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Ball groups are killing Cyrodiil PvP
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Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
1 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
Edited by RetPing on 11 January 2024 10:0010 -
Freilauftomate✭✭✭✭I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
It's not that people don't understand what you are saying. But some people don't like oversimplifications and scapegoats.
Healing is not broken. Ballgroups are not invincible.
We have different playstyles for a reason. All of them have their chance to shine. Not everyone can win every fight all the time. And that's good.2 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Freilauftomate wrote: »I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
It's not that people don't understand what you are saying. But some people don't like oversimplifications and scapegoats.
Healing is not broken. Ballgroups are not invincible.
We have different playstyles for a reason. All of them have their chance to shine. Not everyone can win every fight all the time. And that's good.
I mean, this is blatantly wrong. Sure they're not invincible when getting sieged and zerged by 2x or more than their numbers.
But healing is broken.
The stacking of 10+ echoing vigors is a mechanic that absolutely should not exist, and which performs far above what is acceptable in terms of group healing over time. The skill has no prerequisite to slotting, is a large smart AOE with a very long duration, which hits 6 people per cast vs radiating's 3, and has no limit on stacking.
It would be one thing if these groups were using 2x vigors, 2x radiating, 2x springs, 2x rituals, 2x buddings, etc. In this case they need specific classes, weapon choices, and to utilize skill slots in order to achieve the healing that slapping echoing on 10-12 people achieves. But that isn't the case - they're running echoing vigor on 10-12 people, radiating on 2-4 people, ans whatever other meta burst heals/hots fit on their supports.
It's a thoughtless mechanic that enables a level of survivability not justified by the coordination or sacrifices made to acquire it.Edited by React on 11 January 2024 15:23@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
ContentTwitch.tv/reactfaster
Youtube.com/@ReactFaster11 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Freilauftomate wrote: »I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
It's not that people don't understand what you are saying. But some people don't like oversimplifications and scapegoats.
Healing is not broken. Ballgroups are not invincible.
We have different playstyles for a reason. All of them have their chance to shine. Not everyone can win every fight all the time. And that's good.
I mean, this is blatantly wrong. Sure they're not invincible when getting sieged and zerged by 2x or more than their numbers.
But healing is broken.
The stacking of 10+ echoing vigors is a mechanic that absolutely should not exist, and which performs far above what is acceptable in terms of group healing over time. The skill has no prerequisite to slotting, is a large smart AOE with a very long duration, and has no limit on stacking.
It would be one thing if these groups were using 2x vigors, 2x radiating, 2x springs, 2x rituals, 2x buddings, etc. In this case they need specific classes, weapon choices, and to utilize skill slots in order to achieve the healing that slapping echoing on 10-12 people achieves. But that isn't the case - they're running echoing vigor on 10-12 people, radiating on 2-4 people, ans whatever other meta burst heals/hots fit on their supports.
It's a thoughtless mechanic that enables a level of survivability not justified by the coordination or sacrifices made to acquire it.
So much this. It's the heal stacking that needs to be limited to bring ball groups into acceptable performance limits. It stands to reason that limiting the heal stacking would result in less lag too.
But alas, it sure looks like ZOS further restricted the server resources devoted to cyrodiil after the most recent "test", and only intends to continue slowly phasing our Cyrodiil PvP from the game all together. This treatment of the PvP community reflects very poorly on ZOS as a company. The pop cap in Cyrodiil looks like it was reduced to 60 players after the last test, down yet again from 80, which was already far, far too few players to keep Cyrodiil fun. I'm so glad I cancelled my ESO+ after U35.
Edited by SaffronCitrusflower on 11 January 2024 15:318 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Edited by Amottica on 11 January 2024 16:211 -
Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭Strategy is supposed to be the answer, but these anti group players want to be Rambo and wipe out many players with a few button presses instead of doing things like taking out the healers first and using negates to shut down heals.
3 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Strategy is supposed to be the answer, but these anti group players want to be Rambo and wipe out many players with a few button presses instead of doing things like taking out the healers first and using negates to shut down heals.
