Why aren't bash builds popular?

moo_2021 · February 9

Just turned my 6th toon to bashing vampire. It's quite survivable for a one-bar noob, with cc combo, low resource and high unbuffed damage, and bash doesn't occupy any slot.

But why almost nobody else does it? ve seen no more than 3 and 1 of them is whom I stole the build from. Are there easy counters except living dark kept getting proced?

Galeriano · February 9

There are people running with bash build most noticably arcanists lately. Build is strong against squishy targets or less experienced players but this is where build effectiveness ends. Every more experienced player playing as brawler can easily deal with dmg coming from a bash build.

It's a decent setup and sometimes even broken but it's not not that enjoyable to play and its not as universal as some other setups can be.

LunaFlora · February 9

i think they're fun, but i prefer ranged so i don't often use bash builds.

also bash does occupy a slot if you want more damage Power Bash.

and they're probably not very popular because you can get more damage with other weapons.

moo_2021 · February 9

LunaFlora wrote: »

and they're probably not very popular because you can get more damage with other weapons.

but how would you survive at the same time? Or are there other S&B based builds? the shield and the ulti are the only reason I can stay on offensive.

Vaqual · February 9

I think it is popular and quite fun, but you basically need to be glued to the enemy in melee to get your value. Investing in bash leaves your other offensive options weaker, so it might not produce the burst spikes you could get with other stat splits and/or burst procs. It is not bad, I think it can have really good damage. It is up there with other stuff, but it is not the most convenient or simple to execute. The stat just does nothing for you while you are not bashing.
So if you take the damage you "miss out on" and the damage you get from your build (depends on individual choice, doesn't need to fully infused bash, demolisher can be quite decent with lower commitment too), then you can calculate what kind of uptime you need to break even with an alternative build. It is often doable, but at the same time 10s pass so quickly sometimes...

wazzz56 · February 9

moo_2021 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

and they're probably not very popular because you can get more damage with other weapons.

but how would you survive at the same time? Or are there other S&B based builds? the shield and the ulti are the only reason I can stay on offensive.

what class are you running?

moo_2021 · February 9

wazzz56 wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

and they're probably not very popular because you can get more damage with other weapons.

but how would you survive at the same time? Or are there other S&B based builds? the shield and the ulti are the only reason I can stay on offensive.

what class are you running?

Sorc, warden, dk, templar, nb, arcanist.

Templar has living dark but others only have vigor as hot (1 bar)

Sleep724 · February 10

Bash damage was nerfed a while ago. Have to sacrifice a lot to make it work and most hardcore pvp’ers prefer to maximize their builds.

I just switched from bash DK to bash Templar in pvp and thoroughly enjoy it but against good opponent's it definitely struggles.

Rhaegar75 · February 10

moo_2021 wrote: »

Just turned my 6th toon to bashing vampire. It's quite survivable for a one-bar noob, with cc combo, low resource and high unbuffed damage, and bash doesn't occupy any slot.

But why almost nobody else does it? ve seen no more than 3 and 1 of them is whom I stole the build from. Are there easy counters except living dark kept getting proced?

They are super boring: even if some 'tryhard' may develop a super build it won't work for the average player so most people won't bother

haelgaan · February 10

Sleep724 wrote: »

Bash damage was nerfed a while ago

This. and tbh i'm glad bash weaving died, at least on the pve side, too much effort for the benefit

Sleep724 · February 10

haelgaan wrote: »

Sleep724 wrote: »

Bash damage was nerfed a while ago

This. and tbh i'm glad bash weaving died, at least on the pve side, too much effort for the benefit

I liked it in pvp but didn’t think it was necessary in pve as opposed to light attacking in between.

moo_2021 · February 10

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

They are super boring: even if some 'tryhard' may develop a super build it won't work for the average player so most people won't bother

boring how?

LA -> ability -> bash weaving is fun and it's not too difficult with xbox elite controller (need one extra button on the back)

Rhaegar75 · February 11

moo_2021 wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

They are super boring: even if some 'tryhard' may develop a super build it won't work for the average player so most people won't bother

boring how?

LA -> ability -> bash weaving is fun and it's not too difficult with xbox elite controller (need one extra button on the back)

Personally I find a build like that too repetitive and bot like.

moo_2021 · February 11

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Personally I find a build like that too repetitive and bot like.

you mean it doesn't need anything to help bursting someone?

That's why I asked - because it's literally the easiest and quickest 1 bar combo I have found, no HA, no cast time, all under 1-2 seconds.

Rhaegar75 · February 12

moo_2021 wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Personally I find a build like that too repetitive and bot like.

you mean it doesn't need anything to help bursting someone?

That's why I asked - because it's literally the easiest and quickest 1 bar combo I have found, no HA, no cast time, all under 1-2 seconds.

