What do you feel when you have to kick players or leave a group?

mocap

Another problem is that new players, for some reason, afraid to say in chat that they don't know mechanics.

I remember a couple of times (in my time) I wrote in chat that I do not know mechanics and asked to explain only critical/oneshot parts. And I was always explained. Now the players have gone some what cowardly or something. It's definitely not the right direction.

Soarora

mocap wrote: »

Another problem is that new players, for some reason, afraid to say in chat that they don't know mechanics.

I remember a couple of times (in my time) I wrote in chat that I do not know mechanics and asked to explain only critical/oneshot parts. And I was always explained. Now the players have gone some what cowardly or something. It's definitely not the right direction.

Totally agree. I always thank people for telling me and that I’m happy to help. If they don’t then I tell them to tell people. Can be worried they’ll get kicked for not knowing mechs or yelled at for not knowing mechs but it’s very obvious they don’t know mechs anyways… just tell us at the beginning.

DarcyMardin

I would only vote to kick jerks who race ahead of the group, leaving their team members in the dust. Or the ones who ignore requests to do the dungeon quest.

In my experience with the game, most members of the general population don't have super elite DPS. Many are still learning. I prefer groups who work together for a common goal to those dominated by one person who has their own personal agenda for the dungeon.

Vulkunne

DarcyMardin wrote: »

I would only vote to kick jerks who race ahead of the group, leaving their team members in the dust. Or the ones who ignore requests to do the dungeon quest.

In my experience with the game, most members of the general population don't have super elite DPS. Many are still learning. I prefer groups who work together for a common goal to those dominated by one person who has their own personal agenda for the dungeon.

As you say, "many are still learning" and "most members of the general population don't have 'super' 'elite' DPS". It seems there are some strong feelings being expressed here which is understandable as there are some things I also feel strongly about.

And then you also say that you, "prefer groups who work together for a common goal to those dominated by one person who has their own personal agenda for the dungeon". Now my purpose here is not to try and have someone explain themselves.

However, @DarcyMardin, what I would ask for you to please keep in mind is this... Two things. One, the reason that many times not just 'one person' but the group 'itself' is there to run the dungeon, is in pursuit of a goal or some part of an agenda that is personal to 'them'. Yeah. It's not necessarily just one person, its the group being there for reasons of their own choosing and if we really intend to work as a Team and enable true collaboration, then while our agenda may be different the common goal, completing the run, needs to be everyone's agenda without prejudice or judgement or further shenanigans like people not staying together, etc.

Secondly, it's true that many are still learning and the gen pop is not always going to be prepared (or best equipped) for the run. Therefore, people like me carry them. In saying that I'm not playing a role, I'm not better than anyone else however I am being elitist because that conclusion is inevitable in this situation. Therefore, I offer that the elites out there carry the masses. And you know what, I've been doing this for years, got no problem with it and I understand their situation as you do. And I don't judge them for not having it together or persecute folks for not playing the game to my expectations.

Its just regardless of those who may have wronged us previously, the ultimate wrong is becoming part of the problem ourselves. Which I'm not saying that anyone here is however many of us have worked hard to help in ways that we can, which includes carries, and it includes working with others who may not share our personal agenda. And when I mention 'carries' I really mean 'free carries'. In other words, I can see everyone is trying and am just trying to get us finished with the run, I never charge people or kick people for not being 'the best'.

Muizer

mocap wrote: »

Another problem is that new players, for some reason, afraid to say in chat that they don't know mechanics.

Despite having been in the game from the start, I've only recently started doing group content. My experience is I don't get the time to write anything at all before everybody runs off.

Soarora

Muizer wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

Another problem is that new players, for some reason, afraid to say in chat that they don't know mechanics.

Despite having been in the game from the start, I've only recently started doing group content. My experience is I don't get the time to write anything at all before everybody runs off.

I’d still take the time to type and then try to catch up, especially in vet DLC (where everyone should stop before bosses until all 4 people are there anyways or else bad things happen).