You're just spewing nonsense and ignoring the blatant issue which is the ability to stack 10+ echoing vigors. You asked for proof, it was provided, and you proceeded to ignore that and spew more of this rhetoric.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Could we see some footage of your group taking down these "ball groups"? Also, what platform do you play on?@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
ContentTwitch.tv/reactfaster
Youtube.com/@ReactFaster10 -
Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Strategy is supposed to be the answer, but these anti group players want to be Rambo and wipe out many players with a few button presses instead of doing things like taking out the healers first and using negates to shut down heals.
You're just spewing nonsense and ignoring the blatant issue which is the ability to stack 10+ echoing vigors. You asked for proof, it was provided, and you proceeded to ignore that and spew more of this rhetoric.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Could we see some footage of your group taking down these "ball groups"? Also, what platform do you play on?
I will ignore your bait saying what I say is nonsense and repeat that all the tools are in the game to stop the healing and the groups, I am in a "ball" group and that is how we take down another "ball" group.
2 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Strategy is supposed to be the answer, but these anti group players want to be Rambo and wipe out many players with a few button presses instead of doing things like taking out the healers first and using negates to shut down heals.
You're just spewing nonsense and ignoring the blatant issue which is the ability to stack 10+ echoing vigors. You asked for proof, it was provided, and you proceeded to ignore that and spew more of this rhetoric.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Could we see some footage of your group taking down these "ball groups"? Also, what platform do you play on?
I will ignore your bait saying what I say is nonsense and repeat that all the tools are in the game to stop the healing and the groups, I am in a "ball" group and that is how we take down another "ball" group.
Oh, so you're in a ballgroup but you needed someone else to provide proof of a player having 12 hots on them? Seems to me like you're not being genuine in your arguments, and there might be some bias present here.Four_Fingers wrote: »Please post a screenshot with proof of someone having 12 HOTs on them.
One would think someone would have posted one by now.
Edited by React on 11 January 2024 16:47@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
ContentTwitch.tv/reactfaster
Youtube.com/@ReactFaster10 -
Four_Fingers✭✭✭✭✭
✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Strategy is supposed to be the answer, but these anti group players want to be Rambo and wipe out many players with a few button presses instead of doing things like taking out the healers first and using negates to shut down heals.
You're just spewing nonsense and ignoring the blatant issue which is the ability to stack 10+ echoing vigors. You asked for proof, it was provided, and you proceeded to ignore that and spew more of this rhetoric.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Could we see some footage of your group taking down these "ball groups"? Also, what platform do you play on?
I will ignore your bait saying what I say is nonsense and repeat that all the tools are in the game to stop the healing and the groups, I am in a "ball" group and that is how we take down another "ball" group.
Oh, so you're in a ballgroup but you needed someone else to provide proof of a player having 12 hots on them? Seems to me like you're not being genuine in your arguments, and there might be some bias present here.Four_Fingers wrote: »Please post a screenshot with proof of someone having 12 HOTs on them.
One would think someone would have posted one by now.Four_Fingers wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Strategy is supposed to be the answer, but these anti group players want to be Rambo and wipe out many players with a few button presses instead of doing things like taking out the healers first and using negates to shut down heals.
You're just spewing nonsense and ignoring the blatant issue which is the ability to stack 10+ echoing vigors. You asked for proof, it was provided, and you proceeded to ignore that and spew more of this rhetoric.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Could we see some footage of your group taking down these "ball groups"? Also, what platform do you play on?
I will ignore your bait saying what I say is nonsense and repeat that all the tools are in the game to stop the healing and the groups, I am in a "ball" group and that is how we take down another "ball" group.
Oh, so you're in a ballgroup but you needed someone else to provide proof of a player having 12 hots on them? Seems to me like you're not being genuine in your arguments, and there might be some bias present here.Four_Fingers wrote: »Please post a screenshot with proof of someone having 12 HOTs on them.
