The Nerf to Major Defile

huskandhunger

With the current power of hybridized healing in PVP may we not nerf Major Defile from the current 18% on live to the Smol 12% on PTS. It's already meager as it is.

silky_soft

They should buff it instead

bar_boss_A

Major defile should be removed from all abilities granting 100% uptime:

• Blighted Blastbones
• Corrupting Pollen
• Dark Flare

Buffed to 20% healing and shielding reduced and a CP added which increases the potency by 50%. Major Debuffs are Ultimate/5-piece set exclusive and should be correspondingly impactful.

Iriidius

It is only logical to nerf defile when they nerf vitality, because defile is the inverse of vitality. Sure people would like anything that reduces healing, because healing is seen as too strong, but it would be unbalanced if the inverse is stronger than the inversed. What is also unbalanced and would help reduce healing is the absence of a debuff reducing healing done. Currently there are 2 buffs to healing, 1 for healing done and 1 for healing taken, but only 1 debuff for healing taken.
Some people also want higher defile to make stamina blastbones stronger. It could have gotten major and minor defile or both debuffs, but now that magicka blastbones is gone, it will rather get the extra damage off it and can‘t get additional buffs without getting op.

gvgisdi

Bring back old major defile, you actually noticed it when applied

Necrotech_Master

gvgisdi wrote: »

Bring back old major defile, you actually noticed it when applied

old defile + old fasalla guile + the old cp node for buffing defile lol

i actually knew some people who ran builds like that and could hit upwards of almost -100% healing lol

bar_boss_A

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

old defile + old fasalla guile + the old cp node for buffing defile lol

i actually knew some people who ran builds like that and could hit upwards of almost -100% healing lol

No it capped at 66% when applying both major and minor defile... yeahh im guilty

Twohothardware

Major Defile has become such a minor buff that at 12% it's going to barely make a difference even if you have 100% uptime. Heals are crazy in PvP right now when you can have multiples of the same healing skill stacking on players.

Necrotech_Master

bar_boss_A wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

old defile + old fasalla guile + the old cp node for buffing defile lol

i actually knew some people who ran builds like that and could hit upwards of almost -100% healing lol

No it capped at 66% when applying both major and minor defile... yeahh im guilty

fasalla guile gear set used to have its own unique -heal on it that stacked with defiles, that set got changed quite some time ago to just apply the defile debuff instead

xylena_lazarow

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

old defile + old fasalla guile + the old cp node for buffing defile lol

i actually knew some people who ran builds like that and could hit upwards of almost -100% healing lol

And yet, these builds were surprisingly balanced. All pressure, no burst, slow to kill enemies. Every single point of Defile was absolutely necessary to break through enemy healing and defenses, even in a 25k hp meta.

There was a neat little rocks-paper-scissors kind of thing going with the Fasallas Defile attrition builds, midrange damage Bleed builds, and bursty glass cannons. Morrowind was a very underrated PvP meta.

Then ZOS makes everyone heal to infinity forever? Defiles were already a meme, now nerfed even more, what the actual.

runa_gate

This is a truly horrendous change

Morvan

They wanted to compensate for adding a debuff to damage shields but they should just keep the old numbers, it's not like having -18% healing reduced with a shield debuff will break anything, healing is already super broken as it is.

StarOfElyon

huskandhunger wrote: »

With the current power of hybridized healing in PVP may we not nerf Major Defile from the current 18% on live to the Smol 12% on PTS. It's already meager as it is.

Oh man this went right over my head!

Necromancer's are left with only the Blighted Blastbones morph (which is already weaker than Stalking Blastbones), and now Blighted Blastbones has been nerfed too! Wow. I'm just flabbergasted.

DKs and NBs get buffs nobody asked for and Necros get nerfs nobody asked for. I have to laugh at it to cope.

Aldoss

Morvan wrote: »

They wanted to compensate for adding a debuff to damage shields but they should just keep the old numbers, it's not like having -18% healing reduced with a shield debuff will break anything, healing is already super broken as it is.

