Fix Swallow soul and/or the Ranged version of Nightblade.

FoJul

I'm tired of defending an underwhelming class problem over and over again. So my information will be coming from other post.

We all know what state Range Magblade is in. Everyone both PvP and PvE know's. Please for the love of Almalexia, please give rangeblade some help. Will accept anything at this point.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/651929/swallow-who-oh-swallow-soul/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/641162/ranged-vs-melee-magblade-does-range-even-exist/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/643352/ranged-magicka-nightblade-underwhelming-mageblade/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638190/is-ranged-magblade-just-forgotten-im-genuinely-confused#latest

Theist_VII

Probably should have brought this topic back up at the beginning of this PTS cycle, it might be too late for any meaningful changes this update.

Ranged Nightblade is in a weird spot, while I agree it needs to be buffed, I don’t know how buffing Swallow Soul would interact with Soulcleaver.

Currently, my Magicka Nightblade is tool-tipping higher than Uppercut with that set equipped and is devastating against melee users… that being said, I feel as though the set is bugged. Swallow Soul should be double dipping into it for the healing but that doesn’t seem to be the case as any amount of pressure from ranged out-right flattens the build because the healing-over-time can’t keep up.

MashmalloMan

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Probably should have brought this topic back up at the beginning of this PTS cycle, it might be too late for any meaningful changes this update.

Ranged Nightblade is in a weird spot, while I agree it needs to be buffed, I don’t know how buffing Swallow Soul would interact with Soulcleaver.

Currently, my Magicka Nightblade is tool-tipping higher than Uppercut with that set equipped and is devastating against melee users… that being said, I feel as though the set is bugged. Swallow Soul should be double dipping into it for the healing but that doesn’t seem to be the case as any amount of pressure from ranged out-right flattens the build because the healing-over-time can’t keep up.

The healing is based on damage done, it deliberately does not double dip if I remember correctly. If it did, it would be even worse than you can imagine because it would be effected by battlespirit twice. Damage done AND healing received reduction.

They talked about this in a patch a long time ago, but I can't remember which one.

Theist_VII

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Probably should have brought this topic back up at the beginning of this PTS cycle, it might be too late for any meaningful changes this update.

Ranged Nightblade is in a weird spot, while I agree it needs to be buffed, I don’t know how buffing Swallow Soul would interact with Soulcleaver.

Currently, my Magicka Nightblade is tool-tipping higher than Uppercut with that set equipped and is devastating against melee users… that being said, I feel as though the set is bugged. Swallow Soul should be double dipping into it for the healing but that doesn’t seem to be the case as any amount of pressure from ranged out-right flattens the build because the healing-over-time can’t keep up.

The healing is based on damage done, it deliberately does not double dip if I remember correctly. If it did, it would be even worse than you can imagine because it would be effected by battlespirit twice. Damage done AND healing received reduction.

They talked about this in a patch a long time ago, but I can't remember which one.

No, the set gives 18% damage done, and 18% increased healing, so in theory, you should be getting ~36 efficiency from the skill.

Obviously you get back a smaller percentage on the heal compared to the damage, but that value should be increased by 36% not 18% like what I feel is currently happening.

A ranged Siphon-Blade should have heal-over-times that match a Templar outside of their rune with Bubble, but it’s not even remotely close.

FoJul

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Probably should have brought this topic back up at the beginning of this PTS cycle, it might be too late for any meaningful changes this update.

Ranged Nightblade is in a weird spot, while I agree it needs to be buffed, I don’t know how buffing Swallow Soul would interact with Soulcleaver.

Currently, my Magicka Nightblade is tool-tipping higher than Uppercut with that set equipped and is devastating against melee users… that being said, I feel as though the set is bugged. Swallow Soul should be double dipping into it for the healing but that doesn’t seem to be the case as any amount of pressure from ranged out-right flattens the build because the healing-over-time can’t keep up.

The healing is based on damage done, it deliberately does not double dip if I remember correctly. If it did, it would be even worse than you can imagine because it would be effected by battlespirit twice. Damage done AND healing received reduction.

They talked about this in a patch a long time ago, but I can't remember which one.

He's referring too the soulcleaver added 18% to healing. It adds to the 30% i think from the ability alone. so in total it should do 48% ish healing. But you also gotta count the PvP healing reduction and stuff.

Side note...Don't know if it is meant to crit heal, but Swallow soul doe not crit heal.

Also, @Telos_Tim I can make a tooltip swallow soul get to 20k, but it still doesn't translate. Show me Combat metrics comparisons if you don't mind.

Theist_VII

I’m pretty sure Swallow is being double dipped negatively, I would love to post a clip showcasing it but I’m at work, if anyone else has the free time to hop on and show the difference in healing with and without Battle Spirit, it would help the discussion.

That being said, Soulcleaver also does not work with Siphoning Strikes strangely enough, next to Necromancer’s set that doesn’t work at all. There really needs to be a pass at those Archive sets to fix them.

Theist_VII

FoJul wrote: »

Also, @Telos_Tim I can make a tooltip swallow soul get to 20k, but it still doesn't translate. Show me Combat metrics comparisons if you don't mind.