One would think someone would have posted one by now.
Yes on PS5 I have never seen that many HOTs active on my buff bar and posting the same screenshot over is hardly convincing.
I not only play in a "ball" group, I play a support/heals role.
Edited by Four_Fingers on 11 January 2024 16:563 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Strategy is supposed to be the answer, but these anti group players want to be Rambo and wipe out many players with a few button presses instead of doing things like taking out the healers first and using negates to shut down heals.
You're just spewing nonsense and ignoring the blatant issue which is the ability to stack 10+ echoing vigors. You asked for proof, it was provided, and you proceeded to ignore that and spew more of this rhetoric.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Could we see some footage of your group taking down these "ball groups"? Also, what platform do you play on?
I will ignore your bait saying what I say is nonsense and repeat that all the tools are in the game to stop the healing and the groups, I am in a "ball" group and that is how we take down another "ball" group.
Oh, so you're in a ballgroup but you needed someone else to provide proof of a player having 12 hots on them? Seems to me like you're not being genuine in your arguments, and there might be some bias present here.Four_Fingers wrote: »Please post a screenshot with proof of someone having 12 HOTs on them.
One would think someone would have posted one by now.Four_Fingers wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Strategy is supposed to be the answer, but these anti group players want to be Rambo and wipe out many players with a few button presses instead of doing things like taking out the healers first and using negates to shut down heals.
You're just spewing nonsense and ignoring the blatant issue which is the ability to stack 10+ echoing vigors. You asked for proof, it was provided, and you proceeded to ignore that and spew more of this rhetoric.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Could we see some footage of your group taking down these "ball groups"? Also, what platform do you play on?
I will ignore your bait saying what I say is nonsense and repeat that all the tools are in the game to stop the healing and the groups, I am in a "ball" group and that is how we take down another "ball" group.
Oh, so you're in a ballgroup but you needed someone else to provide proof of a player having 12 hots on them? Seems to me like you're not being genuine in your arguments, and there might be some bias present here.Four_Fingers wrote: »Please post a screenshot with proof of someone having 12 HOTs on them.
One would think someone would have posted one by now.
Yes on PS5 I have never seen that many HOTs active on my buff bar and posting the same screenshot over is hardly convincing.
I not only play in a "ball" group, I play a support/heals role.
Sounds like you're in a pretty poorly optimized group, then. This behavior is visible in any given "ball group" on PC NA. I'm not even grouped with these players when taking either of these screenshots, this is just from me standing inside them momentarily. Grouped players will have even better uptime and possibly more casts on then, as iirc smart heals prioritize group members in range first.
Regardless, the fact that your group doesn't utilize this mechanic has absolutely no bearing on how broken it is. In fact since you don't utilize or experience this mechanic, you can hardly make an informed argument here based on your "experience" saying that it is fine, can you?
Edited by React on 11 January 2024 17:49@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
ContentTwitch.tv/reactfaster
Youtube.com/@ReactFaster10 -
Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Strategy is supposed to be the answer, but these anti group players want to be Rambo and wipe out many players with a few button presses instead of doing things like taking out the healers first and using negates to shut down heals.
You're just spewing nonsense and ignoring the blatant issue which is the ability to stack 10+ echoing vigors. You asked for proof, it was provided, and you proceeded to ignore that and spew more of this rhetoric.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Could we see some footage of your group taking down these "ball groups"? Also, what platform do you play on?
I will ignore your bait saying what I say is nonsense and repeat that all the tools are in the game to stop the healing and the groups, I am in a "ball" group and that is how we take down another "ball" group.
Oh, so you're in a ballgroup but you needed someone else to provide proof of a player having 12 hots on them? Seems to me like you're not being genuine in your arguments, and there might be some bias present here.Four_Fingers wrote: »Please post a screenshot with proof of someone having 12 HOTs on them.
One would think someone would have posted one by now.Four_Fingers wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Strategy is supposed to be the answer, but these anti group players want to be Rambo and wipe out many players with a few button presses instead of doing things like taking out the healers first and using negates to shut down heals.
