Skill Bar, summoner concerns.

vnlouis

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO wrote: »

vnlouis wrote: »

Kind of breaks the philosophy of being able to build whatever build you want, though. Whats wrong with wanting have a build centered around having summoned pets? I don't think limiting your build to only having 3 buttons for active abilities because you chose to have pets is very fair as there is already a cost mechanism in place to make sure they aren't "free" abilities via the magika penalty while the pet is summoned.

In this game, a lot will be wrong with it in groups and high level. The ai is mediocre and includes no player controlability. Combine that with subpar dps and the summons are really poor decisions.

You're missing the point. I'm not arguing whether or not a summoner build is viable for end game content, I'm arguing that its no fun being limited to just a three button load out if you have 2 pets summoned. Whether or not they are powerful enough is another argument entirely. Right now I'm no where near end game, I'm interested in having a fun leveling experience building out a character of my choosing in the way I want to. I will worry about end game when I get there.

vnlouis

I think a possible solution would be to add a separate bar, that can only slot these kinds of toggle abilities, that way the extra slots cannot be used for active abilities and your semi-passive toggle abilities wont take up your normal slots. They could even add a skill point dump that allows you to unlock a third slot in you toggle ability bar but with the caveat that for every active toggle ability the percentage resource drain is increased. I think if they implemented something like this with a few added tweaks we would see much more varied builds and better depth in combat, last but not least it will definitely be more fun, i think.

Shaun98ca2

5 slots is is enough for EVERYBODY. ALL classes WANT more slots for this and that. EVERY ability placed on your bar is incredibly strong in its own way. While the summons themselves suck and need buffing you get 10% health regen per summon slotted.

Its all about choice 3 abilities is MORE than enough for a good DPS build. Plus I know people hate doing this but you can also use your weapon attacks as well as class abilities.

And Im glad people are realizing that its 5+1 and that weapon swaps are role changes not an extension of your current role. Its meant to be inconvenient cause its a role change. You can swap from DPS to healer in 2 seconds. Or DPS to tank.

vanity

Nugeneration wrote: »

That is the point of the way skill bars work. The design of the game is for you to plan and use different builds for trash, aoe, questing, PvP, bosses, etc. You can't by design and intention of the game excel at all aspects at once. You change and alternate your build based on your group make up, your intend role in the group (pure pewpewpew players will be extremely disappointed in end game dungeons if you are just trying to maximize dps since you need way more support in this game compared to many other mmo's)

That said don't go into this game with a min/max dps only build, or a build that covers a little in everything. You spread yourself too thin and end up being worse. Pick a role your group/team needs for that certain instance/fight/encounter and set both your action bars for it accordingly. This game is about adaptability and teamwork. By teamwork I am including adjusting your build around everyone else's you are grouped with to achieve maximum efficiency.

steinernein wrote: »

For a top player you certainly whine a lot and aren't willing to discuss anything, I know of some entitled actual top players in various communities but most of them are willing to discuss things, since - guess what - it is actually something to debate whether or not the current slots are sufficient for this game play (and they are).

It really boils down to what you think is irrelevant - preparation and analysis. Either adapt and find actual reasons as to why the current system doesn't work or leave.

Well so both of you know, I was saying there should at least be more 5 skill skill bars, as in a hot key to get you to a 3rd or 4th set so you don't have to keep remaking your skill bars.

So my reply to one of you is it just would be more convenient and not time consuming and it wouldn't harm anything. Additionally, don't tell me how to play the game, I have maximum utilization of all my builds for what I play.

And for the second person @steinernein, just *** off. No one asked for your opinion of me on this thread. That's not what the thread is about. That's not what any thread is about. So when you finally figure that out on forums let me know.

And some icing on the cake is your hypocrisy

"I know of some entitled actual top players in various communities but most of them are willing to discuss things"

'it is actually something to debate whether or not the current slots are sufficient for this game play (and they are)"

Doesn't sound much like you're interested in debating either since.... you obviously just think complaining about the skill bars is stupid. Which is why you're here to say so in the first place? How old are you 15?

ahampelb14_ESO

Let's agree they need to change something. Either buff the pets, remove the weapon swap delay, etc... pick something to adjust. As is, I think synergy is missing.