What are you looking for?

Ultimately it boils down to Concealed Weapon doing too much, and Swallow Soul not adding enough utility.

Healing is nice, but in group content where you’re getting the slightest bit of off-healing it’s completely useless. Both Swallow Soul and the other morph are extremely out-dated, borderline Vanilla skills.

Nowadays Concealed Weapon has power-crept into doing 4 different things while Swallow is stuck with only 2, being damage and healing, perhaps taking the Minor Expedition from Concealed and adding it to Swallow Soul could be a start, maybe something else, but I doubt increasing the damage will be a fix to the problem.

FoJul

Telos_Tim wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Also, @Telos_Tim I can make a tooltip swallow soul get to 20k, but it still doesn't translate. Show me Combat metrics comparisons if you don't mind.

What are you looking for?

Ultimately it boils down to Concealed Weapon doing too much, and Swallow Soul not adding enough utility.

Healing is nice, but in group content where you’re getting the slightest bit of off-healing it’s completely useless. Both Swallow Soul and the other morph are extremely out-dated, borderline Vanilla skills.

Nowadays Concealed Weapon has power-crept into doing 4 different things while Swallow is stuck with only 2, being damage and healing, perhaps taking the Minor Expedition from Concealed and adding it to Swallow Soul could be a start, maybe something else, but I doubt increasing the damage will be a fix to the problem.

Well, buffing the damage was only mentioned in one of the links I shared. I just want to play this playstyle again, give us something...anything at this point.

Theist_VII

FoJul wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Also, @Telos_Tim I can make a tooltip swallow soul get to 20k, but it still doesn't translate. Show me Combat metrics comparisons if you don't mind.

What are you looking for?

Ultimately it boils down to Concealed Weapon doing too much, and Swallow Soul not adding enough utility.

Healing is nice, but in group content where you’re getting the slightest bit of off-healing it’s completely useless. Both Swallow Soul and the other morph are extremely out-dated, borderline Vanilla skills.

Nowadays Concealed Weapon has power-crept into doing 4 different things while Swallow is stuck with only 2, being damage and healing, perhaps taking the Minor Expedition from Concealed and adding it to Swallow Soul could be a start, maybe something else, but I doubt increasing the damage will be a fix to the problem.

Well, buffing the damage was only mentioned in one of the links I shared. I just want to play this playstyle again, give us something...anything at this point.

I’m right there with you, that’s why I farmed that Archive set out and put it all together just to be extremely disappointed by the survivability.

If it turns out Soulcleaver was bugged and not appropriately interacting with the spammable and then gets fixed, that might be enough to make the build worth running, because as it stands, unless you’re sitting on a keep wall just blasting people with it, you won’t survive with the spec.

You would need to run a defensive set, and with the ranged scaling of the ability, you can’t afford to.

FoJul

Telos_Tim wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Also, @Telos_Tim I can make a tooltip swallow soul get to 20k, but it still doesn't translate. Show me Combat metrics comparisons if you don't mind.

What are you looking for?

Ultimately it boils down to Concealed Weapon doing too much, and Swallow Soul not adding enough utility.

Healing is nice, but in group content where you’re getting the slightest bit of off-healing it’s completely useless. Both Swallow Soul and the other morph are extremely out-dated, borderline Vanilla skills.

Nowadays Concealed Weapon has power-crept into doing 4 different things while Swallow is stuck with only 2, being damage and healing, perhaps taking the Minor Expedition from Concealed and adding it to Swallow Soul could be a start, maybe something else, but I doubt increasing the damage will be a fix to the problem.

Well, buffing the damage was only mentioned in one of the links I shared. I just want to play this playstyle again, give us something...anything at this point.

I’m right there with you, that’s why I farmed that Archive set out and put it all together just to be extremely disappointed by the survivability.

If it turns out Soulcleaver was bugged and not appropriately interacting with the spammable and then gets fixed, that might be enough to make the build worth running, because as it stands, unless you’re sitting on a keep wall just blasting people with it, you won’t survive with the spec.

You would need to run a defensive set, and with the ranged scaling of the ability, you can’t afford to.

Imma keep it 100 with you. I can put the Torc of the last Ayleid king on all my builds, and they slightly get nerfed, with a upside of extra dmg mitagation. On my Nightblade, i prefer the Ayleid king over the soulcleaver build.

Im not even kidding, ill post my current build here.

This is the Ayleid king build i been running...
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=624711

and this is the soulcleaver build i been on.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=624634

Even tho the stats and tooltips say one thing, the Ayleid King is actually better. IMO

Theist_VII

I just went and checked your builds out, some interesting choices in there!

On the first one, you had Veil of Blades? How are you using that? Are you throwing it down defensively to catch people off-guard because they’ve never seen it before?

I know it can do pretty decent damage, but the radius makes it extremely unreliable.

Other than that, my Soulcleaver build looked almost identical to yours, except instead of Sea Serpent’s Coil I had Death Dealer’s Fete and a 3 heavy, 2 medium, 2 light setup.

FoJul

Telos_Tim wrote: »

I just went and checked your builds out, some interesting choices in there!

