Oblivion Damage on Scribing Skills Cannot go Live

Zenderson

I honestly don't hate the idea of an oblivion damage DoT. I really like these patch notes changes, it feels like ZOS really took player feedback into account. Balancing and tuning will likely still need to happen, but I think overall these patch notes were solid. I'm really happy with the unique take on oblivion damage and I'm curious to see how it'll end up working in pvp.

sarahthes

Zenderson wrote: »

I honestly don't hate the idea of an oblivion damage DoT. I really like these patch notes changes, it feels like ZOS really took player feedback into account. Balancing and tuning will likely still need to happen, but I think overall these patch notes were solid. I'm really happy with the unique take on oblivion damage and I'm curious to see how it'll end up working in pvp.

If it's not bursty or sustained pressure I doubt it'll be used at all.

ToRelax

sarahthes wrote: »

Zenderson wrote: »

I honestly don't hate the idea of an oblivion damage DoT. I really like these patch notes changes, it feels like ZOS really took player feedback into account. Balancing and tuning will likely still need to happen, but I think overall these patch notes were solid. I'm really happy with the unique take on oblivion damage and I'm curious to see how it'll end up working in pvp.

If it's not bursty or sustained pressure I doubt it'll be used at all.

It is sustained pressure, half the strength of Sload's Semblance per skill. Still very much worth consideration.

Necrotech_Master

sarahthes wrote: »

Zenderson wrote: »

I honestly don't hate the idea of an oblivion damage DoT. I really like these patch notes changes, it feels like ZOS really took player feedback into account. Balancing and tuning will likely still need to happen, but I think overall these patch notes were solid. I'm really happy with the unique take on oblivion damage and I'm curious to see how it'll end up working in pvp.

If it's not bursty or sustained pressure I doubt it'll be used at all.

with the newest changes, i dont think it will make a huge difference in a 1v1

but if everyone is flinging them around, its going to be pressure unless people can purge

if it can stack from multiple users, i could see people flinging the aoe one around, since thats 2.8% every 2 sec, from 5 players thats almost 15% of your max hp every 2 sec sustained 100% uptime if its not purged

sloads while it can do more dmg per tick (3% per second for 6 seconds), its not 100% uptime due to the 10% proc chance, and limited to single target only, which your giving up a full 5 pc set for

the aoe soul one while it has a 10 sec cooldown, can at least hit multiple targets and be reapplied on cooldown

so it will still probably be better than any existing oblivion source

NyassaV

I'm worried this will be a second coming of Sload's call. For those who do not remember, when Summerset came out there was a set called Sload's Call which everyone uses. DMGing any enemy applied a dot which did oblivion damage. It was horrible. Nightblades couldn't cloak, Templars ran out of Mag having to purge it, DKs and Wardens did mostly fine. Sorcs struggled with the dmg going through sheilds.

It was hell on earth (Tamriel)

MentalxHammer

Jsmalls wrote: »

This 100% needed to happen, I commend ZoS for correcting this before it went live.

Agreed. TY ZOS for listening to our concerns and making changes

NyassaV wrote: »

I'm worried this will be a second coming of Sload's call. For those who do not remember, when Summerset came out there was a set called Sload's Call which everyone uses. DMGing any enemy applied a dot which did oblivion damage. It was horrible. Nightblades couldn't cloak, Templars ran out of Mag having to purge it, DKs and Wardens did mostly fine. Sorcs struggled with the dmg going through sheilds.

It was hell on earth (Tamriel)

From testing it doesn't seem to be too oppressive. I like that it scales with the opponents max health, so it won't be oppressive if you run a reasonable amount of health, but punishing for people building unnecessarily high HP in PvP.

NyassaV

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

This 100% needed to happen, I commend ZoS for correcting this before it went live.

Agreed. TY ZOS for listening to our concerns and making changes

NyassaV wrote: »

I'm worried this will be a second coming of Sload's call. For those who do not remember, when Summerset came out there was a set called Sload's Call which everyone uses. DMGing any enemy applied a dot which did oblivion damage. It was horrible. Nightblades couldn't cloak, Templars ran out of Mag having to purge it, DKs and Wardens did mostly fine. Sorcs struggled with the dmg going through sheilds.

