even on the teams radar for fixes/updates or even if we are getting any sets for the other class skill lines.

But, this post wasn't about class sets. I shouldn't need a class set to make Ranged Mageblade playable. I should be able to use regular sets or even proc sets, and still be able to perform well with class skills, just like any other class.

It may not be about the class sets directly, but the fact that it does exist needs to be taken into account when discussing changes to NB siphoning skills.

To re-iterate:

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Also want to add, that although we shouldn’t need a class set to make a SiphonBlade work, the current design of the set is inseparable from the playstyle and is therefore necessary to the conversation when any ideas of buffing it are brought to the table.

It shouldn't be needed, but since it does exist, and is directly linked to SS, it does need to be at least discussed.

Theist_VII · May 27

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

So you’re showing an adjusted tooltip, but does it actually translate in-game? We’ve seen several times where they don’t.

Essentially what FoJul and I are saying is that our skill does not feel as though it is healing as much as that. My Swallow Soul should be healing for a 4th of the damage pre-Battle Spirit based on the changes made to skills that heal off of damage made patches ago, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Maybe it’s getting destroyed by the Battle Spirit healing reduction when it shouldn’t, double dipping like Puncturing Sweeps on Templar.

Also want to add, that although it was mentioned that the set isn’t working with Healthy Offering, I have never felt that problem, where I have explicitly felt a lack of interaction with Swallow Soul’s heal.

I checked before arguing…

I’m not going to argue with you about the fact that Swallow Soul isn’t providing a fraction of the healing it should when even you provided the numbers to support my frustrations.

Something is up with the skill or set synergy, deny it all you want it makes no difference, ZOS tooltips are excessively deceptive as we’ve seen countless times where numbers aren’t quite what they seem or are being effected by unknown variables, not to mention the fact that there is an established baseline of problems with the class sets to begin with, you’ve even acknowledged it with Siphoning Strikes, within the same skill line, for the same set so it goes without saying there is reason to be suspicious.

Theist_VII · May 27

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Maybe it’s getting destroyed by the Battle Spirit healing reduction when it shouldn’t, double dipping like Puncturing Sweeps on Templar.

Honestly, this is likely the case. The heal from swallow soul has always felt non-existent in PvP, and it's not like this would be the first time battle spirit is double dipping into things it shouldn't be double dipping into.

When I finally get some free time I think I’m going to test this just to be sure, but I do have a creeping suspicion that this is what our problem is.

ArctosCethlenn · May 27

Telos_Tim wrote: »

I’m not going to argue with you about the fact that Swallow Soul isn’t providing a fraction of the healing it should when even you provided the numbers to support my frustrations.

Something is up with the skill or set synergy, deny it all you want it makes no difference, ZOS tooltips are excessively deceptive as we’ve seen countless times where numbers aren’t quite what they seem or are being effected by unknown variables, not to mention the fact that there is an established baseline of problems with the class sets to begin with, you’ve even acknowledged it with Siphoning Strikes, within the same skill line, for the same set so it goes without saying there is reason to be suspicious.

The numbers I gave disprove what you're saying though. What, exactly, specifically, do you think the +18% healing portion of soulcleaver is supposed to do to swallow soul's healing? Because right now it works as it says;

D = damage, R = healing ratio

without soulcleaver: D*R = Heal Value
With soulcleaver: (D*1.18)*(R*1.18) = Heal Value.

So if D = 1000 and R = 0.35 (35%), you get a hot for 350 per tick without soulcleaver

and if you then put soulcleaver into the mix with other stats being equal it becomes

(1000*1.18)*(0.35*1.18) = Heal Value
1180 * 0.413 = 487.xx

Which is what happens in reality.

% healing increases like champion points, gear, soulcleaver and passives are all going to multiply with R, swallow soul's healing ratio, just like they'd multiply with any other skill's tooltip; If you slot Focused Mending for +10% single target healing done, swallow soul's ratio on the tooltip doesn't become 35% + 10% = 45%, it becomes 35% * 1.1 = 38.5%. But the final real healing number after the math happens will be 10% higher than it was without FM.

Shagreth · May 28

@ZOS_Kevin Kevin, I almost forgot about this, while I've given up on my Necromancer - I still have my Ice Warden and my Nightblade, but I like to play a ranged & siphoning NB, which right now is quite weak, a buff to Soul Tether etc. would be greatly appreciated. Some good feedback in this thread regarding some issues ranged NB's face.

DrNukenstein · May 28

The answer to jacked magsorcs is not jacked ranged blades.

Shagreth · May 29

DrNukenstein wrote: »

The answer to jacked magsorcs is not jacked ranged blades.

So you would deny us some much needed buffs just because one class got out of hand?

CrazyKitty · May 29

Shagreth wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

The answer to jacked magsorcs is not jacked ranged blades.

So you would deny us some much needed buffs just because one class got out of hand?

