Ball groups are killing Cyrodiil PvP

Scaletho

Those skills/sets that allow endless sustain and endless damage in huge groups are killing any meaning to do PvP. There is no hand-to-hand or siege battles anymore; only huge groups doing a lot of DMG around and impossible to fight against. Is this ESO "pvp"? This lame farming that exclude anyone that don't belong to the "inner circle"?

THIS IS LAME, ZOS.

Do you wanna test pvp and improve it? Remove ball groups and allow the real fun happen! YOU create the conditions for ball groups, and you can end this damn garbage.

wth...

Wycks

They are killing the game on more ways then one.

1. Completely degrading the player experaince.
2. Completely degrading the server performance


It's unreal at this point that ZOS has not implemented a limit on balls group size and stack spamming spells/procs just from a performance perspective. At least have a server that limits group size to no more than 8 and limits some of the insane ability/gear stacking.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's about Cyrodiil.

Thank you for your understanding

Galeriano

It's really hard to balance zergs because You can't change how people behave and people will always preffer to reach for a low hanging fruit which zeging is compared to small scale.

IZZEFlameLash

Just accept that you are never gonna not see any organized group in a MMO setting that features AvA.

Amottica

Ball groups can be taken down by much smaller groups that are well organized. The better skilled the group and leader is the better their chances of success. A group of random pugs will find such groups challenging. Cyrodiil was designed for group vs group fighting so this makes a lot of sense.

mmtaniac

Lags are from one thing. People are have too much defense and not die. Every defense passives like undeath or other % damage reduction are problem to server performance. Only % defense should be major and minor protection + armor other % redction are problem. There was one patch when sieges deal absurd damage and people already die from them and lags server performance was much better at this time. People need die on Cyrodiil for better performance. Current game offer too much defense possibilities for small sacriface.

TankHealz2015

Love to see more skills added to the assault/support skill lines.

Specifically focused on siege:
Aim faster
Deploy/recover siege faster
Other creative options..

Four_Fingers

Always confusing mindless zergs with organized groups. smh
Ball groups are not huge groups, 12 max usually running 6 to 8 players.
Get smart group up!

abakzn

Ball groups actually runs as much as they like with discord communication. I crash / freeze when a ball group arrives.

Four_Fingers

That is a zerg, not a group.
How come the "ball" group doesn't crash?

Starlight_Knight

There's an AD ball group on PC EU now with hammer, in the keep they are farming in its 7fps with 555 ping with 10 seconds for skills things to go off, and i've just been kicked and cant log back in..

Zama666

What @Amottica said! Agree!!!!

And I like working with others to take down ball groups or wear them down.

xFocused

abakzn wrote: »

Ball groups actually runs as much as they like with discord communication. I crash / freeze when a ball group arrives.

My ball group actually crashes more when we're running into zergs of 40+ players. When we fight other 12 man groups there's no problems. Sounds like it's another server performance issue instead of blaming groups, lol

NordSwordnBoard

If there was a naked campaign, no sets, there would still be ball groups.

gronoxvx

Scaletho wrote: »

Those skills/sets that allow endless sustain and endless damage in huge groups are killing any meaning to do PvP. There is no hand-to-hand or siege battles anymore; only huge groups doing a lot of DMG around and impossible to fight against. Is this ESO "pvp"? This lame farming that exclude anyone that don't belong to the "inner circle"?

THIS IS LAME, ZOS.

Do you wanna test pvp and improve it? Remove ball groups and allow the real fun happen! YOU create the conditions for ball groups, and you can end this damn garbage.

wth...

Our ball group dc's more whenever we come up against a zerg or when the servers stack due to the hammer appearing. Ball groups arent the entire reason performance is crap. Lol. Zerging in general and spaghetti coding from zos is much worse.

IZZEFlameLash

gronoxvx wrote: »

Scaletho wrote: »

Those skills/sets that allow endless sustain and endless damage in huge groups are killing any meaning to do PvP. There is no hand-to-hand or siege battles anymore; only huge groups doing a lot of DMG around and impossible to fight against. Is this ESO "pvp"? This lame farming that exclude anyone that don't belong to the "inner circle"?

THIS IS LAME, ZOS.

Do you wanna test pvp and improve it? Remove ball groups and allow the real fun happen! YOU create the conditions for ball groups, and you can end this damn garbage.

wth...

Our ball group dc's more whenever we come up against a zerg or when the servers stack due to the hammer appearing. Ball groups arent the entire reason performance is crap. Lol. Zerging in general and spaghetti coding from zos is much worse.