On the first one, you had Veil of Blades? How are you using that? Are you throwing it down defensively to catch people off-guard because they’ve never seen it before?

I know it can do pretty decent damage, but the radius makes it extremely unreliable.

Other than that, my Soulcleaver build looked almost identical to yours, except instead of Sea Serpent’s Coil I had Death Dealer’s Fete and a 3 heavy, 2 medium, 2 light setup.

Yes Veil of blades, its really for group support, as the burst heal is significantly more than soul tether/siphon. And the minor affects has it's perks too for Group utility. Magblade doesn't offer much. So squeeze in something there, everywhere I can.

Zodiarkslayer

I think MagBlade is competitive in NoCPNoProc. This is how I run and its a blast.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=627122

Recoveries are a bit low, yes. But in NoProc the fights aren't nearly as long as normally in Greywatch and you definitely kill much faster, because all the mitigation of the tank Meta is just not there.

Galeriano2

Slot snipe problem solved. Ranged nightblade is actually one of the most popular setups in PvP atm.

FoJul

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Slot snipe problem solved. Ranged nightblade is actually one of the most popular setups in PvP atm.

Nah gankblade and ranged brawler are 2 different things. Im not ganking.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

I think MagBlade is competitive in NoCPNoProc. This is how I run and its a blast.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=627122

Recoveries are a bit low, yes. But in NoProc the fights aren't nearly as long as normally in Greywatch and you definitely kill much faster, because all the mitigation of the tank Meta is just not there.

like 20 people play NoProc pvp, and I still wouldn't say Rangeblade is competitive in there. You guys are playing a different game then me.

NyassaV

Telos_Tim wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Probably should have brought this topic back up at the beginning of this PTS cycle, it might be too late for any meaningful changes this update.

Ranged Nightblade is in a weird spot, while I agree it needs to be buffed, I don’t know how buffing Swallow Soul would interact with Soulcleaver.

Currently, my Magicka Nightblade is tool-tipping higher than Uppercut with that set equipped and is devastating against melee users… that being said, I feel as though the set is bugged. Swallow Soul should be double dipping into it for the healing but that doesn’t seem to be the case as any amount of pressure from ranged out-right flattens the build because the healing-over-time can’t keep up.

The healing is based on damage done, it deliberately does not double dip if I remember correctly. If it did, it would be even worse than you can imagine because it would be effected by battlespirit twice. Damage done AND healing received reduction.

They talked about this in a patch a long time ago, but I can't remember which one.

No, the set gives 18% damage done, and 18% increased healing, so in theory, you should be getting ~36 efficiency from the skill.

Obviously you get back a smaller percentage on the heal compared to the damage, but that value should be increased by 36% not 18% like what I feel is currently happening.

A ranged Siphon-Blade should have heal-over-times that match a Templar outside of their rune with Bubble, but it’s not even remotely close.

The 18% more dmg from soul cleaver is what makes Swallow soul's healing more. The 18% healing increase does not affect it. Further more it doesn't effect healthy offering either. The only time the 18% more healing bonus comes into play is with Siphoning Attacks

NyassaV

Swallow soul in currently one of the most expensive spammables in the game (Along with Force pulse, Screaming Cliffracer, and Ricochet Skull) with a cost of 2700. It does the same damage as Elemental weapon, but Elemental weapon both costs less and does more damage with the status effect proc, especially since the previous patch when they increased the potency and damage of status effects. Swallow Soul's cost was dramatically increased when Elemental Weapon was introduced to the game. In the past Magblade could run with lower sustain and more dmg stats because it was fairly cheap (around 1,700 mag with 5 light armor) and thats one of the things that made it competitive in PvP environments despite other shortcomings.

Ranged Nightblade has always struggled against people who use dodge roll a lot (And even cloak too, assuming you don't slot Inner Light or Evil Hunter). With Hybridization the amount of dodge rolls in any given fight has increased dramatically and so Ranged Magblade has suffered because literally all it's damage can be dodged. This is in stark contrast to Ranged magsorc (Which ranged magblade is often compared too) which has two commonly used abilities which are undodgeable; Streak and Curse.

Streak and Curse are AOE and thus undodgeable, even if a sorc decides to use Ball of Lightning they'll still be using curse so they'll still have some undodgeable damage.

The one nice thing about Swallow soul is that it's healing doesn't double dip with Battle Spirit unlike the healing you get from Merciless Resolve. However most heal over time effects are every 1 seconds and Swallow is every two seconds, while not the biggest deal this will have a effect in the long run but the dealing done is high enough to compensate. Unlike most other heal over time effects Swallow soul cannot actually crit. I believe it can proc item sets with the condition that a crit heal happen, but the heal itself will always be the same for every tick.

Ranged Magic Nightblade has a Plethora of issues. And it's not just because of Swallow Soul. As I discussed a big issue is their lack of undodgeable damage but a skilled player can work around that sometimes. One issue for magblade revolves around their damage over time ability; Crippling Grasp/Debilitate.

