Where are all the children?

Elsonso

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

So. If there are people in the game who would make untoward representations involving children if children existed in game then perhaps adding children is the thing to do. If people then engage in such behaviors they can be promptly gotten rid of and the community is better as a whole without them. We should also then refer such persons to the authorities for investigation into lucid activities involving children. Seems to me that adding children in the game would be good for everyone.

The thing is that if they don't go to all the work to make children in the game (3d models, animations, voices, etc) then they don't have to spend money tracking down and banning, or reporting to law enforcement, the people being "untoward" with them.

Vaqual

Syldras wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

I can not say that I agree with branding the engagement with instinctive behaviour as cheap, though.

In my opinion, throwing a "cute animal" or a "helpless kid" into a story to conceal that it's otherwise mediocre, is (and same goes for the "sex sells" principle). And when the story itself is well-written, it doesn't neccessary need this addition.

What do you think about this story, by the way, if you have played it?
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Memory_Stone
It's a family story without the use of any child npc.

To get back to the main topic: I see that some people would like child npcs for immersion. Others don't care at all. And there are also a lot of people who feel really unconfortable with this for different reasons. Also, I think ZOS want to spare themselves the trouble of a "scandal". Imagine there were child npcs in the game; even if you couldn't attack them, there would be people who made it look like this with emotes. I'm sure, sooner or later someone would make a video of it, and some gaming website would use that for a scandal story. I really can understand that ZOS wants to avoid that. So in the end, I see more negative points about adding child npcs than positives, as good story telling is also possible without them.

I vaguely remember the quest being one of the better ones, but it has been a few years since I played it. I get what you are saying, but it feels a bit like serving only Pizza Margherita at the party because because someone might dislike the Salami.

Syldras

Vaqual wrote: »

I vaguely remember the quest being one of the better ones, but it has been a few years since I played it. I get what you are saying, but it feels a bit like serving only Pizza Margherita at the party because because someone might dislike the Salami.

That would be a good comparison if it was only a matter of personal taste, but unfortunately, it's more. No one will feel uncomfortable about someone interacting with a salami pizza the wrong way, no news website would make a scandal story out of it, and no one would think about informing the police if they see that happening. That would be the case with child npcs, though.

Vaqual

Syldras wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

I vaguely remember the quest being one of the better ones, but it has been a few years since I played it. I get what you are saying, but it feels a bit like serving only Pizza Margherita at the party because because someone might dislike the Salami.

That would be a good comparison if it was only a matter of personal taste, but unfortunately, it's more. No one will feel uncomfortable about someone interacting with a salami pizza the wrong way, no news website would make a scandal story out of it, and no one would think about informing the police if they see that happening. That would be the case with child npcs, though.

There are children in GW2 and LotRO and I have not heard anything bad.

Syldras

Vaqual wrote: »

There are children in GW2 and LotRO and I have not heard anything bad.

I don't know about other MMOs, but I remember some people made a scandal out of a Skyrim mod (not even the original game) that made every npc non-essential, so everyone could die (not only through murder by the player character, but also due to bandit or dragon attacks and every other kind of enemy npc), including quest npcs, pets and children - just everyone.

Vaqual

Syldras wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

There are children in GW2 and LotRO and I have not heard anything bad.

I don't know about other MMOs, but I remember some people made a scandal out of a Skyrim mod (not even the original game) that made every npc non-essential, so everyone could die (not only through murder by the player character, but also due to bandit or dragon attacks and every other kind of enemy npc), including quest npcs, pets and children - just everyone.

And that still doesn't sound really surprising or horrifying. By that standard the news should be age restricted.

SilverBride

No children. We've gotten by for 10 years without them and we don't need the controversy.

Syldras

Vaqual wrote: »

And that still doesn't sound really surprising or horrifying. By that standard the news should be age restricted.

Yes, that mod wasn't even targeted at child npcs specifically, it just made every npc un-essential without exception (which could be explained with realism/immersion, with dragon attacks becoming a danger for every living being and wiping out whole villages - I wouldn't need that, but if someone wanted that in their game, it would be an explanation I could understand), and still, people complained and made a huge topic out of it. I'm sure that game developers observe these kinds of news and reactions and consider them when it comes to whether including child npcs in their games or not. I don't think it's a coincidence that Skyrim had children and ESO has not. Technically, it wouldn't have been hard to implement them just as before.