Northwold

Not to be funny but if you're treating a game as a chore list to get through as quickly as possible maybe it's time to take a break from the game?

JanTanhide

I hope I never have a run with you. Such a negative person. Kicking your guild members because you think they can't handle a dungeon or arena. Wow. Just wow.

KlauthWarthog

If I have reason to believe a run will not work, I just say so in chat, then leave.
I do not have, and do not want to have, control over other people's behavior. So I have no reason to get worked up by it.

Necrotech_Master

mocap wrote: »

Another problem is that new players, for some reason, afraid to say in chat that they don't know mechanics.

I remember a couple of times (in my time) I wrote in chat that I do not know mechanics and asked to explain only critical/oneshot parts. And I was always explained. Now the players have gone some what cowardly or something. It's definitely not the right direction.

yeah, there was one time i loaded in as a tank in a normal fang lair with a group of low cps (under 300 per person)

a few of them said they did need the quest, so i figured i also should ask if they knew any of the mechanics and all 3 of them said they had never been in the dungeon before, so i took a couple of minutes before each boss to explain key mechanics

i could also tell they were a bit new because they had trouble outright burning through the caluurion fight (not enough dps to skip the mechanics lol), but we made it through and all of them thanked at the end for the patience and detailed mechanics walkthrough lol

Nihilr

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

... they had trouble outright burning through the caluurion fight (not enough dps to skip the mechanics lol), but we made it through and all of them

(This response is not directed at you personally, "you" means "anyone reading this", below this sentence.)

Unpopular opinion in a sea of vocal toxic players I've seen over the years: burning through any mechanics should *not* be a standard expectation. If the expectation is to burn through mechanics in every dungeon run, then the game needs to be rebalanced in some way. Either:

1.) The players are putting out way too much damage for the level of dungeon they are playing. [Burning through veteran hardmode? Then you've won the game. Most other players haven't, and this will not be the standard for most players you play with-- unless you want the divergeance of player skill to further and have more trouble finding reliable groups. You will end up like OP. Just because your PC can handle all the pings, all the graphics, and still you can animation cancel. Not everyone has your same powerful setup.]
or
2.) The boss' health is too high for people's patience, or there are too many forced mechanics. The Dwarven Centurion boss in Frostvault comes to mind. [Every 20% health increment? Really? I'd rather there be a switch combination to shut off the lasers than just waiting for the lasers to stop. Meanwhile, most bosses don't have enough 1 or 2 "pause" mechanics are health increments, and people just cheese/burn through everything, then there's a balance problem.]
or
3.) The build they are running does too much damage for the current game balance.
or
4.) The game relies too heavily still on animation cancelling (which the majority of players are not willing to master) for damage and once all combat animations have to complete, the game will finally be balance-able. [Again, abusing your controls (Mouse, Keyboard, Controller) to the point of physically breaking because you have to click twice as fast in order to play the game to the highest standard is tiring. Even playing 1-bar bash-cancel builds are getting tiring. I shouldn't have to LA-Ability-Bash-repeat for every fight. I know channeled builds don't allow for animation cancelling and do plenty of damage also, but this goes against the "play how you want" motto.]

Soarora

Nihilr wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

... they had trouble outright burning through the caluurion fight (not enough dps to skip the mechanics lol), but we made it through and all of them

(This response is not directed at you personally, "you" means "anyone reading this", below this sentence.)