And shields are absurdly large now with so many of them scaling or being limited by a % of hp. Arc shields are absurdly large.

Adernath

LOL, what are they smoking? Defile is one of the few options to reduce the horrendous healing in PvP at least a little. This change goes in the complete opposite direction.

Skoomah

The change to defile makes it a direct counter to shield users like sorcs and arcanist. If you have access to defile, you can permanently render the opponent 12% lower max hit points pool. Max hit points pool = Health + Shield

Access to defile can be found on many class skills.

Health recovery is also a dead stat so replacing part of the effect with an effect against shields is a net gain even though it’s 6% less on the first portion.

Also, defile is turning into an AOE debuff. I think overall, this change is a net positive when considering its effect against a combination of sources of mitigation.

i11ionward

We have 2 major and 2 minor buffs to increase healing (done + take), but only one major and minor debuff to reduce healing. We also must not forget that there are simple set bonuses, passive skills and CP that increase healing. In addition, there are not so many Major/Minor Defile sources in the game.
The main thing is that Major/Minor Defile does not affect PVE.
I think ZOS could do 20%/10% for Major/Minor Defile and no one would be against it.

Panderbander

Skoomah wrote: »

The change to defile makes it a direct counter to shield users like sorcs and arcanist. If you have access to defile, you can permanently render the opponent 12% lower max hit points pool. Max hit points pool = Health + Shield

That's not quite how the math works. 12% off of a temporary buff to effective HP that is also typically capped to a percentage of max hp is not the same as 12% lower max hit points.

For example, let's say a target has 20k hp and casts a shield that caps out at 50% of max hp. That shield would be 10k effective max hp for a few seconds if unimpeded by an effect like defile, bringing the max effective hp to 30k. Apply defile and you get a 12% reduction to that shield, making it 8.8k instead, or a max effective hp of 28.8k, a difference of 1.2k health. 1.2k divided by 30k gives an actual max hp reduction of just 0.04, or 4%. This same math can be extrapolated to just about any health pool considering the cap placed on shields (and 50% is a pretty large cap not counting ultimates).

This part of a major debuff is actually worse than minor mangle and only works on shielded targets unlike minor mangle, meaning that portion of the debuff is wasted on any target that is not shielded. Let's not forget that vitality has also been changed to affect shields, meaning healing overall has been boosted by negating any gain to defile's effectiveness while also reducing its hit to healing.

I agree that the health recovery bit was worthless and feel it always should have affected shields but until there is a debuff for healing done any reduction in defile effectiveness will result in an increase in healing done in an already heal-heavy meta.

EDIT: I should add that minor mangle effectiveness has also been significantly reduced by being decoupled from hemorrhaging, making it significantly harder to have up on a target.

CameraBeardThePirate

Panderbander wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The change to defile makes it a direct counter to shield users like sorcs and arcanist. If you have access to defile, you can permanently render the opponent 12% lower max hit points pool. Max hit points pool = Health + Shield

That's not quite how the math works. 12% off of a temporary buff to effective HP that is also typically capped to a percentage of max hp is not the same as 12% lower max hit points.

For example, let's say a target has 20k hp and casts a shield that caps out at 50% of max hp. That shield would be 10k effective max hp for a few seconds if unimpeded by an effect like defile, bringing the max effective hp to 30k. Apply defile and you get a 12% reduction to that shield, making it 8.8k instead, or a max effective hp of 28.8k, a difference of 1.2k health. 1.2k divided by 30k gives an actual max hp reduction of just 0.04, or 4%. This same math can be extrapolated to just about any health pool considering the cap placed on shields (and 50% is a pretty large cap not counting ultimates).

This part of a major debuff is actually worse than minor mangle and only works on shielded targets unlike minor mangle, meaning that portion of the debuff is wasted on any target that is not shielded. Let's not forget that vitality has also been changed to affect shields, meaning healing overall has been boosted by negating any gain to defile's effectiveness while also reducing its hit to healing.