Between Cripple and Debilitate the later of the two is the better option both for damage over time and sustain. The projectile is so slow that the upfront damage from cripple can be used to time burst with other abilties, but cripple immobilizes the target which makes people instinctively dodge and so it's basically useless since anything else you cast will just be dodged. If you use Debilitate, the slow projectile makes it so that the ability is incredibly easy to dodge unless you cast it point blank and even then it's a bit slow. Entropy is an instant cast for comparison, so much harder to dodge.

I was hoping Soul cleaver would help ranged magblade but most of the time I do not feel the set is worth it numerically, though it is fun to mess around with on occasion, it is absolutely not competitive at all. Given Soul Cleaver has a downside too it, the 18% modifier isn't enough, it needs to be higher but I wouldn't put it higher than 25%. Given Soul Cleaver doesn't even effect Healthy Offering's healing, it won't be too busted.

With all this said I should say that Nightblade doesn't need more damage but rather it needs better mechanics and slight tweaks to it's skills to allow it to do damage more consistently and in an interesting way.

If you want my take on how to play ranged Magblade despite how bad it is (I would say the worst playstyle but Necro exists), I'll put a link for my most recent build bellow. On my channel you can find a mixture of ranged and melee Nightblade gameplay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yMm0MikfJE&t=97s&ab_channel=NyassaV

Theist_VII

NyassaV wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Probably should have brought this topic back up at the beginning of this PTS cycle, it might be too late for any meaningful changes this update.

Ranged Nightblade is in a weird spot, while I agree it needs to be buffed, I don’t know how buffing Swallow Soul would interact with Soulcleaver.

Currently, my Magicka Nightblade is tool-tipping higher than Uppercut with that set equipped and is devastating against melee users… that being said, I feel as though the set is bugged. Swallow Soul should be double dipping into it for the healing but that doesn’t seem to be the case as any amount of pressure from ranged out-right flattens the build because the healing-over-time can’t keep up.

The healing is based on damage done, it deliberately does not double dip if I remember correctly. If it did, it would be even worse than you can imagine because it would be effected by battlespirit twice. Damage done AND healing received reduction.

They talked about this in a patch a long time ago, but I can't remember which one.

No, the set gives 18% damage done, and 18% increased healing, so in theory, you should be getting ~36 efficiency from the skill.

Obviously you get back a smaller percentage on the heal compared to the damage, but that value should be increased by 36% not 18% like what I feel is currently happening.

A ranged Siphon-Blade should have heal-over-times that match a Templar outside of their rune with Bubble, but it’s not even remotely close.

The 18% more dmg from soul cleaver is what makes Swallow soul's healing more. The 18% healing increase does not affect it. Further more it doesn't effect healthy offering either. The only time the 18% more healing bonus comes into play is with Siphoning Attacks

Then it has to be bugged, because there is no logical reasoning why both of those shouldn’t be working.

Swallow Soul does damage, and then heals, if the game was registering it properly, it would increase the damage, making the 35% heal off the larger number, then that new number should be affected by the healing increase.

The fact that it doesn’t, is the sole reason why MagBlade can’t survive in that set, regardless of the bugged lack of interaction with Healthy Offering.

They really need to fix these Infinite Archive sets… almost all of them are not working as intended.

FoJul

Telos_Tim wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Probably should have brought this topic back up at the beginning of this PTS cycle, it might be too late for any meaningful changes this update.

Ranged Nightblade is in a weird spot, while I agree it needs to be buffed, I don’t know how buffing Swallow Soul would interact with Soulcleaver.

Currently, my Magicka Nightblade is tool-tipping higher than Uppercut with that set equipped and is devastating against melee users… that being said, I feel as though the set is bugged. Swallow Soul should be double dipping into it for the healing but that doesn’t seem to be the case as any amount of pressure from ranged out-right flattens the build because the healing-over-time can’t keep up.

The healing is based on damage done, it deliberately does not double dip if I remember correctly. If it did, it would be even worse than you can imagine because it would be effected by battlespirit twice. Damage done AND healing received reduction.

They talked about this in a patch a long time ago, but I can't remember which one.

No, the set gives 18% damage done, and 18% increased healing, so in theory, you should be getting ~36 efficiency from the skill.

Obviously you get back a smaller percentage on the heal compared to the damage, but that value should be increased by 36% not 18% like what I feel is currently happening.

A ranged Siphon-Blade should have heal-over-times that match a Templar outside of their rune with Bubble, but it’s not even remotely close.

The 18% more dmg from soul cleaver is what makes Swallow soul's healing more. The 18% healing increase does not affect it. Further more it doesn't effect healthy offering either. The only time the 18% more healing bonus comes into play is with Siphoning Attacks

Then it has to be bugged, because there is no logical reasoning why both of those shouldn’t be working.

Swallow Soul does damage, and then heals, if the game was registering it properly, it would increase the damage, making the 35% heal off the larger number, then that new number should be affected by the healing increase.

The fact that it doesn’t, is the sole reason why MagBlade can’t survive in that set, regardless of the bugged lack of interaction with Healthy Offering.

They really need to fix these Infinite Archive sets… almost all of them are not working as intended.

I actually, made a forum about that, and people said it's working as intended. Even though I have done extensive practicing with the set, and never really felt the full benefits...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/646519/class-set-bug#latest

nothing was ever done, and no dev comment either.