Unpopular opinion in a sea of vocal toxic players I've seen over the years: burning through any mechanics should *not* be a standard expectation. If the expectation is to burn through mechanics in every dungeon run, then the game needs to be rebalanced in some way. Either:

1.) The players are putting out way too much damage for the level of dungeon they are playing. [Burning through veteran hardmode? Then you've won the game. Most other players haven't, and this will not be the standard for most players you play with-- unless you want the divergeance of player skill to further and have more trouble finding reliable groups. You will end up like OP. Just because your PC can handle all the pings, all the graphics, and still you can animation cancel. Not everyone has your same powerful setup.]
or
2.) The boss' health is too high for people's patience, or there are too many forced mechanics. The Dwarven Centurion boss in Frostvault comes to mind. [Every 20% health increment? Really? I'd rather there be a switch combination to shut off the lasers than just waiting for the lasers to stop. Meanwhile, most bosses don't have enough 1 or 2 "pause" mechanics are health increments, and people just cheese/burn through everything, then there's a balance problem.]
or
3.) The build they are running does too much damage for the current game balance.
or
4.) The game relies too heavily still on animation cancelling (which the majority of players are not willing to master) for damage and once all combat animations have to complete, the game will finally be balance-able. [Again, abusing your controls (Mouse, Keyboard, Controller) to the point of physically breaking because you have to click twice as fast in order to play the game to the highest standard is tiring. Even playing 1-bar bash-cancel builds are getting tiring. I shouldn't have to LA-Ability-Bash-repeat for every fight. I know channeled builds don't allow for animation cancelling and do plenty of damage also, but this goes against the "play how you want" motto.]

It's not really an expectation but rather typical. Fang lair is an old dungeon and with power creep (which is not the fault of the players bringing too much damage to the content but rather the content is not prepared for current damage, which is fine because it provides a ladder for people to move through content until they get to the current level of damage) most people (even pug groups) can burn right through all the mechanics during caalurion. Thus, it has become the norm. Anything under the norm for older content (since newer is built around the power creep, below normal may result in a failed dps check) isn't necessarily bad-- it just means you have to do mechanics. Though it can be a problem in fights where the norm has been burn for so long people don't even know the mechanics. This happens in MoS with the spriggan boss, people don't know to pick up the seeds and go to the aoes because they're used to burn strat and thus knowledgable and new players in the group both die to the boss.
For clarity, what I am considering the norm is what most pug groups can do in the vet queue. I solo queue as tank so any damage increase would be only because I give support (de-)buffs.
So, if you're having to do mechanics every time you do fang lair, don't try to do something like shipwright's regret (last boss can get real bad with low dps) or graven deep (2nd boss, burn strat is typical and a dps check, non-burn strat is difficult and in itself is a dps check. Last boss the flesh atro gets real annoying if damage is low) but if you're happy doing older content then by all means, there's nothing wrong with doing FL mechanics.

Necrotech_Master

Soarora wrote: »

Nihilr wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

... they had trouble outright burning through the caluurion fight (not enough dps to skip the mechanics lol), but we made it through and all of them

(This response is not directed at you personally, "you" means "anyone reading this", below this sentence.)

Unpopular opinion in a sea of vocal toxic players I've seen over the years: burning through any mechanics should *not* be a standard expectation. If the expectation is to burn through mechanics in every dungeon run, then the game needs to be rebalanced in some way. Either:

1.) The players are putting out way too much damage for the level of dungeon they are playing. [Burning through veteran hardmode? Then you've won the game. Most other players haven't, and this will not be the standard for most players you play with-- unless you want the divergeance of player skill to further and have more trouble finding reliable groups. You will end up like OP. Just because your PC can handle all the pings, all the graphics, and still you can animation cancel. Not everyone has your same powerful setup.]
or
2.) The boss' health is too high for people's patience, or there are too many forced mechanics. The Dwarven Centurion boss in Frostvault comes to mind. [Every 20% health increment? Really? I'd rather there be a switch combination to shut off the lasers than just waiting for the lasers to stop. Meanwhile, most bosses don't have enough 1 or 2 "pause" mechanics are health increments, and people just cheese/burn through everything, then there's a balance problem.]
or
3.) The build they are running does too much damage for the current game balance.
or
4.) The game relies too heavily still on animation cancelling (which the majority of players are not willing to master) for damage and once all combat animations have to complete, the game will finally be balance-able. [Again, abusing your controls (Mouse, Keyboard, Controller) to the point of physically breaking because you have to click twice as fast in order to play the game to the highest standard is tiring. Even playing 1-bar bash-cancel builds are getting tiring. I shouldn't have to LA-Ability-Bash-repeat for every fight. I know channeled builds don't allow for animation cancelling and do plenty of damage also, but this goes against the "play how you want" motto.]