You're just spewing nonsense and ignoring the blatant issue which is the ability to stack 10+ echoing vigors. You asked for proof, it was provided, and you proceeded to ignore that and spew more of this rhetoric.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Could we see some footage of your group taking down these "ball groups"? Also, what platform do you play on?
I will ignore your bait saying what I say is nonsense and repeat that all the tools are in the game to stop the healing and the groups, I am in a "ball" group and that is how we take down another "ball" group.
Oh, so you're in a ballgroup but you needed someone else to provide proof of a player having 12 hots on them? Seems to me like you're not being genuine in your arguments, and there might be some bias present here.Four_Fingers wrote: »Please post a screenshot with proof of someone having 12 HOTs on them.
One would think someone would have posted one by now.
Yes on PS5 I have never seen that many HOTs active on my buff bar and posting the same screenshot over is hardly convincing.
I not only play in a "ball" group, I play a support/heals role.
Don't need screenshots for such examples when you can see them in most group videos.
Take this one from another topic which was posted recently:
https://youtu.be/bFppufjIjSI?feature=shared&t=208
Look at 1m 40s onwards - you see the group tracker on the left side with amount of vigors on each player shown. it normally sits around 5-10.@Solar_Breeze
NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast)
EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)6 -
Freilauftomate✭✭✭✭Now who is making assumptions?
Discussions like this one just show how little some people know about playing in a group. It's nice to see that everyone could still learn a thing or two about this game. Especially when it comes to understanding and fighting organized groups.
Same goes for the allegedly "invincible tower running macro cheaters" and all the other misunderstood playstyles that are absolutely fine, when you know how to counter them.2 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Freilauftomate wrote: »Now who is making assumptions?
Discussions like this one just show how little some people know about playing in a group. It's nice to see that everyone could still learn a thing or two about this game. Especially when it comes to understanding and fighting organized groups.
Same goes for the allegedly "invincible tower running macro cheaters" and all the other misunderstood playstyles that are absolutely fine, when you know how to counter them.
What are you even talking about? You didn't quote anything.
There is nothing fine whatsoever about having 10 stacks of echoing vigor on you.@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
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Freilauftomate✭✭✭✭There is nothing fine whatsoever about having 10 stacks of echoing vigor on you.
Maybe not if you are playing solo and can hide behind boxes and corners. But if you are in a group with 11 other players and a big stack of enemies is trying to kill you, then it's fine for me.
You can see in the video above that the hots are only healing for about 1-2k every 2 seconds, sometimes they crit. It's nice to have when you are constantly taking damage, yes. But when another organized group wants to bomb you, then the measly hots are not going to keep you alive. When it's done right, it will be over in a split second.
You don't have successful small scale bomber groups hunting ballgroups and zergs on your server?1 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Freilauftomate wrote: »There is nothing fine whatsoever about having 10 stacks of echoing vigor on you.
Maybe not if you are playing solo and can hide behind boxes and corners. But if you are in a group with 11 other players and a big stack of enemies is trying to kill you, then it's fine for me.
You can see in the video above that the hots are only healing for about 1-2k every 2 seconds, sometimes they crit. It's nice to have when you are constantly taking damage, yes. But when another organized group wants to bomb you, then the measly hots are not going to keep you alive. When it's done right, it will be over in a split second.
You don't have successful small scale bomber groups hunting ballgroups and zergs on your server?
2k x 10 healing every 2s is 10k HPS (healing per second) per person, for one single long duration, classless, AOE smart HOT that has no requirements to slot.
That is 10k+ HPS for spamming one ability. This isn't considering any of the other myriad of defensive tools in the kit, such as radiating, burst heals like BOP, ground HOTs, damage shields like sanctum, barrier, chakrams, sets like earthgore, and the list goes on.