Pretty much: I’ve tried a bash build and 1. I wasn’t very good and 2. I felt it was very repetitive and therefore I really had no fun

Siliziumdioxid · February 12

Remember it being quite good on DK a few years ago. It was basically the Light attack > ability > bash combo that one could do with any skill. Bash damage got reduced with some patch (don't remember which one though)
I do bash weaving from time to time to max damage with any weapon, or to animation cancel the ability before.

ItsNotLiving · February 12

Bash builds are boring that’s your answer.

xylena_lazarow · February 12

*moves slightly to the left*

SkaraMinoc · February 13

Siliziumdioxid wrote: »

Bash damage got reduced with some patch (don't remember which one though)

Deadly Bash passive got nerfed in Update 33 but they also buffed Power Slam to scale with both wd/sd and bash damage.

Bash cooldown was reduced to 333ms in Update 32 and they made it so you can bash weave abilities faster.

SkaraMinoc · February 13

Bash Nightblades will hit very hard next patch (U41). If you've been following PTS.

Vaqual · February 13

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Bash Nightblades will hit very hard next patch (U41). If you've been following PTS.

What makes you say that? The loss of major berserk is not making them hit harder and incap duration will benefit all types of builds. Outside of the active use of siphoning strikes the sustain will not be significantly impacted, except for players who are block cast bashing instead of LA weave bashing, which is a very situational thing to do and less DPS, and you basically drop your stam recovery for that.

Of course they get quicker access to resetting resources, not limited by the 20s timer, but that is likely nothing you do mid engagement, because you will expend so many GCDs for casting siphoning and healing back up, that you can not effectively pressure during that time.

I like the upcoming change, but I fail to see how that is a big deal for bash builds compared to the live version.

SkaraMinoc · February 13

Vaqual wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Bash Nightblades will hit very hard next patch (U41). If you've been following PTS.

What makes you say that? The loss of major berserk is not making them hit harder and incap duration will benefit all types of builds. Outside of the active use of siphoning strikes the sustain will not be significantly impacted, except for players who are block cast bashing instead of LA weave bashing, which is a very situational thing to do and less DPS, and you basically drop your stam recovery for that.

Of course they get quicker access to resetting resources, not limited by the 20s timer, but that is likely nothing you do mid engagement, because you will expend so many GCDs for casting siphoning and healing back up, that you can not effectively pressure during that time.

I like the upcoming change, but I fail to see how that is a big deal for bash builds compared to the live version.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8037832/#Comment_8037832

The Siphoning Attacks mini Dark Deal is enough sustain to go full damage bash build. We couldn't do this before. This is a common problem for bash builds that don't have sustain built into the class. You still need to stealth on the Bashblade. It's not a brawler. But the sustain is good enough now that you can repeatedly execute a combo opener from stealth.

Something like 20-30k burst in 1-2 seconds depending on your build. That's good for a bash build.

taugrim · February 13

I'm surprised so many of the comments here are dismissive of bash builds. Makes me wonder if people are downplaying bash builds because they want to keep it quiet.

Bash builds are already very effective in high MMR BGs. The pressure is really high, and the bash player usually opens with Shield Charge, so you have the stun plus damage shielding.

I don't play them because I think they're kinda cheesy, but there's no questioning their effectiveness for solo queue play.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Something like 20-30k burst in 1-2 seconds depending on your build. That's good for a bash build.

That's pretty nuts.

Vaqual · February 13

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Bash Nightblades will hit very hard next patch (U41). If you've been following PTS.

What makes you say that? The loss of major berserk is not making them hit harder and incap duration will benefit all types of builds. Outside of the active use of siphoning strikes the sustain will not be significantly impacted, except for players who are block cast bashing instead of LA weave bashing, which is a very situational thing to do and less DPS, and you basically drop your stam recovery for that.

Of course they get quicker access to resetting resources, not limited by the 20s timer, but that is likely nothing you do mid engagement, because you will expend so many GCDs for casting siphoning and healing back up, that you can not effectively pressure during that time.

I like the upcoming change, but I fail to see how that is a big deal for bash builds compared to the live version.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8037832/#Comment_8037832

The Siphoning Attacks mini Dark Deal is enough sustain to go full damage bash build. We couldn't do this before. This is a common problem for bash builds that don't have sustain built into the class. You still need to stealth on the Bashblade. It's not a brawler. But the sustain is good enough now that you can repeatedly execute a combo opener from stealth.

Something like 20-30k burst in 1-2 seconds depending on your build. That's good for a bash build.

But the point is the level of passive sustain is not changing much, the substantial difference comes from the active component. For the playstyle you suggest prebuffing the live version and getting the 4k mid fight might without cast might even be better.
If you rely on actively using leeching to compensate for the lack of recovery on your build you are making yourself vulnerable outside of just burst engagements. You could just as well build the same on live and just disengage all the same. I am not trying to say that the change is weak or that I don't like it, but the impact for this type of setup feels is a bit over exaggerated.
The only thing where I see problem potential is block tanking, but full block tanks are nothing more than a nuisance anyway.