It's not really an expectation but rather typical. Fang lair is an old dungeon and with power creep (which is not the fault of the players bringing too much damage to the content but rather the content is not prepared for current damage, which is fine because it provides a ladder for people to move through content until they get to the current level of damage) most people (even pug groups) can burn right through all the mechanics during caalurion. Thus, it has become the norm. Anything under the norm for older content (since newer is built around the power creep, below normal may result in a failed dps check) isn't necessarily bad-- it just means you have to do mechanics. Though it can be a problem in fights where the norm has been burn for so long people don't even know the mechanics. This happens in MoS with the spriggan boss, people don't know to pick up the seeds and go to the aoes because they're used to burn strat and thus knowledgable and new players in the group both die to the boss.
For clarity, what I am considering the norm is what most pug groups can do in the vet queue. I solo queue as tank so any damage increase would be only because I give support (de-)buffs.
So, if you're having to do mechanics every time you do fang lair, don't try to do something like shipwright's regret (last boss can get real bad with low dps) or graven deep (2nd boss, burn strat is typical and a dps check, non-burn strat is difficult and in itself is a dps check. Last boss the flesh atro gets real annoying if damage is low) but if you're happy doing older content then by all means, there's nothing wrong with doing FL mechanics.

shipwrights on normal isnt too bad (i normally "learn" new dungeons by soloing them on normal with my main (tank with ~8-10k dps), which now also has a dps companion to help out a little)

zos does a pretty good job overall of balancing dungeons to be completable on normal, even if its a slog, as long as there is no ramping dmg

the fight with caluurion for example, has a slowly ramping dmg (i think he has an enrage that stacks over time as long as relics are active) along with the additional effects of the relics themselves and the extra adds

Amottica

Fortunately, I do not have issues with dungeon completion when forming a group from my guilds. Even with my social guild, we clear dungeons just fine but I also know to set different expectations. I also, as noted many times here, do not put anything in this game anymore as the experience with GF groups was abysmal due to low DPS and far too often players not noticing mechanics.

Before I started running exclusively with guilds and friends, I did have an experience with a low CP player who would start the fights even though we knew we had a group member who did not know the fights and everyone knew we wanted to tell him about the mechanics beforehand. I told the group it was either me or the jerk of a player and they chose to kick that player.

Did I feel bad? Ofc not. They got what they deserved and their hate whispers were as hilarious as they were petty.

Now that I only run with guilds and friends we occasionally pug an open spot. It has never been an issue even when their damage was low or they kept dying due to obvious mechanics. We have always been able to carry them and figure it is a learning experience since they see what can be done.

We have only kicked players who were jerks and continued to be jerks after we asked them to cease whatever they were doing.

Do we feel bad? Ofc not. When in a group it is not about one person. It is about the entire group and no one should have to deal with self-centered selfish players.

Soarora

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Nihilr wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

... they had trouble outright burning through the caluurion fight (not enough dps to skip the mechanics lol), but we made it through and all of them

(This response is not directed at you personally, "you" means "anyone reading this", below this sentence.)

