Skippers, runners, etc. AKA dungeon sprinting

tincanman

Drammanoth wrote: »

I know little can be done to prevent sprinters from finishing the dungeon where the rest of the group is half way.

So maybe, instead of the above, could you make the time after group disbandment last 180 sec - to have the time to collect all the loot from chest, and perhaps return to be able to collect the loot from the boss that was killed way before us?

And no, don't tell me "choose a group you will like" because this is not a solution. I too would like to do the do the dungeon relatively fast, BUT not to the point of ignoring others.

I would have no objection to this increase in the instance lifetime.

tincanman

Speed runners etc are NOT a problem with GROUP dungeons. If you choose to stay in a random group after a vote-kick has failed and you are unhappy with the way a dungeon is run, that's a 'you' problem.

There are loads of groups that pre-form prior to using the random tool to find a dungeons ( for fun, transmutes, xp etc) as friends/guildies/zonechat that would be SEVERELY impacted by the some of the 'anti-skipping' suggestions mentioned in this thread.

Pre-formed groups, by their nature, dictate the rate and the way a dungeon is run by agreement and consent - they are like-minded individuals who communicate their preferences. This is and should continue to be the only 'solution' to the non-problems described in this thread.

If you insist on going into completely random groups then you will get completely random individuals with often differing objectives (speed, story, search & loot etc). In this case it's incumbent on you to communicate any of your preferences at the start while recognising and accepting that in such groups you have no right to expect anything. If you're not happy then just leave - or ask to be kicked so you dont have a penalty.

Or just post in zone-chat the kind of group you are looking for - if you have at least 3 like-minded individuals out of 4 then you are certainly in a position to ensure the dungeon run will be EXACTLY what those 3 want.

Any other changes to the functionality of the random dungeon tool or enforcement of the kind of inflexiblity to the way dungeons could be run as suggested by others in this thread would be overkill. I am fundamentally opposed to any changes that would limit how friends/guildies or other pre-formed groups choose for themselves how they will run any dungeon who are only using the tool to generate a random dungeon and not to find groups (other than the occasional slot fill to make up 4).

tincanman

Forgot to mention: there' already a new group finder tool where you can specify the kind of group you want. This is marvellous in potential and, I believe, probably needs to be explored more by those who favour this solo-random dungeon thing to find like-minded groups to run dungeons.

spartaxoxo

Speed runners are definitely an issue for some dungeons. As they can cause quests to fail and loot to be missed.

ZOS should address this by modernizing those quests so that they succeed even if a player moves past that dialogue, and also they should despawn all non-boss enemies and extend the timer before removing everyone when the final boss is killed. This would allow players both the time and ability to go back and picked things up they missed when the runner forced everyone past it.

They should also implement a story mode that doesn't give any group drops (no undaunted keys, no monster helmets, no transmute crystals, no pledge progress, no gear sets) so that people who want to hear the story can do so at their own pace.

Joining encounter in progress was a good step in addressing this issue, but there's still a bit more to go.

Elsonso

tincanman wrote: »

Speed runners etc are NOT a problem with GROUP dungeons. If you choose to stay in a random group after a vote-kick has failed and you are unhappy with the way a dungeon is run, that's a 'you' problem.

Oh, yeah. It is. Particularly with Fungal Grotto I.

Vulkunne

Sarannah wrote: »

Well, ZOS does need to fix this issue fast.

In another thread I posted the suggestion to have a solo + three companion queue that grants transmutes as well, this way the rushers/fake roles can rush with their companions instead of negatively impacting many other players. To them it doesn't matter who is in there with them anyways.

Taken from the other thread:

To me this idea seems like a win-win for every player type:
-Those who want to fake roles/speedrun(who basically run solo), can now run solo + three companions.
-Those who want to avoid the speedrunners/fake role players, can now run solo + three companions.
-Those who are no longer using the dungeon finder at all, can start doing so again with solo + three companions.
-Those who want to run storymode, can now run solo + three companions at their own pace.
-Those who want to play dungeons with other players, can still queue up to meet other players.
-Those who want to learn how the game works/new players, can now queue up both with other players and solo + three companions.
-Those who just want quick transmutes, can now run solo + three companions.
-Those who don't want to wait in queue, can now run solo + three companions.
-Those who want to farm a specific item/lead/something, can now easier do so with solo + three companions.

There does not seem to be any downside to me. And like I said above, those who still want to run dungeons with other players, still can and will do so. Solo + three companions would mostly take those who don't really want to queue with other players, out of the dungeonfinder.

Edit: To point out the other side's arguments: some player(s) disagreed with me. As they feel a solo + companion queue would leave the regular dungeon queue with too few players still queueing up.

You know what this is not a terrible idea.