Victus

There have been plenty of threads already made about the number of skill slots available for use. If that is what this is boiling down to, then posting on those threads is encouraged. I personally have not made it to a high enough level yet to determine if I "need" more or not. At 15/16 I am already having to make some choices on what to put on what bars, as a DK Tank.

I think what other people are getting at is that if you want to play a pet class in this game, get used to having a skill slot taken up by the summons. If you want 2 pets active at once, yes you will only have 3+1 other skills to play with but guess what? You have 2 pets! I still get "all five" of my skill slots but don't have 2 pets running around helping me in combat. These are the choices we all have to make if we want to play and enjoy this game.

I believe some people are suggesting buffs to the pets (something that seems to be a reasonable request from what I have seen) are suggesting that to make others feel like it is *worth* the mana and slot cost to summon these pets. As some have said it might not be a "worth" thing, but a playstyle issue.

So with all that being said, it seems like in the interest of discussion, there are ultimately a few ways of responding to this issue with the summoner-type class:

-Due to the current game mechanics the summoner is not a viable/enjoyable class for me to play because the pets are weak/limited amount of skill slots we have to spend keeping a pet active
-Reaction could then be that "well, I just don't find this class to be enjoyable so I will look to play a different class/style or
-We need a couple more skill slots available to make the summoner more enjoyable to play because 1 or 2 will always be taken up by active toggles/summoned pets

I personally am not in favor of adding skill slots this early yet, and would rather people understand that given the current mechanics, it might not be an enjoyable class to play for them. You basically get a couple of active dots, aggro magnet, and HP regen while they are out, so IMO taking up 1 or 2 slots is just part of the tradeoff.

Shaun98ca2

ahampelb14_ESO wrote: »

Let's agree they need to change something. Either buff the pets, remove the weapon swap delay, etc... pick something to adjust. As is, I think synergy is missing.

I'd say the best option is to buff the pets.

Shaun98ca2

I also forgot to state that as a Summoner the pet icon needs indication that the pet is summoned till time expires or pet dies so you know to bring pet out again. I had this problem with the pet never knew when it was dead or alive till it was too late.

mcatchlovb16_ESO

Is there an addon you can get that will give you an extra bar?

Shaun98ca2

I think there is an addon that WONT give you an extra bar but will save templates for you.

Victus

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

I also forgot to state that as a Summoner the pet icon needs indication that the pet is summoned till time expires or pet dies so you know to bring pet out again. I had this problem with the pet never knew when it was dead or alive till it was too late.

Yeah it seems a lot of the tooltips could be updated to better reflect what the spell/ability does. I am in agreement with this!

Morgentis

I agree with Victus and Vanity.
It's ok to have 5x2 skills IMHO, however when you go for a new spell/ability, you do not know if this is going to be permanent - or not- when switching bar.

For instance, my mageLight will be turned off if I switch my action bar (spell is present in one bar only), whereas my surge spell, which boosts my weapon damage will stay turned on (whereas present in one bar only as well, not to mention I switch weapons b/w my 2 bars).

So it does not seem to make sense. I 1st realized this with my annulment shield, which stayed turned on on the switch (only present in 1 bar), but thought "ok, this is linked to my light armor, why not", but then with the surge...I do not understand why other spells do not stay active.

Ok for not having too much slots, but please, WHY cancel "SOME" of them when switching ?

@Zenimax : could you please answer that or work on updating the wording on the spells which kinda lack details about this ? Thank you.

Dhaktar

Currently a level 20 Sorcerer and Templar.
Yes, it's limiting but I find it a refreshing change over WoW where you got an infinite amount of customization and Pet control.

What I hated about all that control was that playing became a job. Heck, it took weeks alone to customize the UI, macros, rotation. WoW also died when they made flying common so there was no need to see the landscape.