I agree that the health recovery bit was worthless and feel it always should have affected shields but until there is a debuff for healing done any reduction in defile effectiveness will result in an increase in healing done in an already heal-heavy meta.

EDIT: I should add that minor mangle effectiveness has also been significantly reduced by being decoupled from hemorrhaging, making it significantly harder to have up on a target.

Considering in the other thread they said 10+10+15 = 45, math might not be their strong suit.

Defile is getting nerfed no matter which way you try to slice it.

xylena_lazarow

Skoomah wrote: »

The change to defile makes it a direct counter to shield users like sorcs and arcanist... I think overall, this change is a net positive when considering its effect against a combination of sources of mitigation.

Even as an Arc shield enjoyer, I'd support buffing Defile to 10/20 or even 15/30 like it used to be.

IncultaWolf

It's a nerf and will make targets a lot harder to kill in pvp, healing is very strong right now.

It's also an indirect nerf to stamina blastbones, so this change hurts necromancers as well, an already struggling class.

Erickson9610

If Defile is to be nerfed, then Battle Spirit should further reduce Damage Shield strength and Healing Received. I understand not wanting Defile alone to be so powerful that it becomes mandatory in every PvP build, but the effectiveness of healing and damage shields of groups in PvP is overwhelmingly strong.

Nerfing Defile without reducing healing and damage shields elsewhere in PvP is going to further reinforce the tank meta.

Iriidius

Erickson9610 wrote: »

If Defile is to be nerfed, then Battle Spirit should further reduce Damage Shield strength and Healing Received. I understand not wanting Defile alone to be so powerful that it becomes mandatory in every PvP build, but the effectiveness of healing and damage shields of groups in PvP is overwhelmingly strong.

Nerfing Defile without reducing healing and damage shields elsewhere in PvP is going to further reinforce the tank meta.

They already also nerfed vitality, the inverse of defile, so they already equalize each other and there is no need to nerf healing by battlespirit to reduce defile nerf.
Proc Sets and remaining unnerfed strong offensive can outdamage healing bt many classes got nerfed to much to pressure threw healing. ZOS should unnerf damage skills of most classes that didn't really need the nerf to make sure every class can deal good dmg and they should nerf healstacking, than healing wouldnt make kills as difficult as they are now.

Skoomah

Healing is the best force multiplier in the game. One HOT that heals multiple players at once keeps them going and sustained thoughout the battle.

Panderbander wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The change to defile makes it a direct counter to shield users like sorcs and arcanist. If you have access to defile, you can permanently render the opponent 12% lower max hit points pool. Max hit points pool = Health + Shield

That's not quite how the math works. 12% off of a temporary buff to effective HP that is also typically capped to a percentage of max hp is not the same as 12% lower max hit points.

For example, let's say a target has 20k hp and casts a shield that caps out at 50% of max hp. That shield would be 10k effective max hp for a few seconds if unimpeded by an effect like defile, bringing the max effective hp to 30k. Apply defile and you get a 12% reduction to that shield, making it 8.8k instead, or a max effective hp of 28.8k, a difference of 1.2k health. 1.2k divided by 30k gives an actual max hp reduction of just 0.04, or 4%. This same math can be extrapolated to just about any health pool considering the cap placed on shields (and 50% is a pretty large cap not counting ultimates).

This part of a major debuff is actually worse than minor mangle and only works on shielded targets unlike minor mangle, meaning that portion of the debuff is wasted on any target that is not shielded. Let's not forget that vitality has also been changed to affect shields, meaning healing overall has been boosted by negating any gain to defile's effectiveness while also reducing its hit to healing.

I agree that the health recovery bit was worthless and feel it always should have affected shields but until there is a debuff for healing done any reduction in defile effectiveness will result in an increase in healing done in an already heal-heavy meta.

EDIT: I should add that minor mangle effectiveness has also been significantly reduced by being decoupled from hemorrhaging, making it significantly harder to have up on a target.