However it makes me wonder if doing this wouldn't hurt the regular queus. While I have always advocated for group members being able to swap out roles, I guess someone who runs through things so recklessly cares about the group as much as someone else who would run it alone with what amounts to (3) npcs.

ClowdyAllDay

the worst case with speed runers is when they are the group leader and no one icks them. they run ahead finish the last boss and disband the group such that no one can do any other content. um yeah see you next tuesday and thanks for treating us like we dont matter. n that case we need the disband group function removed from the menu.

Braffin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Speed runners are definitely an issue for some dungeons. As they can cause quests to fail and loot to be missed.

ZOS should address this by modernizing those quests so that they succeed even if a player moves past that dialogue, and also they should despawn all non-boss enemies and extend the timer before removing everyone when the final boss is killed. This would allow players both the time and ability to go back and picked things up they missed when the runner forced everyone past it.

They should also implement a story mode that doesn't give any group drops (no undaunted keys, no monster helmets, no transmute crystals, no pledge progress, no gear sets) so that people who want to hear the story can do so at their own pace.

Joining encounter in progress was a good step in addressing this issue, but there's still a bit more to go.

I really like this ideas. Solving the issue while nobody else is harmed by rigid and arbitrary restrictions.

The only thing I'd change is to allow drops of gear sets to simplify farming. That could very well lead to less speedrunners.
I agree with not dropping undaunted keys, monster helmets or (and especially) transmutes tho, as these rewards are and should remain clearly group-related.

Erickson9610

I was once kicked from a group because I queued for Direfrost Keep specifically, and I skipped past the bosses to get to the pressure plates, which require a second player to activate. I told the group members that I was looking for a Hulking Draugr bow (which can only drop from chests and the final boss), and so I left the other bosses alone so the others could kill them on their own time while I waited on the pressure plates for them.

The group ended up vote kicking me, which is how they should've handled the situation. I wasn't trying to ruin the experience for them, but they didn't agree with me rushing ahead, and they happened to outnumber me. I would've farmed this dungeon solo (not with the queue) if it was possible to get past the pressure plates with my Companion, but that wasn't an option. Those group members told me to find my own group to farm that dungeon with, but I had no one else.

There are tools in place already to deal with people who don't want to run dungeons your way. That said, I would've only soloed that dungeon if it was possible to complete solo — not all dungeons in the game are soloable, and not all players have available group members to run with.

Sakiri

My tank buddy can solo the place. I usually just run with him, not in a queue, if I need the quests done.

This behavior appears in every. single. mmo. to date.

The ONLY solution is linear dungeon design. Boring, uninteresting, corridor, linear dungeon design.

And then it'll turn into FFXIV where you pull all the trash up to the boss, kill it in a murder ball, then repeat.

Heelie

The vast majority of people queue for random normals to finish as quick as possible. The "problem" is that it's the most efficient way to transmute stones on demand. Going into a random normal expecting the group to wait for you to do quest or side bosses is unfair to them as well. But if you do ask, my experience is that almost everyone is willing to slow down. I still think that queueing as premades is much more fair now that group finder also exists. The rusher's aren't doing anything wrong they're just playing the game how it was designed, the problem is the design where you are forced to play something you don't want to. If ZOS just tied the same amount of Transmute rewards to all content, this problem would be mostly gone. Personally I think the rewards of the worthy geode dropping on the first boss kill and then on a random chance is enough. This would sustain 90% of ESO players. Then the only people rushing in the queue would be those looking for xp, but that's not a lot of people.

OutLaw_Nynx

If ZoS increased the drop of stones for veteran runs, I wouldn’t bother with normals. I just don’t have the patience to casually stroll through base game dungeons. If someone tells me they are doing the quest however, I have no problem slowing down to make sure they get their stuff. Same with gear. People need to communicate. Don’t expect people to know what you’re wanting if you don’t say anything. That isn’t really fair .

svendf

Some wrote "run in a premade group". Alot of guilds in Eso are made out of speedrunners, skipers, and what not. Only one solution - don´t do dungeons untill ZoS fix it. That if you want to keep a good mental balance and stay healthy.

If I can do it many of you can as well. Find another Mmo (as I did), and do all your dungeons in that Mmo. Nobody have to leave Eso. Do quests, pick flowers, have fun with your houses. You can do anything, just stay out of dungeons for the sake of your health.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They should also implement a story mode that doesn't give any group drops (no undaunted keys, no monster helmets, no transmute crystals, no pledge progress, no gear sets) so that people who want to hear the story can do so at their own pace.

I am 100% on board with a story mode too. It would be really nice for new DLCs, as-is I usually have to grab the quest beforehand, and end up looking up most of the rest on the wiki six months or so after the dungeon comes out.

licenturion

For me daily dungeons are just like daily quests that you done 500 times. E, next, next, next, transport to delve, rush through delve to marker, finish objective, look for guildmate in area and travel free to nearest player in town, E, E, finish.