FoJul

NyassaV wrote: »

Swallow soul in currently one of the most expensive spammables in the game (Along with Force pulse, Screaming Cliffracer, and Ricochet Skull) with a cost of 2700. It does the same damage as Elemental weapon, but Elemental weapon both costs less and does more damage with the status effect proc, especially since the previous patch when they increased the potency and damage of status effects. Swallow Soul's cost was dramatically increased when Elemental Weapon was introduced to the game. In the past Magblade could run with lower sustain and more dmg stats because it was fairly cheap (around 1,700 mag with 5 light armor) and thats one of the things that made it competitive in PvP environments despite other shortcomings.

Ranged Nightblade has always struggled against people who use dodge roll a lot (And even cloak too, assuming you don't slot Inner Light or Evil Hunter). With Hybridization the amount of dodge rolls in any given fight has increased dramatically and so Ranged Magblade has suffered because literally all it's damage can be dodged. This is in stark contrast to Ranged magsorc (Which ranged magblade is often compared too) which has two commonly used abilities which are undodgeable; Streak and Curse.

Streak and Curse are AOE and thus undodgeable, even if a sorc decides to use Ball of Lightning they'll still be using curse so they'll still have some undodgeable damage.

The one nice thing about Swallow soul is that it's healing doesn't double dip with Battle Spirit unlike the healing you get from Merciless Resolve. However most heal over time effects are every 1 seconds and Swallow is every two seconds, while not the biggest deal this will have a effect in the long run but the dealing done is high enough to compensate. Unlike most other heal over time effects Swallow soul cannot actually crit. I believe it can proc item sets with the condition that a crit heal happen, but the heal itself will always be the same for every tick.

Ranged Magic Nightblade has a Plethora of issues. And it's not just because of Swallow Soul. As I discussed a big issue is their lack of undodgeable damage but a skilled player can work around that sometimes. One issue for magblade revolves around their damage over time ability; Crippling Grasp/Debilitate.

Between Cripple and Debilitate the later of the two is the better option both for damage over time and sustain. The projectile is so slow that the upfront damage from cripple can be used to time burst with other abilties, but cripple immobilizes the target which makes people instinctively dodge and so it's basically useless since anything else you cast will just be dodged. If you use Debilitate, the slow projectile makes it so that the ability is incredibly easy to dodge unless you cast it point blank and even then it's a bit slow. Entropy is an instant cast for comparison, so much harder to dodge.

I was hoping Soul cleaver would help ranged magblade but most of the time I do not feel the set is worth it numerically, though it is fun to mess around with on occasion, it is absolutely not competitive at all. Given Soul Cleaver has a downside too it, the 18% modifier isn't enough, it needs to be higher but I wouldn't put it higher than 25%. Given Soul Cleaver doesn't even effect Healthy Offering's healing, it won't be too busted.

With all this said I should say that Nightblade doesn't need more damage but rather it needs better mechanics and slight tweaks to it's skills to allow it to do damage more consistently and in an interesting way.

If you want my take on how to play ranged Magblade despite how bad it is (I would say the worst playstyle but Necro exists), I'll put a link for my most recent build bellow. On my channel you can find a mixture of ranged and melee Nightblade gameplay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yMm0MikfJE&t=97s&ab_channel=NyassaV

Also, try out the ayleid king for a rangeblade...it will blow your mind.

NyassaV

FoJul wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Swallow soul in currently one of the most expensive spammables in the game (Along with Force pulse, Screaming Cliffracer, and Ricochet Skull) with a cost of 2700. It does the same damage as Elemental weapon, but Elemental weapon both costs less and does more damage with the status effect proc, especially since the previous patch when they increased the potency and damage of status effects. Swallow Soul's cost was dramatically increased when Elemental Weapon was introduced to the game. In the past Magblade could run with lower sustain and more dmg stats because it was fairly cheap (around 1,700 mag with 5 light armor) and thats one of the things that made it competitive in PvP environments despite other shortcomings.

Ranged Nightblade has always struggled against people who use dodge roll a lot (And even cloak too, assuming you don't slot Inner Light or Evil Hunter). With Hybridization the amount of dodge rolls in any given fight has increased dramatically and so Ranged Magblade has suffered because literally all it's damage can be dodged. This is in stark contrast to Ranged magsorc (Which ranged magblade is often compared too) which has two commonly used abilities which are undodgeable; Streak and Curse.

Streak and Curse are AOE and thus undodgeable, even if a sorc decides to use Ball of Lightning they'll still be using curse so they'll still have some undodgeable damage.

The one nice thing about Swallow soul is that it's healing doesn't double dip with Battle Spirit unlike the healing you get from Merciless Resolve. However most heal over time effects are every 1 seconds and Swallow is every two seconds, while not the biggest deal this will have a effect in the long run but the dealing done is high enough to compensate. Unlike most other heal over time effects Swallow soul cannot actually crit. I believe it can proc item sets with the condition that a crit heal happen, but the heal itself will always be the same for every tick.

Ranged Magic Nightblade has a Plethora of issues. And it's not just because of Swallow Soul. As I discussed a big issue is their lack of undodgeable damage but a skilled player can work around that sometimes. One issue for magblade revolves around their damage over time ability; Crippling Grasp/Debilitate.