It was hell on earth (Tamriel)

From testing it doesn't seem to be too oppressive. I like that it scales with the opponents max health, so it won't be oppressive if you run a reasonable amount of health, but punishing for people building unnecessarily high HP in PvP.

Can you purge it or does it pull Nightblades out of cloak when it does dmg?

jaws343

NyassaV wrote: »

I'm worried this will be a second coming of Sload's call. For those who do not remember, when Summerset came out there was a set called Sload's Call which everyone uses. DMGing any enemy applied a dot which did oblivion damage. It was horrible. Nightblades couldn't cloak, Templars ran out of Mag having to purge it, DKs and Wardens did mostly fine. Sorcs struggled with the dmg going through sheilds.

It was hell on earth (Tamriel)

I feel like running this skill, sload's, and knight slayer could be interesting.

Sloads: 3% health oblivion damage every second for 6 seconds
Knight Slayer: 8% health oblivion burst off a fully charged heavy, 2.2 seconds
Wield Soul: 1.5% oblivion every second for 5 seconds

So, effectively with a sload's proc and this skill, it will be 4.5% oblivion damage every second.

And every 2ish seconds, it will be 12.5% damage with knight slayer. You can run lightning heavy attacks.

With an overall cap 12,500 damage, but a more realistic hit of 5,000 (40K health) damage on the burst every 2 seconds, and a 1,800 damage dot with sloads and the skill. It is a decent amount of pressure that you can supplement with a monster set of some kind.

Necrotech_Master

NyassaV wrote: »

I'm worried this will be a second coming of Sload's call. For those who do not remember, when Summerset came out there was a set called Sload's Call which everyone uses. DMGing any enemy applied a dot which did oblivion damage. It was horrible. Nightblades couldn't cloak, Templars ran out of Mag having to purge it, DKs and Wardens did mostly fine. Sorcs struggled with the dmg going through sheilds.

It was hell on earth (Tamriel)

it still does that technically, the original implementation was just a fixed amount of dmg vs %hp dmg

with the increasing health people are bring to pvp, sloads would actually hit for more dmg per tick now

the original dmg of sloads was around 675 oblivion per tick, 3% of 35,000 hp is 1050 oblivion dmg per tick

i also think the set was called "sload's semblance" one of the craftable ones in summerset

with the changes both of the current oblivion dots are about half as strong as the sloads dot

Seraphayel

What this game definitely doesn’t need is more fire and forget DoTs. We have too many of them and they’re all boring. What this game really needed was the execute script because several classes still lack those basic mechanics and yet that’s the thing they removed. The only thing that was needed was removed and replaced with another useless DoT that won’t do anything for PvP. Don’t fool yourselves and think this will put any pressure on the enemy, it won’t. Too many HoTs around.

All in all this decision is mind-boggling and outright terrible.

Aiden_Ayzaria

A nerf was definitely needed, but I don't think turning these effects into DoTs was the right call.
I would have changed it this way:
-Increasing the cooldown to 10 sec. With such a CD, you're now more pushed toward "I keep my skill and fire it to execute my target", removing the constant pressure of the proc while mindlessly spamming the skill and instead turning the skill into an execute with its own identity. You can now bypass mitigation, shields and blocking compared to a classic execute but it's gated behind a long cooldown. It would realistically only kill by itself at very low HP tbh, a great way to close those fights where someone is stalling at 1 HP.
-Add a global CD to the proc so you can only suffer an instance of this effect from any source every 10 sec. Mandatory imo as it prevents zergs and ball groups abusing it.

I find such a design would be way more engaging as you have now to time the skill correctly if you choose that signature script and want to use the proc at its best efficiency. The old version was overtuned and the new one feels not engaging at all.

SkaraMinoc

Disagree that 4k oblivion damage execute needed a nerf but it's too late now.

Zabagad

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Not sure why 4.5k oblivion damage every 3 seconds needed a nerf. That's not significant at all and yes I did test it on PTR.