ClowdyAllDay

Lets add children to our homes like we do with other house guests and then set them on a path?

ClowdyAllDay

Elsonso wrote: »

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

So. If there are people in the game who would make untoward representations involving children if children existed in game then perhaps adding children is the thing to do. If people then engage in such behaviors they can be promptly gotten rid of and the community is better as a whole without them. We should also then refer such persons to the authorities for investigation into lucid activities involving children. Seems to me that adding children in the game would be good for everyone.

The thing is that if they don't go to all the work to make children in the game (3d models, animations, voices, etc) then they don't have to spend money tracking down and banning, or reporting to law enforcement, the people being "untoward" with them.

i'm just pointing out the bennies people might not have considered.

Araneae6537

Syldras wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

And that still doesn't sound really surprising or horrifying. By that standard the news should be age restricted.

Yes, that mod wasn't even targeted at child npcs specifically, it just made every npc un-essential without exception (which could be explained with realism/immersion, with dragon attacks becoming a danger for every living being and wiping out whole villages - I wouldn't need that, but if someone wanted that in their game, it would be an explanation I could understand), and still, people complained and made a huge topic out of it. I'm sure that game developers observe these kinds of news and reactions and consider them when it comes to whether including child npcs in their games or not. I don't think it's a coincidence that Skyrim had children and ESO has not. Technically, it wouldn't have been hard to implement them just as before.

That makes sense. I don’t think I’d want to play that way unless I also had the ability to save them all! In any case, that hardly seems scandalous or in any way newsworthy. First-world fake outrage I guess.

If one was going to be upset about anything in the Elder Scrolls, I should think it would be the Dark Brotherhood since they’re a murder cult more than targeted assassins (at least how their portrayed in ESO — I had nothing to do with them beyond eliminating them when I could in the single-player games). If the DB was going to be in ESO, I think it shouldn’t be allowed in the open, mostly because it’s too bizarre to have the other NPCs have no reaction a dead body.

I’m quite neutral on children being added to ESO or not. I don’t feel it would add much — things like greater player agency and dialogue choices (even ones that changed the tone of the conversation and not even any outcome) would do a LOT more to increase my engagement with the quest and characters! New models, new voice acting, new animations — no, I don’t see that adding children would be worth it at all. That said, I’m baffled at the people so strongly opposed to it — they’re all NPCs — not even an AI behind them. Your character could continue doing what they do.

Vaqual

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

And that still doesn't sound really surprising or horrifying. By that standard the news should be age restricted.

Yes, that mod wasn't even targeted at child npcs specifically, it just made every npc un-essential without exception (which could be explained with realism/immersion, with dragon attacks becoming a danger for every living being and wiping out whole villages - I wouldn't need that, but if someone wanted that in their game, it would be an explanation I could understand), and still, people complained and made a huge topic out of it. I'm sure that game developers observe these kinds of news and reactions and consider them when it comes to whether including child npcs in their games or not. I don't think it's a coincidence that Skyrim had children and ESO has not. Technically, it wouldn't have been hard to implement them just as before.

That makes sense. I don’t think I’d want to play that way unless I also had the ability to save them all! In any case, that hardly seems scandalous or in any way newsworthy. First-world fake outrage I guess.

If one was going to be upset about anything in the Elder Scrolls, I should think it would be the Dark Brotherhood since they’re a murder cult more than targeted assassins (at least how their portrayed in ESO — I had nothing to do with them beyond eliminating them when I could in the single-player games). If the DB was going to be in ESO, I think it shouldn’t be allowed in the open, mostly because it’s too bizarre to have the other NPCs have no reaction a dead body.

I’m quite neutral on children being added to ESO or not. I don’t feel it would add much — things like greater player agency and dialogue choices (even ones that changed the tone of the conversation and not even any outcome) would do a LOT more to increase my engagement with the quest and characters! New models, new voice acting, new animations — no, I don’t see that adding children would be worth it at all. That said, I’m baffled at the people so strongly opposed to it — they’re all NPCs — not even an AI behind them. Your character could continue doing what they do.