Between Cripple and Debilitate the later of the two is the better option both for damage over time and sustain. The projectile is so slow that the upfront damage from cripple can be used to time burst with other abilties, but cripple immobilizes the target which makes people instinctively dodge and so it's basically useless since anything else you cast will just be dodged. If you use Debilitate, the slow projectile makes it so that the ability is incredibly easy to dodge unless you cast it point blank and even then it's a bit slow. Entropy is an instant cast for comparison, so much harder to dodge.

I was hoping Soul cleaver would help ranged magblade but most of the time I do not feel the set is worth it numerically, though it is fun to mess around with on occasion, it is absolutely not competitive at all. Given Soul Cleaver has a downside too it, the 18% modifier isn't enough, it needs to be higher but I wouldn't put it higher than 25%. Given Soul Cleaver doesn't even effect Healthy Offering's healing, it won't be too busted.

With all this said I should say that Nightblade doesn't need more damage but rather it needs better mechanics and slight tweaks to it's skills to allow it to do damage more consistently and in an interesting way.

If you want my take on how to play ranged Magblade despite how bad it is (I would say the worst playstyle but Necro exists), I'll put a link for my most recent build bellow. On my channel you can find a mixture of ranged and melee Nightblade gameplay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yMm0MikfJE&t=97s&ab_channel=NyassaV

Also, try out the ayleid king for a rangeblade...it will blow your mind.

Frankly I believe you... But giving up Balorg is a hard sell.

Turtle_Bot

FoJul wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Probably should have brought this topic back up at the beginning of this PTS cycle, it might be too late for any meaningful changes this update.

Ranged Nightblade is in a weird spot, while I agree it needs to be buffed, I don’t know how buffing Swallow Soul would interact with Soulcleaver.

Currently, my Magicka Nightblade is tool-tipping higher than Uppercut with that set equipped and is devastating against melee users… that being said, I feel as though the set is bugged. Swallow Soul should be double dipping into it for the healing but that doesn’t seem to be the case as any amount of pressure from ranged out-right flattens the build because the healing-over-time can’t keep up.

The healing is based on damage done, it deliberately does not double dip if I remember correctly. If it did, it would be even worse than you can imagine because it would be effected by battlespirit twice. Damage done AND healing received reduction.

They talked about this in a patch a long time ago, but I can't remember which one.

No, the set gives 18% damage done, and 18% increased healing, so in theory, you should be getting ~36 efficiency from the skill.

Obviously you get back a smaller percentage on the heal compared to the damage, but that value should be increased by 36% not 18% like what I feel is currently happening.

A ranged Siphon-Blade should have heal-over-times that match a Templar outside of their rune with Bubble, but it’s not even remotely close.

The 18% more dmg from soul cleaver is what makes Swallow soul's healing more. The 18% healing increase does not affect it. Further more it doesn't effect healthy offering either. The only time the 18% more healing bonus comes into play is with Siphoning Attacks

Then it has to be bugged, because there is no logical reasoning why both of those shouldn’t be working.

Swallow Soul does damage, and then heals, if the game was registering it properly, it would increase the damage, making the 35% heal off the larger number, then that new number should be affected by the healing increase.

The fact that it doesn’t, is the sole reason why MagBlade can’t survive in that set, regardless of the bugged lack of interaction with Healthy Offering.

They really need to fix these Infinite Archive sets… almost all of them are not working as intended.

I actually, made a forum about that, and people said it's working as intended. Even though I have done extensive practicing with the set, and never really felt the full benefits...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/646519/class-set-bug#latest

nothing was ever done, and no dev comment either.

Seems to be a trend with the class sets, even on their release patch, the vast majority of the feedback was completely ignored (especially for the sorc set that to this day is still not even worth farming for, due to how bad it is, even for role play, to the point that even base game sets such as overwhelming surge/Illambris, are just objectively better than it)...

• Necro - Unusable (bugged)
• DK - Barely usable, but not really (bugged)
• Sorc - why does this even exist (so badly designed from the start that it was not usable (even for roleplay) from the get-go)
• Plar - mediocre (downside is still too harsh, even after the adjustments)
• Arcanist - mediocre (doesn't really add anything unique or fun)
• Warden - mediocre (see Arcanist)
• NB - mediocre (bugged)

It also seems like they have just put aside the concept of class sets entirely for the other skill lines too. We've had zero communication regarding any fixes for the existing sets (despite months of feedback and data being provided about bugs/design flaws/etc.) or announcements for sets for the other lines.

@ZOS_Kevin some acknowledgement on this issue would be appreciated. Half the sets are still bugged, and the other half are so badly designed that they aren't even worth farming, let alone using, even for roleplay, and we have had no word on if these sets (which were touted as a big feature of Infinite Archive) are even on the teams radar for fixes/updates or even if we are getting any sets for the other class skill lines.

FoJul

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Probably should have brought this topic back up at the beginning of this PTS cycle, it might be too late for any meaningful changes this update.

Ranged Nightblade is in a weird spot, while I agree it needs to be buffed, I don’t know how buffing Swallow Soul would interact with Soulcleaver.