But okay let's keep listening to the dueling community who hyperfocuses, overanalyzes, and criticizes anything that could possibly be halfway decent so it doesn't make it to Live. We can't have good skills or damage in the game. No fun allowed.

Not sure why some ppl try to play down the (former) problem and just talk about 4,5K/3s and don't talk about the execute and the affix and focus scripts?
Not sure what be the fun in having a clear best in slot spammable skill by far?(behind a paywall btw)
Yes I did test it on PTS too.

Nah - the hole skill in sum was just to OP - even I don't like the dot solution and I was much more in favour of a reduced value and/or maybe a 5s cooldown.
And I already bought 30K full +10K empty soul gems which I don't need now

Seraphayel

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Not sure why ~3k oblivion damage every 3 seconds needed a nerf. That's not significant at all and yes I did test it on PTS.

Because of forum whiners and hypothetical problems in PvP.

Supposedly you could abuse this skill by multiple people attacking the same target and the proc goes of at the same time. Not like this is the exact same with every other skill, as soon as multiple people attack you it’s over, it doesn’t matter if there’s a proc like that or that. Not like you can survive multiple people impaling or beaming you to death… yet this warranted a change in their eyes.

I can get behind that super tanky characters could make full use of the skill themselves (which should have been adjusted), but many arguments here were ill-fated. Now they ruined a skill that was mostly fine and rendered it pretty much useless.

ToRelax

If a guaranteed oblivion damage DoT with execute scaling as secondary skill effect is useless to you, that's a you problem.

Dracane

I was ready for this, and all arrangements had been made, but it's for the better this way. Now, a bigger focus can lie on class scripts, the 1000 ressource restore, or dots. 3 points of contemplation are better than 1 clear winner.

Seraphayel

ToRelax wrote: »

If a guaranteed oblivion damage DoT with execute scaling as secondary skill effect is useless to you, that's a you problem.

No, it‘s a problem of the ongoing PvP meta where DoTs are subpar in basically all scenarios, Oblivion damage or execute scaling left aside. It ticks in best case scenarios for 2,8k/2s or 1,5k/1s damage which is already not much.

Another issue with this change is that it buffs classes/builds that already have execute abilities and nerfs classes that don’t. MagCro and MagDen are struck with no proper execute (MagDK as well but they have enough pressure already), while already very potent execute classes like Sorc, NB and Templar get an additional DoT on top of their already overperforming execute abilities. Does nobody recognize a problem here? This change is weakening weak PvP builds even further.

For PvE Scribing is either way not of significant importance due to everything besides trifectas & co. being too easy anyway.

dcam86b14_ESO

So just rework your build ...adapt to overcome , its that simple

Necrotech_Master

Seraphayel wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

If a guaranteed oblivion damage DoT with execute scaling as secondary skill effect is useless to you, that's a you problem.

No, it‘s a problem of the ongoing PvP meta where DoTs are subpar in basically all scenarios, Oblivion damage or execute scaling left aside. It ticks in best case scenarios for 2,8k/2s or 1,5k/1s damage which is already not much.

Another issue with this change is that it buffs classes/builds that already have execute abilities and nerfs classes that don’t. MagCro and MagDen are struck with no proper execute (MagDK as well but they have enough pressure already), while already very potent execute classes like Sorc, NB and Templar get an additional DoT on top of their already overperforming execute abilities. Does nobody recognize a problem here? This change is weakening weak PvP builds even further.

For PvE Scribing is either way not of significant importance due to everything besides trifectas & co. being too easy anyway.

to go along with this, the only way you will ever see ticks of 2800 or 1500 is if the target has 100k max hp or greater

will likely never see this in pvp unless the current emp was a necromancer running goliath form lol

to give more realistic scenarios:

35k hp target: 2.8% = 980 dmg, 1.5% = 525 dmg

45k hp target: 2.8% = 1260 dmg, 1.5% = 625 dmg

so depending on how squishy the target is, they could be stronger or weaker than other dots (stronger if its a tanky person because its unresistable dmg, weaker against a less tanky person because most other dots would equal or surpass this)

Vulkunne

Seraphayel wrote: »

Yes, let’s just remove the slightest bit of fun from a skill to make it another copy pasta of other skills. I‘d rather have them remove the spammable part and let it be an Oblivion + execute or whatever. We don’t need more spammables or 08/15 skills, we need something fresh and new and this is it. That it might be destroyed because of PvPers fearing the end result is just tragic but describes perfectly why everything in this game feels samey and therefore boring.

