Using Atro reduces your damage if you don't have any pets

Soarora · January 30

Expert Summoner:
This passive now increases your Max Health by 5/10% while you have a summoned pet of any kind, up from 4/8% when you have a Daedric Summoning ability active.
This passive now also increases your Max Magicka and Stamina by 5/10% while you do not have a summoned pet of any kind.

Atronach is a pet despite being an ult and procs this, meaning you essentially lose 10% max resource when you ult if you're a non pet build. Whether this is intended or no, just making sure it is known.

Araneae6537 · January 30

Would it be a bad thing to use atro on a pet build and use meteor or destro ult or something else on a non-pet build?

Keystroke · January 30

This is a great observation! Probably not intentional on their end.

Soarora · January 30

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Would it be a bad thing to use atro on a pet build and use meteor or destro ult or something else on a non-pet build?

I'm not sure, I don't know the ins and outs of sorc dps. However, having your health and resource change during a fight just for using atro is a strange experience. Atro brings a pretty important group buff to the point I use it on my tank (and thus sorc dps would use in group content to boost group damage) so this change would actually affect me as well though it's less of a crisis than if I were a dps. Pet builds wouldn't have this changing effect since they already have pets out but changing atro from being a pet could have consequences for builds based around maximum pet damage. Maybe just excluding atro from this passive specifically would be a good idea.

Turtle_Bot · January 30

Keystroke wrote: »

This is a great observation! Probably not intentional on their end.

hopefully this is the case and it gets fixed.

@ZOS_Kevin some clarification on this would be greatly appreciated.

Turtle_Bot · January 30

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Would it be a bad thing to use atro on a pet build and use meteor or destro ult or something else on a non-pet build?

The only reason sorcerer is currently brought into groups is the atro synergy that provides major berserk to the entire group. Sorcerer outside of that 1 niche doesn't bring anything to the group that another class doesn't already provide.

This change would mean that there's even more reason to not bring a sorcerer along since that no-pet sorcerer would not have atro for the group synergy unless it gave up the increase in DPS it got from this passive (which is the whole reason for the change to this passive in the first place).

Realistically all this change needed was for either the bonus health or the bonus mag/stam to be active while a daedric summoning ability was slotted on either bar and the other bonus to be active only when there's also no pet active, that way it provides its full benefits when not using pets, but doesn't completely flip the passive if the sorc runs its best ultimate (atro).

UNSeki · January 30

Hopefully not intentional. This cannot be ignored.

Necrotech_Master · January 30

when i read the new passive in the notes, it actually sounds like ANY summoned pet will proc that, which may warrant testing proc sets that summon pets such as maw of infernal or morkuldin

Entaro · January 30

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Keystroke wrote: »

This is a great observation! Probably not intentional on their end.

hopefully this is the case and it gets fixed.

@ZOS_Kevin some clarification on this would be greatly appreciated.

As long as they don't de-tag Atronoch as a Pet and ruin it's damage boost from Daedric Prey.

katorga · January 30

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

when i read the new passive in the notes, it actually sounds like ANY summoned pet will proc that, which may warrant testing proc sets that summon pets such as maw of infernal or morkuldin

Bound Armaments daggers count as pets today and proc the 8% health passive, so they will reduce your damage as well.

RaptorRodeoGod · January 30

Entaro wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Keystroke wrote: »

This is a great observation! Probably not intentional on their end.

hopefully this is the case and it gets fixed.

@ZOS_Kevin some clarification on this would be greatly appreciated.

As long as they don't de-tag Atronoch as a Pet and ruin it's damage boost from Daedric Prey.

Or they could remove the tag and boost the atros actual damage to compensate

RaptorRodeoGod · January 30

katorga wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

when i read the new passive in the notes, it actually sounds like ANY summoned pet will proc that, which may warrant testing proc sets that summon pets such as maw of infernal or morkuldin

Bound Armaments daggers count as pets today and proc the 8% health passive, so they will reduce your damage as well.

Do they work with daedric prey? I thought they didnt

katorga · January 30

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

when i read the new passive in the notes, it actually sounds like ANY summoned pet will proc that, which may warrant testing proc sets that summon pets such as maw of infernal or morkuldin

Bound Armaments daggers count as pets today and proc the 8% health passive, so they will reduce your damage as well.

Do they work with daedric prey? I thought they didnt

They do not, typical inconsistency. They should work with daedric prey, that would at least start to get Bound Armaments on par with Merciless Resolve.

acastanza_ESO · January 30

katorga wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

when i read the new passive in the notes, it actually sounds like ANY summoned pet will proc that, which may warrant testing proc sets that summon pets such as maw of infernal or morkuldin

Bound Armaments daggers count as pets today and proc the 8% health passive, so they will reduce your damage as well.

Do they work with daedric prey? I thought they didnt

They do not, typical inconsistency. They should work with daedric prey, that would at least start to get Bound Armaments on par with Merciless Resolve.

That would be some really nice class synergy. Wish they'd do this....

Galeriano · January 30

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Would it be a bad thing to use atro on a pet build and use meteor or destro ult or something else on a non-pet build?