I'd just say spaghetti coding unable to handle the combat that they advertised is the issue. Or they need real server hardwares.

CrazyKitty

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

If there was a naked campaign, no sets, there would still be ball groups.

Naked ball groups???

Minnesinger

The only working solution would be the solo Cyrodiil where grouping is disallowed. But, like with the no proc sets Cyrodiil, is that it will likely end up to be a ghost town.

Four_Fingers

Or make grouping required.

Aerenthir

The only problem I see now compared to before with the ball groups is due to the incredibly lowered population cap.

Ball groups have existed for years. Few years ago, it was not that much of a problem because they would get swarmed and killed eventually.

Now there are several ball groups and not enough "pugs" or solo players that can properly swarm them. 15 pugs will never be able to quickly kill a 12 man ball group ....


Few years ago when the party cap was 24, thats how many people the ball groups were running and they were still getting killed by 40-50 people ( Eventually )

Now it's just sad, if you stand to the side and watch. 12 people ball group does their push to kill 5-6 pugs ( at best ) and continues to run away while building their resources.

OtarTheMad

I said it in another thread and I’ll say it here too. The issue isn’t just ball groups, it’s spamming spells in a small tight area over and over that is just one of the real issues. It causes lag. Whether the group doing it is ball groups, faction stacks (which is a whole other issue), regular organized group or randomly solos in the same spot. It’s just that ball groups so this activity the most.

Galeriano

What is the real issue that is killing PvP is power creep. Especially while in zerg You can be extremly effective with just 2-3 buttons mashed almost brainlesly. Everything that is strong becomes increasingly stronger when used by zergs and funnily enough even items that are supposed to help against zergs share the same faith.

Free dmg, easy sustain and crosshealing are causing fights to last forever because the same group of people (often not that organised) that would be quickly wiped few years ago now will hold their groud effectively and even be able to push. And if fight lasts forever and people are able to spam stuff brainlesly it will eventually cause server to start choking.

Also people realising how beneficial it is to be in a larger group will never try to do something on side and they will be always heading towards the biggest fight on the map, so they can just spam stuff and be rewarded way more than they would while trying something smaller somwhere else.

JdiDoe

well from what i just saw during this test event. pc eu main server. ball groups (BGr) dont much fight for their alliance its just ap farm. no ppl in Cyro so they just run in distance from each other by the same route and never hit opposite grp, pretty sure they are communicate like for sure. and what is more worse their communication creates 2 alliances work as one against 3d.
when BGr approaching lags comes up and shines everyone in area, and i never saw disconnected BDr never, whileplayers was booted from server/crashed etc/

[Snip]

also i saw real Gamemaster only once at the start of game anyone from @ZOS_ can tell us did you took part in that event playing on EU toon? is this correct communication you was looking previuosly @ZOS_GinaBruno ?

[Edited for Baiting/Conspiracy Theories]

Crown

Galeriano wrote: »

What is the real issue that is killing PvP is power creep. Especially while in zerg You can be extremly effective with just 2-3 buttons mashed almost brainlesly

If you think that spamming a few buttons makes you perform in a ball group, you are sadly mistaken. I challenge anyone to join a min/max ball and try to be competitive with the regular players by spamming 2-3 buttons. You'll probably output half of what another players does at the very most.

• Healers should be casting 3-4 radiating regen every 10 seconds, but they're also casting buffs on cooldown cycles, skills to proc sets on cooldown cycles, burst healing when big damage is incoming, and support skills as needed.
• Damage dealers may seem like they're spamming Steel Tornado, but they're also timing their shalks and proxies perfectly to the leader's calls, keeping buffs up on cooldown cycles, and burst healing on extracation or as needed.
• Supports have to position perfectly to maintain buffs on everyone (such as running through the Arcanist's Zena disc), or apply synergies (such as DK dropping a damage orb synergy, talons, and shifting banners).
• All ball group members maintain a very high level of awareness to stay in/out of positions depending on what they're doing and/or planning next. Being even 5 meters off from where some should be can reduce the overall raid's performance significantly.

A few of us stream for others in Discord every raid (Monday and Friday 7-9pm eastern). I've also posted many videos demonstrating a lot more than 2-3 buttons being spammed. You're welcome to come watch us anytime and learn how a ball group really works.

CameraBeardThePirate

Crown wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

What is the real issue that is killing PvP is power creep. Especially while in zerg You can be extremly effective with just 2-3 buttons mashed almost brainlesly

If you think that spamming a few buttons makes you perform in a ball group, you are sadly mistaken. I challenge anyone to join a min/max ball and try to be competitive with the regular players by spamming 2-3 buttons. You'll probably output half of what another players does at the very most.