What’s the issue anyway? Everybody is way too tanky and there‘s too much self healing anyway. 1v1 battles take forever, I have no idea why y’all so afraid of this ability when we had the most annoying meta (where nothing really dies) for years now. A shakeup is desperately needed.

Completely agree. After all, there is no use for spell crafting if we can't make interesting things out of it and walk on the other side of what once could have been and now is. Might as well not bring this feature into the game at all if we're going to start cutting out the best parts of things people like.

Seraphayel

dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »

So just rework your build ...adapt to overcome , its that simple

Sure rework my MagCro/MagDen with an execute skill that doesn’t exist and was introduced and then just removed again because of pretty much unbased, hypothetical criticism? They completely botched the Soul Magic skills (or that specific script, but outside of that both skills are rather lackluster) for PvP now, that DoT is useless. And in PvE that DoT isn‘t of any significant use either. We had one interesting and new skill combination and that was removed because of whining.

ToRelax

There are a number of very strong setups for the Soul Magic Grimoires for PvP, and now they won't be overshadowed by just one of them. Wanting a ranged execute, fine. Claiming they are now somehow weak or even useless? Complete nonsense.

Seraphayel

Lackluster is what I said and that’s what they are outside of very specific scenarios. But whatever, it‘s already too late for any changes, we’re stuck with this.

IV_Deity

Seraphayel wrote: »

DerpyBossGamer wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Yes, let’s just remove the slightest bit of fun from a skill to make it another copy pasta of other skills. I‘d rather have them remove the spammable part and let it be an Oblivion + execute or whatever. We don’t need more spammables or 08/15 skills, we need something fresh and new and this is it. That it might be destroyed because of PvPers fearing the end result is just tragic but describes perfectly why everything in this game feels samey and therefore boring.

What’s the issue anyway? Everybody is way too tanky and there‘s too much self healing anyway. 1v1 battles take forever, I have no idea why y’all so afraid of this ability when we had the most annoying meta (where nothing really dies) for years now. A shakeup is desperately needed.

It's like you didn't read a word of what I wrote, where I specifically addressed the way this harms pvp, how it can be fixed without affecting pve at all, and how I have seen from personal experience on the PTS pvping for many hours this cycle that in just two weeks of people playing with oblivion damage the build meta has shifted and worsened the "tank meta" rather than fix it.

I read exactly what you wrote, maybe you didn’t read what I wrote. I basically advocate for this skill to stay exactly as is for PvP. That Oblivion damage part is completely irrelevant for PvE, PvE is already so easy that it doesn’t need things like this at all. It’s something that’s tailormade for PvP and yet you want it changed for PvP - and I just say no to that, because it would destroy its main purpose of mainly being a PvP skill with that combination. Basically anything that shifts the meta right now is welcome.

Yeah...no way you actually read the original post...not a chance lol.

MashmalloMan

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

to go along with this, the only way you will ever see ticks of 2800 or 1500 is if the target has 100k max hp or greater

will likely never see this in pvp unless the current emp was a necromancer running goliath form lol

to give more realistic scenarios:

35k hp target: 2.8% = 980 dmg, 1.5% = 525 dmg

45k hp target: 2.8% = 1260 dmg, 1.5% = 625 dmg

Pretty sure the design idea is to melt the more common tanky builds in execute, while still being effective for ridiculously high HP builds too. You need to consider the execute scaling gives up to +100% damage, on a 50k HP target, the damage will double and cap out. On anything above 50k hp, you will start wasting a bit of power in execute, but the base damage still improves above execute.

If execute wasn't a part of the power budget, they wouldn't of added it to begin with. It's disingenuous to not include it.