When I was new I was also frustrated about dungeons though, and I wish there would be an extra queue for people who want to run the dungeon quests, listen to dialog and do every side boss and puzzle. Although this is possible now in theory with the group tool.

I had to read or watch the dungeon quests on YouTube or the wiki to see what they were actually about after playing them already for 30 times.

But on the other hand I also didn't want to hamstring most players who are doing their daily quickrun by being the annoying tourist among the communting crowd going to work, so I adapted.

JanTanhide

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

I know little can be done to prevent sprinters from finishing the dungeon where the rest of the group is half way.

So maybe, instead of the above, could you make the time after group disbandment last 180 sec - to have the time to collect all the loot from chest, and perhaps return to be able to collect the loot from the boss that was killed way before us?

And no, don't tell me "choose a group you will like" because this is not a solution. I too would like to do the do the dungeon relatively fast, BUT not to the point of ignoring others.

I thought this was already fixed so that if everyone leaves the instance, you can still stay in to complete quests/collect loot, ect.?

Only for a few minutes.

JanTanhide

I usually vote to kick the Speed demons. Usually they go bye bye quickly.

Drammanoth

+1 dungeon story mode.

Tbh, I'd love to have the opportunity to do the quest in the original mode AND in the story mode.

In story mode you would not get extra loot, just some pennies and that's that. Plus some acknowledgement, an achievevement, eg. "Of Lamias And Snakes" --> "Learn the story of Arx Corinium" (Do the quest in story mode) from the activity finder.

As for DLCs - eg. Horns of the Reach "Nord Swine no more!" (Falkreath), and "Blood Has Cooled" (Bloodroot Forge). --> Achievement: To take the bull by its bloody horns of the Reach.

Drammanoth

JanTanhide wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

I know little can be done to prevent sprinters from finishing the dungeon where the rest of the group is half way.

So maybe, instead of the above, could you make the time after group disbandment last 180 sec - to have the time to collect all the loot from chest, and perhaps return to be able to collect the loot from the boss that was killed way before us?

And no, don't tell me "choose a group you will like" because this is not a solution. I too would like to do the do the dungeon relatively fast, BUT not to the point of ignoring others.

I thought this was already fixed so that if everyone leaves the instance, you can still stay in to complete quests/collect loot, ect.?

Only for a few minutes.

No - 60 seconds.

Alpheu5

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I was once kicked from a group because I queued for Direfrost Keep specifically, and I skipped past the bosses to get to the pressure plates, which require a second player to activate. I told the group members that I was looking for a Hulking Draugr bow (which can only drop from chests and the final boss), and so I left the other bosses alone so the others could kill them on their own time while I waited on the pressure plates for them.

The group ended up vote kicking me, which is how they should've handled the situation. I wasn't trying to ruin the experience for them, but they didn't agree with me rushing ahead, and they happened to outnumber me. I would've farmed this dungeon solo (not with the queue) if it was possible to get past the pressure plates with my Companion, but that wasn't an option. Those group members told me to find my own group to farm that dungeon with, but I had no one else.

There are tools in place already to deal with people who don't want to run dungeons your way. That said, I would've only soloed that dungeon if it was possible to complete solo — not all dungeons in the game are soloable, and not all players have available group members to run with.

What you're describing is one of the absolutely worst, slowest ways to get through any content. Rather than stick with the group to expedite their arrival to the obligatory co-op mechanic, you selfishly ran ahead and made them 3-man everything up to that point, prolonging both the time that you had to wait and the time that they had to spend fighting.

If you want to actually make random normal runs go faster, put together a Void Bash DPS setup with a taunt and queue as a tank.

AlterBlika

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I would've farmed this dungeon solo (not with the queue) if it was possible to get past the pressure plates with my Companion, but that wasn't an option.

You can skip plates by using gap closer on a troll behind the door you open after killing that boss. You'll travel through it. There are videos on youtube for this.

Erickson9610

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I was once kicked from a group because I queued for Direfrost Keep specifically, and I skipped past the bosses to get to the pressure plates, which require a second player to activate. I told the group members that I was looking for a Hulking Draugr bow (which can only drop from chests and the final boss), and so I left the other bosses alone so the others could kill them on their own time while I waited on the pressure plates for them.

The group ended up vote kicking me, which is how they should've handled the situation. I wasn't trying to ruin the experience for them, but they didn't agree with me rushing ahead, and they happened to outnumber me. I would've farmed this dungeon solo (not with the queue) if it was possible to get past the pressure plates with my Companion, but that wasn't an option. Those group members told me to find my own group to farm that dungeon with, but I had no one else.

There are tools in place already to deal with people who don't want to run dungeons your way. That said, I would've only soloed that dungeon if it was possible to complete solo — not all dungeons in the game are soloable, and not all players have available group members to run with.