That 10k HPS you're getting from vigor is what's pushing ballgroups over the edge of acceptable survivability. At least for the majority of other things, there are prerequisites such as "slot a resto staff" or "play an arcanist", that require more coordination and thought than simply "slot echoing and press it every 10 seconds".
It's an unacceptable mechanic that is long past due for an adjustment, and you know what? The good ball groups will adjust, and be totally fine. If a 2 per morph limit gets implemented, they'll swap to using 2 echoing, 2 radiating, 2 springs, 2 rituals, etc. That'll be fine - it will require a more refined comp and more coordination than simply "everybody press your AOE 6 man 15s smart HOT repetitively".@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
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jbrianj✭✭✭One of the few reasons I quit ESO for now. Whenever I go to Cyrodiil, there's no more zergs, there's no more sieges, there's nothing. It's just endless ball groups and 3-player proc set abusers that can 1v15. Never seen PvP more of a mess than I've ever seen in any other MMO.
The WvWvW concept in this format is completely dead. Period.5 -
TechMaybeHic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭One of the few reasons I quit ESO for now. Whenever I go to Cyrodiil, there's no more zergs, there's no more sieges, there's nothing. It's just endless ball groups and 3-player proc set abusers that can 1v15. Never seen PvP more of a mess than I've ever seen in any other MMO.
The WvWvW concept in this format is completely dead. Period.
There are faction stacks. The casual, less optimal than ball groups are nearly gone though. It's stack, small man run around LOS hump, or get on the meta of stack tight and stack HOTs. Kind of dull0 -
xFocused✭✭✭✭What I find funny is the title of this post, lol. Ball groups may be annoying but I wouldn't come close to saying they are "killing cyrodiil". How about the constant stuck in combat bug? Or the constant lag, unable to swap bars, getting kicked out of the game entirely, skills not working, the list goes on and on, lol.VENDETTA || https://www.youtube.com/@x_-Focused3 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭Four_Fingers wrote: »all the tools are in the game to stop the healing and the groups, I am in a "ball" group and that is how we take down another "ball" group.
I can concur on this but there are two big problems
To be effective against a ball group you need some very specific builds, but these build are not very effective against other players that are not in a ball group.
So what build shoudl I wear when entering Cyro? The one that is only usefull in some occasion against a boring ball group or the one where I can enjoy some nice fights against other people?
And then there is the other broken mechanic that make Ball group almost invincible, the combat bug.
If there was not this joke of a bug I could swap my build on the fly as soon I see a ball group is involved in a fight.
Now imagine 10 random people changing their build to tackle the BG, things would be way more intersting.
But when you see a BG is involved to be able to change your build you have at lest to:
- get you killed
- port to base
- enter cheesmonger to be sure to go out of combat
- port to the nearest keep
- ride where is the BG
so I just prefer to port somewhere else and ignore them.
Again, BG thrive because in this game there are two jokes, the broken healing stacking mechanic and the combat bug.
Let's celebrete the 10 years bug. Never seen an AAA game where a bug went on for so long.
3 -
wazzz56✭✭✭✭✭What I find funny is the title of this post, lol. Ball groups may be annoying but I wouldn't come close to saying they are "killing cyrodiil". How about the constant stuck in combat bug? Or the constant lag, unable to swap bars, getting kicked out of the game entirely, skills not working, the list goes on and on, lol.
even though you zerged me down and emoted over me in an outpost the other day
I agree with you wholeheartedly here GM Tig Ole Critties ps5 NA small scale PvP guild
"After a hard week of farming, or a long night of being nagged by your wife, there is nothing better than going out for a bit of a fish."0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Strategy is supposed to be the answer, but these anti group players want to be Rambo and wipe out many players with a few button presses instead of doing things like taking out the healers first and using negates to shut down heals.
You're just spewing nonsense and ignoring the blatant issue which is the ability to stack 10+ echoing vigors. You asked for proof, it was provided, and you proceeded to ignore that and spew more of this rhetoric.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Could we see some footage of your group taking down these "ball groups"? Also, what platform do you play on?