Unpopular opinion in a sea of vocal toxic players I've seen over the years: burning through any mechanics should *not* be a standard expectation. If the expectation is to burn through mechanics in every dungeon run, then the game needs to be rebalanced in some way. Either:

1.) The players are putting out way too much damage for the level of dungeon they are playing. [Burning through veteran hardmode? Then you've won the game. Most other players haven't, and this will not be the standard for most players you play with-- unless you want the divergeance of player skill to further and have more trouble finding reliable groups. You will end up like OP. Just because your PC can handle all the pings, all the graphics, and still you can animation cancel. Not everyone has your same powerful setup.]
or
2.) The boss' health is too high for people's patience, or there are too many forced mechanics. The Dwarven Centurion boss in Frostvault comes to mind. [Every 20% health increment? Really? I'd rather there be a switch combination to shut off the lasers than just waiting for the lasers to stop. Meanwhile, most bosses don't have enough 1 or 2 "pause" mechanics are health increments, and people just cheese/burn through everything, then there's a balance problem.]
or
3.) The build they are running does too much damage for the current game balance.
or
4.) The game relies too heavily still on animation cancelling (which the majority of players are not willing to master) for damage and once all combat animations have to complete, the game will finally be balance-able. [Again, abusing your controls (Mouse, Keyboard, Controller) to the point of physically breaking because you have to click twice as fast in order to play the game to the highest standard is tiring. Even playing 1-bar bash-cancel builds are getting tiring. I shouldn't have to LA-Ability-Bash-repeat for every fight. I know channeled builds don't allow for animation cancelling and do plenty of damage also, but this goes against the "play how you want" motto.]

It's not really an expectation but rather typical. Fang lair is an old dungeon and with power creep (which is not the fault of the players bringing too much damage to the content but rather the content is not prepared for current damage, which is fine because it provides a ladder for people to move through content until they get to the current level of damage) most people (even pug groups) can burn right through all the mechanics during caalurion. Thus, it has become the norm. Anything under the norm for older content (since newer is built around the power creep, below normal may result in a failed dps check) isn't necessarily bad-- it just means you have to do mechanics. Though it can be a problem in fights where the norm has been burn for so long people don't even know the mechanics. This happens in MoS with the spriggan boss, people don't know to pick up the seeds and go to the aoes because they're used to burn strat and thus knowledgable and new players in the group both die to the boss.
For clarity, what I am considering the norm is what most pug groups can do in the vet queue. I solo queue as tank so any damage increase would be only because I give support (de-)buffs.
So, if you're having to do mechanics every time you do fang lair, don't try to do something like shipwright's regret (last boss can get real bad with low dps) or graven deep (2nd boss, burn strat is typical and a dps check, non-burn strat is difficult and in itself is a dps check. Last boss the flesh atro gets real annoying if damage is low) but if you're happy doing older content then by all means, there's nothing wrong with doing FL mechanics.

shipwrights on normal isnt too bad (i normally "learn" new dungeons by soloing them on normal with my main (tank with ~8-10k dps), which now also has a dps companion to help out a little)

zos does a pretty good job overall of balancing dungeons to be completable on normal, even if its a slog, as long as there is no ramping dmg

the fight with caluurion for example, has a slowly ramping dmg (i think he has an enrage that stacks over time as long as relics are active) along with the additional effects of the relics themselves and the extra adds

Oh yeah, normal isn't bad, my comments are all towards vet.

ClowdyAllDay

How do i feel about it?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7dPqrmDWxs

ClowdyAllDay

i mean might as well embrace it huh?

wilykcat

I don't like it when I'm kicked from a dungeon group. So I decide not to kick another from a dungeon group.

El_Borracho

I don't leave often, but when I do, its because its interminably long, a player or players refuse to stop doing the wrong thing even after being told they are wrong, or its because the group as a whole is just not ready (like VDSA). As for kicking, I'm not going to be the lone holdout if 2 others want a player gone in a dungeon.

But to get to the experience @Parasaurolophus had, there are some dungeons I don't expect to get hard mode on in a pug. DLC dungeons, nope. Banished Cells 2, Crypt of Hearts 2, and Wayrest Sewers 2 are the 3 biggest offenders of the base dungeons as they require something other than reading a scroll and players either burn down the ghosts (Crypt) or daedroth (Banished) or don't kill enough zombies (Wayrest). Darkshade 2 is the other as there are still players who can't figure out not to stand in poison or fire.