SkaraMinoc · February 15

Vaqual wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Bash Nightblades will hit very hard next patch (U41). If you've been following PTS.

What makes you say that? The loss of major berserk is not making them hit harder and incap duration will benefit all types of builds. Outside of the active use of siphoning strikes the sustain will not be significantly impacted, except for players who are block cast bashing instead of LA weave bashing, which is a very situational thing to do and less DPS, and you basically drop your stam recovery for that.

Of course they get quicker access to resetting resources, not limited by the 20s timer, but that is likely nothing you do mid engagement, because you will expend so many GCDs for casting siphoning and healing back up, that you can not effectively pressure during that time.

I like the upcoming change, but I fail to see how that is a big deal for bash builds compared to the live version.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8037832/#Comment_8037832

The Siphoning Attacks mini Dark Deal is enough sustain to go full damage bash build. We couldn't do this before. This is a common problem for bash builds that don't have sustain built into the class. You still need to stealth on the Bashblade. It's not a brawler. But the sustain is good enough now that you can repeatedly execute a combo opener from stealth.

Something like 20-30k burst in 1-2 seconds depending on your build. That's good for a bash build.

But the point is the level of passive sustain is not changing much, the substantial difference comes from the active component. For the playstyle you suggest prebuffing the live version and getting the 4k mid fight might without cast might even be better.
If you rely on actively using leeching to compensate for the lack of recovery on your build you are making yourself vulnerable outside of just burst engagements. You could just as well build the same on live and just disengage all the same. I am not trying to say that the change is weak or that I don't like it, but the impact for this type of setup feels is a bit over exaggerated.
The only thing where I see problem potential is block tanking, but full block tanks are nothing more than a nuisance anyway.

I mean you're not wrong. We'll have to wait until Live for some in-depth PvP testing. DPS numbers on the Vamp Dummy and theorycrafting what-if's will only give so much accuracy. Let's wait and see.

Major_Toughness · February 15

Bash Arcanist is arguably the strongest spec in the game. It is insanely tanky and has great damage.

However, bash builds are incredibly boring.

TechMaybeHic · February 15

I find myself weaving bash more and more, when I see enemies holding block. Basically just to increase my APM on them as there's not much damage without investing in it, but I'm considering investing in it as weaving it seems really easy now

moo_2021 · February 15

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Bash Arcanist is arguably the strongest spec in the game. It is insanely tanky and has great damage.

no idea how to build tanky with one bar.

But bashing is really good against their dreadful beam. Previously any newbie arcanist can easily delete me by it.

Shadowbinder7 · July 23

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

They are super boring: even if some 'tryhard' may develop a super build it won't work for the average player so most people won't bother

boring how?

LA -> ability -> bash weaving is fun and it's not too difficult with xbox elite controller (need one extra button on the back)

Personally I find a build like that too repetitive and bot like.

It looks satisfying. But it’s too irritating on my thumbs tho, with a random hold key bound on my standard Xbox or ps4 controller.

Like the opposite of a heavy attack build in terms of hand pain lol (one is boring other is too demanding on the fingers/thumb)

Shadowbinder7 · July 23

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Bash Arcanist is arguably the strongest spec in the game. It is insanely tanky and has great damage.

However, bash builds are incredibly boring.

Is this mainly because of the bash weave? Or another reason ok

Shadowbinder7 · July 23

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Bash Nightblades will hit very hard next patch (U41). If you've been following PTS.

What makes you say that? The loss of major berserk is not making them hit harder and incap duration will benefit all types of builds. Outside of the active use of siphoning strikes the sustain will not be significantly impacted, except for players who are block cast bashing instead of LA weave bashing, which is a very situational thing to do and less DPS, and you basically drop your stam recovery for that.

Of course they get quicker access to resetting resources, not limited by the 20s timer, but that is likely nothing you do mid engagement, because you will expend so many GCDs for casting siphoning and healing back up, that you can not effectively pressure during that time.

I like the upcoming change, but I fail to see how that is a big deal for bash builds compared to the live version.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8037832/#Comment_8037832

The Siphoning Attacks mini Dark Deal is enough sustain to go full damage bash build. We couldn't do this before. This is a common problem for bash builds that don't have sustain built into the class. You still need to stealth on the Bashblade. It's not a brawler. But the sustain is good enough now that you can repeatedly execute a combo opener from stealth.

Something like 20-30k burst in 1-2 seconds depending on your build. That's good for a bash build.

It’s a shame I don’t see any Bashcros 😢 it’s the main bash build I wanted to try. But my stam sustain on stamcro is already awful