The sad part about player agency is that the devs would basically be digging their own grave, as Swtor has shown. For every branching decision you either have to never look back at any of the consequences outside of the specific storyline, retcon the hell out of your "non-canon" decisions or be forced to provide exponentially increasing dialogue options with every consecutive story. It is maybe doable on a certain scale, but this is really more suited to more finite RPG formats, less so for MMOs. Sure, it would be cooler for the player, but the charm wears off once you see your choices invalidated later due to logistical constraints.

Araneae6537

Vaqual wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

And that still doesn't sound really surprising or horrifying. By that standard the news should be age restricted.

Yes, that mod wasn't even targeted at child npcs specifically, it just made every npc un-essential without exception (which could be explained with realism/immersion, with dragon attacks becoming a danger for every living being and wiping out whole villages - I wouldn't need that, but if someone wanted that in their game, it would be an explanation I could understand), and still, people complained and made a huge topic out of it. I'm sure that game developers observe these kinds of news and reactions and consider them when it comes to whether including child npcs in their games or not. I don't think it's a coincidence that Skyrim had children and ESO has not. Technically, it wouldn't have been hard to implement them just as before.

That makes sense. I don’t think I’d want to play that way unless I also had the ability to save them all! In any case, that hardly seems scandalous or in any way newsworthy. First-world fake outrage I guess.

If one was going to be upset about anything in the Elder Scrolls, I should think it would be the Dark Brotherhood since they’re a murder cult more than targeted assassins (at least how their portrayed in ESO — I had nothing to do with them beyond eliminating them when I could in the single-player games). If the DB was going to be in ESO, I think it shouldn’t be allowed in the open, mostly because it’s too bizarre to have the other NPCs have no reaction a dead body.

I’m quite neutral on children being added to ESO or not. I don’t feel it would add much — things like greater player agency and dialogue choices (even ones that changed the tone of the conversation and not even any outcome) would do a LOT more to increase my engagement with the quest and characters! New models, new voice acting, new animations — no, I don’t see that adding children would be worth it at all. That said, I’m baffled at the people so strongly opposed to it — they’re all NPCs — not even an AI behind them. Your character could continue doing what they do.

The sad part about player agency is that the devs would basically be digging their own grave, as Swtor has shown. For every branching decision you either have to never look back at any of the consequences outside of the specific storyline, retcon the hell out of your "non-canon" decisions or be forced to provide exponentially increasing dialogue options with every consecutive story. It is maybe doable on a certain scale, but this is really more suited to more finite RPG formats, less so for MMOs. Sure, it would be cooler for the player, but the charm wears off once you see your choices invalidated later due to logistical constraints.

I thought most of the class questlines were amazing and the choices and their outcomes were confined to your own character’s storyline as far as I recall. Perhaps what you refer to occurred in a later expansion? In any case, I just wish to have greater range to define my character in ESO, not change the entire direction of a story, and I do very much enjoy the side quests as there are in Summerset for instance that give you some agency in their outcome. It’s fine that they are smaller stories with characters and places not seen again. I would rather that and the introduction of new characters, rather than bring back a character such as Eveli, who should have changed one way or another during the course of the Orsinium main quest line, only to have any character growth invalidated.

AScarlato

SilverBride wrote: »

No children. We've gotten by for 10 years without them and we don't need the controversy.

Children were in Baldur's Gate 3, and they could all die throughout the story. I don't really recall seeing any controversy.

Are we still in an era where children in games would be big news?

AScarlato

Syldras wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

And the fact that we can craft things like this:

is wierd and creepy to say the least.

Who ever said this was for humans? It's for dogs.

My Ezabi would love such a thing. Cradles for Alfiq, clearly.

Aliniel

It's fairly simple to forbid attacking children if they were added.

The main reason they are not in game, in my opinion, is way more simple. Adding children requires special assets: models, textures, voice acting, behaviour scrips, and all that for every single race and both male and female. And then there's the question of how old should the children be? Babies? 3-year-old? 5-year old? 10-year-old? Teenagers? Each age category requires separate assets. And children assets would not be used as much as adult assets which you get as enemies and NPCs all over the place.

The complexity is simply too much.