As for trials, aside from VHRC and VAA, be prepared for a trial to take over an hour to complete through group finder. VASHM and VDSA are pug killers. VKA, VRG, and VHOF are not far behind. VSE and VCR are doable with a group willing to listen. VMOL and VSS are hit or miss, typically with the first boss giving you an indicator of your future success. Even VSO can be a nightmare, which baffles me as its been out as long as VHRC and VAA, which most players can do in their sleep. Patience is mandatory with the trials GF. Usually not leaving unless something in real life pops up

Anifaas

Scyware wrote: »

Better get used to kicking people. I feel like the only people that do end-game content nowadays do it for the achievement reward at the end (skin, mount, personality). All the smart people that knew what was going on left when they released update 35 (including me).

End-game is dead, get a core team and do not EVER invite randoms.

I find this very frustrating. I've worked hard to learn my rotations, gear and understand mechanics. But I feel 1/2 the time I queue for veteran dungeons the queue takes so long that I end up leaving for another game or the dungeon falls apart in the first 5-10 minutes. Begging people in my guilds to join me is often a mixed bag as most only seem to want to do normal dungeons.

But then I hop on to WoW and within 10 minutes I've found a group for a reasonably tough (15+) Mythic plus dungeon and it usually goes smoothly. Which is great but playing ESO has led me to preferring its combat style over WoW's and I'd rather chain veteran dungeons all night that Mythic+. I've come to the conclusion that ESO is more a 'casual' game than a veteran game and I accept that and try to find the beauty in it. But it is frustrating and leaves me wanting more.

MidniteOwl1913

Echoing others the only time I vote to kick are non-team players. They run ahead, they a wave of trash mobs behind them, etc. "Tanks" and "healers" who don't even try and won't stay with the party.

If you are only interested in the rewards and not the content, maybe take a break for a while. Many people myself included enjoy dungeons. Sometimes everything comes together and we breeze through sometimes it's a slog, shugs, it's called random for a reason.

Being the healer I know how long it takes for a replacement, I only leave if it is clear that the group after wiping isn't learning. If after 2 or 3 times they are still trying the same thing and expecting different results I leave...

Callidus

Personal belief?

In a regular dungeon, if you are a "fake" tank or healer, fine, let people know. As a tank, have a taunt though, huh?

No, I don't fake queue for speed, but I understand why some people do, and in regular, as long as we all know in advance, we've got a choice to stay or go, and I'll usually stay because those dungeons are fairly easy. That said, if I know in advance I wont get a heal, then I'll pull a flex skill off my bar, and add a heal. Saves everyone some time.

For Veteran, not a big fan of the fake's there as much, but again, if you let everyone know at the start so they can make their own choice, I'm okay with that. Crypt of Hearts the other day, fake healer, told us, and I was fine, I can do that solo thanks to Pale Order, so I flip that on, and we roll. I had a recent queue for Veteran DOM, and the healer and tank say that neither is a real tank or healer, they don't have a taunt or a heal on their bar, but "we should be able to get thru this just fine" CP 300 on both, I bounced. Worth the penalty time to wait before queuing again. But that one did *** me off, they wasted my time, and made the decision for me that we should be okay, just so they could get a faster queue....that's not right.

So really? I feel like I've got an obligation to my potential groupmates, to do my job, be it DPS, heal, or tank, and be able to do all of them well enough to succeed. I should know the fights (meaning arena, trial, and Vet HM's) so I am not wasting their time. If that means 5 minutes of reading a guide before I queue, then that's what I need to do. Watch a video so I'm at least conversant? Better.

Time is valuable, and mine is just as valuable as yours. I'm not paying your monthly sub, and you aren't paying mine. So it's just a little mutual consideration. We've all been the noob, we've all jumped into something and didn't quite know what was up, so I don't mind being patient, my bigger issue is someone deciding the value of my time as being less important than the value of their own time.