What's your stance on this?

Satis1994b14a_ESO

So this might just be another rant about the pay to play system that's being implemented; however, I'd like to think how you guys feel about it.

For the record, I love TES series, love ESO (so far) and have no problem paying the $14.99 a month to enjoy this game.

(if you can't contribute to this discussion in a constructive and polite manner, don't bother, go be a troll somewhere else)

From what I've heard, on top of the $14.99 monthly subscription, an in-game store is suppose to be implemented. However, the store is suppose to contain "fun stuff" (Matt Firor in his interview with buffed.de); therefore, it is not going to affect game play in any way, shape or form. Is Zenimax this hungry for money?It's like they're trying to combine World of Warcraft's and Guild Wars' income syste ms and see where it takes them. I personally dislike having to pay for the "best looking items." I like when my characters look appropriate based on their content experience (best items in the game looking the most "badass" [for the lack of better word]); however, dropping hard earned cash just to achieve that great look seems quite steep. Don't you think, that a p2p system is implemented in games to avoid such situations? To simply avoid any kind of pay wall and have access to every piece of content the game has to offer. I would really like to hear from Zenimax themselves regarding this and hear their thought process behind this idea.

Enough of my thoughts, let me hear what you have to say. I understand that some of you will answer with posts such as:

1. If you don't like it, don't play it.
2. I will gladly spend more money for this game due to it's greatness.

Therefore, if you do answer in such manner, I'd like to hear why. Explain yourself.

Let it roll.

bluesodafizz

I agree with you. If there is a monthly fee I do not want there to be an in-game store with vanity items. The only reason I am even okay with the monthly fee is that I like the idea of everyone working to earn what they have so it means more (well, it means more to ME anyway).

I also just wanted to comment on what you said at the end of your post about people saying "if you don't like it, don't play it". That really annoys me too when I see as a response like that from people. Being unhappy with an aspect of the game and trying to discuss frustrations or alternatives on the forums is a great way to work with the developers and let them know how we feel. Slowly this communication between players and the dev team will improve and reflect the majority of the community within the game. I think it's great that people can come on here and talk about what they like and don't like and still play the game while it gets discussed and possibly changed. Please, keep posting your opinions and don't let other people get you down with their dismissive arguments.

Inactive Account

The store in question is for Vanity items. Just like IRL vanity costs real money. If you really want a vanity item then buy it, if you don't feel the need, than don't buy it.
As for the "Best looking" thing... Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so, it may look "The Best" to some, but it also may look butt ugly to others.
As for "Hungry for Money"... Eso is a game and it is a consumer product. Zenimax and Bethesda employees have put more than just time and effort into this game. From the looks of things they have put a lot of heart and soul into it as well, but this is still a product. It's underlying goal is to make a profit.
As long as the store sticks to the model currently in place ( vanity only, no advantage items) I support it.

Yasha

WoW also sells things like mounts so it is no different.

Sub-based mmos with high box prices are a total rip-off. You do not get basically a new game's worth of content every few months.

All the reasons that are used to justify having a sub can be achieved just through a box-price and vanity shop, without any pay-2-win element as has been successfully demonstrated in other games such as GW.

I see the "evil" or "money-grab" here more in the sub than a vanity/mount shop.

pysgod1978b14_ESO

I have no issues with vanity items. Now if they started offering weapons and armor for money then I'd have issues. Once a game starts selling equipment for money there is no longer a real need for crafting or questing. It becomes a game of buy PvP equipment and sit around on your duff ala ow though apparently some sort of half hearted effort is required.

Satis1994b14a_ESO

There's obvious games out there that sustain themselves from either the monthly subscription or the in-game store and they're making a fair share of cash. What makes this scenario different? It makes me feel as if the developers don't think they can break even with just the subscription; therefore, there's the decision to implement the in-game store along with monthly subscription.

With that in mind, it leads me to ask a more important question:

Do the developers think that their game is not good enough to earn millions of dollars just based off monthly subscriptions?

Give me thoughts on this.

Etchesketch

Letting people get stupid pets and mounts and such is fine. I just hope it doesn't take away time from the actual development of the game. I'd rather not see an in game store for a year or more.

Moyana

I think it is fine, if people want to splash out on vanity items and support ZoS with micro-transactions then i'm happy with it. It's when they start introducing game breaking items making it into a Pay to Win model (items which provide an unfair bonus to players for money) that I begin to have a problem.

Osi

No vanity items beyond

1) Pay for the ability to change character appearance
2) Change character name

Basically things you cannot do in the course of normal gameplay. They already have the horse and Imperial Edition upgrade; hopefully it doesn't go beyond that...

I prefer a sub system as opposed to a cash shop to fund the game. Just need to have the player base to keep it sustainable.

yotz.mivonks_ESO

I hate to bring up other games, but it's hard to show examples of where something has already worked otherwise.