This game is not for Min/Maxers. Just enjoy the journey.

Solomon_Cato

@Morgentis: I can see your confusion. It took me quite a while to thumb through which skills would persist or not (not including the pets, my opinion on pets is reserved to the fact that the buffs/cc that they offer are quite the trade off for losing a skill slot. If anything, they should be buffed instead of adding skill slots). Surge persists through weapon swap due to the fact that it has a timer on it as well as it is a class ability. I mention the fact that it is a class ability simply because the 2H ability Rally (Momentum) will NOT persist through weapon change since it is limited to the 2H only. For quite a while I seriously considered going with a 2H as my second weapon on my Sorc healer solely for this reason, thinking I could stack Surge and Momentum. Thanks to some research that planned got squashed real fast.

As far as Magelight goes it is just like the pet toggles. Basically, if it reduces your max magicka it must be slotted on both bars for it to persist. Given that though, if I were a destro staff Impulse spammer, I would most likely find a way to make this fit on my bar. Once completely leveled it gives 20% crit, that is a VERY generous amount to take on for the cost of only a skill slot, imho.

@Dhaktar: I complete agree with you, but also slightly disagree with you to a small degree (In regards to Min/Maxing). Sounds stupid, I know, but let me 'splain. It is hard to completely min/max a dedicated DPS character because it is my belief that everyone should slot at the least one CC skill on their bars, whether it is an interrupt, root, snare, etc. Generally for a dedicated DPS this comes at the cost of DPS. I think tanking (and if you have thoughts that combat this, please share) may be the easiest to min/max, especially DKs. This is largely in part to the assumption that the tank MUST cc/interupt when possible (stamina allowing, I know), utilize their skills to mitigate damage, and if possible self heal (which is possible through all 4 classes, some obvious, some not so much).

Healers may have the most flexibility. I know, everyone says "WELL WE ARE PIDGEON HOLED INTO USING THE RESTO STAFF ONLY, ER MAH GERD!!!". Shush, if you do not like it, do not heal. Problem solved. Now back to their flexibility, you can take a healer a couple of different ways, either a full on support/cc type of build or, if you are really good at managing your resources, a Heal/DPS hybrid build. For my sorc I just choose to go double resto staff with heals and some CC (Though I do plan to level destro staff as well, feeling an impulse spam coming in vet content).

Truly, to each his or her own.

Sezmu

Morgentis wrote: »

I agree with Victus and Vanity.
It's ok to have 5x2 skills IMHO, however when you go for a new spell/ability, you do not know if this is going to be permanent - or not- when switching bar.

For instance, my mageLight will be turned off if I switch my action bar (spell is present in one bar only), whereas my surge spell, which boosts my weapon damage will stay turned on (whereas present in one bar only as well, not to mention I switch weapons b/w my 2 bars).

So it does not seem to make sense. I 1st realized this with my annulment shield, which stayed turned on on the switch (only present in 1 bar), but thought "ok, this is linked to my light armor, why not", but then with the surge...I do not understand why other spells do not stay active.

Ok for not having too much slots, but please, WHY cancel "SOME" of them when switching ?

@Zenimax : could you please answer that or work on updating the wording on the spells which kinda lack details about this ? Thank you.

You are comparing toggle abilities to temporary activate buffs. The buffs will remain but any toggle abilities will disappear if they are not present on the other bar also. For example on my Sorc, I have mage light on both bars that way when I switch to my resto staff for healing myself I don't have to worry about the crit going away.

For summoners its simple put your summons on both bars and they will stay when switching, instead of being limited to 3 skills you now have 6 and 2 ultimate's to utilize while maintaining your pets.

Khazaad

tl;dr

petz R 4 noobs

Lord_Hev

There's a very super-simple solution to this. Get rid of toggle-summons. Period. In all TES games, summons were threatening and deadly. WHY??? Because they were expensive, and, most importantly, they were on a TIMER.