• Healers should be casting 3-4 radiating regen every 10 seconds, but they're also casting buffs on cooldown cycles, skills to proc sets on cooldown cycles, burst healing when big damage is incoming, and support skills as needed.
• Damage dealers may seem like they're spamming Steel Tornado, but they're also timing their shalks and proxies perfectly to the leader's calls, keeping buffs up on cooldown cycles, and burst healing on extracation or as needed.
• Supports have to position perfectly to maintain buffs on everyone (such as running through the Arcanist's Zena disc), or apply synergies (such as DK dropping a damage orb synergy, talons, and shifting banners).
• All ball group members maintain a very high level of awareness to stay in/out of positions depending on what they're doing and/or planning next. Being even 5 meters off from where some should be can reduce the overall raid's performance significantly.

A few of us stream for others in Discord every raid (Monday and Friday 7-9pm eastern). I've also posted many videos demonstrating a lot more than 2-3 buttons being spammed. You're welcome to come watch us anytime and learn how a ball group really works.

The person you're replying to specifically said zerg, not ball group.

Four_Fingers

Yeah but most people that complain and just pass the same old misinformation don't even know what a ball group is.

Durham

I know what a ball group is.

#1 Ball groups are very organized in the fact they take advantage of game breaking mechanics like stacking heals, keep in mind a ton of the heals are smart heals. Groups are going to stack in a ball because that is where the heals are.
#2 Ball groups allways going to ball up so they effectivily stack damage.
#3 Ball groups are always going to ball up for speed and other group damage mitigation/enhancements. Yes speed is a huge group mitigation (Keeps siege and players from hitting you)
#4 Ball groups are always going to ball up because its to hard to assist on targets in a zerg. Ball groups are easier to manage when you have people stack on crown.
#5 Ballgroup are always going to out perform because they are going to be more organized. I dont like the playstyle but it is what it is.

There are also levels of Ball groups and advanced ball groups are going to be extreamily detailed to roles and specific sets and health requirements. Also timing is always important and you have to listen and listen well.

Large groups are needed imo because the learning curve for small man play is pretty severe its much easier to jump in a large ball group guild and learn to PVP from veterans that have played all aspects of the game , that way they can become succeful and slowy work into the small setup scale battles. Ball groups are needed in this game but they need to be brought into line.

1. Easy fixes in PVP stop spells from stacking (healing) Targeted AOE burst heals would be fine. (No heal over time stacking)
2. Remove group speed from PVP there is no need for this speed major expedition is everywhere now.
3. Limited use of Siege shields (only so many per keep)
4. Eliminate pull sets from PVP ( This should only be use in PVE)
5. Reduce AOE Damage vs Single Target damage.
6. Class balance need to be looked at in PVP. (AGAIN)

PVP needs more expansive ruleset differences then PVE. This is a change that should have been implimented years ago. We need constant assessments of PVP performance and we need a team of people. PVP in this game could be the best in the industry if ZOS could see it. I have been PVPing for 10 years in this game and I would love to see it expand and grow.

Today to many people log into Cyrodil and log out because they are not successful.

RaikaNA

I have a great idea for you guys complaining about ballgroups.. give up your proc sets and head on over to Ravenwatch. you would be surprised how calm it is in there... no more vicious deaths... no DC... no unkillable ball groups. NO hammer.. Just give it a try

All it takes is for you to surrender your proc sets

OBJnoob

RaikaNA wrote: »

I have a great idea for you guys complaining about ballgroups.. give up your proc sets and head on over to Ravenwatch. you would be surprised how calm it is in there... no more vicious deaths... no DC... no unkillable ball groups. NO hammer.. Just give it a try

All it takes is for you to surrender your proc sets

People don't honestly want to play without all that though. They want to crutch on what they crutch on while complaining about what other people crutch on. And they LIKE the big groups that don't know what they're doing-- they can't really find those in RW. They just don't like the big groups that do know what they're doing.

4 people wrecking 12 is skill. 12 wrecking 4 is unbalanced and exploitative. Haven't you heard?

"End-game" PvPers want to have access to everything the game provides. Except of course for cross-healing.

TechMaybeHic

I'm starting to flip on this. I dislike ball groups because I feel they get to where you have to run the exact same way almost to fight a good one. Not just coordinated; but coordinated in the same way.

Yet without a ball group present; the factions have proven to run in full stacks.

Feels it's either hump a tower small man, ball groups, or full faction stacks. Little in between