The change to defile is a net positive. I’d rather have a skill that reduces both healing received and damage shields vs. healing received and health recovery. Health recovery is not a stat people invest into anymore due to meta changes.

Skoomah

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The change to defile makes it a direct counter to shield users like sorcs and arcanist... I think overall, this change is a net positive when considering its effect against a combination of sources of mitigation.

Even as an Arc shield enjoyer, I'd support buffing Defile to 10/20 or even 15/30 like it used to be.

I support both to what defile debuffs going forward AND increasing the strength

Galeriano

huskandhunger wrote: »

With the current power of hybridized healing in PVP may we not nerf Major Defile from the current 18% on live to the Smol 12% on PTS. It's already meager as it is.

Major defile is 16% on live server not 18%. There is a misprint in that linked screenshot, instead of 8/16 for minor/major defile there is 6/18.

So it goes down from 16% to 12%. Keep in mind that the same fate happens to healing buffs minor and major vitality and that new major defile will also affect shields.

Galeriano

Erickson9610 wrote: »

If Defile is to be nerfed, then Battle Spirit should further reduce Damage Shield strength and Healing Received. I understand not wanting Defile alone to be so powerful that it becomes mandatory in every PvP build, but the effectiveness of healing and damage shields of groups in PvP is overwhelmingly strong.

Nerfing Defile without reducing healing and damage shields elsewhere in PvP is going to further reinforce the tank meta.

Healing and damage shields are also being adressed. Minor/majoe vitality buffs recive the same nerfs as defiles and new defiles will also reduce shield values.

Galeriano

Skoomah wrote: »

The change to defile makes it a direct counter to shield users like sorcs and arcanist. If you have access to defile, you can permanently render the opponent 12% lower max hit points pool. Max hit points pool = Health + Shield

Access to defile can be found on many class skills.

Health recovery is also a dead stat so replacing part of the effect with an effect against shields is a net gain even though it’s 6% less on the first portion.

Also, defile is turning into an AOE debuff. I think overall, this change is a net positive when considering its effect against a combination of sources of mitigation.

Well in all honesty necromancer with plaguebrak applying AoE major and minor defile next patch which will reduce healing and shields of people around by 18% sounds pretty interresting.

Erickson9610

Iriidius wrote: »

They already also nerfed vitality, the inverse of defile, so they already equalize each other and there is no need to nerf healing by battlespirit to reduce defile nerf.
Proc Sets and remaining unnerfed strong offensive can outdamage healing bt many classes got nerfed to much to pressure threw healing. ZOS should unnerf damage skills of most classes that didn't really need the nerf to make sure every class can deal good dmg and they should nerf healstacking, than healing wouldnt make kills as difficult as they are now.

Galeriano wrote: »

Healing and damage shields are also being adressed. Minor/majoe vitality buffs recive the same nerfs as defiles and new defiles will also reduce shield values.

Yes, Vitality and Defile have the same values, but that doesn't mean that there was a net zero change — in the event that someone doesn't have Vitality but does have Defile, then the Defile nerf means they'll have relatively more healing than they did before the Defile nerf.

If a player has a net of zero, whether from having both Defile and Vitality or from having neither, then they still have more increases to healing done than reductions to healing done — why is there no opposing Major/Minor debuff to Mending? Mending increases Healing Done, not Healing Received, and there is currently no counter debuff for that.

Panderbander

Skoomah wrote: »

Healing is the best force multiplier in the game. One HOT that heals multiple players at once keeps them going and sustained thoughout the battle.

Panderbander wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The change to defile makes it a direct counter to shield users like sorcs and arcanist. If you have access to defile, you can permanently render the opponent 12% lower max hit points pool. Max hit points pool = Health + Shield

That's not quite how the math works. 12% off of a temporary buff to effective HP that is also typically capped to a percentage of max hp is not the same as 12% lower max hit points.