Sony has a similar system in place for EQ2 if you maintain a gold account, which is the normal $14.99/month. There are some things you can buy in their store that help with experience and soloing, those things I could do without, so I did not buy them. The only impact those items had was making it easier and faster to reach max level. Those things also have no impact on group content.

Without a gold account you can also buy the unlocks to effectively be gold without paying a monthly sub, but it is far less cost effective than just maintaining the normal monthly fee, and is also not the point of this reply.

I am not saying I want this for this game, simply showing an example of a game that has had a similar system in place for several years successful. If it's done well I don't mind a vanity store, as long as it remains only cosmetic and doesn't make Mr. MoneyBags more effective in the end game.

Edit: clarification

Satis1994b14a_ESO

pysgod1978b14_ESO wrote: »

I have no issues with vanity items. Now if they started offering weapons and armor for money then I'd have issues. Once a game starts selling equipment for money there is no longer a real need for crafting or questing. It becomes a game of buy PvP equipment and sit around on your duff ala ow though apparently some sort of half hearted effort is required.

But don't you think that just by implementing the in-game store you already have the tools to offer game changing goods in the game? My worry is that during a holiday or a special event, there will be an option of buying a "tiny small item bag" which has a chance to drop this cool ring that doesn't affect the game play drastically, but it does affect it, even if it's even a small amount. And that's where I think it will become progressively worse.

Osi

Satis1994b14a_ESO wrote: »

pysgod1978b14_ESO wrote: »

I have no issues with vanity items. Now if they started offering weapons and armor for money then I'd have issues. Once a game starts selling equipment for money there is no longer a real need for crafting or questing. It becomes a game of buy PvP equipment and sit around on your duff ala ow though apparently some sort of half hearted effort is required.

But don't you think that just by implementing the in-game store you already have the tools to offer game changing goods in the game? My worry is that during a holiday or a special event, there will be an option of buying a "tiny small item bag" which has a chance to drop this cool ring that doesn't affect the game play drastically, but it does affect it, even if it's even a small amount. And that's where I think it will become progressively worse.

The slippery slope is a VERY real concern. Even the horse they already have the bonuses of the Imperial Edition could be the first steps down that slope.

mrowmrif2

I enjoy the world and the concept, the crafting is great and the progression is interesting and refreshing for an MMO... but the monthly payment will amount to $180 per year; I don't get why anyone would WANT to pay more for crap that just "looks neat" - but go for it if you want... If it does not affect game play or offer an in-game advantage to BUY rather than earn an item, then it doesn't bother me in the least. I don't have to buy anything if I don't want.

I'm just nervous that ESO is going to turn into WoW as more similarities between the two games are realized. Gameplay is already similar and deviates from "classic" Elder Scrolls a bit (inventory being based on space rather than weight, experience points rather than simply leveling off of skillups, etc.)... Is a card game on the way with rare vanity pets available exclusively in packs (that will be sold on ebay for $800)? The minute "the best items in the game" are obtained from instanced boss drops, I'm done. Guild/party drama go! It would be the same game with a different look, and that isn't why I preordered the Imperial Edition.

YourNameHere

I'm used to it in EQ2. You don't want anything in the store, don't buy it. Simple as that.

If they keep is fluff items there is nothing to worry about. But if they start putting items that could/should be able to get in game or craftable, then I'd get annoyed.

Yasha

Satis1994b14a_ESO wrote: »

There's obvious games out there that sustain themselves from either the monthly subscription or the in-game store and they're making a fair share of cash. What makes this scenario different? It makes me feel as if the developers don't think they can break even with just the subscription; therefore, there's the decision to implement the in-game store along with monthly subscription.

With that in mind, it leads me to ask a more important question:

Do the developers think that their game is not good enough to earn millions of dollars just based off monthly subscriptions?

Give me thoughts on this.

I don't understand your reasoning. They have a box price+sub model with some vanity/mounts in a cash shop exactly like WoW.

They could probably make a profit with just a sub. They could probably make a profit with just a box price +vanity store. They could probably make a profit with a f2p model.

They chose this model probably so they have enough resources to put a lot of work into the game and maximize profits.

Shubuta

Well if you were developing a game and wanted to decide a business model what would you do? Look at what's been most successful in the past. Two most successful methods? Monthly sub and extensive vanity store items at a very moderate price.

I support Zenimax in this decision.

jircris11

Honestly i do not mind the shop. I have played some games where the shop is slowly ruining the game, WoW for example lost my interest when i saw a max lvl character for 60 bucks in the shop. If its vanity things then it does not ruin the game. The sub fee as i see it is to help with production and server cost, the vanity shop it to grant a larger budget to produce said updates and such.