50k hp target:

• Soul Burst = 2.8%/2s for 10s = 1400 dmg scaling up to 2800, the cap
• Wield Soul = 1.5%/1s for 5s = 750 dmg scaling up to 1500, the cap

100k hp target:

• Soul Burst = 2.8%/2s for 10s = 2800 dmg capped regardless of execute
• Wield Soul = 1.5%/1s for 5s = 1500 dmg capped regardless of execute

75k hp target:

• Soul Burst = 2.8%/2s for 10s = 2100 dmg scaling up to 2800, the cap
• Wield Soul = 1.5%/1s for 5s = 1125 dmg scaling up to 1500, the cap

In reality, most targets will be in the 35-45k range like you showed for sure, but Oblivion damage isn't meant for the average build, it's meant for hp stacking tanks, so it makes perfect sense you'd only get around 60-75% the value (when considering execute) for that type of player.

Seraphayel

The thing is, you’re not going to melt anyone with that DoT, not out of and not within execute range. It‘s simply too weak. As I said, this might be helpful for classes that have proper executes to put a little bit more pressure on opponents when they’re additionally getting beamed / impaled / xxx at the same time, but as a single tool these do nothing, even more so for classes that lack other tools to finish off enemies. It makes execute builds stronger and builds without executes weaker at the same time. It’s just a terrible change all around, widening the gap between some builds/classes even more.

Necrotech_Master

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

to go along with this, the only way you will ever see ticks of 2800 or 1500 is if the target has 100k max hp or greater

will likely never see this in pvp unless the current emp was a necromancer running goliath form lol

to give more realistic scenarios:

35k hp target: 2.8% = 980 dmg, 1.5% = 525 dmg

45k hp target: 2.8% = 1260 dmg, 1.5% = 625 dmg

Pretty sure the design idea is to melt the more common tanky builds in execute, while still being effective for ridiculously high HP builds too. You need to consider the execute scaling gives up to +100% damage, on a 50k HP target, the damage will double and cap out. On anything above 50k hp, you will start wasting a bit of power in execute, but the base damage still improves above execute.

If execute wasn't a part of the power budget, they wouldn't of added it to begin with. It's disingenuous to not include it.

50k hp target:

• Soul Burst = 2.8%/2s for 10s = 1400 dmg scaling up to 2800, the cap
• Wield Soul = 1.5%/1s for 5s = 750 dmg scaling up to 1500, the cap

100k hp target:

• Soul Burst = 2.8%/2s for 10s = 2800 dmg capped regardless of execute
• Wield Soul = 1.5%/1s for 5s = 1500 dmg capped regardless of execute

75k hp target:

• Soul Burst = 2.8%/2s for 10s = 2100 dmg scaling up to 2800, the cap
• Wield Soul = 1.5%/1s for 5s = 1125 dmg scaling up to 1500, the cap

In reality, most targets will be in the 35-45k range like you showed for sure, but Oblivion damage isn't meant for the average build, it's meant for hp stacking tanks, so it makes perfect sense you'd only get around 60-75% the value (when considering execute) for that type of player.

i wasnt sure if it still retained the execute portion when they shifted it to a dot lol, and i dont think i ever heard an answer when i had asked a few weeks ago in an early thread about the oblivion execute if the dmg cap applied before or after the execute scaling (i had assumed before though)

since it is a scaling execute, it will only be 50% stronger when the target is at 25% hp, and the full 100% only would apply when the target is at like 1% hp (at which point they would likely be dead)

the other thing i was bringing up was its very uncommon for players to have anything above 50k hp outside of "special circumstances" (emperorship, hammer, goliath form), as in most cases players will be at under 60k max hp

ToRelax

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

to go along with this, the only way you will ever see ticks of 2800 or 1500 is if the target has 100k max hp or greater

will likely never see this in pvp unless the current emp was a necromancer running goliath form lol

to give more realistic scenarios:

35k hp target: 2.8% = 980 dmg, 1.5% = 525 dmg

45k hp target: 2.8% = 1260 dmg, 1.5% = 625 dmg

Pretty sure the design idea is to melt the more common tanky builds in execute, while still being effective for ridiculously high HP builds too. You need to consider the execute scaling gives up to +100% damage, on a 50k HP target, the damage will double and cap out. On anything above 50k hp, you will start wasting a bit of power in execute, but the base damage still improves above execute.