For example, let's say a target has 20k hp and casts a shield that caps out at 50% of max hp. That shield would be 10k effective max hp for a few seconds if unimpeded by an effect like defile, bringing the max effective hp to 30k. Apply defile and you get a 12% reduction to that shield, making it 8.8k instead, or a max effective hp of 28.8k, a difference of 1.2k health. 1.2k divided by 30k gives an actual max hp reduction of just 0.04, or 4%. This same math can be extrapolated to just about any health pool considering the cap placed on shields (and 50% is a pretty large cap not counting ultimates).

This part of a major debuff is actually worse than minor mangle and only works on shielded targets unlike minor mangle, meaning that portion of the debuff is wasted on any target that is not shielded. Let's not forget that vitality has also been changed to affect shields, meaning healing overall has been boosted by negating any gain to defile's effectiveness while also reducing its hit to healing.

I agree that the health recovery bit was worthless and feel it always should have affected shields but until there is a debuff for healing done any reduction in defile effectiveness will result in an increase in healing done in an already heal-heavy meta.

EDIT: I should add that minor mangle effectiveness has also been significantly reduced by being decoupled from hemorrhaging, making it significantly harder to have up on a target.

The change to defile is a net positive. I’d rather have a skill that reduces both healing received and damage shields vs. healing received and health recovery. Health recovery is not a stat people invest into anymore due to meta changes.

Healing as a whole has been increased presumably so that defile can hit shields that only exist on a portion of the population. Everyone gets heals; not everyone gets shields.

It does not matter how you slice it, with no direct opposite to mending any reduction in the effectiveness defile offers for reducing healing on a target means heals will be stronger and everyone heals. This is basic math.

huskandhunger

Skoomah wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Healing is the best force multiplier in the game. One HOT that heals multiple players at once keeps them going and sustained thoughout the battle.

Panderbander wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

The change to defile makes it a direct counter to shield users like sorcs and arcanist. If you have access to defile, you can permanently render the opponent 12% lower max hit points pool. Max hit points pool = Health + Shield

That's not quite how the math works. 12% off of a temporary buff to effective HP that is also typically capped to a percentage of max hp is not the same as 12% lower max hit points.

For example, let's say a target has 20k hp and casts a shield that caps out at 50% of max hp. That shield would be 10k effective max hp for a few seconds if unimpeded by an effect like defile, bringing the max effective hp to 30k. Apply defile and you get a 12% reduction to that shield, making it 8.8k instead, or a max effective hp of 28.8k, a difference of 1.2k health. 1.2k divided by 30k gives an actual max hp reduction of just 0.04, or 4%. This same math can be extrapolated to just about any health pool considering the cap placed on shields (and 50% is a pretty large cap not counting ultimates).

This part of a major debuff is actually worse than minor mangle and only works on shielded targets unlike minor mangle, meaning that portion of the debuff is wasted on any target that is not shielded. Let's not forget that vitality has also been changed to affect shields, meaning healing overall has been boosted by negating any gain to defile's effectiveness while also reducing its hit to healing.

I agree that the health recovery bit was worthless and feel it always should have affected shields but until there is a debuff for healing done any reduction in defile effectiveness will result in an increase in healing done in an already heal-heavy meta.

EDIT: I should add that minor mangle effectiveness has also been significantly reduced by being decoupled from hemorrhaging, making it significantly harder to have up on a target.

The change to defile is a net positive. I’d rather have a skill that reduces both healing received and damage shields vs. healing received and health recovery. Health recovery is not a stat people invest into anymore due to meta changes.

Healing as a whole has been increased presumably so that defile can hit shields that only exist on a portion of the population. Everyone gets heals; not everyone gets shields.

It does not matter how you slice it, with no direct opposite to mending any reduction in the effectiveness defile offers for reducing healing on a target means heals will be stronger and everyone heals. This is basic math.

[snip]

Let's keep the discussion on topic. Numerically the lowering of defiles % reduction is not likely to help the current healing meta even with the added reduction in shield strength due to their current as of this post proposed values. Further adjustments may better fine tune it in later patch notes to hopefully address all of our concerns.

[edited to remove quote]