PC/NA and I do not record my gameplay. Clearly, my group is not the only coordinated group with a good leader as @Four_Fingers has noted that strategy is the answer. It is the same way in any world vs world PvP setting.
Those so-called ball groups are not that organized.
Adding here.
I see multiple players posting about taking down ball groups one way or another. So it is clear that this happens. I fail to see where the problem is.
Edited by Amottica on 12 January 2024 13:211 -
RetPing✭✭✭✭✭Freilauftomate wrote: »
Healing is not broken. Ballgroups are not invincible.
Yeah, healing is not broken, it follows the rules of the game, no one is cheating.
Why should someone cheat or break rules when there is a game mechanic so blatantly overpowered?
2 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Sorry, but your claim that your small group regularly takes down organized ball groups is simply not believeable. It sounds more like you don't really PvP much in Cyrodiil at all.
And react has clearly shown in this thread how Four Fingers claims are not factually supported as well.
Those of us that play ESO solely for the PvP and spend virtually our entire play time in Cyrodiil know what's going on.6 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭Four_Fingers wrote: »Please post a screenshot with proof of someone having 12 HOTs on them.
One would think someone would have posted one by now.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Four_Fingers wrote: »Please post a screenshot with proof of someone having 12 HOTs on them.
One would think someone would have posted one by now.
Hey, that's my screenshot! Thanks for sharing it here. Here's another one from the other day.
It is absolutely laughable that anybody defends this. I wrote some pretty good explanations as to why this needs to be addressed at that thread linked several comments above.
I don't have an issue with ball groups existing. They're entitled to play PVP like the rest of us. But I do have an issue with them being entirely invincible by exploiting the ability to stack the same HOT 10+ times. It's absurd.
All hots should be limited to 2 of a specific morph. You should be able to have 2 echoings + 2 radiatings + 2 of whatever else on you at once, but not more than 2 of any specific morph.
As you requested.
Edited by reazea on 12 January 2024 16:361 -
Freilauftomate✭✭✭✭Just a quick summary from my perspective:
In the beginning this discussion was about ballgroups in general.
Then someone claimed "the entire ball has 12 instances of rapid regen [sic!] on them at all times" and someone else said heal stacking is a broken mechanic and way too strong. I tried to talk about these claims, and why i think they are not accurate. Because some people always come up with completely unrealistic equations like "12 vigor + 12 regen = op => heal has to be nerfed..." and think they found a problem.
Then someone said "I do have an issue with them being entirely invincible by exploiting the ability to stack the same HOT", wich is obviously not true. Ballgroups are not invincible and stacking hots is not exploiting.
Then the same person had another extremely subjective and questionable theory: "That 10k HPS you're getting from vigor is what's pushing ballgroups over the edge of acceptable survivability."
Other players who (unlike the authors of all the wild speculations) seem to have some experience with playing in a group (and killing ballgroups) tried to talk about reality. They got insulted and accused of being liars. Just for trying to tell the truth about something that is constantly being exaggerated and oversimplified. By people who refuse to see the whole picture.
This forum exists to exchange information about the game, right? But that's a little hard when people just throw around flashy words like "broken", "exploit", "cheat" etc. combined with impossible claims and then demand changes that would most likely end up in a bigger mess than we have now.
It's like a constant witch hunt, jumping from one scapegoat to the next. But that's not going to solve anything.
This discussion is not the first discussion about "evil" ballgroups. I recommend reading up on the older ones. Because there you will find enough proof that ballgroups are not invincible. They can look strong when their enemies just run after them like an army of lemmings. And some of them look crazy op in their youtube montages. But ballgroups have plenty of weaknesses and are useless in a lot of situations.
Instead of asking to nerf everything that's problematic for your personal playstyle, you could try to learn how to fight them with another setup. Because it can be very satisfying to quickly log on another build and kill a group in 1 second, when your alliance got farmed by them for an hour.4 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Sorry, but your claim that your small group regularly takes down organized ball groups is simply not believeable. It sounds more like you don't really PvP much in Cyrodiil at all.