Currently, my Magicka Nightblade is tool-tipping higher than Uppercut with that set equipped and is devastating against melee users… that being said, I feel as though the set is bugged. Swallow Soul should be double dipping into it for the healing but that doesn’t seem to be the case as any amount of pressure from ranged out-right flattens the build because the healing-over-time can’t keep up.

The healing is based on damage done, it deliberately does not double dip if I remember correctly. If it did, it would be even worse than you can imagine because it would be effected by battlespirit twice. Damage done AND healing received reduction.

They talked about this in a patch a long time ago, but I can't remember which one.

No, the set gives 18% damage done, and 18% increased healing, so in theory, you should be getting ~36 efficiency from the skill.

Obviously you get back a smaller percentage on the heal compared to the damage, but that value should be increased by 36% not 18% like what I feel is currently happening.

A ranged Siphon-Blade should have heal-over-times that match a Templar outside of their rune with Bubble, but it’s not even remotely close.

The 18% more dmg from soul cleaver is what makes Swallow soul's healing more. The 18% healing increase does not affect it. Further more it doesn't effect healthy offering either. The only time the 18% more healing bonus comes into play is with Siphoning Attacks

Then it has to be bugged, because there is no logical reasoning why both of those shouldn’t be working.

Swallow Soul does damage, and then heals, if the game was registering it properly, it would increase the damage, making the 35% heal off the larger number, then that new number should be affected by the healing increase.

The fact that it doesn’t, is the sole reason why MagBlade can’t survive in that set, regardless of the bugged lack of interaction with Healthy Offering.

They really need to fix these Infinite Archive sets… almost all of them are not working as intended.

I actually, made a forum about that, and people said it's working as intended. Even though I have done extensive practicing with the set, and never really felt the full benefits...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/646519/class-set-bug#latest

nothing was ever done, and no dev comment either.

Seems to be a trend with the class sets, even on their release patch, the vast majority of the feedback was completely ignored (especially for the sorc set that to this day is still not even worth farming for, due to how bad it is, even for role play, to the point that even base game sets such as overwhelming surge/Illambris, are just objectively better than it)...

• Necro - Unusable (bugged)
• DK - Barely usable, but not really (bugged)
• Sorc - why does this even exist (so badly designed from the start that it was not usable (even for roleplay) from the get-go)
• Plar - mediocre (downside is still too harsh, even after the adjustments)
• Arcanist - mediocre (doesn't really add anything unique or fun)
• Warden - mediocre (see Arcanist)
• NB - mediocre (bugged)

It also seems like they have just put aside the concept of class sets entirely for the other skill lines too. We've had zero communication regarding any fixes for the existing sets (despite months of feedback and data being provided about bugs/design flaws/etc.) or announcements for sets for the other lines.

@ZOS_Kevin some acknowledgement on this issue would be appreciated. Half the sets are still bugged, and the other half are so badly designed that they aren't even worth farming, let alone using, even for roleplay, and we have had no word on if these sets (which were touted as a big feature of Infinite Archive) are even on the teams radar for fixes/updates or even if we are getting any sets for the other class skill lines.

But, this post wasn't about class sets. I shouldn't need a class set to make Ranged Mageblade playable. I should be able to use regular sets or even proc sets, and still be able to perform well with class skills, just like any other class.

ArctosCethlenn

The nightblade set isn't bugged that I can tell, it's multiplicative and not additive though. Out of combat my swallow soul tooltip says it heals for 39% of the damage inflicted every 2s for 10s, when I'm in combat that changes to 46%, and 0.39 * 1.18 = 0.4602, so that maths out correctly. I'm also seeing healthy offering's tooltip and healing done go up by 18% when in combat, so it's working as intended for that too.

FoJul

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

The nightblade set isn't bugged that I can tell, it's multiplicative and not additive though. Out of combat my swallow soul tooltip says it heals for 39% of the damage inflicted every 2s for 10s, when I'm in combat that changes to 46%, and 0.39 * 1.18 = 0.4602, so that maths out correctly. I'm also seeing healthy offering's tooltip and healing done go up by 18% when in combat, so it's working as intended for that too.

But it's not. IDK why we keep talking about the class set, thats not what this forum is about. But i'll tell you personally my issues with the set is.

1. Swallow soul doesnt crit heal, nor is it affected by the healing scaling of the set. Its in the siphoning tree is it not? then howcome my swallow soul heal goes down when using Soulcleaver.
2. Ok addtionally, Like someone said earlier in the post. Technically the Swallow soul heal specifically should be getting double dipping healing. The healing scales off of the damage. So 18% more damage...means 18% more healing. ON TOP of the 18% healing that the set provides.
3. Just a target dummy test isnt going to show you that. Trust me, fight a mob that does damage to you and you will see swallow soul is unaffected...Which renders the set 50% useless as the set is mostly there to buff your spammable heal and spammable damage ability.
4. Hypothetically. Swallow soul with the set should be carrying your heals. But its no where even close to that.

ArctosCethlenn

FoJul wrote: »

But it's not. IDK why we keep talking about the class set, thats not what this forum is about. But i'll tell you personally my issues with the set is.