Yes it would. Not only does this ulti provides one of the better group synergies but also the best ult that sorc have acces to damage wise.

olsborg · January 30

Atro shouldnt count as a pet, its an ultimate that lasts 15 sec. Sucks to then loose dmg-stats while it is up

tsaescishoeshiner · January 30

What if it was changed to "As long as you don't have Unstable Familiar or Winged Twilight active"? Then sets and the Storm Atronach wouldn't interfere with it.

I55UE5 · January 30

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Would it be a bad thing to use atro on a pet build and use meteor or destro ult or something else on a non-pet build?

Slotting an Ult outside of class skills will cause you to lose damage from the passive in Storm Calling, so yes.

Galeriano · January 30

It's just another example showing how poorly thought through this patch is. It's like a collection of random ideas filled with massive bias towards one specific class.

Erickson9610 · January 30

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

What if it was changed to "As long as you don't have Unstable Familiar or Winged Twilight active"? Then sets and the Storm Atronach wouldn't interfere with it.

How about the Health bonus only applies when you have permanent pets without a timer to their expiration (such as Unstable Familiar, Winged Twilight, and Pack Leader's dire wolves) so as to exclude temporary "pets" such as Storm Atronach, which are set to expire after a certain amount of time?

I really want to keep using the Health bonus for Pack Leader and the Magicka/Stamina bonus for Werewolf Berserker. This is one of the few buffs for Sorcerer Werewolf that we've seen in a while — I don't want this to be ruined before the patch goes live.

Araneae6537 · January 31

Galeriano wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Would it be a bad thing to use atro on a pet build and use meteor or destro ult or something else on a non-pet build?

Yes it would. Not only does this ulti provides one of the better group synergies but also the best ult that sorc have acces to damage wise.

I55UE5 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Would it be a bad thing to use atro on a pet build and use meteor or destro ult or something else on a non-pet build?

Slotting an Ult outside of class skills will cause you to lose damage from the passive in Storm Calling, so yes.

Good points, thank you! Overload needs to be made into something better then! 🤔
I have a DPS sorc and tank sorc that both use pets — I just want other options to be good, offering different strengths. I mean, there’s the whole storm and dark magic skill lines! It doesn’t make sense to me that those are dispensable but pets are essential for max DPS. The changes to expert summoner seem a step in the right direction but as you’ve pointed out, sorc needs to have another good DPS ult option. Negate seems useful, but I don’t think anyone uses Overload in either PvE or PvP.

Turtle_Bot · January 31

Overload is nice in PvP (although it has its issues, especially with desync and line of sight due to the fact that overload doesn't track its targets).
Overload also has it's niche cheese applications for trial dummy parsing.

This is where you start out with 500 ultimate with overload toggled on and leave it toggled until ultimate runs out, then you only use atro as your ultimate for the remainder of the parse (this is how the top parsing sorcerers reach that mythical 140k parse everyone keeps harping on about because it acts as though you're casting 2 spammables for the first 10% of the parse, which also happens to be when sorcerers amplitude passive has the greatest effect at the full +10% damage done).

This cheese parsing method is completely unusable for actual content though because it drops the groups DPS so much due to no atro synergy, it is also unreliable because there's no way you're going to have 500 ulti up for the start of every single boss fight unless you don't use atro for trash packs as well, which means even more group DPS loss.

Negate is also not that useful outside of group PvP encounters. It just doesn't deal enough damage to warrant using in PvE and the silence has been made irrelevant there with everything being immune to it because it was possible a very, very, long time ago to use it to skip/nullify boss mechanics.

Alpheu5 · January 31

katorga wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

when i read the new passive in the notes, it actually sounds like ANY summoned pet will proc that, which may warrant testing proc sets that summon pets such as maw of infernal or morkuldin

Bound Armaments daggers count as pets today and proc the 8% health passive, so they will reduce your damage as well.

It procs Expert Summoner because it's permanently active when slotted on either bar now. The daggers have nothing to do with it.

Edit: Just got off the PTS and the daggers don't count as pets on there either.

MashmalloMan · January 31

katorga wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

when i read the new passive in the notes, it actually sounds like ANY summoned pet will proc that, which may warrant testing proc sets that summon pets such as maw of infernal or morkuldin

Bound Armaments daggers count as pets today and proc the 8% health passive, so they will reduce your damage as well.

No they don't. The passive was updated past the patch you're thinking of (where the passive said pets and it worked with BA) to work off any Daedric Summoning skill effect, including shields and Bound Aegis.

MashmalloMan · January 31

Erickson9610 wrote: »

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

What if it was changed to "As long as you don't have Unstable Familiar or Winged Twilight active"? Then sets and the Storm Atronach wouldn't interfere with it.

How about the Health bonus only applies when you have permanent pets without a timer to their expiration (such as Unstable Familiar, Winged Twilight, and Pack Leader's dire wolves) so as to exclude temporary "pets" such as Storm Atronach, which are set to expire after a certain amount of time?

I really want to keep using the Health bonus for Pack Leader and the Magicka/Stamina bonus for Werewolf Berserker. This is one of the few buffs for Sorcerer Werewolf that we've seen in a while — I don't want this to be ruined before the patch goes live.