ZOS needs to revamp their idea on summoning, because it just does not cut it. The balancing for toggle summons is more punishing then balancing for set duration summons. For example, take the Storm Atronach. Hot-damn now THAT's how a summon works. Ok... now lets take that concept, and tone it down. That's how a summon works. You have to summon them in combat, and you have to be careful on when to summon them. For EX: sometimes it is best to save them for half-way in the battle instead of immediately bringing them out. Other times, you are best bringing them out guns-blazing for a zerg rush. TACTICS!!!


For low-leveling, they will be much more difficult to use compared to how easy it is for toggle summons. BUT... The inverse happens. You see how the toggle-summons are so easy and useful for 1-50 lvling?? Now in VR, they are useless...

Set duration summons would have a similar inverse effect. Where they were too costly and expensive to spam in low-level content... They become a TRUE WEAPON in VR content with the right gear and specs!


In order to have a true summoner build, you need to have set-duration summons. No ifs ands or buts. They are the best compromise. And best of all, you can switch your skill swap. Because they aren't useless toggles!!! Well, what do ya know?

Lynx7386

Stop thinking of summons as toggled abilities and start thinking of them as spells that you constantly have to recast (without actually having to push the button).

You're not going to get them taken off the bar, sorry. The summons are functionally the same as any other skill bar ability, and adding them on top of an extra 5 slots worth of abilities would create an imbalance.

eliisra

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Stop thinking of summons as toggled abilities and start thinking of them as spells that you constantly have to recast (without actually having to push the button).

You're not going to get them taken off the bar, sorry. The summons are functionally the same as any other skill bar ability, and adding them on top of an extra 5 slots worth of abilities would create an imbalance.

Do you honestly expect anyone to spend 1,5 sec and a buttload of magicka to summon a pet that dies in 1-2 hits from a normal NPC?

Pets AI is a joke, they can't be controlled, they attack what ever they feel like, do no real dmg, reduces your magicka with 10% and gets you killed.

Pets aren't good enough to cost 2 skill slots. Neither is Bound Armour.

Only toggle spell that's actually worth filling up both action bars, is Mage Light. If we are talking balance.

They need to redesign the Daedric Summoning skill line or give sorcs a completely new one. It's top 3 worst skill line in the game.

And yes, inb4 NB's have it even worse. I am well aware.

Lord_Hev

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Stop thinking of summons as toggled abilities and start thinking of them as spells that you constantly have to recast (without actually having to push the button).

You're not going to get them taken off the bar, sorry. The summons are functionally the same as any other skill bar ability, and adding them on top of an extra 5 slots worth of abilities would create an imbalance.

No it wouldn't. As it is right now. You could suddenly have 5 clannfears at once through some theoretical exploit, and you still would be sub-par.



There is no pretend. They NEED to be set duration, so they can BE a proper weapon and utility that should have to take up the oh-so limited number of slots on your skill-bars. With the right costs and limitations(maybe even an inner cooldown to prevent spam if you have godly magic pool or whatever), they're threat and theirDPS-output would be more than balanced by required maintenance and up-keep. But only if they were set duration. If ZOS were to buff them, but keep them toggle, THEN they would be over-powered. Having a timer on them + magic cost would inter maintenance and strategic uses... and thus, their damage and threat level would be justified.


Where-as, the toggles you just summon and forget. And they end up weak and useless in VR content.


Set duration is the most balanced way to go. Put them on a timer(base 25 seconds, with 45 seconds max through leveling and morphs). Buff up their damage by like 150%.(compared to the crap damage they do now) while they're at it, un-gimp them too. Clannfear should have access to their charge attack, and the Twilight's should have their spin attack.

Crescent

Usually I find the people arguing for keeping them a cost of 2 slots are the people who have an axe to grind with sorcerers over bolt escape but want to disguise their class grudges under the false concern of balance.

A damn DK can buff weapon damage and add it to his group for one entire minute. Yet that huge group buff and damage increase doesn't deserve to consume two bar slots.

The summons already have a cost. They reduce your max magicka by 10% per summon active. Running 3 summons like people are whining would cost the sorcerer a whopping 30% decrease in max magicka.