NB's don't need buffs, they need nerfs. NB's currently have the strongest burst damage and the strongest burst heal in the game. NB's have the most versatile tool kit in the game, and they have cloak. Asking for more is asking for the classes to be even more out of balance than they already are.

Theist_VII · May 29

CrazyKitty wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

DrNukenstein wrote: »

The answer to jacked magsorcs is not jacked ranged blades.

So you would deny us some much needed buffs just because one class got out of hand?

NB's don't need buffs, they need nerfs. NB's currently have the strongest burst damage and the strongest burst heal in the game. NB's have the most versatile tool kit in the game, and they have cloak. Asking for more is asking for the classes to be even more out of balance than they already are.

There’s no reason why that class power budget can’t be rearranged to make other playstyles more viable.

For example, compare both Swallow Soul and Concealed Weapon… one is too heavily loaded of a skill with four different things that it does while the other only heals for a percentage.

Nobody is asking for a buff to Cloak or Merciless Resolve…

xylena_lazarow · May 29

Yup, that's what's wrong with NB, Healthy Offering doesn't heal enough, really needs that extra 18%.

Seriously though, while Swallow Soul is still inexplicably bad, ranged NBs are everywhere running 3 proc sets doing massive damage from complete safety, healing to their full 18k hp in a single Healthy click.

DrNukenstein · May 29

Shagreth wrote: »

So you would deny us some much needed buffs just because one class got out of hand?

Ranged blade has been out of hand for patches now. If you think it needs buffs you are doing it wrong. It's a melee class btw. Stealth is for going to, not going away from.

Shagreth · May 29

@DrNukenstein

My post was about PvE. I should have clarified.

DrNukenstein · May 29

Shagreth wrote: »

My post was about PvE. I should have clarified.

that's not a ranged-blade problem. It's ranged weapon design in this game, they are intended to do less damage. Sorc gets around this intended design with extreme mag scaling to make up for loss of w/s damage and overload which allows them to do 1.5x spammable damage as a ranged light attack with whatever weapon they want.

FoJul · May 30

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

So you would deny us some much needed buffs just because one class got out of hand?

Ranged blade has been out of hand for patches now. If you think it needs buffs you are doing it wrong. It's a melee class btw. Stealth is for going to, not going away from.

its not only a melee class...Thats like saying magsorc is ranged only.

Mageblade is not out of hand. What you meant to say is gankers.

Dont put rangeblade under a ganker status...Cause its just not.

Shagreth · May 30

DrNukenstein wrote: »

that's not a ranged-blade problem. It's ranged weapon design in this game, they are intended to do less damage. Sorc gets around this intended design with extreme mag scaling to make up for loss of w/s damage and overload which allows them to do 1.5x spammable damage as a ranged light attack with whatever weapon they want.

Then they should fix it. Even a small bump in damage would help NB's greatly, the siphoning tree is a joke as it is. The amount of focus and precision required to reach an acceptable level of dps with such a build is insane, not Necromancer level, but yeah.

DrNukenstein · May 30

FoJul wrote: »

its not only a melee class...Thats like saying magsorc is ranged only.

Mageblade is not out of hand. What you meant to say is gankers.

Dont put rangeblade under a ganker status...Cause its just not.

Ranged blade is below ganker status. It is the rattiest play style in the game. If it were weak and difficult it would not be as popular as it is. I am sorry you are not one of those ranged blades that's chunking people for a 3rd to half their health with crushing shock heavy weaves out of cloak.

DrNukenstein · May 30

Shagreth wrote: »

Then they should fix it. Even a small bump in damage would help NB's greatly, the siphoning tree is a joke as it is. The amount of focus and precision required to reach an acceptable level of dps with such a build is insane, not Necromancer level, but yeah.

No they shouldn't lol. They should not prop up invisible ranged just because it is not strong enough for you and @FoJul to do well with it.

FoJul · June 2

DrNukenstein wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

its not only a melee class...Thats like saying magsorc is ranged only.

Mageblade is not out of hand. What you meant to say is gankers.

Dont put rangeblade under a ganker status...Cause its just not.

Ranged blade is below ganker status. It is the rattiest play style in the game. If it were weak and difficult it would not be as popular as it is. I am sorry you are not one of those ranged blades that's chunking people for a 3rd to half their health with crushing shock heavy weaves out of cloak.

Sounds like you get ganked too often, and want to take it out on the whole class. Maybe have more than 15k hp?

ProudMary · June 2

There's nothing broken with these skills. NB is already OP S-tier.

Shagreth · June 2

ProudMary wrote: »

There's nothing broken with these skills. NB is already OP S-tier.

Anyone that says that Swallow Soul is good in PvE doesn't know what they're talking about, it's one of the most nerfed abilities in the game, this really needs to change.

All I see in this post is salty people that got one shot in PvP, but the reality is that Swallow is an extremely weak spammable. They need to bring everything else down though, true, mostly because of PvP complications.