ManiacMcLaughton

I feel like the pay to play model is the model MMO's SHOULD follow provided they provide the content you expect in an MMO format. Every major MMO worth its salt IS STILL pay to play, and if you expect high quality gameplay/updates, expect to pay monthly.... otherwise its going to be constant content lockouts behind a paywall.

This also prevents a lot of "younger audience" from getting into the game, because they don't have a way to pay. I prefer this. Overall, it will decrease the number of people who play, but it will increase the quality as well.

Personally, its all plusses. If they don't deliver good content on a regular basis, it will not be... but if they can avoid the expansion pack every 6 months GW and GW2 have, it really all comes out the same in the end.

Satis1994b14a_ESO

Shubuta wrote: »

Well if you were developing a game and wanted to decide a business model what would you do? Look at what's been most successful in the past. Two most successful methods? Monthly sub and extensive vanity store items at a very moderate price.

I support Zenimax in this decision.

The vanity store usually turns around and bites us, players, in the butt, due to the fact that it becomes a tools that allows the company to distribute game changing items, if needed.

If the store was absent completely, then there's that one more step they have to take in order to sell game changing items in the game.

See where I'm kind of coming from? It is a very dangerous tool that has a HUGE potential to ruin the overall game experience for millions of people. Their obvious answer to this is probably: "Don't worry, we can handle it." The question is: can they?

And I personally think the answer here is a simple: no. Not because they're "bad people" (I guess you could say), but it's because they're human, and we humans are known to make greedy decisions.

Palmate

My take on this is it is a business, my hope at the end of the day is that the game will be popular, and the company will continue to invest money in new content, fixes, etc.

If allowing people to spend money to do that, more power to them. I have issues with the ability to buy success; like being able to buy crafting materials for USDs I think would be wrong. That said I have played in plenty of games where you can buy healing potions and other like items for cash and it didn't break the game.

At the end of the day ask yourself, is this hurting me? And is this really making the game less fun to play for me?

just my 2 cents.

Emerald_DragonWolf

I believe if people are patient enough, they will spread the word of how wonderful ESO really is. I mean I love the graphics, the quests, the ability to make your own armor and weapons, and definitely the exploring! Just Love it! And the price is what got me to play the game! I mean its pretty decent, especially for what you get in game. As far as the paying thing, I hope they would have the confidence enough to do well in the profit area without having the in-game store, but I don't think they are thinking they need the extra income by creating one for vanity items. I think it is more of extra cash deal, that could benefit for holiday bonus's or something extra special rather than breaking for their budget.

Now, as far as the in-game store goes, I hope they will only keep the vanity of the items for game play. If they did make special equipment for payers, it would be a great disadvantage in the pvp area, though I haven't played the pvp area yet, and not sure what the difference would be. Now having said that, if they dont' play pvp and just pve, I don't see why having items beyond vanity would be a problem. If someone wants to pay actual money for something that is up to them. I personally love to create my own armor and weapons.

Shimond

It'll depend on how much development they put into the store but what they're doing is not new. WOW has been doing subscription + store for years. So I guess you could say it's the 'norm'? Everyone else seems to think if WOW's doing it you should too at any rate :P

Brydion

I am unclear what your purpose for posting this question which has been asked countless times before in countless forums. The developers who put many millions of dollars into this project decided that they wanted to structure the game in that fashion. That is their right. So if you don't like that decision you can either chose to live with it or chose not to play the game. That is your right. What other kind of "answer" to your question do you think there is?

morgueanna

Here's how I see it:

The monthly fee is to keep the game updated and fresh. It's so they can add new content regularly, offer 24/7 support, and basically ensure that you want to come back month after month.

The cash shop is for all the little extra things that aren't necessary. I've seen people complain when vanity items are added to a game because they feel it 'takes away development time from real problems'. So now the devs are free to work on that side content without criticism, because it's content that is paid for and therefore 'worth' their time.

I have no idea at this point if I'll ever use the cash shop, but I don't oppose its implementation, even with the monthly fee, as it has no bearing on my game experience.

Shubuta

I agree if they start selling things other than straight pixels, anything with stats ect could ruin the game. But if they did their research they saw the bad decisions people have made with in game stores. Items too expensive, game breaking items, ect. From the rest of the product I have seen, Zenimax will make smart decisions with the store as well.

I feel like they pulled a good bit of combat from Dota 2, why wouldn't they take some tips on their store too?

Satis1994b14a_ESO

Brydion wrote: »

I am unclear what your purpose for posting this question which has been asked countless times before in countless forums. The developers who put many millions of dollars into this project decided that they wanted to structure the game in that fashion. That is their right. So if you don't like that decision you can either chose to live with it or chose not to play the game. That is your right. What other kind of "answer" to your question do you think there is?