1. Swallow soul doesnt crit heal, nor is it affected by the healing scaling of the set. Its in the siphoning tree is it not? then howcome my swallow soul heal goes down when using Soulcleaver.
2. Ok addtionally, Like someone said earlier in the post. Technically the Swallow soul heal specifically should be getting double dipping healing. The healing scales off of the damage. So 18% more damage...means 18% more healing. ON TOP of the 18% healing that the set provides.
3. Just a target dummy test isnt going to show you that. Trust me, fight a mob that does damage to you and you will see swallow soul is unaffected...Which renders the set 50% useless as the set is mostly there to buff your spammable heal and spammable damage ability.
4. Hypothetically. Swallow soul with the set should be carrying your heals. But its no where even close to that.

1. Swallow soul's heal can't crit because if the base attack crits, the healing per tick is based off that higher damage. if the hot could crit on top of that it'd be double dipping on your crit chance and reach truly obscene numbers. Down compared to what? Because I can absolutely tell you that when I drop from 5p soulcleaver to 4p and make no other changes to my stats, I lose 18% damage off the skill, and the 18% healing based off that damage, for about a 36% reduction in healing from swallow soul.
2. So see 1, IT IS DOUBLE DIPPING EXACTLY LIKE THAT. The set makes swallow soul hit harder and then further boosts the heal scaling based off that hit.

Yeah ranged magblade, siphoner magblade could use some love and attention but the issues being raised about the set not working as intended are just complete fiction.

xylena_lazarow

Put a damage shield on Healthy Offering

Theist_VII

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

FoJul wrote: »

But it's not. IDK why we keep talking about the class set, thats not what this forum is about. But i'll tell you personally my issues with the set is.

1. Swallow soul doesnt crit heal, nor is it affected by the healing scaling of the set. Its in the siphoning tree is it not? then howcome my swallow soul heal goes down when using Soulcleaver.
2. Ok addtionally, Like someone said earlier in the post. Technically the Swallow soul heal specifically should be getting double dipping healing. The healing scales off of the damage. So 18% more damage...means 18% more healing. ON TOP of the 18% healing that the set provides.
3. Just a target dummy test isnt going to show you that. Trust me, fight a mob that does damage to you and you will see swallow soul is unaffected...Which renders the set 50% useless as the set is mostly there to buff your spammable heal and spammable damage ability.
4. Hypothetically. Swallow soul with the set should be carrying your heals. But its no where even close to that.

1. Swallow soul's heal can't crit because if the base attack crits, the healing per tick is based off that higher damage. if the hot could crit on top of that it'd be double dipping on your crit chance and reach truly obscene numbers. Down compared to what? Because I can absolutely tell you that when I drop from 5p soulcleaver to 4p and make no other changes to my stats, I lose 18% damage off the skill, and the 18% healing based off that damage, for about a 36% reduction in healing from swallow soul.
2. So see 1, IT IS DOUBLE DIPPING EXACTLY LIKE THAT. The set makes swallow soul hit harder and then further boosts the heal scaling based off that hit.

Yeah ranged magblade, siphoner magblade could use some love and attention but the issues being raised about the set not working as intended are just complete fiction.

Gotta agree with @FoJul on this one.

To me it honestly sounds like you’ve never used the set, because your “experience” with it is contrary to the experiences we’ve had, players that have quite literally built into it, and tried it.

The set very clearly does not work with Siphoning Strikes, neither does it give the healing of Swallow Soul an additional 18%.

If your claim is that they are multiplying each other, than provide proof of it so we can rest the case in regards to the set’s functionality, instead of throwing out some claim that our experience is “complete fiction.”

Theist_VII

Also want to add, that although we shouldn’t need a class set to make a SiphonBlade work, the current design of the set is inseparable from the playstyle and is therefore necessary to the conversation when any ideas of buffing it are brought to the table.

ArctosCethlenn

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Gotta agree with @FoJul on this one.

To me it honestly sounds like you’ve never used the set, because your “experience” with it is contrary to the experiences we’ve had, players that have quite literally built into it, and tried it.

The set very clearly does not work with Siphoning Strikes, neither does it give the healing of Swallow Soul an additional 18%.

If your claim is that they are multiplying each other, than provide proof of it so we can rest the case in regards to the set’s functionality, instead of throwing out some claim that our experience is “complete fiction.”

Been using it for months on my pvp setup, it is absolutely working for swallow soul and offering, only thing it isn't working for is the new siphoning attacks.

Out of combat tooltips for SS and offering, only buff is minor mending:



In combat tooltips, for the same, with soulcleaver 5p active:



43% * 1.18 = 50.7%. The damage goes up, and the healing ratio goes up, netting a total increase to the healing of about 36%.
15344 * 1.18 = 18106 so oh look that lines up too and yes, my healing taken numbers match.

ArctosCethlenn

Siphoning attacks doesn't benefit yeah, but that's the only thing in the line which doesn't; zos probably just forgot to add it when they reworked SA an update ago, since before that SA didn't have a big healing component. Clearly they should make it benefit from soulcleaver, and make SC boost the resources gained from siphoning attacks by 18% as well as the healing.