NyassaV · June 2

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

Then they should fix it. Even a small bump in damage would help NB's greatly, the siphoning tree is a joke as it is. The amount of focus and precision required to reach an acceptable level of dps with such a build is insane, not Necromancer level, but yeah.

No they shouldn't lol. They should not prop up invisible ranged just because it is not strong enough for you and @FoJul to do well with it.

It sounds like you're referring to people who ganked withy a ranged playstyle on Nightblade. Which is not what this discussion is about. Someone who plays ranged magblade as a ganker and will use a different set of skills and sets then ones who don't intend to play that way.

NyassaV · June 2

ProudMary wrote: »

There's nothing broken with these skills. NB is already OP S-tier.

None of the skills we have discussed here have made Nightblade S tier. And before you complain about healthy offering resetting a fight, Coag can do the same thing.

FoJul · June 2

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Shagreth wrote: »

Then they should fix it. Even a small bump in damage would help NB's greatly, the siphoning tree is a joke as it is. The amount of focus and precision required to reach an acceptable level of dps with such a build is insane, not Necromancer level, but yeah.

No they shouldn't lol. They should not prop up invisible ranged just because it is not strong enough for you and @FoJul to do well with it.

Aren't you one of those gankers anyways? Don't question my skill, this is forums. I can make rangeblade work, I just have to deal with drawback, unlike melee blade/DK/ and wardens.

And no, I'm not finna switch to ganking bc thats the only viable option...I would go back to melee before doing that.

The only thing that makes gankers even confident to speak in forums is stealth. Dev team can rip stealth away, I WOULD BE HAPPY. Im tired of my class being power creeped bc of gankers. Sure ganking has always been around, but is frowned upon by anyone in PvP.

Theist_VII · July 8

Telos_Tim wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

So you’re showing an adjusted tooltip, but does it actually translate in-game? We’ve seen several times where they don’t.

Essentially what FoJul and I are saying is that our skill does not feel as though it is healing as much as that. My Swallow Soul should be healing for a 4th of the damage pre-Battle Spirit based on the changes made to skills that heal off of damage made patches ago, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Maybe it’s getting destroyed by the Battle Spirit healing reduction when it shouldn’t, double dipping like Puncturing Sweeps on Templar.

Also want to add, that although it was mentioned that the set isn’t working with Healthy Offering, I have never felt that problem, where I have explicitly felt a lack of interaction with Swallow Soul’s heal.

I checked before arguing…

I’m not going to argue with you about the fact that Swallow Soul isn’t providing a fraction of the healing it should when even you provided the numbers to support my frustrations.

Something is up with the skill or set synergy, deny it all you want it makes no difference, ZOS tooltips are excessively deceptive as we’ve seen countless times where numbers aren’t quite what they seem or are being effected by unknown variables, not to mention the fact that there is an established baseline of problems with the class sets to begin with, you’ve even acknowledged it with Siphoning Strikes, within the same skill line, for the same set so it goes without saying there is reason to be suspicious.

What did I say?

Why is it commonplace on these forums to argue with people about everything?

Instead of denying @FoJul and my experience using Strife, give people the benefit of the doubt, if they’re saying something is up, there’s always a problem.

FoJul · July 8

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

So you’re showing an adjusted tooltip, but does it actually translate in-game? We’ve seen several times where they don’t.

Essentially what FoJul and I are saying is that our skill does not feel as though it is healing as much as that. My Swallow Soul should be healing for a 4th of the damage pre-Battle Spirit based on the changes made to skills that heal off of damage made patches ago, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Maybe it’s getting destroyed by the Battle Spirit healing reduction when it shouldn’t, double dipping like Puncturing Sweeps on Templar.

Also want to add, that although it was mentioned that the set isn’t working with Healthy Offering, I have never felt that problem, where I have explicitly felt a lack of interaction with Swallow Soul’s heal.

I checked before arguing…

I’m not going to argue with you about the fact that Swallow Soul isn’t providing a fraction of the healing it should when even you provided the numbers to support my frustrations.

Something is up with the skill or set synergy, deny it all you want it makes no difference, ZOS tooltips are excessively deceptive as we’ve seen countless times where numbers aren’t quite what they seem or are being effected by unknown variables, not to mention the fact that there is an established baseline of problems with the class sets to begin with, you’ve even acknowledged it with Siphoning Strikes, within the same skill line, for the same set so it goes without saying there is reason to be suspicious.

What did I say?

Why is it commonplace on these forums to argue with people about everything?

Instead of denying @FoJul and my experience using Strife, give people the benefit of the doubt, if they’re saying something is up, there’s always a problem.

Some people, just need the facts written in clear language, directly from the devs themselves. Rather than listening to the people who actually play the game. lol

ArctosCethlenn · July 8

But fixing how SS interacts with a blocking target is not at all related to your repeated and entirely wrong claims that the soulcleaver set was bugged and not working with swallow soul?