I see you chose option number 1:

1. If you don't like it, don't play it.

But unlike you, if you scroll through the thread, there are some things that can be said about this topic. Not everybody was present when the "question which has been asked countless times before in countless forums" have been posted; therefore, I'm asking for more input regarding this. You're not required to answer or comment, you obviously chose to comment and made no benefit to this discussion what so ever.

BlackSparrow

Osi wrote: »

Satis1994b14a_ESO wrote: »

pysgod1978b14_ESO wrote: »

I have no issues with vanity items. Now if they started offering weapons and armor for money then I'd have issues. Once a game starts selling equipment for money there is no longer a real need for crafting or questing. It becomes a game of buy PvP equipment and sit around on your duff ala ow though apparently some sort of half hearted effort is required.

But don't you think that just by implementing the in-game store you already have the tools to offer game changing goods in the game? My worry is that during a holiday or a special event, there will be an option of buying a "tiny small item bag" which has a chance to drop this cool ring that doesn't affect the game play drastically, but it does affect it, even if it's even a small amount. And that's where I think it will become progressively worse.

The slippery slope is a VERY real concern. Even the horse they already have the bonuses of the Imperial Edition could be the first steps down that slope.

This.

I'm generally ok with vanity items in cash shop, though it is a bit ridiculous to have microtransactions in a sub game.

What I'm worried about is things that affect gameplay... they put an early-game horse and *an entire race* behind a pay gate (I.e., the Imperial Edition) right out of the gate. That is highly worrying. Philosophical reasons is the entire reason I didn't purchase the IE.

SmithNL

I agree with you

The subscription format is fine to me. It brings a lot of benefits to a game like great costumer support, proper servers and lots of updates. I also like the idea of supporting the developing team so they can keep doing what they do best without employees being fired because the studio had a rough month. It creates a steady money flow that is importent for the continued development of the game.

In game micro transactions bothers me. It is fine on free games to create income for the studio, but it is ridiculous to do it next to a monthly fee. I would much rather see the extra items to be dungeon rewards or whatever. That is just my opinion.

The sad thing is that these decisions are made by the publisher and not the developer. I really hope they pick up this forum post, because I am sure the game will receive an extreme amount of hate when this goes mainstream.

Just want to say I really love this game and I will keep playing it.

Smith

S1D3FX

@Satis1994b14a_ESO
So is it safe to assume the biggest issue here is other players being able to "look cool" without devoting the same amount of time to acquire "badass" gear that non-paying players have access to?

Since all of the items in the store shouldn't provide any form of advantage, what if they had 2 prices associated with all of the items in store? One for real cash and one for in game currency. In game wouldn't have to be limited to gold either; including raw material might make it interesting.

Satis1994b14a_ESO

SmithNL wrote: »

I would much rather see the extra items to be dungeon rewards or whatever. That is just my opinion.

This hits the spot.

Raice

I have hated F2P games since they were created. They are THE biggest scam on consumers of all time if you ask me. However, I would rather there be a Cash Shop in a Subscription game, than for a game to be F2P with a Cash Shop. Why?

1. I don't like the people who play in F2P games. They make for a very poor community that has zero care or loyalty about the game or the other players.

2. I don't like paying for someone else's right to vote. As someone who regularly participates in all monetary outlets a game offers, I pay the way for other people to play in a F2P game. I am someone who is in the minority. That means the majority of people playing the F2P game, is playing off my dollar. The problem here is that the developers develop what the majority of players want. Which means my voice isn't heard... even though I pay the bills.

3. If a Cash Shop is in a game that is already Subscription - at least everyone is paying their own way, which means everyone has an equal voice.

4. Because everyone is already supplying a monthly subscription - there would probably be less reason to price gouge on the Cash Shop.

5. It would also probably stop the Play Gating. Play Gating is where the game requires you to accomplish an impossibly difficult task in order to advance. It's not that the task is difficult, it's that it requires an enormous amount of time and energy. It could literally take the players months and months of grinding to afford a single item - of which is only 1 in a set of 5. But it's usually made "easy" because you can buy some sort of Boost Pack on the Cash Shop. Play Gating is this new wave of MMO garbage where you usually have to perform dailies in order to collect special tokens, but you're only allowed to obtain 5 tokens in a given week, even though there are 7 days in the week. You then trade 10 of those tokens in so that you can receive 1 ticket. And you need 15 Tickets in order to purchase 1 item from a gear set. And... the whole thing is a cheap way to drive you crazy enough so that you buy the booster pack that allows you to be able to get 2 extra tokens per daily or some such thing. The second that shows up in ESO... I will be very... very disappointed.

I don't necessarily mind Cash Shops. I mind F2P games that force you to participate in the Cash Shop.

However, ultimately, I would rather there just be a Subscription and be done with it all.