Mascen

Syldras wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

I'm sure it has something to do with that one guy who collects donations for the "war orphans" every new life festival. I never trusted him. >_> <_< >_>

Maybe it's a huge misunderstanding and in the Altmer language, "orphan" refers to everyone whose parents have already died (which might apply to, for example, old guys asking for orphan donations).

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

I find it disturbing that so many people are fixated on this. (your thread is far from being the first on the topic, OP.)
This isn't a Sims game; it doesn't have to be a direct analog of real-life.

They always ask for children, but I rarely see people suggesting an update that requires the player character to use toilets - for realism and immersion!!

Regarding the toilet situation, well theres actually an interesting story behind that. Y'see toilets as we know them are more of a relatively new invention as far as human history goes. For the longest time, we either used pit latrines or chamberpots. Which going by the wide variety of pottery observed in NPC houses, can be inferred as chamber pots.

And you dont even wanna know what various people used before toilet paper was invented

Syldras

Mascen wrote: »

Regarding the toilet situation, well theres actually an interesting story behind that. Y'see toilets as we know them are more of a relatively new invention as far as human history goes. For the longest time, we either used pit latrines or chamberpots. Which going by the wide variety of pottery observed in NPC houses, can be inferred as chamber pots.

Ancient Rome:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ostia-Toilets.JPG


My comment was not about not having toilets in ESO, though, but about the need of the player character to use one. I never see people wishing for something like that for immersion (I don't need it either, in case you wonder), although that would also be realistic.

Mascen wrote: »

And you dont even wanna know what various people used before toilet paper was invented

Leaves, grass, tree bark, old cloth, natural sponges.

Pixiepumpkin

World of Warcraft has childrens week. You run an orpan around to see stuff. Its pretty fun. No reason something like that can't exist in ESO. It's innocent and non-intrusive to the community at large.

AScarlato

Aliniel wrote: »

It's fairly simple to forbid attacking children if they were added.

The main reason they are not in game, in my opinion, is way more simple. Adding children requires special assets: models, textures, voice acting, behaviour scrips, and all that for every single race and both male and female. And then there's the question of how old should the children be? Babies? 3-year-old? 5-year old? 10-year-old? Teenagers? Each age category requires separate assets. And children assets would not be used as much as adult assets which you get as enemies and NPCs all over the place.

The complexity is simply too much.

This is probably the actual reason. Though it does diminish the game world not having any at all.

I'm pretty sure all the MMOs I've played have had children - from GW2, FFXIV, even Black Desert has child characters. I think EQ2 had some children as well. This is probably an anomaly for me to not have any around, which feels odd given the focus on storytelling and world building.

JustLovely

Got no kids in real life, don't need them in game either.

Vaqual

JustLovely wrote: »

Got no kids in real life, don't need them in game either.

I don't have a horse in real life.

Syldras

Vaqual wrote: »

I don't have a horse in real life.

The question is not whether you have one, but whether you want one. There are many people who don't want or need horses, kids, a cat, an own car, a ficus tree or whatever.

kinguardian

I personally would like it if there were children in the game.
Some kids running around or a family in a house together just normal stuff.
I like the immersion and it makes sense because npc's talk about their families, spouses and children.

Like said before just make it so you cannot hurt and kill from them.

Syldras

They're all gone. I saw the culprit myself. It was a Breton with a pipe.

I_killed_Vivec

Introduce children, people will ask "Where are the babies?".

Introduce babies, people will ask "Where are the pregnant women?".

Introduce pregnant women, people will ask "How did they get pregnant?"...

And all of a sudden you're in a completely different game!

reazea

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Introduce children, people will ask "Where are the babies?".

Introduce babies, people will ask "Where are the pregnant women?".

Introduce pregnant women, people will ask "How did they get pregnant?"...

And all of a sudden you're in a completely different game!

....and the RP population will explode.

SilverBride

No children. That would open up a can of worms I don't think they would want to deal with.

Pixiepumpkin

There would be no can of worms to deal with. Other games have implemented children in an a fun and innocent way and worked out well in game.

See Childrens Week in World of Warcraft.

https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/world-of-warcraft/22965339/children-s-week-has-arrived

SilverBride

I've heard zone chat. There would be a can of worms.