What you're describing is one of the absolutely worst, slowest ways to get through any content. Rather than stick with the group to expedite their arrival to the obligatory co-op mechanic, you selfishly ran ahead and made them 3-man everything up to that point, prolonging both the time that you had to wait and the time that they had to spend fighting.

If you want to actually make random normal runs go faster, put together a Void Bash DPS setup with a taunt and queue as a tank.

I wasn't in a random normal, though. That, and I ran ahead to look for chests, which do have a chance of containing the item I was searching for. But, you're right — me running ahead and waiting is no different from me being AFK at the start of the dungeon, which warrants being kicked from the group.

Erickson9610

AlterBlika wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I would've farmed this dungeon solo (not with the queue) if it was possible to get past the pressure plates with my Companion, but that wasn't an option.

You can skip plates by using gap closer on a troll behind the door you open after killing that boss. You'll travel through it. There are videos on youtube for this.

That's really interesting. I'll have to give that a shot the next time I run that dungeon solo. Frankly, I think all dungeons should be possible on normal with at least a player and their Companion(s). Direfrost Keep is just one of the few exceptions where it isn't normally possible to complete without two players.

moo_2021

ClowdyAllDay wrote: »

the worst case with speed runers is when they are the group leader and no one icks them. they run ahead finish the last boss and disband the group such that no one can do any other content. um yeah see you next tuesday and thanks for treating us like we dont matter. n that case we need the disband group function removed from the menu.

Why do we even need a group leader for PUG?

Random group should only disband after everyone leave.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's dungeon related.

Thank you for your understanding

pelle412

Remove transmutes from random normal (but keep for random vet) and drastically reduce the XP bonus from random normal but keep same amount for random vet. This will remove most of the dungeon rushing.

boi_anachronism_

pelle412 wrote: »

Remove transmutes from random normal (but keep for random vet) and drastically reduce the XP bonus from random normal but keep same amount for random vet. This will remove most of the dungeon rushing.

This has been suggested. The outcome would simply be more folks unprepared for vet dungeons, especially dlcs, ending up in groups where they cant effectively fulfill their rolls. You see it already with people looking for monster helms.it usually just ends with a disbanded group for dlcs. I see it constantly.

Braffin

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

pelle412 wrote: »

Remove transmutes from random normal (but keep for random vet) and drastically reduce the XP bonus from random normal but keep same amount for random vet. This will remove most of the dungeon rushing.

This has been suggested. The outcome would simply be more folks unprepared for vet dungeons, especially dlcs, ending up in groups where they cant effectively fulfill their rolls. You see it already with people looking for monster helms.it usually just ends with a disbanded group for dlcs. I see it constantly.

You are not wrong. But how long would that be (honest question)?

Rewards are only gained by succeeding in the content they are tied to.

Players wouldn't earn a single transmute and only a minor amount of xp for disbanding the group. So they are left with the choice to either play properly (namely team-oriented and aware of the content's mechanics) or waive the rewards.

I think after a few harsh initial weeks the queues would in fact become more healthy. Rvd got more capable players while rnd got rid of most speedrunners.

Drammanoth

Braffin wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

pelle412 wrote: »

Remove transmutes from random normal (but keep for random vet) and drastically reduce the XP bonus from random normal but keep same amount for random vet. This will remove most of the dungeon rushing.

This has been suggested. The outcome would simply be more folks unprepared for vet dungeons, especially dlcs, ending up in groups where they cant effectively fulfill their rolls. You see it already with people looking for monster helms.it usually just ends with a disbanded group for dlcs. I see it constantly.

You are not wrong. But how long would that be (honest question)?

Rewards are only gained by succeeding in the content they are tied to.

Players wouldn't earn a single transmute and only a minor amount of xp for disbanding the group. So they are left with the choice to either play properly (namely team-oriented and aware of the content's mechanics) or waive the rewards.

I think after a few harsh initial weeks the queues would in fact become more healthy. Rvd got more capable players while rnd got rid of most speedrunners.

Harsh. Nasty. I LOVE IT. I also do believe this would solve the problem. It's fairly easy to get 500 transmutes. Much harder to spend them - unless you experiment much, but still, you do get the minimum refund of 25.

pelle412

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

This has been suggested. The outcome would simply be more folks unprepared for vet dungeons, especially dlcs, ending up in groups where they cant effectively fulfill their rolls. You see it already with people looking for monster helms.it usually just ends with a disbanded group for dlcs. I see it constantly.

Normal has never been an adequate training ground for vet. You also have to pair it with a self-interest to get better. With dungeon rushing in random normals, nobody who wants to learn has any opportunity today.

I main a tank and if I queue for a vet dlc dungeon, it's very rare that it can't be completed. I can't remember the last time it happened. Sometimes the hardmodes are a bit much in a pug but straight completion is not really a problem. If you see it constantly, I don't know what to tell you.