And react has clearly shown in this thread how Four Fingers claims are not factually supported as well.
Those of us that play ESO solely for the PvP and spend virtually our entire play time in Cyrodiil know what's going on.
Several have posted here how strategy and such lead to success against the so-called ball groups. It is more than just two people who make such claims that a skilled group can overcome the so-called ball groups. Not worried about what others think as I am pleased I run with a group that can get the job done.
Below is a video of a small group taking down a ball group. It is solid proof of what myself, @Four_Fingers, and others here have said about how a skilled group, using strategy, can take down a ball group.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCxiyj_MkJQ
Have a good day.
0 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.
Agree.
AvA/WvW type of PvP is designed for larger groups.
Smaller groups that are well organized with good leadership can take down the larger groups but a group of random pugs or a group that is not well organized is likely to get a free trip to a nearby keep. That is not due to a poor design.
I will says this thing one more time because people seems/want to not understand
No one asked to destroy group play, no one said the organized group should not be better then randoms, all that we want is to put a limit on broken mechancns. Healing stacking is a totally broken mechanic in pvp.
Organized groups shoudl relay on their organization and skill to tackle larger groups and not on a broken mechanic.
@RetPing
I agree that groups are not the issue; If there is a skill that is causing an issue with performance and such the prevent other groups from defeating them outside of the group being well organized and playing well then it should be adjusted.
However, there are two strong points to be made.
First is that every set and skill added to the game that seemed to be group busters have been great additions for these larger groups to use. Such changes backfire.
Second, the small group I run with when I enter Cyrodill has no issue with taking down large groups. Sure, we lose sometimes but we often prevail and defeat these so-called "ball groups". We are well organized and slot the skills we are asked to use. Our commanders have a great perception of the action around us and we follow their commands.
If groups are defeating them then what is the problem?
Sorry, but your claim that your small group regularly takes down organized ball groups is simply not believeable. It sounds more like you don't really PvP much in Cyrodiil at all.
And react has clearly shown in this thread how Four Fingers claims are not factually supported as well.
Those of us that play ESO solely for the PvP and spend virtually our entire play time in Cyrodiil know what's going on.
Several have posted here how strategy and such lead to success against the so-called ball groups. It is more than just two people who make such claims that a skilled group can overcome the so-called ball groups. Not worried about what others think as I am pleased I run with a group that can get the job done.
Below is a video of a small group taking down a ball group. It is solid proof of what myself, @Four_Fingers, and others here have said about how a skilled group, using strategy, can take down a ball group.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCxiyj_MkJQ
Have a good day.
This isn't a ball group, it's an uncoordinated zerg during midyear mayhem that was killed by one single low level popping and killing everybody around them with plague. Could have even been an NPC plaguebreak, this was before that was removed and NPC plague damage wasn't halved by battlespirit.
I've played with some of the best groups in the game on PC NA, and with a top tier group on PC EU. You cannot fight a proper organized 12 man with less than 8-10 skilled and coordinated people. I'm not suggesting that you should be able to, but citing this clip of deltia in midyear mayhem as evidence that you can fight an actual coordinated 12 man who are abusing the heal stacking mechanic is laughable. I'll drop a video below that is 10+ minutes of me doing the same thing with 2-3 people. It's not comparable to fighting a ball group.
Maybe you're confusing "ball group" with "zerg"? There is a distinction.
Anyways, HOT stacking is broken and needs to be limited. Really is a shame to see so many people here defending it either dishonestly, or just without an understanding of how it works.
https://youtu.be/yPHMIgGM3Ws?si=-Z-bb9yxxFj79AVa Edited by React on 13 January 2024 01:00@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
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dcrush✭✭✭✭✭Right now on PC NA GH, multiple EP and DC ballgroups are running around together in circles inside AD keeps causing massive lag. My fps drops by 50% whenever they show up and my toon no longer moves normally, instead it jumps forward in bits. What a fun way to play the game. /s2