This has to be considered, the change was clearly deliberate to effect "any" pet so that builds could use it outside of the Daedric Summoning skill line like Werewolves or proc sets.

WW makes sense, proc sets, not so much. I'd give that up in a heartbeat, because think about it realistically. If you're using a set like Maw without pets and Daedric Prey, then why would you want the HP while it's up, losing your stam/mag. It would flip flop all the time. If you had pets and used Maw, then it wouldn't matter if the passive didn't include "any" pet to encompass proc sets.

So yeah, make it apply to any pet that is considered permanent, without a timer, then Atro can remain as a "pet" for Daedric Prey damage bonus purposes while not effecting pet sorc (already has 2 active pets) or no pet sorc in terms of the Expert Summoner passive.

Faulgor · January 31

while you have a summoned pet of any kind

Has anyone tested this with summoned pets from sets, such as Infernal Maw or Defiler?

MashmalloMan · January 31

Faulgor wrote: »

while you have a summoned pet of any kind

Has anyone tested this with summoned pets from sets, such as Infernal Maw or Defiler?

Yes I have, basically everything that works with Daedric Prey, works with the new passive in the same way.

ZhuJiuyin · January 31

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

As a fan of black magic, it would be great if Suppression Field could become Sorc's AOE option in PVE.

Maybe it could be redesigned as:
Create a globe of magic suppression for 12 seconds, removing and preventing all enemy area of effect abilities from occurring in the area. Enemies within the globe are stunned, while enemy players will be silenced rather than stunned.
Enemies within the range will suffer [13000/13200/13400/13600] (direct) magic damage (slightly higher than Ice Comet). Enemies that continue to stay in the sphere for more than 4 seconds will be cursed by darkness. Dark Curse causes an explosion every 4 seconds, a total of 3 explosions, each time causing enemies within 6 feet to suffer [13000/13200/13400/13600] (direct) magic damage, and each damaged enemy will be Overcharged. (13600*4=54400, slightly larger than Ice Comet 3609*11+12631=52300)

The explosion occurs every 4 seconds, which is exactly the same as the 4-second duration of Overcharged. Can apply Overcharged perfectly for a total of 12 seconds.
And since the Suppression Field is a floor range, it won't pose much of a threat in PVP, as the enemy only needs to leave within 4 seconds.

JonnytheKing · February 1

Soarora wrote: »

Expert Summoner:
This passive now increases your Max Health by 5/10% while you have a summoned pet of any kind, up from 4/8% when you have a Daedric Summoning ability active.
This passive now also increases your Max Magicka and Stamina by 5/10% while you do not have a summoned pet of any kind.

Atronach is a pet despite being an ult and procs this, meaning you essentially lose 10% max resource when you ult if you're a non pet build. Whether this is intended or no, just making sure it is known.

not that it matters atm, its bugged you get both

Turtle_Bot · February 1

JonnytheKing wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Expert Summoner:
This passive now increases your Max Health by 5/10% while you have a summoned pet of any kind, up from 4/8% when you have a Daedric Summoning ability active.
This passive now also increases your Max Magicka and Stamina by 5/10% while you do not have a summoned pet of any kind.

Atronach is a pet despite being an ult and procs this, meaning you essentially lose 10% max resource when you ult if you're a non pet build. Whether this is intended or no, just making sure it is known.

not that it matters atm, its bugged you get both

it correctly adjusts if you switch bars, just tested/confirmed this not even 10 mins ago.

Araneae6537 · February 1

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Overload is nice in PvP (although it has its issues, especially with desync and line of sight due to the fact that overload doesn't track its targets).
Overload also has it's niche cheese applications for trial dummy parsing.
This is where you start out with 500 ultimate with overload toggled on and leave it toggled until ultimate runs out, then you only use atro as your ultimate for the remainder of the parse (this is how the top parsing sorcerers reach that mythical 140k parse everyone keeps harping on about because it acts as though you're casting 2 spammables for the first 10% of the parse, which also happens to be when sorcerers amplitude passive has the greatest effect at the full +10% damage done).

This cheese parsing method is completely unusable for actual content though because it drops the groups DPS so much due to no atro synergy, it is also unreliable because there's no way you're going to have 500 ulti up for the start of every single boss fight unless you don't use atro for trash packs as well, which means even more group DPS loss.

Negate is also not that useful outside of group PvP encounters. It just doesn't deal enough damage to warrant using in PvE and the silence has been made irrelevant there with everything being immune to it because it was possible a very, very, long time ago to use it to skip/nullify boss mechanics.

So the problem definitely is that sorc needs other viable ultimates. Overload needs to be remade or replaced since it is currently useless since the purpose of parsing is to test builds / damage for actual application to the extent possible on a single target that doesn’t hit back.

The changes I would like to see for sorc are improvements to the storm skill line, including overload, so that non-pet sorc with some combination of lightning, dark magic, and/or weapon skills does as much damage as pet sorc, which can remain the easier but not more powerful option for PVE dps. But sorc should not HAVE to slot atro to be useful for group PVE dps. Overload has been a useless and thus unused skill for at least as long as I’ve been playing the game (since mid 2019).