If execute wasn't a part of the power budget, they wouldn't of added it to begin with. It's disingenuous to not include it.

50k hp target:

• Soul Burst = 2.8%/2s for 10s = 1400 dmg scaling up to 2800, the cap
• Wield Soul = 1.5%/1s for 5s = 750 dmg scaling up to 1500, the cap

100k hp target:

• Soul Burst = 2.8%/2s for 10s = 2800 dmg capped regardless of execute
• Wield Soul = 1.5%/1s for 5s = 1500 dmg capped regardless of execute

75k hp target:

• Soul Burst = 2.8%/2s for 10s = 2100 dmg scaling up to 2800, the cap
• Wield Soul = 1.5%/1s for 5s = 1125 dmg scaling up to 1500, the cap

In reality, most targets will be in the 35-45k range like you showed for sure, but Oblivion damage isn't meant for the average build, it's meant for hp stacking tanks, so it makes perfect sense you'd only get around 60-75% the value (when considering execute) for that type of player.

i wasnt sure if it still retained the execute portion when they shifted it to a dot lol, and i dont think i ever heard an answer when i had asked a few weeks ago in an early thread about the oblivion execute if the dmg cap applied before or after the execute scaling (i had assumed before though)

It's still an execute, and the cap is applied before.

Necrotech_Master

ToRelax wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

to go along with this, the only way you will ever see ticks of 2800 or 1500 is if the target has 100k max hp or greater

will likely never see this in pvp unless the current emp was a necromancer running goliath form lol

to give more realistic scenarios:

35k hp target: 2.8% = 980 dmg, 1.5% = 525 dmg

45k hp target: 2.8% = 1260 dmg, 1.5% = 625 dmg

Pretty sure the design idea is to melt the more common tanky builds in execute, while still being effective for ridiculously high HP builds too. You need to consider the execute scaling gives up to +100% damage, on a 50k HP target, the damage will double and cap out. On anything above 50k hp, you will start wasting a bit of power in execute, but the base damage still improves above execute.

If execute wasn't a part of the power budget, they wouldn't of added it to begin with. It's disingenuous to not include it.

50k hp target:

• Soul Burst = 2.8%/2s for 10s = 1400 dmg scaling up to 2800, the cap
• Wield Soul = 1.5%/1s for 5s = 750 dmg scaling up to 1500, the cap

100k hp target:

• Soul Burst = 2.8%/2s for 10s = 2800 dmg capped regardless of execute
• Wield Soul = 1.5%/1s for 5s = 1500 dmg capped regardless of execute

75k hp target:

• Soul Burst = 2.8%/2s for 10s = 2100 dmg scaling up to 2800, the cap
• Wield Soul = 1.5%/1s for 5s = 1125 dmg scaling up to 1500, the cap

In reality, most targets will be in the 35-45k range like you showed for sure, but Oblivion damage isn't meant for the average build, it's meant for hp stacking tanks, so it makes perfect sense you'd only get around 60-75% the value (when considering execute) for that type of player.

i wasnt sure if it still retained the execute portion when they shifted it to a dot lol, and i dont think i ever heard an answer when i had asked a few weeks ago in an early thread about the oblivion execute if the dmg cap applied before or after the execute scaling (i had assumed before though)

It's still an execute, and the cap is applied before.

good to know lol

sharquez

NyassaV wrote: »

I'm worried this will be a second coming of Sload's call. For those who do not remember, when Summerset came out there was a set called Sload's Call which everyone uses. DMGing any enemy applied a dot which did oblivion damage. It was horrible. Nightblades couldn't cloak, Templars ran out of Mag having to purge it, DKs and Wardens did mostly fine. Sorcs struggled with the dmg going through sheilds.

It was hell on earth (Tamriel)

And yet in my opinion it was still the best of times in ESO. Sorc Died to sloads but could kill anyone with 1 meteor combo. Would love to play again in that patch just for a little while